A college student neighbor who is on summer break asked me last weekend if I had any work for him because we wants to pay down his student loan. He just finished his second year. He is planning to graduate quickly and get in a PhD program in biology to work in cancer research. Needless to say he is a pretty bright kid and also physically fit, but he sucks at yard work and only lasted about an hour before giving up and going home. Some people are good at some tasks and bad at others. Same with disabled people.
One of my friends is blind and he built a multimillion dollar software business. I work a lot in visual media and I was telling him that if I lost my vision I would be sunk. He replied it would be worse to be deaf. I said why? If you are deaf you can't interact with society. He said, I can talk on the phone and make big business deals and people don't even know I'm blind. So yes people with disabilities very from one to another in their capabilities just like regular people.
Well said, that was my point to that very unfortunate person I was talking to earlier and a point emphasized by Blastdoor, the ADA is about giving people a chance, after that it is up to the employer and the employee to make it work and everyone has different abilities and weaknesses and not everyone is fit for every job.
"It's time for Apple to step up or we will take the next step," NFB of California board member Michael Hingson told the news service. Hingson said another lawsuit would be "the only resort" to force compliance.
Not true you dick. Seriously, "the only resort" is to sue??!! What about a conversation?
You are practically begging the universe to leave you blind, deaf, and paralyzed.
Obviously if you take two people who are equivalent in all ways, except that one has a disability, the person lacking the disability is going to be more able to do some things than the disabled person. I suppose that is your brilliant point. Good for you Einstein -- I hope you break your arm patting yourself on the back.
Despite your ignorance, the point of the ADA is NOT to force employers to pay disabled people to do things they are not capable of doing.
The point is to protect people with disabilities from employers who assume that because a disabled person cannot do X and they also cannot do Y, when X is not relevant to the job but Y is.
I have zero expectation that you will understand this nuance.
And seriously, you suck and deserve to suffer greatly.
I don't know what kind of job you work. In many companies the workers frequently are asked to do something unrelated to X such as community services that salesforce.com employees have done in the news. The disabled person wants help from non-disabled person. How one can expect them to provide services to other people?
What law has apple violated here? Why not sue the app maker? Why not sue google?
I'm all for greater accessibility, but I don't quite understand this story...
Obviously, because it says nothing about a lawsuit.
I know people get all superior when it comes to accessibility, but its just good programming practice and ultimately benefits everyone.
Ramps and curb cutouts are just good design for everyone at one time or another.
Accessibility mods to bathrooms benefit everyone, particularly as we age (the ultimate 'disability' that we all face.)
Replacing knobs (a holdover from when door handles were simply offshoots of the clock-making arts) with levers benefits everyone who has ever encountered a door with an arm full of groceries.
I see no problem with encouraging Apple to make it easy for developers to do the right thing.
I said very clearly. Can disabled person perform as well as non-disabled in general?
Well let me respond very clearly for you. I am disabled and I perform psychological evaluations for neurosurgeons and bariatric surgeons as well as therapy for persons with severe mental health diagnosis. This required a bachelors degree, masters degree and a doctorate in clinical psychology. I am very good at what I do and one of the few in the area that provides evaluations (that have a profound effect on peoples lives) that these professionals in this area feel comfortable using.
You have displayed ignorance, bigotry and a profound lack of insight during your postings on this manner. With these qualities I would not be able to hire you and have you work in an environment that requires objectivity and an education level high enough for you to effectively communicate with surgeons and have an understanding of a patients strengths and weaknesses.
Now I understand your low self-esteem (of course these are assumptions based on our limited contact medium, very similar to your assumptions based on not knowing every disabled person) I understand while you use global thinking and generalizations to make yourself feel better about any perceived advantages those disabled people have.
I served in the United States Navy and as a police officer (k9) and I met alot of individuals who weren't so good at there job, however, I don't judge people and lump them into one group which seems to be your coping mechanism. Of course I cannot go out and do construction, but there are people in jobs requiring physical attributes that couldn't do my job and what I do has a profound effect on peoples lives and pays quite well to boot (not saying physical labor doesn't have profound effects, just making a point). So if this hasn't answered your question sufficiently maybe you need to look deeper within yourself, or perhaps some professional help is needed (and no I don't do referrals out of comment sections).
Well let me respond very clearly for you. I am disabled and I perform psychological evaluations for neurosurgeons and bariatric surgeons as well as therapy for persons with severe mental health diagnosis. This required a bachelors degree, masters degree and a doctorate in clinical psychology. I am very good at what I do and one of the few in the area that provides evaluations (that have a profound effect on peoples lives) that these professionals in this area feel comfortable using.
You have displayed ignorance, bigotry and a profound lack of insight during your postings on this manner. With these qualities I would not be able to hire you and have you work in an environment that requires objectivity and an education level high enough for you to effectively communicate with surgeons and have an understanding of a patients strengths and weaknesses.
Now I understand your low self-esteem (of course these are assumptions based on our limited contact medium, very similar to your assumptions based on not knowing every disabled person) I understand while you use global thinking and generalizations to make yourself feel better about any perceived advantages those disabled people have.
I served in the United States Navy and as a police officer (k9) and I met alot of individuals who weren't so good at there job, however, I don't judge people and lump them into one group which seems to be your coping mechanism. Of course I cannot go out and do construction, but there are people in jobs requiring physical attributes that couldn't do my job and what I do has a profound effect on peoples lives and pays quite well to boot (not saying physical labor doesn't have profound effects, just making a point). So if this hasn't answered your question sufficiently maybe you need to look deeper within yourself, or perhaps some professional help is needed (and no I don't do referrals out of comment sections).
I do not think you answered it honestly. You did not say what is your disability. Your job is very specific. It is probably 0.001% of all jobs available.
I do not think you answered it honestly. You did not say what is your disability. Your job is very specific. It is probably 0.001% of all jobs available.
Refer back to my last paragraph. I fear I am enabling you so Ill just leave it at that.
I think what is really needed are apps designed specifically for disabled person. To require every approved app to be easily accessible to disabled person is technologically backward. In reality it limits the functionality of apps.
I have just spent about a month improving my game app for visually impaired people with the brilliant help from people on AppleVis.com. It's a game which involves rolling, moving and combining lettered dice to make words. Some of them have said how much they enjoy it, that I've improved the instructions and that they think it is great fun and they have scored over 140 points and so on.
There are features built into iOS that allow someone who can only press a button to use their device!
Your comments are an insult to both the work Apple has done in VoiceOver and much, much more and the blind and visually impaired people who use iPhones and iPads day in day out. You really should have a read up about their work on Accessibility and then actually try it before posting. It will seem alien at first to use but even for a sighted person like me you start to get better and better at it.
I have just spent about a month improving my game app for visually impaired people with the brilliant help from people on AppleVis.com. It's a game which involves rolling, moving and combining lettered dice to make words. Some of them have said how much they enjoy it, that I've improved the instructions and that they think it is great fun and they have scored over 140 points and so on.
There are features built into iOS that allow someone who can only press a button to use their device!
Your comments are an insult to both the work Apple has done in VoiceOver and much, much more and the blind and visually impaired people who use iPhones and iPads day in day out. You really should have a read up about their work on Accessibility and then actually try it before posting. It will seem alien at first to use but even for a sighted person like me you start to get better and better at it.
Your criticism to me is wrong. The article said NAB wants Apple to require every app in App Store to be disabled person friendly. NAB is not satisfied what Apple has done.
For the most part it is pretty easy for app developers to comply. It is just writing clean code. Instead of only providing an icon for a button, they simply give it a label in the code as well. 10 extra seconds. It is a no brainer once you have been made aware. The main issue is that there are no trial apps available so a blind person would have to contact each app developer and ask if the app was compliant or not before making a purchase.
If you have an app that uses standard only UIKit controls then a lot of the work is already taken care of automatically. A further considerable enhancement can be providing labels and hints in Interface Builder, part of Apple's development system. That much is fairly simple.
The work arises when things happen as a result of the app doing something rather than the user. For example, my app displays a message on the screen "Ready to roll (Turn 2 of 4), but no labels or hints will help there. In this case you have to tell VoiceOver to make an announcement. If the screen layout changes substantially then the dev has to tell VoiceOver. When a user taps a dice in my game I need to relay its letter, colour, position and score. The letter, score and position can all change and I have to track that. There are many things to take into account, I can tell you, that definitely take way more than 10 seconds! However, I've made a better app, more people can use it than before and I get a warm glow because as Apple say, "It's the right thing to do".
I'd like to make a few points here being a person who is blind and uses a IPhone and a Ipad: I feel what the NFB is asking of apple is wrong. Its not the responsibility of apple to make sure all apps are accessible. I feel the developers should work on this and a lot of them do. I've had contact with a few developers and most seem willing to make changes where needed. some apps however really just can't be made accessible. I'll use angry birds as an example. its a very visual game and I fully understand as a voice over user why it can't be made accessible. The NFB has a long history of trying to get what they want and its at times not what other blind people want. I'm glad I'm not associated with them in any way.
I do not think you answered it honestly. You did not say what is your disability. Your job is very specific. It is probably 0.001% of all jobs available.
I think, tzeshan, that you are lucky that this is a virtual discussion and not people sitting around the table in the pub. If it was, I think that by now tookieman would have probably boiled over with apoplexy and punched you. And the rest of us would probably have cheered loudly and bought him an extra drink!
the way NFB want this is wrong. I fully understand not all apps can be made accessible but many can. Apps like angry birds for example are almost impossible to be made accessible. Some one with a disability can still carry out all day to day tasks they just need to adapt things a bit differently.
Perhaps compliant apps could be "tagged" or given their own section (if they aren't already)?
To be fair, it is completely the developer's choice to spend the additional time to include accessibility features. If they choose to not spend the additional effort, that's on them.
On the other hand, I'm sure if lawsuits were filed against banks, the banks would lose and have to spend the extra dev time to bring their apps up to speed.
This isn't correct. The OS needs to provide the accessibility features (eg Siri) when the device doesn't permit software to have enough space to operate. In the case of Siri and other text-to-speech software, it's insanely CPU intensive and memory/disk intensive to operate. We've had the ability for computers to do TTS since the original Mac and Amiga, but only in recent times have we seen this pushed to mobile devices, and out of necessity because blind people with no or little sight can't operate a touch screen. Deaf people have an advantage here because they can see, and even have the device "listen" to people and their surroundings. Blind people get the shortest end of the stick with most computer software.
There's not much that developers can do, as smartphones are mostly visual. There will come a time when tactile touch screens become available and maybe that will change things, but until then, it requires "blind-enabled" software to both accept voice input and read back responses using the TTS engine.
I think, tzeshan, that you are lucky that this is a virtual discussion and not people sitting around the table in the pub. If it was, I think that by now tookieman would have probably boiled over with apoplexy and punched you. And the rest of us would probably have cheered loudly and bought him an extra drink!
Oh believe me... he would have been punched. No doubt he would assume that because I'm borderline legally blind that I cannot see him well enough to land a punch. I would very much enjoy him experiencing the error of that assumption.
There are more than just a few that exhibit this greedy self-centered behavior. Enough so that a generalization can be made. I'm sure there are those who do not believe the world should revolve around them, but MANY handicapped seem to have that opinion. Too many. The laws and law suits perpetuate this type of selfish behavior.
What began as good intended laws has ballooned into a widespread abuse of litigation. By doing a google search with the term below you can see just how widespread this behavior has become. More entitlement mentality with the attitude that it's all about "ME".
Oh believe me... he would have been punched. No doubt he would assume that because I'm borderline legally blind that I cannot see him well enough to land a punch. I would very much enjoy him experiencing the error of that assumption.
I am still waiting for the other poster to say what is his disability. I feel there is a fraud in his case. And to two of you, according to US law I can kill you as self defense before you can punch me.
Comments
A college student neighbor who is on summer break asked me last weekend if I had any work for him because we wants to pay down his student loan. He just finished his second year. He is planning to graduate quickly and get in a PhD program in biology to work in cancer research. Needless to say he is a pretty bright kid and also physically fit, but he sucks at yard work and only lasted about an hour before giving up and going home. Some people are good at some tasks and bad at others. Same with disabled people.
One of my friends is blind and he built a multimillion dollar software business. I work a lot in visual media and I was telling him that if I lost my vision I would be sunk. He replied it would be worse to be deaf. I said why? If you are deaf you can't interact with society. He said, I can talk on the phone and make big business deals and people don't even know I'm blind. So yes people with disabilities very from one to another in their capabilities just like regular people.
Well said, that was my point to that very unfortunate person I was talking to earlier and a point emphasized by Blastdoor, the ADA is about giving people a chance, after that it is up to the employer and the employee to make it work and everyone has different abilities and weaknesses and not everyone is fit for every job.
Just to clarify you are saying a disable person cannot possibly do the job of a an "able" person?
I said very clearly. Can disabled person perform as well as non-disabled in general?
Not true you dick. Seriously, "the only resort" is to sue??!! What about a conversation?
You are practically begging the universe to leave you blind, deaf, and paralyzed.
Obviously if you take two people who are equivalent in all ways, except that one has a disability, the person lacking the disability is going to be more able to do some things than the disabled person. I suppose that is your brilliant point. Good for you Einstein -- I hope you break your arm patting yourself on the back.
Despite your ignorance, the point of the ADA is NOT to force employers to pay disabled people to do things they are not capable of doing.
The point is to protect people with disabilities from employers who assume that because a disabled person cannot do X and they also cannot do Y, when X is not relevant to the job but Y is.
I have zero expectation that you will understand this nuance.
And seriously, you suck and deserve to suffer greatly.
I don't know what kind of job you work. In many companies the workers frequently are asked to do something unrelated to X such as community services that salesforce.com employees have done in the news. The disabled person wants help from non-disabled person. How one can expect them to provide services to other people?
What law has apple violated here? Why not sue the app maker? Why not sue google?
I'm all for greater accessibility, but I don't quite understand this story...
Obviously, because it says nothing about a lawsuit.
I know people get all superior when it comes to accessibility, but its just good programming practice and ultimately benefits everyone.
Ramps and curb cutouts are just good design for everyone at one time or another.
Accessibility mods to bathrooms benefit everyone, particularly as we age (the ultimate 'disability' that we all face.)
Replacing knobs (a holdover from when door handles were simply offshoots of the clock-making arts) with levers benefits everyone who has ever encountered a door with an arm full of groceries.
I see no problem with encouraging Apple to make it easy for developers to do the right thing.
And I'm sure Cook agrees.
I said very clearly. Can disabled person perform as well as non-disabled in general?
Well let me respond very clearly for you. I am disabled and I perform psychological evaluations for neurosurgeons and bariatric surgeons as well as therapy for persons with severe mental health diagnosis. This required a bachelors degree, masters degree and a doctorate in clinical psychology. I am very good at what I do and one of the few in the area that provides evaluations (that have a profound effect on peoples lives) that these professionals in this area feel comfortable using.
You have displayed ignorance, bigotry and a profound lack of insight during your postings on this manner. With these qualities I would not be able to hire you and have you work in an environment that requires objectivity and an education level high enough for you to effectively communicate with surgeons and have an understanding of a patients strengths and weaknesses.
Now I understand your low self-esteem (of course these are assumptions based on our limited contact medium, very similar to your assumptions based on not knowing every disabled person) I understand while you use global thinking and generalizations to make yourself feel better about any perceived advantages those disabled people have.
I served in the United States Navy and as a police officer (k9) and I met alot of individuals who weren't so good at there job, however, I don't judge people and lump them into one group which seems to be your coping mechanism. Of course I cannot go out and do construction, but there are people in jobs requiring physical attributes that couldn't do my job and what I do has a profound effect on peoples lives and pays quite well to boot (not saying physical labor doesn't have profound effects, just making a point). So if this hasn't answered your question sufficiently maybe you need to look deeper within yourself, or perhaps some professional help is needed (and no I don't do referrals out of comment sections).
Well let me respond very clearly for you. I am disabled and I perform psychological evaluations for neurosurgeons and bariatric surgeons as well as therapy for persons with severe mental health diagnosis. This required a bachelors degree, masters degree and a doctorate in clinical psychology. I am very good at what I do and one of the few in the area that provides evaluations (that have a profound effect on peoples lives) that these professionals in this area feel comfortable using.
You have displayed ignorance, bigotry and a profound lack of insight during your postings on this manner. With these qualities I would not be able to hire you and have you work in an environment that requires objectivity and an education level high enough for you to effectively communicate with surgeons and have an understanding of a patients strengths and weaknesses.
Now I understand your low self-esteem (of course these are assumptions based on our limited contact medium, very similar to your assumptions based on not knowing every disabled person) I understand while you use global thinking and generalizations to make yourself feel better about any perceived advantages those disabled people have.
I served in the United States Navy and as a police officer (k9) and I met alot of individuals who weren't so good at there job, however, I don't judge people and lump them into one group which seems to be your coping mechanism. Of course I cannot go out and do construction, but there are people in jobs requiring physical attributes that couldn't do my job and what I do has a profound effect on peoples lives and pays quite well to boot (not saying physical labor doesn't have profound effects, just making a point). So if this hasn't answered your question sufficiently maybe you need to look deeper within yourself, or perhaps some professional help is needed (and no I don't do referrals out of comment sections).
I do not think you answered it honestly. You did not say what is your disability. Your job is very specific. It is probably 0.001% of all jobs available.
I do not think you answered it honestly. You did not say what is your disability. Your job is very specific. It is probably 0.001% of all jobs available.
Refer back to my last paragraph. I fear I am enabling you so Ill just leave it at that.
Refer back to my last paragraph.
No, it does not say what is the disability.
I have just spent about a month improving my game app for visually impaired people with the brilliant help from people on AppleVis.com. It's a game which involves rolling, moving and combining lettered dice to make words. Some of them have said how much they enjoy it, that I've improved the instructions and that they think it is great fun and they have scored over 140 points and so on.
There are features built into iOS that allow someone who can only press a button to use their device!
Your comments are an insult to both the work Apple has done in VoiceOver and much, much more and the blind and visually impaired people who use iPhones and iPads day in day out. You really should have a read up about their work on Accessibility and then actually try it before posting. It will seem alien at first to use but even for a sighted person like me you start to get better and better at it.
Have a look at what a Apple has done so far: http://www.apple.com/accessibility/
I have just spent about a month improving my game app for visually impaired people with the brilliant help from people on AppleVis.com. It's a game which involves rolling, moving and combining lettered dice to make words. Some of them have said how much they enjoy it, that I've improved the instructions and that they think it is great fun and they have scored over 140 points and so on.
There are features built into iOS that allow someone who can only press a button to use their device!
Your comments are an insult to both the work Apple has done in VoiceOver and much, much more and the blind and visually impaired people who use iPhones and iPads day in day out. You really should have a read up about their work on Accessibility and then actually try it before posting. It will seem alien at first to use but even for a sighted person like me you start to get better and better at it.
Have a look at what a Apple has done so far: http://www.apple.com/accessibility/
Your criticism to me is wrong. The article said NAB wants Apple to require every app in App Store to be disabled person friendly. NAB is not satisfied what Apple has done.
If you have an app that uses standard only UIKit controls then a lot of the work is already taken care of automatically. A further considerable enhancement can be providing labels and hints in Interface Builder, part of Apple's development system. That much is fairly simple.
The work arises when things happen as a result of the app doing something rather than the user. For example, my app displays a message on the screen "Ready to roll (Turn 2 of 4), but no labels or hints will help there. In this case you have to tell VoiceOver to make an announcement. If the screen layout changes substantially then the dev has to tell VoiceOver. When a user taps a dice in my game I need to relay its letter, colour, position and score. The letter, score and position can all change and I have to track that. There are many things to take into account, I can tell you, that definitely take way more than 10 seconds! However, I've made a better app, more people can use it than before and I get a warm glow because as Apple say, "It's the right thing to do".
I feel what the NFB is asking of apple is wrong. Its not the responsibility of apple to make sure all apps are accessible. I feel the developers should work on this and a lot of them do.
I've had contact with a few developers and most seem willing to make changes where needed.
some apps however really just can't be made accessible. I'll use angry birds as an example. its a very visual game and I fully understand as a voice over user why it can't be made accessible. The NFB has a long history of trying to get what they want and its at times not what other blind people want. I'm glad I'm not associated with them in any way.
I think, tzeshan, that you are lucky that this is a virtual discussion and not people sitting around the table in the pub. If it was, I think that by now tookieman would have probably boiled over with apoplexy and punched you. And the rest of us would probably have cheered loudly and bought him an extra drink!
the way NFB want this is wrong. I fully understand not all apps can be made accessible but many can. Apps like angry birds for example are almost impossible to be made accessible. Some one with a disability can still carry out all day to day tasks they just need to adapt things a bit differently.
This isn't correct. The OS needs to provide the accessibility features (eg Siri) when the device doesn't permit software to have enough space to operate. In the case of Siri and other text-to-speech software, it's insanely CPU intensive and memory/disk intensive to operate. We've had the ability for computers to do TTS since the original Mac and Amiga, but only in recent times have we seen this pushed to mobile devices, and out of necessity because blind people with no or little sight can't operate a touch screen. Deaf people have an advantage here because they can see, and even have the device "listen" to people and their surroundings. Blind people get the shortest end of the stick with most computer software.
There's not much that developers can do, as smartphones are mostly visual. There will come a time when tactile touch screens become available and maybe that will change things, but until then, it requires "blind-enabled" software to both accept voice input and read back responses using the TTS engine.
I think, tzeshan, that you are lucky that this is a virtual discussion and not people sitting around the table in the pub. If it was, I think that by now tookieman would have probably boiled over with apoplexy and punched you. And the rest of us would probably have cheered loudly and bought him an extra drink!
Oh believe me... he would have been punched. No doubt he would assume that because I'm borderline legally blind that I cannot see him well enough to land a punch. I would very much enjoy him experiencing the error of that assumption.
There are more than just a few that exhibit this greedy self-centered behavior. Enough so that a generalization can be made. I'm sure there are those who do not believe the world should revolve around them, but MANY handicapped seem to have that opinion. Too many. The laws and law suits perpetuate this type of selfish behavior.
What began as good intended laws has ballooned into a widespread abuse of litigation. By doing a google search with the term below you can see just how widespread this behavior has become. More entitlement mentality with the attitude that it's all about "ME".
Google this:
"people with disabilities absurd lawsuits ADA"
Oh believe me... he would have been punched. No doubt he would assume that because I'm borderline legally blind that I cannot see him well enough to land a punch. I would very much enjoy him experiencing the error of that assumption.
I am still waiting for the other poster to say what is his disability. I feel there is a fraud in his case. And to two of you, according to US law I can kill you as self defense before you can punch me.