Apple continues European retail expansion with new Istanbul, Den Haag outlets

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  • Reply 21 of 45
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    flaneur wrote: »
    No, not well stated, but I was ironically congratulating ChiA for opposing—by referencing history—that cross-cultural insult that always seems to come up when Istanbul comes up.

    Put yourself in the place of someone from Turkey. If you don't get a joke from the American that plays on the name of your country, the name of your greatest city, the quality of your jails (since "Midnight Express), or some aspect of backwardness (since "the sick man of Europe"), you may be excused in thinking you've finally met someone who is taking you straight as a fellow citizen of Earth..

    It's particularly galling to me because I know that Anatolia was the site of the earliest towns, earliest agriculture, oldest ceremonial architecture (Göbekli Tepe), the most hospitable people I've ever encountered, the most fun to hang out with. I've seen many an American make a lout of himself when meeting one of my Turkish friends. It's made me aware of the general blindness of those from a dominant culture to the asymmetric dynamics of joking about another's culture. Civilized people dispense with all that and get right down to learning about the other.

    Where is the joke? Where is the insult? It's a catchy lyiric. It's as offensive to sing "It never rains in Southern California…" I know for a fact that is does rain in Southern California, at least stating the newest name of the city is factual.
  • Reply 22 of 45
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    Where is the joke? Where is the insult? It's a catchy lyiric. It's as offensive to sing "It never rains in Southern California…" I know for a fact that is does rain in Southern California, at least stating the newest name of the city is factual.

    Thanks for bringing this up, because it's something that needs to be worked out and said about cross-cultural issues in general that arise on this globally focused website.

    Like I said, the one from the dominant culture is naturally unaware of the insult. In this case, the Anglo-Saxon worldview creates the inferiority complex and then refuses to see it transcended.

    The founding of the Turkish Republic by Atatürk, the creation of a secular state and the end of Ottoman dominance, the official adoption of the cosmopolitan outlook embodied in the now official name Istanbul are all related points of serious pride for Turkish people, from intellectuals to ordinary citizens. Americans make a joke of the name without understanding any of this, let alone the humiliations and machinations from European imperialism after WW I, or even the city's destruction during the Crusades. People with a history have long memories, to the surprise of Americans, who have a relatively short history. "Constantinople" can be associated with hundreds of years of humiliating baggage to modern Turkish people, but of course this would mainly arise when someone challenges the established victory by making a joke with the "forbidden" name. I hope this is clear, and I don't have to explain why watermelon jokes are differentially offensive.

    Oh, and by the way, this is not about the song with the catchy lyric, which I haven't listened to. It's about how the joke looks in print to someone from Turkey who is not familiar with the song.
  • Reply 23 of 45
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    flaneur wrote: »
    Thanks for bringing this up, because it's something that needs to be worked out and said about cross-cultural issues in general that arise on this globally focused website.

    Like I said, the one from the dominant culture is naturally unaware of the insult. In this case, the Anglo-Saxon worldview creates the inferiority complex and then refuses to see it transcended.

    The founding of the Turkish Republic by Atatürk, the creation of a secular state and the end of Ottoman dominance, the official adoption of the cosmopolitan outlook embodied in the now official name Istanbul are all related points of serious pride for Turkish people, from intellectuals to ordinary citizens. Americans make a joke of the name without understanding any of this, let alone the humiliations and machinations from European imperialism after WW I, or even the city's destruction during the Crusades. People with a history have long memories, to the surprise of Americans, who have a relatively short history. "Constantinople" can be associated with hundreds of years of humiliating baggage to modern Turkish people, but of course this would mainly arise when someone challenges the established victory by making a joke with the "forbidden" name. I hope this is clear, and I don't have to explain why watermelon jokes are differentially offensive.

    Oh, and by the way, this is not about the song with the catchy lyric, which I haven't listened to. It's about how the joke looks in print to someone from Turkey who is not familiar with the song.

    1) So referring to the factual name Istanbul is offensive?

    2) Again, where is the joke? If anything is offensive here is not understanding what constitutes a joke.

    3) Seriously, "forbidden" name. Do the Turkish people then refer to it as "the city that must not be named"?

    4) What if I said the song celebrates the end of this dark time and the genesis of this new this freedom? Of course, you haven'tistened to the song despite being given to you and ezaines on many occasions; instead you're just reacting to a word… a word you have also used.

    5) No one is going to stop quoting this fun song so you're better letting your in are hatred for anyone but you to use the word Constantinople go.
  • Reply 24 of 45
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    1) So referring to the factual name Istanbul is offensive?

    2) Again, where is the joke? If anything is offensive here is not understanding what constitutes a joke.

    3) Seriously, "forbidden" name. Do the Turkish people then refer to it as "the city that must not be named"?

    4) What if I said the song celebrates the end of this dark time and the genesis of this new this freedom? Of course, you haven'tistened to the song despite being given to you and ezaines on many occasions; instead you're just reacting to a word… a word you have also used.

    5) No one is going to stop quoting this fun song so you're better letting your in are hatred for anyone but you to use the word Constantinople go.

    The joke is on you for not getting it. The reference is 90 years old now.

    I have an idea, since we have readers in Turkey, and readers around the world from Turkey. How about if every time you want to repeat the joke when the name Istanbul comes up, you post the lyrics along with your one-line extract, plus the picture of the Four Lad American pretty-boy hipsters, so everyone can see what you're referring to? That would make the joke so much better, wouldn't it? No?
  • Reply 25 of 45
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    flaneur wrote: »
    The joke is on you for not getting it. The reference is 90 years old now.

    I have an idea, since we have readers in Turkey, and readers around the world from Turkey. How about if every time you want to repeat the joke when the name Istanbul comes up, you post the lyrics along with your one-line extract, plus the picture of the Four Lad American pretty-boy hipsters, so everyone can see what you're referring to? That would make the joke so much better, wouldn't it? No?

    1) If it's 90 years old then why are you so upset?

    2) You're being so ridiculous that I'm close to adding that lyric to my signature.

    3) If you think that the name Constantinople is so offensive then report every single post that has used it… including yours.
  • Reply 26 of 45
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    solipsismx wrote: »
    1) If it's 90 years old then why are you so upset?

    2) You're being so ridiculous that I'm close to adding that lyric to my signature.

    3) If you think that the name Constantinople is so offensive then report every single post that has used it… including yours.

    Here's a little more ridiculousness for you to refuse to understand. The song, which having listened to it I now remember very well from the 50s, is equivalent to minstrel music done in blackface, not quite as bad as Amos & Andy done by white voices like it was on radio, but close. It was part of the bankrupt Tin Pan Alley-Hit Parade white music business that Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis (white crossover) and Little Richard liberated us from with such relief later in the decade. This song, and others like "How Much Is That Doggie in the Window" were driving us crazy. Novelty tunes for straight people. We knew that as kids. I'm pretty sure that Turks would read that song like we do now with Al Jolson doing "Mammy."

    The joke is quoting that in a thread about some Apple event in Turkey as evidence of knowing something about Istanbul. From the point of view of a Turkish person it is a gaffe at best. I have no charge on the word Constantinople, just on using it to amuse people with and to hell with what the Turks think.
  • Reply 27 of 45
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,671member
    flaneur wrote: »
    "How Much Is That Doggie in the Window"

    I love that song!
    ... the word Constantinople...

    Cont has the pronunciation of ass, in Dutch, which makes kids chuckle. There's a song about it, but 'probably' only understood by Dutch folks:

    ...something along the lines of: "Adam slapt Eve on her bare ass Constantinopel is a beautiful city" and so on, really childish stuff 8-)

    http://chezlubacov.org/constantinopel/


    Tien pond bananen
    Bananen zijn gezond
    Adam sloeg Eva op haar blote
    Constantinopel is een mooie stad
    Daar lopen de meisjes in hun blote
    Ga je mee naar Frankrijk
    Frankrijk is zo leuk
    Daar wordt elke avond heel wat afge-
    Neushoorntjes vangen in het lange riet
    Dit is het einde van dit fijne lied
    maar ik herinner me ook nog iets met tita tovenaar en zijn plassert:
    Tita tovenaar
    Heeft een lange sik
    En tussen zijn benen een hele dikke
    Pikken is verboden
    Pikken doe je niet
  • Reply 28 of 45
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,001member
    For the love of Pete, can someone please post the They Might be Giants video so [@]Flaneur[/@] knows where that comes from?

    Here's the link.



    And here's proof that humanity is still alive and well.

  • Reply 29 of 45
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    flaneur wrote: »
    Here's a little more ridiculousness for you to refuse to understand. The song, which having listened to it I now remember very well from the 50s, is equivalent to minstrel music done in blackface, not quite as bad as Amos & Andy done by white voices like it was on radio, but close. It was part of the bankrupt Tin Pan Alley-Hit Parade white music business that Chuck Berry and Jerry Lee Lewis (white crossover) and Little Richard liberated us from with such relief later in the decade. This song, and others like "How Much Is That Doggie in the Window" were driving us crazy. Novelty tunes for straight people. We knew that as kids. I'm pretty sure that Turks would read that song like we do now with Al Jolson doing "Mammy."

    The joke is quoting that in a thread about some Apple event in Turkey as evidence of knowing something about Istanbul. From the point of view of a Turkish person it is a gaffe at best. I have no charge on the word Constantinople, just on using it to amuse people with and to hell with what the Turks think.

    So a song that mentions blackface is the same as blackface. Sounds reasonable¡
  • Reply 30 of 45
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,671member
    Are you guys going to constantinopaly be at each others' throat¿
  • Reply 31 of 45
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    dasanman69 wrote: »
    For the love of Pete, can someone please post the They Might be Giants video so [@]Flaneur[/@] knows where that comes from?

    Here's the link.



    And here's proof that humanity is still alive and well.


    That ain't where it comes from, Homes, that's what Hollywood does with a bad idea—makes it worse. Wikipedia says the Four Lads got the idea from Paul Whiteman (ha-ha). I wonder if I remember that one from my dad's record collection. The Lads version does have some serious orchestration going for it.

    But I did like the train passenger rescue, thanks.
  • Reply 32 of 45
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,001member
    flaneur wrote: »
    That ain't where it comes from, Homes, that's what Hollywood does with a bad idea—makes it worse. Wikipedia says the Four Lads got the idea from Paul Whiteman (ha-ha). I wonder if I remember that one from my dad's record collection. The Lads version does have some serious orchestration going for it.

    But I did like the train passenger rescue, thanks.

    Actually I just learned myself the there are 2 versions of the song. I'd say most know my reference but thanks to [@]Tallest Skil[/@] for showing us the original. So that's 2 sources of the 'stupidity' as you called it. I'd say it's just silliness. ;)
  • Reply 33 of 45
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    philboogie wrote: »
    I love that song!
    Cont has the pronunciation of ass, in Dutch, which makes kids chuckle. There's a song about it, but 'probably' only understood by Dutch folks:

    ...something along the lines of: "Adam slapt Eve on her bare ass Constantinopel is a beautiful city" and so on, really childish stuff 8-)

    http://chezlubacov.org/constantinopel/


    Tien pond bananen
    Bananen zijn gezond
    Adam sloeg Eva op haar blote
    Constantinopel is een mooie stad
    Daar lopen de meisjes in hun blote
    Ga je mee naar Frankrijk
    Frankrijk is zo leuk
    Daar wordt elke avond heel wat afge-
    Neushoorntjes vangen in het lange riet
    Dit is het einde van dit fijne lied
    maar ik herinner me ook nog iets met tita tovenaar en zijn plassert:
    Tita tovenaar
    Heeft een lange sik
    En tussen zijn benen een hele dikke
    Pikken is verboden
    Pikken doe je niet

    Nice. I have the feeling that this could be a gateway lesson to learning Dutch. It seems so close to Middle English, i.e. Chaucer.
  • Reply 34 of 45
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    dasanman69 wrote: »
    Actually I just learned myself the there are 2 versions of the song. I'd say most know my reference but thanks to [@]Tallest Skil[/@] for showing us the original. So that's 2 sources of the 'stupidity' as you called it. I'd say it's just silliness. ;)

    In and of itself, it's brilliant silliness, like you say. My point was that it's stupidity when it's used here as a piece of conversation about Apple's growing presence in Turkey.

    There's a good quote in the comments for the YouTube video. Napoleon said that if the world were one, Istanbul would be its capital—words to that effect.
  • Reply 35 of 45
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,671member
    flaneur wrote: »
    Nice. I have the feeling that this could be a gateway lesson to learning Dutch. It seems so close to Middle English, i.e. Chaucer.

    French, German. Much is actually from Latin, a language my niece fully grasps: she's getting A+ for that class.

    Wiki:

    Dutch (About this sound Nederlands (help·info)) is a West Germanic language and the native language of most of the population of the Netherlands, and about sixty percent of the populations of Belgium and Suriname, the three member states of the Dutch Language Union. Most speakers live in the European Union, where it is a first language for about 23 million and a second language for another 5 million people.[1][2][3][5]

    Dutch also holds official status in the Caribbean island nations of Aruba, Curaçao, and Sint Maarten, while Dutch or dialects assigned to it continue to be spoken, in parts of France and Germany, and to a lesser extent, in Indonesia,[n 1] and up to half a million native Dutch speakers may be living in the United States, Canada, and Australia.[n 2] The Cape Dutch dialects of Southern Africa have been standardised into Afrikaans, a partially mutually intelligible daughter language[n 3] which today is spoken by an estimated total of 15 to 23 million people in South Africa and Namibia.[n 4]
  • Reply 36 of 45
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,817member
    I can't believe this thread turned into a debate about a song. Kudos. You must be the life of a party.
  • Reply 37 of 45
    philboogie wrote: »
    Are you guys going to constantinopaly be at each others' throat¿

    ’Opaly not. ????
  • Reply 38 of 45
    philboogie wrote: »
    flaneur wrote: »
    Nice. I have the feeling that this could be a gateway lesson to learning Dutch. It seems so close to Middle English, i.e. Chaucer.

    French, German. Much is actually from Latin, a language my niece fully grasps: she's getting A+ for that class.

    Wiki:

    Dutch (About this sound Nederlands (help·info)) is a West Germanic language and the native language of most of the population of the Netherlands, and about sixty percent of the populations of Belgium and Suriname, the three member states of the Dutch Language Union. Most speakers live in the European Union, where it is a first language for about 23 million and a second language for another 5 million people.[1][2][3][5]

    Dutch also holds official status in the Caribbean island nations of Aruba, Curaçao, and Sint Maarten, while Dutch or dialects assigned to it continue to be spoken, in parts of France and Germany, and to a lesser extent, in Indonesia,[n 1] and up to half a million native Dutch speakers may be living in the United States, Canada, and Australia.[n 2] The Cape Dutch dialects of Southern Africa have been standardised into Afrikaans, a partially mutually intelligible daughter language[n 3] which today is spoken by an estimated total of 15 to 23 million people in South Africa and Namibia.[n 4]

    It's all Greek to me.
  • Reply 39 of 45
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,671member

    It's all Greek to me.

    That'll work as a Greek restaurant name, which is actually right here, downtown.
  • Reply 40 of 45
    philboogie wrote: »

    It's all Greek to me.

    That'll work as a Greek restaurant name, which is actually right here, downtown.

    Just don't ask for Greek coffee in a Turkish restaurant; you'll offend them.
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