Do you even read what you write before posting? If what they are doing is legal then they aren't dodging anything.
I've already been over this, "Dodging" doesn't imply illegality, it just implies avoidance. The LA Dodgers aren't named that because they're a bunch of cheats who break the rules, they're named it to imply they are nimble and get around their opponents. While is a pretty accurate description of what Apple does regarding tax authorities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Realistic
Show us proof to your baseless allegations on their international profits.
You again readily admit that what they do is legal, so shut f up and crawl back under your rock.
What allegations? That they don't pay much tax? I think it's you who need to get out from under your rock, as this is very widely reported, and easily deducible from Apple's own public accounting.
Don't you take every legal deduction on your taxes every year? Thought so, so using your logic you are dodging taxes also.
Are you not reading the thread?
Even if I did take pains to ensure I claimed every legal deduction I'm entitled to, that's not the same thing as what Apple are doing. Tax deductions are offered for very specific purposes and are part of the normal system of tax (I'm sure there may be exceptions to this, but they're really not important to the point I'm making). What Apple is doing in Ireland, by "registering" the international operation there, but not "controlling" it, and thereby avoiding paying any significant corporation tax on international profits anywhere, is well outside the bounds of the normal system. It's still legal, but it's been twisted to something quite outside its intention.
They have deliberately structured their company to misrepresent economic activity for tax purposes, and thereby avoid, or "dodge", tax. And not, I personally do no do anything even remotely like that. Deductions are not remotely like that.
Crikey, are we going to go through all the possible dodges I might have committed in my life? No, I have never taken a trip to France/Belgium solely to stock up on booze. I don't think I've ever bought anything from duty free that I didn't have the intention of consuming then and there.
Even if I did take pains to ensure I claimed every legal deduction I'm entitled to, that's not the same thing as what Apple are doing. Tax deductions are offered for very specific purposes and are part of the normal system of tax (I'm sure there may be exceptions to this, but they're really not important to the point I'm making). What Apple is doing in Ireland, by "registering" the international operation there, but not "controlling" it, and thereby avoiding paying any significant corporation tax on international profits anywhere, is well outside the bounds of the normal system. It's still legal, but it's been twisted to something quite outside its intention.
They have deliberately structured their company to misrepresent economic activity for tax purposes, and thereby avoid, or "dodge", tax. And not, I personally do no do anything even remotely like that. Deductions are not remotely like that.
It has been that way for years and used by many corporations so if it wasn't intended to be that way then the politicians must be rather stupid to not have changed the tax code. You are of the mindset that Apple is unethical and different from all the other corporations doing the exact same thing. Pointless debate so I"ll just block you to avoid all your tax rants.
I've never said that Apple is different from any other comparable companies in their tax arrangements, or that this is anything particularly new, I've just been talking about Apple because (in case you haven't noticed) this is an Apple-focussed message board. I also don't dispute that politicians should have made changes to prevent this a long time ago.
But fine, block me, it seems like the beneficiary of this exchange was only ever going to be you, so it's your loss.
These threads always cycle round the same comments passing blame between Apple and the government and equating a company making ~$40b per year to individuals making thousands.
It's legal to own a flamethrower in the US. Let's say every single person goes out and buys one and walks around with it, whose fault is it? The government isn't promoting the idea of everyone carrying a flamethrower by not writing a law to prevent it happening. Laws are often reactionary in that after harm is established, laws are written to prevent future harm.
The law that governs business expects every company to pay a fair tax rate to maintain healthy competition. This means a percentage, not a fixed value. It is seen as moral to pay taxes. This is why Tim is happy to exaggerate how much corporation tax Apple pays in the US because the moral thing is what you want everyone else to think you're doing. If Tim thinks it's commendable to be paying 10x the corporation tax in the US vs the EU then why is it not commendable to pay that rate in non-US countries?
Going to the extent of making a company with no tax jurisdiction is exploiting flaws in international law. There is no single government wholly to blame here. What's not expected is for companies to purposely cause harm, they are expected to behave like responsible citizens who don't go out and buy flamethrowers just because they can.
It's not like they can't afford it. Apple has $120b in assets. If their EU portion was 40%, they'd be due about $12b. I think Apple said they'd saved $9-12b in taxes over the years from this. This would leave them with over $100b in assets. Apple spent $12b in a matter of weeks buying back stock.
Apple can actually be made to pay despite acting according to the law but against its intent. There's another case going on just now about an investment fund called Icebreaker partnerships:
The courts have ruled that the investment was a tax avoidance scheme and they are now forcing the 1,000 wealthy investors to pay hefty tax bills.
Nobody likes paying taxes but there is a need for a stable infrastructure that needs to be funded and the people who need the tax breaks least shouldn't be the ones to get the breaks. The taxes go to benefit you. Just because you only see the incompetent politicians, the spending they report is where most of the money goes. $3.5t out of $6.3t is going to the elderly, the sick and young people. Would people prefer their elderly parents/grandparents move in with them, that they'd have to pay high fees to give their kids a basic education? I doubt it so why complain when Apple and other companies are being made to pay what they can easily afford at rates smaller local companies are made to pay?
I've already been over this, "Dodging" doesn't imply illegality, it just implies avoidance. The LA Dodgers aren't named that because they're a bunch of cheats who break the rules, they're named it to imply they are nimble and get around their opponents. While is a pretty accurate description of what Apple does regarding tax authorities.
No, the Dodgers were named that as when they were in Brooklyn, the residents use to dodge trolleys and became so skilled at that so the team honored its fans.
I don't know what the laws were back then but it was probably as legal as jay walking.
What does that mean, they trying to say that Ireland is extracting less tax from Apple than other company so they are some how aiding Apple. State aid is when the state provides money to a company to help them compete in the market place. I highly doubt Ireland is doing that for Apple.
With that said, I work for a company which we compete in the EU in a number of countries and some countries we do well, in others not so well, The ones we do not do well in is due to the fact that country promotes company to buy from in country companies. It would like the US giving companies tax incentives to buy american made only. Also, just look at Airbus, they get so many incentives to use EU member companies to build the planes. It such a joke they build the wings in one country and ship the thing through towns on rivers and such just to get the wing to the main factory.
Image if Boeing was building wings in the mid west and then ship them through small towns in the US just to get them to the west coast. The is all a dog an pony show in the EU and I bet you that they will fine Apple at the end of this. If people have not notice, the governments of the EU and the US have been using fines as a way to close wholes in the uncontrolled spending.
I disagree, but I take the point that it could be ambiguous. But I think that reinforces my point that Apple are using language to try and "dodge" the issue, rather than facing it head on.
If they were wrongly accused of something, I think making a statement about their innocence is about as direct as they can get with facing the issue. What would an innocent Apple do that would face it more head on, in your view?
No, the Dodgers were named that as when they were in Brooklyn, the residents use to dodge trolleys and became so skilled at that so the team honored its fans.
I don't know what the laws were back then but it was probably as legal as jay walking.
I'm from Brooklyn, and I never knew that way back when people from Brooklyn were often referred to as 'trolley dodgers'. Learn something new every day. Thanks.
Of course they'll deny the claims. Of course they'll point to all the legal behaviors. But of course the system is being taken advantage of by big corporations and there needs to be more control to stop them defeating the spirit of the tax laws via their letter.
BTW: Militaries DO commit murder during war. Open a book now and then.
except it is the same thing as Apple is doing.
They are taking every legal deduction they can.
No. Setting up a shell company in Ireland to funnel profits out of the normal tax system is not the same as taking a deduction. Both may be legal, but they are far from being the same. Making a sandwich and cheating on my wife are both legal, but they are not the same.
Do you even read what you write before posting? If what they are doing is legal then they aren't dodging anything.
I've already been over this, "Dodging" doesn't imply illegality, it just implies avoidance. The LA Dodgers aren't named that because they're a bunch of cheats who break the rules, they're named it to imply they are nimble and get around their opponents. While is a pretty accurate description of what Apple does regarding tax authorities.
<span style="line-height:1.4em;">Show us proof to your baseless allegations on their international profits.</span>
You again readily admit that what they do is legal, so shut f up and crawl back under your rock.
What allegations? That they don't pay much tax? I think it's you who need to get out from under your rock, as this is very widely reported, and easily deducible from Apple's own public accounting.
You keep saying that dodging implies avoidance and not evasion. It implies both, but most importantly, it implies that Apple are in the wrong. You sound like that judge who pre-empted the verdict in the Amazon case by saying that Apple were probably guilty, even before the case had started.
Maybe the EU should investigate itself for the tax laws it is responsible for passing. Apple is simply following the law in a way to minimize their tax burden. Investigate the politicians and the lobbyists, not the companies that happen to save a lot in taxes simply for following the laws these (and other) clowns passed.
Comments
Do you even read what you write before posting? If what they are doing is legal then they aren't dodging anything.
I've already been over this, "Dodging" doesn't imply illegality, it just implies avoidance. The LA Dodgers aren't named that because they're a bunch of cheats who break the rules, they're named it to imply they are nimble and get around their opponents. While is a pretty accurate description of what Apple does regarding tax authorities.
Show us proof to your baseless allegations on their international profits.
You again readily admit that what they do is legal, so shut f up and crawl back under your rock.
What allegations? That they don't pay much tax? I think it's you who need to get out from under your rock, as this is very widely reported, and easily deducible from Apple's own public accounting.
Don't you take every legal deduction on your taxes every year? Thought so, so using your logic you are dodging taxes also.
Are you not reading the thread?
Even if I did take pains to ensure I claimed every legal deduction I'm entitled to, that's not the same thing as what Apple are doing. Tax deductions are offered for very specific purposes and are part of the normal system of tax (I'm sure there may be exceptions to this, but they're really not important to the point I'm making). What Apple is doing in Ireland, by "registering" the international operation there, but not "controlling" it, and thereby avoiding paying any significant corporation tax on international profits anywhere, is well outside the bounds of the normal system. It's still legal, but it's been twisted to something quite outside its intention.
They have deliberately structured their company to misrepresent economic activity for tax purposes, and thereby avoid, or "dodge", tax. And not, I personally do no do anything even remotely like that. Deductions are not remotely like that.
Not intentionally I don't. I buy local and from small retailers most of the time, precisely because I think tax avoidance is sleazy.
And you never went on the ferry to France/Belgium and bought something in the duty free shop before that loophole was closed ?Crikey, are we going to go through all the possible dodges I might have committed in my life? No, I have never taken a trip to France/Belgium solely to stock up on booze. I don't think I've ever bought anything from duty free that I didn't have the intention of consuming then and there.
Are you not reading the thread?
Even if I did take pains to ensure I claimed every legal deduction I'm entitled to, that's not the same thing as what Apple are doing. Tax deductions are offered for very specific purposes and are part of the normal system of tax (I'm sure there may be exceptions to this, but they're really not important to the point I'm making). What Apple is doing in Ireland, by "registering" the international operation there, but not "controlling" it, and thereby avoiding paying any significant corporation tax on international profits anywhere, is well outside the bounds of the normal system. It's still legal, but it's been twisted to something quite outside its intention.
They have deliberately structured their company to misrepresent economic activity for tax purposes, and thereby avoid, or "dodge", tax. And not, I personally do no do anything even remotely like that. Deductions are not remotely like that.
It has been that way for years and used by many corporations so if it wasn't intended to be that way then the politicians must be rather stupid to not have changed the tax code. You are of the mindset that Apple is unethical and different from all the other corporations doing the exact same thing. Pointless debate so I"ll just block you to avoid all your tax rants.
I've never said that Apple is different from any other comparable companies in their tax arrangements, or that this is anything particularly new, I've just been talking about Apple because (in case you haven't noticed) this is an Apple-focussed message board. I also don't dispute that politicians should have made changes to prevent this a long time ago.
But fine, block me, it seems like the beneficiary of this exchange was only ever going to be you, so it's your loss.
It's legal to own a flamethrower in the US. Let's say every single person goes out and buys one and walks around with it, whose fault is it? The government isn't promoting the idea of everyone carrying a flamethrower by not writing a law to prevent it happening. Laws are often reactionary in that after harm is established, laws are written to prevent future harm.
The law that governs business expects every company to pay a fair tax rate to maintain healthy competition. This means a percentage, not a fixed value. It is seen as moral to pay taxes. This is why Tim is happy to exaggerate how much corporation tax Apple pays in the US because the moral thing is what you want everyone else to think you're doing. If Tim thinks it's commendable to be paying 10x the corporation tax in the US vs the EU then why is it not commendable to pay that rate in non-US countries?
Going to the extent of making a company with no tax jurisdiction is exploiting flaws in international law. There is no single government wholly to blame here. What's not expected is for companies to purposely cause harm, they are expected to behave like responsible citizens who don't go out and buy flamethrowers just because they can.
It's not like they can't afford it. Apple has $120b in assets. If their EU portion was 40%, they'd be due about $12b. I think Apple said they'd saved $9-12b in taxes over the years from this. This would leave them with over $100b in assets. Apple spent $12b in a matter of weeks buying back stock.
Apple can actually be made to pay despite acting according to the law but against its intent. There's another case going on just now about an investment fund called Icebreaker partnerships:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/10/take-that-stars-face-the-music-after-tax-avoidance-ruling
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2627566/Tax-dodger-Gary-Barlows-20million-property-empire-thats-Take-That-owe.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/celebrities-hid-340m-in-icebreaker-tax-avoidance-scheme-used-by-gary-barlow-9367454.html
The courts have ruled that the investment was a tax avoidance scheme and they are now forcing the 1,000 wealthy investors to pay hefty tax bills.
Nobody likes paying taxes but there is a need for a stable infrastructure that needs to be funded and the people who need the tax breaks least shouldn't be the ones to get the breaks. The taxes go to benefit you. Just because you only see the incompetent politicians, the spending they report is where most of the money goes. $3.5t out of $6.3t is going to the elderly, the sick and young people. Would people prefer their elderly parents/grandparents move in with them, that they'd have to pay high fees to give their kids a basic education? I doubt it so why complain when Apple and other companies are being made to pay what they can easily afford at rates smaller local companies are made to pay?
No, the Dodgers were named that as when they were in Brooklyn, the residents use to dodge trolleys and became so skilled at that so the team honored its fans.
I don't know what the laws were back then but it was probably as legal as jay walking.
This state is a joke
What does that mean, they trying to say that Ireland is extracting less tax from Apple than other company so they are some how aiding Apple. State aid is when the state provides money to a company to help them compete in the market place. I highly doubt Ireland is doing that for Apple.
With that said, I work for a company which we compete in the EU in a number of countries and some countries we do well, in others not so well, The ones we do not do well in is due to the fact that country promotes company to buy from in country companies. It would like the US giving companies tax incentives to buy american made only. Also, just look at Airbus, they get so many incentives to use EU member companies to build the planes. It such a joke they build the wings in one country and ship the thing through towns on rivers and such just to get the wing to the main factory.
Image if Boeing was building wings in the mid west and then ship them through small towns in the US just to get them to the west coast. The is all a dog an pony show in the EU and I bet you that they will fine Apple at the end of this. If people have not notice, the governments of the EU and the US have been using fines as a way to close wholes in the uncontrolled spending.
I disagree, but I take the point that it could be ambiguous. But I think that reinforces my point that Apple are using language to try and "dodge" the issue, rather than facing it head on.
If they were wrongly accused of something, I think making a statement about their innocence is about as direct as they can get with facing the issue. What would an innocent Apple do that would face it more head on, in your view?
I'm from Brooklyn, and I never knew that way back when people from Brooklyn were often referred to as 'trolley dodgers'. Learn something new every day. Thanks.
Taxes are something Americans just dont like. One of the chief reasons this country was formed.
Yeah, taxes = bad tyrannical government (/s). There was this thing about representation that you seem to be forgetting about...
Yeah, taxes = bad tyrannical government (/s). There was this thing about representation that you seem to be forgetting about...
"Taxation without representation"... I remember.
BTW: Militaries DO commit murder during war. Open a book now and then.
"Taxation without representation"... I remember.
Then you're older than you look.
Are you not reading the thread?
Even if I did take pains to ensure I claimed every legal deduction I'm entitled to, that's not the same thing as what Apple are doing.
except it is the same thing as Apple is doing.
They are taking every legal deduction they can.
You keep saying that dodging implies avoidance and not evasion. It implies both, but most importantly, it implies that Apple are in the wrong. You sound like that judge who pre-empted the verdict in the Amazon case by saying that Apple were probably guilty, even before the case had started.
Back to your troubled waters.