Oh I don't know, I think there are a lot in the Eu Parliament who are a lot more pissed than you obviously think:
Quote:
Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) in a plenary session in Strasbourg voted in favor of a section of the resolution that called on the Commission to "give consideration to all the instruments at their disposal in discussions and negotiations with the U.S. [...] including the possible suspension of the passenger name record (PNR) and terrorist finance tracking program (TFTP) agreements."
Should the Commission decide it necessary to suspend the data sharing agreement of passenger details — including personal and sensitive individual data — it could ultimately lead to the grounding of flights between the EU and the U.S.
They really can not ignore an open declaration by a US court that US laws hold supremacy in the EU. They might well be slow to act, but I don't see how they could afford not to.
Oh I don't know, I think there are a lot in the Eu Parliament who are a lot more pissed than you obviously think:
Quote:
Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) in a plenary session in Strasbourg voted in favor of a section of the resolution that called on the Commission to "give consideration to all the instruments at their disposal in discussions and negotiations with the U.S. [...] including the possible suspension of the passenger name record (PNR) and terrorist finance tracking program (TFTP) agreements."
Should the Commission decide it necessary to suspend the data sharing agreement of passenger details — including personal and sensitive individual data — it could ultimately lead to the grounding of flights between the EU and the U.S.
They really can not ignore an open declaration by a US court that US laws hold supremacy in the EU. They might well be slow to act, but I don't see how they could afford not to.
I have no doubt at all that there are plenty of pissed-off lawmakers in the EU. With the recent round of elections, there are probably even more.
But I am very skeptical that they will act. I hope I am wrong, but I think I am not. We'll see.
I'm all for that. Then no EU citizen would visit the US since their credit cards would not be valid here because companies in the US would not be allowed to store the transaction nor would EU citizens be able to order anything online from the US either, like software. Totally cool with that are you?.
Bye-bye EU tech companies.
Yes, I am totally for that. Are US shareholders going to be pleased that Apple, Microsoft Google etc, might lose access to the EU market entirely? It's a market of 500 million affluent people and is vastly more significant to US tech companies bottom lines than China.
If the US courts want to push this and enforce it. I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents. Goodby every US based tech company - see ya.
Originally Posted by mstone
I'm all for that. Then no EU citizen would visit the US since their credit cards would not be valid here because companies in the US would not be allowed to store the transaction nor would EU citizens be able to order anything online from the US either, like software. Totally cool with that are you?.
Bye-bye EU tech companies.
Seems we've got here a Mexican standoff leading to economic MAD!
cnocbui, the EU losing US tech companies will be like someone losing their brain or their heart; there's no EU computer manufacturer that could fill the void in the public sector left by all those Dell and HP boxes.
mstone, your scenario won't be healthy for VISA, Mastercard, the airlines, Boeing and the American economy.
Businesses on both side of the Atlantic share one thing in common, the need to make money. Governments on both sides need the companies to make money to make the tax that flows into the governments' (and politicians') pots. They're not going to wittingly do anything which severely curtails that.
this judge in contrast has no such consideration or obligation.
His ruling does on the face of it appear to be an overreach.
I can imagine a hypothetical scenario where some court in China demands this American judge's home number and address because the judge has an iPhone, iPhone is made by Apple in China, therefore court has juristriction to demand the address of an American.
If the US allows this judge to overreach then it can equally expect judges from around the world to overreach and spuriously demand info on people living in the US.
The original post I was responding to (from cnocbui above) said: "I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents. Goodby [sic] every US based tech company - see ya."
You guys think that such a ruling is remotely likely? Really?
(Edited to fix a typo).
No I don't.
My initial response to you was prompted by a specific question you asked and not meant to comment on your overall opinion as posted in a few different replies. Your somewhat rude reply back was uncalled for IMO.
Seems we've got here a Mexican standoff leading to economic MAD!
cnocbui, the EU losing US tech companies will be like someone losing their brain or their heart; there's no EU computer manufacturer that could fill the void in the public sector left by all those Dell and HP boxes.
mstone, your scenario won't be healthy for VISA, Mastercard, the airlines, Boeing and the American economy.
Businesses on both side of the Atlantic share one thing in common, the need to make money. Governments on both sides need the companies to make money to make the tax that flows into the governments' (and politicians') pots. They're not going to wittingly do anything which severely curtails that.
this judge in contrast has no such consideration or obligation.
His ruling does on the face of it appear to be an overreach.
I can imagine a hypothetical scenario where some court in China demands this American judge's home number and address because the judge has an iPhone, iPhone is made by Apple in China, therefore court has juristriction to demand the address of an American.
If the US allows this judge to overreach then it can equally expect judges from around the world to overreach and spuriously demand info on people living in the US.
Samsung, Toshiba and a host of Chinese and Taiwanese companies could easily fill the void. You don't think the stuff bought from US tech companies is actually made there do you?
The OS is a bigger issue, as it's the OSs, not the hardware, that is important here. But once again, Samsung have Tizen and would absolutely love the EU market all to itself, as it and Bada are just about the only OSs I know of that didn't originate in the US.
Of course this is all a preposterous MAD scenario, as you mentioned, and there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that matters would be allowed to develop that far. At some point the US court will be told to pull it's head in. That is a foregone conclusion as according to some Princeton researchers, the US is not a democracy, it's an oligarchy and the US government's policies and actions are apparently dictated by the interests of the extremely wealthy, so the best interests of Apple, Microsoft, et al. will hold sway in the end.
Seems we've got here a Mexican standoff leading to economic MAD!
I was just pointing out how ridiculous the idea was, but I don't necessarily see it being MAD. I would be fine with bringing home all our troops from everywhere, which would put Samsung out of business immediately with Kim Jong on the loose, also end participation in NATO, not allowing any visas into the US, kicking out anyone who does not legitimately belong here and preventing ALL illegal entry. Let's see how well civilization in the rest of the world holds up without the US always picking up the tab. Let the rest of the world use GLONASS and pull the US out of the space station as well.
In addition I wouldn't mind if the US went cold turkey on off-shore manufacturing either.
None of that is any more likely to happen than the idiotic suggestion I originally replied to, but in the case of the US, we could handle isolationism better than any other country in the world. Obviously it would not be a wise long term strategy, but it could serve as a blank slate to clean up the disaster that is the current US foreign affairs policy and provide a foundation to rebuild it in a more sensible way. I feel the US gets a lot of bad media just like Apple gets a lot of bad media. Everyone wants to take pot shots at the leader.
The world should be thankful the US decided to give them the Internet, otherwise, they would still be using Fax machines to communicate.
Those are just specific examples against specific companies when they've violated specific laws in the EU. Any court or government would do that. For example, the US has imposed many dozens of such fines on EU companies too.
The original post I was responding to (from cnocbui above) said: "I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents. Goodby [sic] every US based tech company - see ya."
You guys think that such a ruling is remotely likely? Really?
If Google had failed to obey the order (and pay the fine), CNIL would have been allowed by law to seize all assets pertaining to these datas (and as it was gmail and g+ user datas, any google computer was fine) in France, but also to ask all partners of the judiciary help (about 15 members of EU, this includes Ireland) to do so too.
That is nuclear level threat and I doubt they would have gone that far, but Data Protection Laws are very strong in Europe, as well as consumers ones as Apple learned the hard way in Italy, and CNIL has that power. Hell, last year they fined the Police headquarters and Ministery ! And you can both be fined at the national or EU level. Dutch and Spanish equivalent to CNIL found also Google to be in breach of law.
Note that the fine was the max one they were allowed to hand, but there is now discussions about raising that ceiling at least 10x.
Note also that governement has zero power on CNIL which is a judicial independant entity.
The original post I was responding to (from cnocbui above) said: "I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents. Goodby [sic] every US based tech company - see ya."
You guys think that such a ruling is remotely likely? Really?
(Edited to fix a typo).
No I don't.
My initial response to you was prompted by a specific question you asked and not meant to comment on your overall opinion as posted in a few different replies. Your somewhat rude reply back was uncalled for IMO.
No offense, but your initial response to me was completely uncalled for since it was thoroughly irrelevant to the premise of, and question in, my post.
No offense, but your initial response to me was completely uncalled for since it was thoroughly irrelevant to the premise of, and question in, my post.
Irrelevance is equivalent to rudeness in my book.
Then you take offense a little easier than I do. No prob. I guess when some people look for insults they're easy to find whether real or imagined.
Those are just specific examples against specific companies when they've violated specific laws in the EU. Any court or government would do that. For example, the US has imposed many dozens of such fines on EU companies too.
The original post I was responding to (from cnocbui above) said: "I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents. Goodby [sic] every US based tech company - see ya."
You guys think that such a ruling is remotely likely? Really?
If Google had failed to obey the order (and pay the fine), CNIL would have been allowed by law to seize all assets pertaining to these datas (and as it was gmail and g+ user datas, any google computer was fine) in France, but also to ask all partners of the judiciary help (about 15 members of EU, this includes Ireland) to do so too.
That is nuclear level threat and I doubt they would have gone that far, but Data Protection Laws are very strong in Europe, as well as consumers ones as Apple learned the hard way in Italy, and CNIL has that power. Hell, last year they fined the Police headquarters and Ministery ! And you can both be fined at the national or EU level. Dutch and Spanish equivalent to CNIL found also Google to be in breach of law.
Note that the fine was the max one they were allowed to hand, but there is now discussions about raising that ceiling at least 10x.
Note also that governement has zero power on CNIL which is a judicial independant entity.
What I find surprising and maddening is, for all the vaunted data and privacy protection laws and tradition in the EU, where is the coordinated reaction to the NSA snooping?
Despite ample evidence of leaders and companies being spied on, what's the outcome of all the outrage!?
Governments seem to be going too far, too fast; cocky is the nature of the overly successful. Eventually citizenry must wake up the dangers of such powers.
Remember, historically every democracy prior to our age became plutocracies. It seems an almost inevitability, a natural evolution. Chomsky suggests, nay says ’tis so.
What I find surprising and maddening is, for all the vaunted data and privacy protection laws and tradition in the EU, where is the coordinated reaction to the NSA snooping?
Despite ample evidence of leaders and companies being spied on, what's the outcome of all the outrage!?
An EU judicial entity has no power on a US spy outfit, and you are surprised ? Maybe the USA should sweep on their steps first ?
But there is reaction, especially in Germany and Dutch, where steps were taken to forbid intercepts at the ISP level. TAFTA negociations (free trade agreement) were already not in very good shape due to some issues like GMOs and culture exception, but the NSA stuff brought them to a grinding halt.
While I understand the anti-government angst, this article and many of the comments are absolutely misleading. The U.S. government got a search warrant for subscriber email from a U.S. company (Microsoft) for a U.S. investigation. The only reason the government even had to get a search warrant was because Congress passed the ECPA and gave people limited privacy rights in online information - the 4th Amendment has not been held to even protect your online information because, after all, you gave it away to another person! This is not at all like the government kicking in your door.
(As an aside - this process is what we all want. The government went to an actual, live judge and presented its evidence. The judge found there was probable cause to issue the warrant. The Constitution, the Magna Carta, International Law, Agenda 21, and presumably even the Oathkeepers' Manifesto has never required more. All the NSA and over-reaching comments are especially absurd because what all the companies want is simply for the government to have to get a warrant, which here they did!)
Microsoft responded that for reasons having nothing to do with law, they store the content of that subscriber's data in Ireland. The subscriber could be Irish, Microsoft may have moved the data there because it was more convenient, or faster for them or the user to access. They just put it there just because they wanted to. So now the Judge treats Microsoft like any other U.S. entity and says the government is legally making your turn over this information. Microsoft just objects because they arbitrarily moved some of the data to a Dublin data center.
How is that right? Do you think that AppleInsider should be allowed to avoid legal process by merely choosing to use a server in Canada to store their data? They are an American company and follow American laws. Why should they be able to circumvent a normal legal process here based on the location of a server? They have unlimited access to the data - the location of the server is essentially immaterial. Do you really want, say, Yemen to start a new data server business where they promise to refuse all foreign legal process so Microsoft and Google and Apple can store all your data there? Do you U.S. citizens honestly believe that if your ISP randomly decides to store your data elsewhere that you are now protected by that country's privacy laws?
The downside is that even if Microsoft wins here, Congress can (and will have to) simply change the ECPA to only require a subpoena for such information. A subpoena entitles the government to all records "in the control" of the company without regard for where the data is physically located. If you think this will ultimately result in a big win for privacy, you are wrong.
What I find surprising and maddening is, for all the vaunted data and privacy protection laws and tradition in the EU, where is the coordinated reaction to the NSA snooping?
Despite ample evidence of leaders and companies being spied on, what's the outcome of all the outrage!?
An EU judicial entity has no power on a US spy outfit, and you are surprised ? Maybe the USA should sweep on their steps first ?
But there is reaction, especially in Germany and Dutch, where steps were taken to forbid intercepts at the ISP level. TAFTA negociations (free trade agreement) were already not in very good shape due to some issues like GMOs and culture exception, but the NSA stuff brought them to a grinding halt.
Only UK is the US lapdog in this fight, as usual.
I wish it were easy as that. Some EU governments, e.g., France, were found out to be spying on their own citizens in a manner similar to NSA. The UK, a member of the EU, held Greenwald's partner at Heathrow for search and questioning. Spain (or was it Portugal, or both?) was implicated in refusing to refuel the Bolivian president's plane. Other than pouting a lot, Germany has done basically nothing to retaliate against its leader being spied on by the NSA.
At least Brazil had the guts to stand up to the US.
WKISMET, I think your comments are intelligent, reasonable, and helpful, but I personally see this issue as not primarily being about privacy rights but about Microsoft being forced to break Irish law and being subsequently penalized for cooperating with a US investigation. Should the US be in the business of forcing corporations to break the laws of its allies, unless perhaps the law in question were draconian in some way, which this one isn't (eye of the beholder, I realize)?
In this instance, the US federal government should negotiate with the Irish government a grant of immunity to Microsoft or something to that effect.
Perhaps in time the US and EU will standardize their internet privacy rules and surveillance procedures. Perhaps, forthcoming laws and treaties will clarify that it is immaterial in what country data is being stored at any given moment and that the nationality of the corporation that controls the service is what is important...but then so many of these companies are multi-nationals that it must get really complex....
Comments
You apparently have no issues with conversations without context (as with gatorguy).
I do.
Perhaps we will start to see some of the cloud servers of US based tech companies be moved to Europe or to wherever has the safest regulatory climate?
Safest for whom? Al-qaeda?
Good luck. The EU is a gutless wonder.
Oh I don't know, I think there are a lot in the Eu Parliament who are a lot more pissed than you obviously think:
Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) in a plenary session in Strasbourg voted in favor of a section of the resolution that called on the Commission to "give consideration to all the instruments at their disposal in discussions and negotiations with the U.S. [...] including the possible suspension of the passenger name record (PNR) and terrorist finance tracking program (TFTP) agreements."
Should the Commission decide it necessary to suspend the data sharing agreement of passenger details — including personal and sensitive individual data — it could ultimately lead to the grounding of flights between the EU and the U.S.
This issue has been brewing for a while and this exact scenario the EU raised concerns about almost exactly a year ago. I think it is likely to lead them to actually do something. http://www.zdnet.com/amid-nsa-spying-scandal-the-gloves-are-off-for-eus-justice-chief-7000017132/.
They really can not ignore an open declaration by a US court that US laws hold supremacy in the EU. They might well be slow to act, but I don't see how they could afford not to.
Good luck. The EU is a gutless wonder.
Oh I don't know, I think there are a lot in the Eu Parliament who are a lot more pissed than you obviously think:
Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) in a plenary session in Strasbourg voted in favor of a section of the resolution that called on the Commission to "give consideration to all the instruments at their disposal in discussions and negotiations with the U.S. [...] including the possible suspension of the passenger name record (PNR) and terrorist finance tracking program (TFTP) agreements."
Should the Commission decide it necessary to suspend the data sharing agreement of passenger details — including personal and sensitive individual data — it could ultimately lead to the grounding of flights between the EU and the U.S.
This issue has been brewing for a while and this exact scenario the EU raised concerns about almost exactly a year ago. I think it is likely to lead them to actually do something. http://www.zdnet.com/amid-nsa-spying-scandal-the-gloves-are-off-for-eus-justice-chief-7000017132/.
They really can not ignore an open declaration by a US court that US laws hold supremacy in the EU. They might well be slow to act, but I don't see how they could afford not to.
I have no doubt at all that there are plenty of pissed-off lawmakers in the EU. With the recent round of elections, there are probably even more.
But I am very skeptical that they will act. I hope I am wrong, but I think I am not. We'll see.
I'm all for that. Then no EU citizen would visit the US since their credit cards would not be valid here because companies in the US would not be allowed to store the transaction nor would EU citizens be able to order anything online from the US either, like software. Totally cool with that are you?.
Bye-bye EU tech companies.
Yes, I am totally for that. Are US shareholders going to be pleased that Apple, Microsoft Google etc, might lose access to the EU market entirely? It's a market of 500 million affluent people and is vastly more significant to US tech companies bottom lines than China.
Originally Posted by mstone
I'm all for that. Then no EU citizen would visit the US since their credit cards would not be valid here because companies in the US would not be allowed to store the transaction nor would EU citizens be able to order anything online from the US either, like software. Totally cool with that are you?.
Bye-bye EU tech companies.
Seems we've got here a Mexican standoff leading to economic MAD!
cnocbui, the EU losing US tech companies will be like someone losing their brain or their heart; there's no EU computer manufacturer that could fill the void in the public sector left by all those Dell and HP boxes.
mstone, your scenario won't be healthy for VISA, Mastercard, the airlines, Boeing and the American economy.
Businesses on both side of the Atlantic share one thing in common, the need to make money. Governments on both sides need the companies to make money to make the tax that flows into the governments' (and politicians') pots. They're not going to wittingly do anything which severely curtails that.
this judge in contrast has no such consideration or obligation.
His ruling does on the face of it appear to be an overreach.
I can imagine a hypothetical scenario where some court in China demands this American judge's home number and address because the judge has an iPhone, iPhone is made by Apple in China, therefore court has juristriction to demand the address of an American.
If the US allows this judge to overreach then it can equally expect judges from around the world to overreach and spuriously demand info on people living in the US.
No I don't.
My initial response to you was prompted by a specific question you asked and not meant to comment on your overall opinion as posted in a few different replies. Your somewhat rude reply back was uncalled for IMO.
Seems we've got here a Mexican standoff leading to economic MAD!
cnocbui, the EU losing US tech companies will be like someone losing their brain or their heart; there's no EU computer manufacturer that could fill the void in the public sector left by all those Dell and HP boxes.
mstone, your scenario won't be healthy for VISA, Mastercard, the airlines, Boeing and the American economy.
Businesses on both side of the Atlantic share one thing in common, the need to make money. Governments on both sides need the companies to make money to make the tax that flows into the governments' (and politicians') pots. They're not going to wittingly do anything which severely curtails that.
this judge in contrast has no such consideration or obligation.
His ruling does on the face of it appear to be an overreach.
I can imagine a hypothetical scenario where some court in China demands this American judge's home number and address because the judge has an iPhone, iPhone is made by Apple in China, therefore court has juristriction to demand the address of an American.
If the US allows this judge to overreach then it can equally expect judges from around the world to overreach and spuriously demand info on people living in the US.
Samsung, Toshiba and a host of Chinese and Taiwanese companies could easily fill the void. You don't think the stuff bought from US tech companies is actually made there do you?
The OS is a bigger issue, as it's the OSs, not the hardware, that is important here. But once again, Samsung have Tizen and would absolutely love the EU market all to itself, as it and Bada are just about the only OSs I know of that didn't originate in the US.
Of course this is all a preposterous MAD scenario, as you mentioned, and there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that matters would be allowed to develop that far. At some point the US court will be told to pull it's head in. That is a foregone conclusion as according to some Princeton researchers, the US is not a democracy, it's an oligarchy and the US government's policies and actions are apparently dictated by the interests of the extremely wealthy, so the best interests of Apple, Microsoft, et al. will hold sway in the end.
Seems we've got here a Mexican standoff leading to economic MAD!
I was just pointing out how ridiculous the idea was, but I don't necessarily see it being MAD. I would be fine with bringing home all our troops from everywhere, which would put Samsung out of business immediately with Kim Jong on the loose, also end participation in NATO, not allowing any visas into the US, kicking out anyone who does not legitimately belong here and preventing ALL illegal entry. Let's see how well civilization in the rest of the world holds up without the US always picking up the tab. Let the rest of the world use GLONASS and pull the US out of the space station as well.
In addition I wouldn't mind if the US went cold turkey on off-shore manufacturing either.
None of that is any more likely to happen than the idiotic suggestion I originally replied to, but in the case of the US, we could handle isolationism better than any other country in the world. Obviously it would not be a wise long term strategy, but it could serve as a blank slate to clean up the disaster that is the current US foreign affairs policy and provide a foundation to rebuild it in a more sensible way. I feel the US gets a lot of bad media just like Apple gets a lot of bad media. Everyone wants to take pot shots at the leader.
The world should be thankful the US decided to give them the Internet, otherwise, they would still be using Fax machines to communicate.
Those are just specific examples against specific companies when they've violated specific laws in the EU. Any court or government would do that. For example, the US has imposed many dozens of such fines on EU companies too.
The original post I was responding to (from cnocbui above) said: "I would like to see the EU forbid US companies from holding any data relating to EU residents. Goodby [sic] every US based tech company - see ya."
You guys think that such a ruling is remotely likely? Really?
(Edited to fix a typo).
http://www.cnil.fr/english/news-and-events/news/article/the-cnils-sanctions-committee-issues-a-150-000-EUR-monetary-penalty-to-google-inc/
If Google had failed to obey the order (and pay the fine), CNIL would have been allowed by law to seize all assets pertaining to these datas (and as it was gmail and g+ user datas, any google computer was fine) in France, but also to ask all partners of the judiciary help (about 15 members of EU, this includes Ireland) to do so too.
That is nuclear level threat and I doubt they would have gone that far, but Data Protection Laws are very strong in Europe, as well as consumers ones as Apple learned the hard way in Italy, and CNIL has that power. Hell, last year they fined the Police headquarters and Ministery ! And you can both be fined at the national or EU level. Dutch and Spanish equivalent to CNIL found also Google to be in breach of law.
Note that the fine was the max one they were allowed to hand, but there is now discussions about raising that ceiling at least 10x.
Note also that governement has zero power on CNIL which is a judicial independant entity.
No offense, but your initial response to me was completely uncalled for since it was thoroughly irrelevant to the premise of, and question in, my post.
Irrelevance is equivalent to rudeness in my book.
Then you take offense a little easier than I do. No prob. I guess when some people look for insults they're easy to find whether real or imagined.
What I find surprising and maddening is, for all the vaunted data and privacy protection laws and tradition in the EU, where is the coordinated reaction to the NSA snooping?
Despite ample evidence of leaders and companies being spied on, what's the outcome of all the outrage!?
Governments seem to be going too far, too fast; cocky is the nature of the overly successful. Eventually citizenry must wake up the dangers of such powers.
Remember, historically every democracy prior to our age became plutocracies. It seems an almost inevitability, a natural evolution. Chomsky suggests, nay says ’tis so.
What I find surprising and maddening is, for all the vaunted data and privacy protection laws and tradition in the EU, where is the coordinated reaction to the NSA snooping?
Despite ample evidence of leaders and companies being spied on, what's the outcome of all the outrage!?
An EU judicial entity has no power on a US spy outfit, and you are surprised ? Maybe the USA should sweep on their steps first ?
But there is reaction, especially in Germany and Dutch, where steps were taken to forbid intercepts at the ISP level. TAFTA negociations (free trade agreement) were already not in very good shape due to some issues like GMOs and culture exception, but the NSA stuff brought them to a grinding halt.
Only UK is the US lapdog in this fight, as usual.
I meant safest for the corporations who presently are set to be penalized whether they comply or not.
While I understand the anti-government angst, this article and many of the comments are absolutely misleading. The U.S. government got a search warrant for subscriber email from a U.S. company (Microsoft) for a U.S. investigation. The only reason the government even had to get a search warrant was because Congress passed the ECPA and gave people limited privacy rights in online information - the 4th Amendment has not been held to even protect your online information because, after all, you gave it away to another person! This is not at all like the government kicking in your door.
(As an aside - this process is what we all want. The government went to an actual, live judge and presented its evidence. The judge found there was probable cause to issue the warrant. The Constitution, the Magna Carta, International Law, Agenda 21, and presumably even the Oathkeepers' Manifesto has never required more. All the NSA and over-reaching comments are especially absurd because what all the companies want is simply for the government to have to get a warrant, which here they did!)
Microsoft responded that for reasons having nothing to do with law, they store the content of that subscriber's data in Ireland. The subscriber could be Irish, Microsoft may have moved the data there because it was more convenient, or faster for them or the user to access. They just put it there just because they wanted to. So now the Judge treats Microsoft like any other U.S. entity and says the government is legally making your turn over this information. Microsoft just objects because they arbitrarily moved some of the data to a Dublin data center.
How is that right? Do you think that AppleInsider should be allowed to avoid legal process by merely choosing to use a server in Canada to store their data? They are an American company and follow American laws. Why should they be able to circumvent a normal legal process here based on the location of a server? They have unlimited access to the data - the location of the server is essentially immaterial. Do you really want, say, Yemen to start a new data server business where they promise to refuse all foreign legal process so Microsoft and Google and Apple can store all your data there? Do you U.S. citizens honestly believe that if your ISP randomly decides to store your data elsewhere that you are now protected by that country's privacy laws?
The downside is that even if Microsoft wins here, Congress can (and will have to) simply change the ECPA to only require a subpoena for such information. A subpoena entitles the government to all records "in the control" of the company without regard for where the data is physically located. If you think this will ultimately result in a big win for privacy, you are wrong.
I wish it were easy as that. Some EU governments, e.g., France, were found out to be spying on their own citizens in a manner similar to NSA. The UK, a member of the EU, held Greenwald's partner at Heathrow for search and questioning. Spain (or was it Portugal, or both?) was implicated in refusing to refuel the Bolivian president's plane. Other than pouting a lot, Germany has done basically nothing to retaliate against its leader being spied on by the NSA.
At least Brazil had the guts to stand up to the US.
WKISMET, I think your comments are intelligent, reasonable, and helpful, but I personally see this issue as not primarily being about privacy rights but about Microsoft being forced to break Irish law and being subsequently penalized for cooperating with a US investigation. Should the US be in the business of forcing corporations to break the laws of its allies, unless perhaps the law in question were draconian in some way, which this one isn't (eye of the beholder, I realize)?
In this instance, the US federal government should negotiate with the Irish government a grant of immunity to Microsoft or something to that effect.
Perhaps in time the US and EU will standardize their internet privacy rules and surveillance procedures. Perhaps, forthcoming laws and treaties will clarify that it is immaterial in what country data is being stored at any given moment and that the nationality of the corporation that controls the service is what is important...but then so many of these companies are multi-nationals that it must get really complex....