And if you thought helicopter parents were bad, this will give us parents that can't go 1 second without checking on their baby's status bringing in an era of super-p&ssy parents raising super-p#ssy children that can't take a step for fear they may hurt themselves.
Big Brother will be nothing compared to Big Parents who now know everything about their child for every moment. Not all will be this way, but now the door is opened.
It's not all bad. Maybe some abusive baby-sitters will be caught because of this.
Big Brother will be nothing compared to Big Parents who now know everything about their child for every moment. Not all will be this way, but now the door is opened.
Been opened for roughly a generation. We’re already seeing the effects.
I actually have first-hand experience of this. My 3rd daughter had a chromosome abnormality and a Cong. heart defect. Open heart surgery at 9 days old, and we spent more time in the hospital than at home during her life. And when we were at home- we couldn't go anywhere due to her immune system. A cold would send us back to the hospital. She passed away at 14 months old Christmas Day 2012. She's so much better for it. Ya- it sounds heartless Maestro- and it was the hardest thing we ever did- allowing her to pass away instead of electing for another 4+ surgeries that she likely wouldn't have survived- but her quality of life was terrible. Constant pain and she had way more fear/sadness than happiness. We would have been prolonging the inevitable. Just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should.
My heart goes out to you in a huge, huge way. I too know parents who have had really difficult decisions regarding kids who have no chance of getting "better". I won't get into personal stuff on a public site like this, but I understand firsthand some of the feelings you went through - though not nearly at the level and duration you did. RIP little one.
I seriously doubt Google ever sells your personal information. It is much more useful for them to keep it private. What Google sells is targeted advertising. Without a doubt they develop personal profiles when possible, but it does them no good to sell it to an advertiser who has no way to deliver ads on their own. The advertiser needs Google to deliver the ads based on their custom profile.
Google is not going to bother sending you a random ad when they can send you a targeted ad. If Google knows you are interested in a specific topic, they have a better chance of getting a click from you than if they sent you an ad that was completely irrelevant. In a way, you can think of targeted ads as a service. Ads are everywhere. Wouldn't you rather see ads about something you were interested in if you have to see ads anyway?
No I would not! How wedded to the disease of being "marketed to" are people these days anyway?
You are misunderstanding (or at least misusing) terminology (above). I'm perfectly fine with targeted advertising. It merely requires knowing what kind of site I'm visiting, and displaying reasonably relevant ads to that content. It's been around for at least 50-60 years, probably longer. Nothing wrong with it, other than it can be annoying.
I'm NOT fine with personally individualized advertising, which is truly immoral and dehumanizing if I didn't explicitly agree to it. THAT is what google does, and no one should be okay with it.
The former is fully ephemeral. You visit the site and an ad is delivered based on the site's content and perhaps other transient info like date/time/etc. End of story.
The latter is forever. The data mining companies (google's main competitive advantage these days is simply that they are arguably the best data miner in the world) gather as much personal data about each individual as they possibly can, both long-term and real-time data. They use that data to build detailed psychological profiles, movement patterns and purchase patterns of every single person they can identify, regardless of whether or not they have explicitly agreed to be mined. How can people not understand that this is unacceptable?
It's not seeing ads that's offensive, it's the data mining!
Back on topic, I have at least 3 big problems with this product.
1) To jump onboard with a couple other folks here, I don't believe in data mining, especially for kids, and holy crap, now babies?!. As talented as many google employees are, they cannot guarantee that this data will be secure. Not now, and certainly not forever. They've already had their security broken by our government and by at least one foreign government. The amount of personal data they have is just too big a target to ever be considered "safe". How can you trust a relatively unknown company like this with personal, identifiable (believe me, it is), data that includes biometric and behavioral data?
2) How does this product send data outbound? WiFi? Bluetooth? Whatever it's doing is almost certain to use some kind of transmitter. Do you really want a transmitter essentially touching your infant?? Sure, we're all using cell phones, but, a) we're adults, b) we make the choice ourselves, and c) it took a long time to understand and quantify the levels at which those devices caused damage -- to adults! The allowed levels have changed a lot over the years. This is a big unknown with infants, who, as most of you should know, are far more susceptible to lots of materials and conditions than adults. EM hypersensitivity is unproven as of yet (though I know someone terribly affected), but higher doses of EM can be problematic for adults, so scale it down to an infant and consider whether you'd want to attach a WiFi transmitter to your baby's leg.
3) Again, others have mentioned this, but this product reeks of lazy parenting. Anything and everything that puts you in direct view/contact with your infant/baby/toddler/kid/teen is a plus. When you choose to have kids, it's life changing. You simply don't get to have long spells of uninterrupted time - and in general that's a good thing! You need to learn about your kids firsthand, not through some kind proxy parenting device.
Before closing, I do understand that there are special cases where a device like this could be of more value than the downsides listed above. Special needs kids, those with physical ailments, extended hospital stays, etc. I'm all for helping those families. But the sproutling picture of a parent sitting down eating a meal with their glasses of wine and the caption "Know if it's getting too loud." is just too much. If your baby is sleeping, and you want them to continue sleeping, be quiet! Good parenting requires direct contact: eyes-on baby, and vice-versa.
I'm NOT fine with personally individualized advertising, which is truly immoral and dehumanizing if I didn't explicitly agree to it. THAT is what google does, and no one should be okay with it.
I can see your point, it may be unethical, but it is not illegal, unlike selling your personal information is, as was alleged by the OP.
But let's put the blame where it really belongs, on the advertisers and the websites that host them. If the website owner does not put scripts in the page to allow tracking and the display of dynamic ads, Google would not have any way to track you or send you ads. Of course the funding for the websites comes from ads, so without them, the website might not exist.
Anyone who is concerned with what information Google is collecting about them is perfectly capable of preventing it with some simple steps such as never logging into Google services and using ad blockers like Ghostery. Unfortunately iOS devices do not permit ad blockers.
I can see your point, it may be unethical, but it is not illegal, unlike selling your personal information is, as was alleged by the OP.
But let's put the blame where it really belongs, on the advertisers and the websites that host them. If the website owner does not put scripts in the page to allow tracking and the display of dynamic ads, Google would not have any way to track you or send you ads. Of course the funding for the websites comes from ads, so without them, the website might not exist.
Anyone who is concerned with what information Google is collecting about them is perfectly capable of preventing it with some simple steps such as never logging into Google services and using ad blockers like Ghostery. Unfortunately iOS devices do not permit ad blockers.
Unethical vs. Illegal: I agree that there is a big difference, and perhaps we can even agree that while acting within the confines of the law, they are acting unethical. I have a big problem with that, and it bothers me to no end that so many people ignore it. Beyond that, from a legal standpoint, google and their ilk are almost completely unregulated. They can change their policies at any time and people are stuck/screwed. They will keep their treasure troves of data secret for exactly as long as it benefits them more to do so than to sell or give it away. Oh, except when they are legally compelled to give it away. Let's hope that part doesn't get out of control.
I don't blame the web site owners nearly as much as the data miners, simply because they are mostly small-fry consumers of the services, stuck in the middle. Big players have their own systems in place. The small players need to have something to bring in some revenue, and for many of them they have no other feasible alternatives. Google, on the other hand, knows exactly what they're doing. On the other hand, I do put a lot of blame on the grocery stores and real-world retailers that sell their customer data to data mining companies like axciom. Those guys make me want to puke.
I'm sorry to say, your last point is just not true. Google (and other data miners - many are ethically worse, just not as good at what they do) are collecting data about you without regard to whether you have a google account or use ad blockers. Think about gmail. Hundreds of millions of people are sending google data about not only themselves, but about others they communicate with. How do you stop people from sending emails TO YOU with personal information? And yes, mobile devices are extremely difficult to use anonymously (essentially impossible for anyone not highly technical and obsessively diligent), not just iOS. Unless you take ridiculously obscene steps, google and others, like your ISP, are collecting massive amounts of data about everything you do online.
Unethical vs. Illegal: I agree that there is a big difference, and perhaps we can even agree that while acting within the confines of the law, they are acting unethical. I have a big problem with that, and it bothers me to no end that so many people ignore it. Beyond that, from a legal standpoint, google and their ilk are almost completely unregulated. They can change their policies at any time and people are stuck/screwed. They will keep their treasure troves of data secret for exactly as long as it benefits them more to do so than to sell or give it away. Oh, except when they are legally compelled to give it away. Let's hope that part doesn't get out of control.
I don't blame the web site owners nearly as much as the data miners, simply because they are mostly small-fry consumers of the services, stuck in the middle. Big players have their own systems in place. The small players need to have something to bring in some revenue, and for many of them they have no other feasible alternatives. Google, on the other hand, knows exactly what they're doing. On the other hand, I do put a lot of blame on the grocery stores and real-world retailers that sell their customer data to data mining companies like axciom. Those guys make me want to puke.
I'm sorry to say, your last point is just not true. Google (and other data miners - many are ethically worse, just not as good at what they do) are collecting data about you without regard to whether you have a google account or use ad blockers. Think about gmail. Hundreds of millions of people are sending google data about not only themselves, but about others they communicate with. How do you stop people from sending emails TO YOU with personal information? And yes, mobile devices are extremely difficult to use anonymously (essentially impossible for anyone not highly technical and obsessively diligent), not just iOS. Unless you take ridiculously obscene steps, google and others, like your ISP, are collecting massive amounts of data about everything you do online.
I think we agree on most everything. Welcome to the 21st century. There are people in third world countries who have no digital 'paper trail' whatsoever. They don't know anything but anonymity, but they long to be online and part of the global community. These are our times.
Perhaps, but I still think your delusional conspiracy theory is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure that is not how Google works.
I seriously doubt Google ever sells your personal information. It is much more useful for them to keep it private. What Google sells is targeted advertising. Without a doubt they develop personal profiles when possible, but it does them no good to sell it to an advertiser who has no way to deliver ads on their own. The advertiser needs Google to deliver the ads based on their custom profile.
Google is not going to bother sending you a random ad when they can send you a targeted ad. If Google knows you are interested in a specific topic, they have a better chance of getting a click from you than if they sent you an ad that was completely irrelevant. In a way, you can think of targeted ads as a service. Ads are everywhere. Wouldn't you rather see ads about something you were interested in if you have to see ads anyway?
I was going to respond on a few items but blah64 seems to have done a good job at expressing my viewpoint. Hardly delusional conspiracy theory, and you give way too much credit to google. They are like samsung - pathetic, and I do my best to avoid giving them any of my data. However, I got bitten when I bought a Nest thermostat and they suddenly became google, and they suddenly went from saying that they will run completely separately to now saying they can't promise that the data from my Nest won't be mined (straight from google). So, as soon as I replace my heat pump this fall, bye bye Nest. Just warning people about the future likelihood of google buying this company.
But one thing you said bothers me: "Google is not going to bother sending you a random ad when they can send you a targeted ad." The entire point of my post WAS targeted ads and not random ads. Can't you see that? Based on what the baby is doing or feeling, google can mine that data and 'target' me with ads related to what I may want to do for my baby. This is BEYOND acceptable in my opinion!! Completely wrong. If it's too bright or loud in the room for the baby to sleep comfortably, I want the product to TELL ME the information and let ME assess what to do about it. I swear to you, when google owns this company, the day that the stupid Sprouting tells me that it's too bright in my baby's room, I WILL get advertisements from STUPID OVERPRICED mini blind companies who will gladly send someone from 80 miles away to install mini blinds that I can install myself for 1/3 the price. "Wouldn't I rather see ads about something I was interested in if I have to see ads anyway?" NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!
I think we agree on most everything. Welcome to the 21st century. There are people in third world countries who have no digital 'paper trail' whatsoever. They don't know anything but anonymity, but they long to be online and part of the global community. These are our times.
Wow, so justification for the likes of google is, 'Welcome to the 21st century'?!?!? Very sad. So, just roll over and take it, since it's the 21st century?!?!? Unbelievable. Reminds me of when Coach Bobby Knight got into trouble telling a reporter that when you are being raped and there is nothing you can do about it, you may as well relax and enjoy it. Don't be a sheep. Fight against it!! Do what is right to fight unethical behavior.
I think we agree on most everything. Welcome to the 21st century. There are people in third world countries who have no digital 'paper trail' whatsoever. They don't know anything but anonymity, but they long to be online and part of the global community. These are our times.
It's an interesting point about third world countries with little access to online services. It makes me wonder if there's a natural path for cultures to go through, or whether they will learn from our mistakes as "leaders" in digital technology. Will they necessarily follow a path where all the early users go "Woo Hoo! We can put anything we want online!" and overshare more and more and more until they finally realize they've been taken for fools by big data mining and marketers? Or will they be able to learn from places that have already been there and pulled back from the edge to a more rational way of life (if/when we make it there!) where consumers are actually in control of their own personal data? Hopefully the latter, but it will be years before we find out. The problem is that entire categories of "free" services the data miners are providing these days are so addicting that it's really, really hard for people to let go of them. These are drugs, just like chemical drugs; they provide pleasure, but with consequences. That right there should tell people something, but I think most people are so deeply embedded and addicted, that it's too late for many.
If we more or less agree on most of this, that's cool. But I too, take a little issue with the "Welcome to the 21st century" notion. Mostly because it reminds me of Scott McNealy's quote "You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it." Made me so angry I wanted to punch him in the mouth every time I heard other people parrot his idiotic words. (No, I didn't have that feeling with you right now, but the comment vaguely reminds me of his). I do feel like as a society we're slowly pulling back from the edge, especially with all the various "private" communication apps and services that are popping up these days. The success that some of them are having gives me hope, but there's a long road ahead of us, and the Internet of Things is going to be a big challenge.
Anyway, the 21st century comment made me want to say this: As we move toward more and more data mining and surveillance, what I find is that the gap between basically selling your soul and handing over the keys to your brain for commercial purposes to everyone and everything, and living in a cave is growing smaller and smaller. As the reach and efficiency of these companies (and govt organizations) gets stronger and stronger, it's harder to avoid. Frankly, I don't want to live in a cave, and I don't want to whore myself out to companies that want to know every fricking detail of what I do and who I am. That's just evil and dehumanizing. The gap between these two modalities has become extremely difficult to navigate.
Wow, so justification for the likes of google is, 'Welcome to the 21st century'?!?!? Very sad. So, just roll over and take it, since it's the 21st century?!?!? Unbelievable. Reminds me of when Coach Bobby Knight got into trouble telling a reporter that when you are being raped and there is nothing you can do about it, you may as well relax and enjoy it. Don't be a sheep. Fight against it!! Do what is right to fight unethical behavior.
Thank you! Both for being a fighter and for pointing out the Bobby Knight quote. I'd long forgotten about that, but I think it illustrates perfectly what so many people are doing now. What's happening is vile and reprehensible, and most people are still just laying back and taking it even though they feel violated (social media firms are near the very bottom in "trustability" surveys, so people DO know better, they're just not rebelling in big numbers yet).
Knight's exact quote was: "I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it". Sick man. Just like McNealy.
Please keep spreading the word, and I see myself using this quote a lot in the future to illustrate the point. Thanks.
Back on topic, I have at least 3 big problems with this product.
1) To jump onboard with a couple other folks here, I don't believe in data mining, especially for kids, and holy crap, now babies?!. As talented as many google employees are, they cannot guarantee that this data will be secure. Not now, and certainly not forever. They've already had their security broken by our government and by at least one foreign government. The amount of personal data they have is just too big a target to ever be considered "safe". How can you trust a relatively unknown company like this with personal, identifiable (believe me, it is), data that includes biometric and behavioral data?
2) How does this product send data outbound? WiFi? Bluetooth? Whatever it's doing is almost certain to use some kind of transmitter. Do you really want a transmitter essentially touching your infant?? Sure, we're all using cell phones, but, a) we're adults, b) we make the choice ourselves, and c) it took a long time to understand and quantify the levels at which those devices caused damage -- to adults! The allowed levels have changed a lot over the years. This is a big unknown with infants, who, as most of you should know, are far more susceptible to lots of materials and conditions than adults. EM hypersensitivity is unproven as of yet (though I know someone terribly affected), but higher doses of EM can be problematic for adults, so scale it down to an infant and consider whether you'd want to attach a WiFi transmitter to your baby's leg.
3) Again, others have mentioned this, but this product reeks of lazy parenting. Anything and everything that puts you in direct view/contact with your infant/baby/toddler/kid/teen is a plus. When you choose to have kids, it's life changing. You simply don't get to have long spells of uninterrupted time - and in general that's a good thing! You need to learn about your kids firsthand, not through some kind proxy parenting device.
Before closing, I do understand that there are special cases where a device like this could be of more value than the downsides listed above. Special needs kids, those with physical ailments, extended hospital stays, etc. I'm all for helping those families. But the sproutling picture of a parent sitting down eating a meal with their glasses of wine and the caption "Know if it's getting too loud." is just too much. If your baby is sleeping, and you want them to continue sleeping, be quiet! Good parenting requires direct contact: eyes-on baby, and vice-versa.
/rant off
Well you summed up nicely what I was saying in a long winded way. I have told a number of people who all have older kids now and they all said the same as you, learn about you kids first hand.
I do not know this as fact but I suspect Nest will be mining all this data, the question will be where will all this data or analysis of the data end up. You know researchers we love to get their hands on this kind of data on every aspect of a babies day. But is here is the rub on this, you pay Nest $200+ for the product and you get nothing in return, Normally if you are involved in a research study they pay you. My daughter participated in a research study for concussions and they gave her a fed ipod and paid her $200.
Unlike google who give people a free email account in exchange to freely read your email, Nest is making you pay for the them to make money off your babies activities data.
Kids are pretty annoying, but I recognize that this is a cool product for those that have successfully bred and produced little monsters.
Indeed.
Children should be seen and not heard. If only parents still adhered to those wise words. Children being seen and heard is the one great failing of modern parenting.
Wow! You and the person you replied to are idiots. I can tell your parents wanted you guys to STFU all there time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benjamin Frost
Indeed.
Children should be seen and not heard. If only parents still adhered to those wise words. Children being seen and heard is the one great failing of modern parenting.
Children should be seen and not heard. If only parents still adhered to those wise words. Children being seen and heard is the one great failing of modern parenting.
And I can tell you were one of those children whose parents let him be heard; we all have to suffer the consequences now.
Comments
And if you thought helicopter parents were bad, this will give us parents that can't go 1 second without checking on their baby's status bringing in an era of super-p&ssy parents raising super-p#ssy children that can't take a step for fear they may hurt themselves.
Big Brother will be nothing compared to Big Parents who now know everything about their child for every moment. Not all will be this way, but now the door is opened.
It's not all bad. Maybe some abusive baby-sitters will be caught because of this.
Big Brother will be nothing compared to Big Parents who now know everything about their child for every moment. Not all will be this way, but now the door is opened.
Been opened for roughly a generation. We’re already seeing the effects.
I actually have first-hand experience of this. My 3rd daughter had a chromosome abnormality and a Cong. heart defect. Open heart surgery at 9 days old, and we spent more time in the hospital than at home during her life. And when we were at home- we couldn't go anywhere due to her immune system. A cold would send us back to the hospital. She passed away at 14 months old Christmas Day 2012. She's so much better for it. Ya- it sounds heartless Maestro- and it was the hardest thing we ever did- allowing her to pass away instead of electing for another 4+ surgeries that she likely wouldn't have survived- but her quality of life was terrible. Constant pain and she had way more fear/sadness than happiness. We would have been prolonging the inevitable. Just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should.
My heart goes out to you in a huge, huge way. I too know parents who have had really difficult decisions regarding kids who have no chance of getting "better". I won't get into personal stuff on a public site like this, but I understand firsthand some of the feelings you went through - though not nearly at the level and duration you did. RIP little one.
I seriously doubt Google ever sells your personal information. It is much more useful for them to keep it private. What Google sells is targeted advertising. Without a doubt they develop personal profiles when possible, but it does them no good to sell it to an advertiser who has no way to deliver ads on their own. The advertiser needs Google to deliver the ads based on their custom profile.
Google is not going to bother sending you a random ad when they can send you a targeted ad. If Google knows you are interested in a specific topic, they have a better chance of getting a click from you than if they sent you an ad that was completely irrelevant. In a way, you can think of targeted ads as a service. Ads are everywhere. Wouldn't you rather see ads about something you were interested in if you have to see ads anyway?
No I would not! How wedded to the disease of being "marketed to" are people these days anyway?
You are misunderstanding (or at least misusing) terminology (above). I'm perfectly fine with targeted advertising. It merely requires knowing what kind of site I'm visiting, and displaying reasonably relevant ads to that content. It's been around for at least 50-60 years, probably longer. Nothing wrong with it, other than it can be annoying.
I'm NOT fine with personally individualized advertising, which is truly immoral and dehumanizing if I didn't explicitly agree to it. THAT is what google does, and no one should be okay with it.
The former is fully ephemeral. You visit the site and an ad is delivered based on the site's content and perhaps other transient info like date/time/etc. End of story.
The latter is forever. The data mining companies (google's main competitive advantage these days is simply that they are arguably the best data miner in the world) gather as much personal data about each individual as they possibly can, both long-term and real-time data. They use that data to build detailed psychological profiles, movement patterns and purchase patterns of every single person they can identify, regardless of whether or not they have explicitly agreed to be mined. How can people not understand that this is unacceptable?
It's not seeing ads that's offensive, it's the data mining!
1) To jump onboard with a couple other folks here, I don't believe in data mining, especially for kids, and holy crap, now babies?!. As talented as many google employees are, they cannot guarantee that this data will be secure. Not now, and certainly not forever. They've already had their security broken by our government and by at least one foreign government. The amount of personal data they have is just too big a target to ever be considered "safe". How can you trust a relatively unknown company like this with personal, identifiable (believe me, it is), data that includes biometric and behavioral data?
2) How does this product send data outbound? WiFi? Bluetooth? Whatever it's doing is almost certain to use some kind of transmitter. Do you really want a transmitter essentially touching your infant?? Sure, we're all using cell phones, but, a) we're adults, b) we make the choice ourselves, and c) it took a long time to understand and quantify the levels at which those devices caused damage -- to adults! The allowed levels have changed a lot over the years. This is a big unknown with infants, who, as most of you should know, are far more susceptible to lots of materials and conditions than adults. EM hypersensitivity is unproven as of yet (though I know someone terribly affected), but higher doses of EM can be problematic for adults, so scale it down to an infant and consider whether you'd want to attach a WiFi transmitter to your baby's leg.
3) Again, others have mentioned this, but this product reeks of lazy parenting. Anything and everything that puts you in direct view/contact with your infant/baby/toddler/kid/teen is a plus. When you choose to have kids, it's life changing. You simply don't get to have long spells of uninterrupted time - and in general that's a good thing! You need to learn about your kids firsthand, not through some kind proxy parenting device.
Before closing, I do understand that there are special cases where a device like this could be of more value than the downsides listed above. Special needs kids, those with physical ailments, extended hospital stays, etc. I'm all for helping those families. But the sproutling picture of a parent sitting down eating a meal with their glasses of wine and the caption "Know if it's getting too loud." is just too much. If your baby is sleeping, and you want them to continue sleeping, be quiet! Good parenting requires direct contact: eyes-on baby, and vice-versa.
/rant off
I can see your point, it may be unethical, but it is not illegal, unlike selling your personal information is, as was alleged by the OP.
But let's put the blame where it really belongs, on the advertisers and the websites that host them. If the website owner does not put scripts in the page to allow tracking and the display of dynamic ads, Google would not have any way to track you or send you ads. Of course the funding for the websites comes from ads, so without them, the website might not exist.
Anyone who is concerned with what information Google is collecting about them is perfectly capable of preventing it with some simple steps such as never logging into Google services and using ad blockers like Ghostery. Unfortunately iOS devices do not permit ad blockers.
I can see your point, it may be unethical, but it is not illegal, unlike selling your personal information is, as was alleged by the OP.
But let's put the blame where it really belongs, on the advertisers and the websites that host them. If the website owner does not put scripts in the page to allow tracking and the display of dynamic ads, Google would not have any way to track you or send you ads. Of course the funding for the websites comes from ads, so without them, the website might not exist.
Anyone who is concerned with what information Google is collecting about them is perfectly capable of preventing it with some simple steps such as never logging into Google services and using ad blockers like Ghostery. Unfortunately iOS devices do not permit ad blockers.
Unethical vs. Illegal: I agree that there is a big difference, and perhaps we can even agree that while acting within the confines of the law, they are acting unethical. I have a big problem with that, and it bothers me to no end that so many people ignore it. Beyond that, from a legal standpoint, google and their ilk are almost completely unregulated. They can change their policies at any time and people are stuck/screwed. They will keep their treasure troves of data secret for exactly as long as it benefits them more to do so than to sell or give it away. Oh, except when they are legally compelled to give it away. Let's hope that part doesn't get out of control.
I don't blame the web site owners nearly as much as the data miners, simply because they are mostly small-fry consumers of the services, stuck in the middle. Big players have their own systems in place. The small players need to have something to bring in some revenue, and for many of them they have no other feasible alternatives. Google, on the other hand, knows exactly what they're doing. On the other hand, I do put a lot of blame on the grocery stores and real-world retailers that sell their customer data to data mining companies like axciom. Those guys make me want to puke.
I'm sorry to say, your last point is just not true. Google (and other data miners - many are ethically worse, just not as good at what they do) are collecting data about you without regard to whether you have a google account or use ad blockers. Think about gmail. Hundreds of millions of people are sending google data about not only themselves, but about others they communicate with. How do you stop people from sending emails TO YOU with personal information? And yes, mobile devices are extremely difficult to use anonymously (essentially impossible for anyone not highly technical and obsessively diligent), not just iOS. Unless you take ridiculously obscene steps, google and others, like your ISP, are collecting massive amounts of data about everything you do online.
Unethical vs. Illegal: I agree that there is a big difference, and perhaps we can even agree that while acting within the confines of the law, they are acting unethical. I have a big problem with that, and it bothers me to no end that so many people ignore it. Beyond that, from a legal standpoint, google and their ilk are almost completely unregulated. They can change their policies at any time and people are stuck/screwed. They will keep their treasure troves of data secret for exactly as long as it benefits them more to do so than to sell or give it away. Oh, except when they are legally compelled to give it away. Let's hope that part doesn't get out of control.
I don't blame the web site owners nearly as much as the data miners, simply because they are mostly small-fry consumers of the services, stuck in the middle. Big players have their own systems in place. The small players need to have something to bring in some revenue, and for many of them they have no other feasible alternatives. Google, on the other hand, knows exactly what they're doing. On the other hand, I do put a lot of blame on the grocery stores and real-world retailers that sell their customer data to data mining companies like axciom. Those guys make me want to puke.
I'm sorry to say, your last point is just not true. Google (and other data miners - many are ethically worse, just not as good at what they do) are collecting data about you without regard to whether you have a google account or use ad blockers. Think about gmail. Hundreds of millions of people are sending google data about not only themselves, but about others they communicate with. How do you stop people from sending emails TO YOU with personal information? And yes, mobile devices are extremely difficult to use anonymously (essentially impossible for anyone not highly technical and obsessively diligent), not just iOS. Unless you take ridiculously obscene steps, google and others, like your ISP, are collecting massive amounts of data about everything you do online.
I think we agree on most everything. Welcome to the 21st century. There are people in third world countries who have no digital 'paper trail' whatsoever. They don't know anything but anonymity, but they long to be online and part of the global community. These are our times.
Perhaps, but I still think your delusional conspiracy theory is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure that is not how Google works.
I seriously doubt Google ever sells your personal information. It is much more useful for them to keep it private. What Google sells is targeted advertising. Without a doubt they develop personal profiles when possible, but it does them no good to sell it to an advertiser who has no way to deliver ads on their own. The advertiser needs Google to deliver the ads based on their custom profile.
Google is not going to bother sending you a random ad when they can send you a targeted ad. If Google knows you are interested in a specific topic, they have a better chance of getting a click from you than if they sent you an ad that was completely irrelevant. In a way, you can think of targeted ads as a service. Ads are everywhere. Wouldn't you rather see ads about something you were interested in if you have to see ads anyway?
I was going to respond on a few items but blah64 seems to have done a good job at expressing my viewpoint. Hardly delusional conspiracy theory, and you give way too much credit to google. They are like samsung - pathetic, and I do my best to avoid giving them any of my data. However, I got bitten when I bought a Nest thermostat and they suddenly became google, and they suddenly went from saying that they will run completely separately to now saying they can't promise that the data from my Nest won't be mined (straight from google). So, as soon as I replace my heat pump this fall, bye bye Nest. Just warning people about the future likelihood of google buying this company.
But one thing you said bothers me: "Google is not going to bother sending you a random ad when they can send you a targeted ad." The entire point of my post WAS targeted ads and not random ads. Can't you see that? Based on what the baby is doing or feeling, google can mine that data and 'target' me with ads related to what I may want to do for my baby. This is BEYOND acceptable in my opinion!! Completely wrong. If it's too bright or loud in the room for the baby to sleep comfortably, I want the product to TELL ME the information and let ME assess what to do about it. I swear to you, when google owns this company, the day that the stupid Sprouting tells me that it's too bright in my baby's room, I WILL get advertisements from STUPID OVERPRICED mini blind companies who will gladly send someone from 80 miles away to install mini blinds that I can install myself for 1/3 the price. "Wouldn't I rather see ads about something I was interested in if I have to see ads anyway?" NO. ABSOLUTELY NOT!!
I think we agree on most everything. Welcome to the 21st century. There are people in third world countries who have no digital 'paper trail' whatsoever. They don't know anything but anonymity, but they long to be online and part of the global community. These are our times.
Wow, so justification for the likes of google is, 'Welcome to the 21st century'?!?!? Very sad. So, just roll over and take it, since it's the 21st century?!?!? Unbelievable. Reminds me of when Coach Bobby Knight got into trouble telling a reporter that when you are being raped and there is nothing you can do about it, you may as well relax and enjoy it. Don't be a sheep. Fight against it!! Do what is right to fight unethical behavior.
I think we agree on most everything. Welcome to the 21st century. There are people in third world countries who have no digital 'paper trail' whatsoever. They don't know anything but anonymity, but they long to be online and part of the global community. These are our times.
It's an interesting point about third world countries with little access to online services. It makes me wonder if there's a natural path for cultures to go through, or whether they will learn from our mistakes as "leaders" in digital technology. Will they necessarily follow a path where all the early users go "Woo Hoo! We can put anything we want online!" and overshare more and more and more until they finally realize they've been taken for fools by big data mining and marketers? Or will they be able to learn from places that have already been there and pulled back from the edge to a more rational way of life (if/when we make it there!) where consumers are actually in control of their own personal data? Hopefully the latter, but it will be years before we find out. The problem is that entire categories of "free" services the data miners are providing these days are so addicting that it's really, really hard for people to let go of them. These are drugs, just like chemical drugs; they provide pleasure, but with consequences. That right there should tell people something, but I think most people are so deeply embedded and addicted, that it's too late for many.
If we more or less agree on most of this, that's cool. But I too, take a little issue with the "Welcome to the 21st century" notion. Mostly because it reminds me of Scott McNealy's quote "You have zero privacy anyway. Get over it." Made me so angry I wanted to punch him in the mouth every time I heard other people parrot his idiotic words. (No, I didn't have that feeling with you right now, but the comment vaguely reminds me of his). I do feel like as a society we're slowly pulling back from the edge, especially with all the various "private" communication apps and services that are popping up these days. The success that some of them are having gives me hope, but there's a long road ahead of us, and the Internet of Things is going to be a big challenge.
Anyway, the 21st century comment made me want to say this: As we move toward more and more data mining and surveillance, what I find is that the gap between basically selling your soul and handing over the keys to your brain for commercial purposes to everyone and everything, and living in a cave is growing smaller and smaller. As the reach and efficiency of these companies (and govt organizations) gets stronger and stronger, it's harder to avoid. Frankly, I don't want to live in a cave, and I don't want to whore myself out to companies that want to know every fricking detail of what I do and who I am. That's just evil and dehumanizing. The gap between these two modalities has become extremely difficult to navigate.
Wow, so justification for the likes of google is, 'Welcome to the 21st century'?!?!? Very sad. So, just roll over and take it, since it's the 21st century?!?!? Unbelievable. Reminds me of when Coach Bobby Knight got into trouble telling a reporter that when you are being raped and there is nothing you can do about it, you may as well relax and enjoy it. Don't be a sheep. Fight against it!! Do what is right to fight unethical behavior.
Thank you! Both for being a fighter and for pointing out the Bobby Knight quote. I'd long forgotten about that, but I think it illustrates perfectly what so many people are doing now. What's happening is vile and reprehensible, and most people are still just laying back and taking it even though they feel violated (social media firms are near the very bottom in "trustability" surveys, so people DO know better, they're just not rebelling in big numbers yet).
Knight's exact quote was: "I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it". Sick man. Just like McNealy.
Please keep spreading the word, and I see myself using this quote a lot in the future to illustrate the point. Thanks.
Back on topic, I have at least 3 big problems with this product.
1) To jump onboard with a couple other folks here, I don't believe in data mining, especially for kids, and holy crap, now babies?!. As talented as many google employees are, they cannot guarantee that this data will be secure. Not now, and certainly not forever. They've already had their security broken by our government and by at least one foreign government. The amount of personal data they have is just too big a target to ever be considered "safe". How can you trust a relatively unknown company like this with personal, identifiable (believe me, it is), data that includes biometric and behavioral data?
2) How does this product send data outbound? WiFi? Bluetooth? Whatever it's doing is almost certain to use some kind of transmitter. Do you really want a transmitter essentially touching your infant?? Sure, we're all using cell phones, but, a) we're adults, b) we make the choice ourselves, and c) it took a long time to understand and quantify the levels at which those devices caused damage -- to adults! The allowed levels have changed a lot over the years. This is a big unknown with infants, who, as most of you should know, are far more susceptible to lots of materials and conditions than adults. EM hypersensitivity is unproven as of yet (though I know someone terribly affected), but higher doses of EM can be problematic for adults, so scale it down to an infant and consider whether you'd want to attach a WiFi transmitter to your baby's leg.
3) Again, others have mentioned this, but this product reeks of lazy parenting. Anything and everything that puts you in direct view/contact with your infant/baby/toddler/kid/teen is a plus. When you choose to have kids, it's life changing. You simply don't get to have long spells of uninterrupted time - and in general that's a good thing! You need to learn about your kids firsthand, not through some kind proxy parenting device.
Before closing, I do understand that there are special cases where a device like this could be of more value than the downsides listed above. Special needs kids, those with physical ailments, extended hospital stays, etc. I'm all for helping those families. But the sproutling picture of a parent sitting down eating a meal with their glasses of wine and the caption "Know if it's getting too loud." is just too much. If your baby is sleeping, and you want them to continue sleeping, be quiet! Good parenting requires direct contact: eyes-on baby, and vice-versa.
/rant off
Well you summed up nicely what I was saying in a long winded way. I have told a number of people who all have older kids now and they all said the same as you, learn about you kids first hand.
I do not know this as fact but I suspect Nest will be mining all this data, the question will be where will all this data or analysis of the data end up. You know researchers we love to get their hands on this kind of data on every aspect of a babies day. But is here is the rub on this, you pay Nest $200+ for the product and you get nothing in return, Normally if you are involved in a research study they pay you. My daughter participated in a research study for concussions and they gave her a fed ipod and paid her $200.
Unlike google who give people a free email account in exchange to freely read your email, Nest is making you pay for the them to make money off your babies activities data.
You don't want your three year old? Poor soul!
????
Indeed.
Children should be seen and not heard. If only parents still adhered to those wise words. Children being seen and heard is the one great failing of modern parenting.
Wow! You and the person you replied to are idiots. I can tell your parents wanted you guys to STFU all there time.
Indeed.
Children should be seen and not heard. If only parents still adhered to those wise words. Children being seen and heard is the one great failing of modern parenting.
And I can tell you were one of those children whose parents let him be heard; we all have to suffer the consequences now.
If this isn't the perfect PSA; calling on all parents to beat their children more, I don't know what is.