Sources of PPC G5, 8500, Sahara rumors

thttht
Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
Hmm... I think this may be the source of the Register's November 2001 PPC G5 rumor (as seen in JYD's AI <a href="http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001805"; target="_blank">thread</a> some time ago). Or at least something along the same lines. It is from <a href="http://www.digit-life.com:"; target="_blank">www.digit-life.com:</a>



<a href="http://www.digit-life.com/articles/digest0110/"; target="_blank">October '2001 Hardware Digest</a>

By Vladimir Romanchenko




... Some details about new PowerPC G5 were said by Motorola in its turn: its PowerPC 8500 features 10-step conveyor, new structure of internal processor bus, altered and modified NPU and FPU. Besides, processor will appear in 32-and 64-bit variants on Motorola's new HiP7 process (0,13 micron, 7 layers of copper, SOI, dielectrics with low k coefficient). A serial chip sample will not, most likely, appear up to the end of the year. Chip will cost $575 for 1,2 GHz and $695 for 1,6 GHz version, but these are just preliminary calculations.



Besides the super economical PowerPC 405LP, IBM presented the first "gigahertz" PowerPC on the forum. First, PowerPC 750FX will appear already this year with 750 MHz clock rate, but it will raise up to a gigahertz and higher in subsequent versions. The chip will become the first created by IBM with the new 0,13 micron CMOS9S technical process.



PowerPC 750FX features all technological novelties: copper wiring, SOI technology, modern low-capacity dielectrics. All these innovations joined together considerably reduce energy consumption that will allow to raise clock rate at least up to 1 GHz and the power consumption will make only 5 W. The first 750FX samples should appear in January, and it will be aimed at network equipment.



Another PowerPC from IBM - codenamed "Sahara" with 700 MHz - 1 GHz clock rates that will obviously shift Mac processors balance not for the benefit of Motorola with its PowerPC G4.



Sahara will come to replace G3 processors used in present iBook and iMac lines. It is expected that Sahara processor will be constructively made with use of copper connections and SOI; such combination of technical process still used only in PowerPC processors made for Unix servers.



According to preliminary data Sahara's architecture will be similar to AltiVec from Motorola ("AltiVeclike acceleration"), however, AltiVec coprocessor won't be required.



Mass shippings of Sahara are expected only in 2002, and shippings of small parties to interested OEM-manufacturers are expected to begin in November. Besides Apple, the new processor interests Epson, Kyocera and Nokia that ordered Sahara preliminary. ...




This has some credibility because it's a report from microprocessor forum, so the source is from the companies themselves. A lot can change between what is said there and when a product ships though.



Note that if Motorola presents a paper at Microprocessor Forum, it's a paper study most of the time and a shipping product won't appear at least until a year later. "Sampling" in the semiconductor business means that a chip has just been produced in hardware. There is a good 8 to 12 months of debugging and optimizing left to do before shipping for today's CPUs.



10 stage execution pipeline and 1.2 to 1.6 GHz sounds a lot like the Register and other rumors floating around before MWSF02. A lot of people do not understand what sampling means. Btw, those estimated prices for this PPC 8500 is hugely expensive. Sounds like a 150+ sq mm die size to me, if for real.



The IBM Sahara I and Sahara II PowerPC rumors are also seen here as well. If IBM doesn't increase the pipeline depth of these processors, they aren't going to be good for Apple's Mac computers except for the iBook.



And this is from July of last year when Motorola qualified its HiP 7 (0.13 micron) process. Guess what sort of chip is in the picture.



"Music is being played through the actual HiP7 part:"





[ 06-19-2002: Message edited by: THT ]</p>
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 44
    leonisleonis Posts: 3,427member
    so.....what does it mean?
  • Reply 2 of 44
    nebagakidnebagakid Posts: 2,692member
    I unt bit confused
  • Reply 3 of 44
    havanashavanas Posts: 99member
    So thats a G5 in the picture? and they were sampling a year ago? The register got confused and was a bit optimistic?



    So does that mean we can have a G5 next month?

    gimme gimme gimme!!!
  • Reply 4 of 44
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,165member
    Sounds like the G5 could possibly make it's debut this year!
  • Reply 5 of 44
    I can state with relative certainty that we recieved the same leak that The Register recieved that led to those 1.2 1.4 1.6 Ghz G5 rumors...



    It wasn't that. This is new info- the Sahara stuff wasn't rumor though, it was fact. Saharas are in the newest iteration of the iBook.
  • Reply 6 of 44
    foamyfoamy Posts: 55member
    Hey Ma. I'll be out back in the yard doin' some chip testin' on Mot's new G5 if anyone comes hither lookin' fer me.
  • Reply 7 of 44
    overtoastyovertoasty Posts: 439member
    [quote]Originally posted by Jonathan:

    <strong>I can state with relative certainty that we recieved the same leak that The Register recieved that led to those 1.2 1.4 1.6 Ghz G5 rumors...



    It wasn't that. This is new info- the Sahara stuff wasn't rumor though, it was fact. Saharas are in the newest iteration of the iBook.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    But according to the rumors in the latest Dorsal thread, Apple couldn't order quite what they wanted with the Moto 8500 ... so they balked and went to IBM last year - this was triangulated by a few others on the board (assuming those "others" are, in fact, real people, not just some dis-information cut-outs)...



    I'm sure I speak for a lot of folks on AI when I say: even if they are real people, I can no longer parse this new info into any sort of prediction, I just don't know enough chips to munge this and all the latest Dorsal stuff.



    So ...



    ... with all the latest chip rumors, we've got a swimming pool full of sacrificed goat entrails, and that's a lot of sausage, but as to how to build a coherent structure out of 'em ...



    ... any takers?
  • Reply 8 of 44
    kidredkidred Posts: 2,402member
    [quote]Originally posted by OverToasty:

    <strong>



    But according to the rumors in the latest Dorsal thread, Apple couldn't order quite what they wanted with the Moto 8500 ... so they balked and went to IBM last year - this was triangulated by a few others on the board (assuming those "others" are, in fact, real people, not just some dis-information cut-outs)...



    I'm sure I speak for a lot of folks on AI when I say: even if they are real people, I can no longer parse this new info into any sort of prediction, I just don't know enough chips to munge this and all the latest Dorsal stuff.



    So ...



    ... with all the latest chip rumors, we've got a swimming pool full of sacrificed goat entrails, and that's a lot of sausage, but as to how to build a coherent structure out of 'em ...



    ... any takers?</strong><hr></blockquote>



    If I follow my gut and believe half of what I read/hear, Apple didn't like Moto's planned G5 and canceled orders. That doesn't mean that Moto still isn't involved and didn't go with another chip design in place of the original.
  • Reply 9 of 44
    programmerprogrammer Posts: 3,409member
    So this is kinda-sorta confirmation of TheRegister... but not really. Nothing to interesting about that.





    The statement that Saraha or its sequel will have AltiVec compatible SIMD, however, is much more interesting... especially if you combine this with the recent statement by Apple that the iBook will remain with the G3. The main reason people want a G4 in the iBook is to get AltiVec, but what if you could get AltiVec in a G3?
  • Reply 10 of 44
    msleemslee Posts: 143member
    the IBM rumor is legit, i think.



    if you were apple, and IBM had a monster PPC-compliant CPU, wouldn't you persuade them to get into the blade and workstation market with it?



    Get my drift...
  • Reply 11 of 44
    mugwumpmugwump Posts: 233member
    That picture: The Backyard BBQ G5 Grill. "Bring on the hot dogs, it's been runnin' fer 20 minutes now!"
  • Reply 12 of 44
    [quote]Originally posted by Programmer:

    <strong>...



    The main reason people want a G4 in the iBook is to get AltiVec, but what if you could get AltiVec in a G3?</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Then...I would get an iBook, of course.
  • Reply 13 of 44
    rickagrickag Posts: 1,626member
    THT



    Wasn't that photograph posted somewhere on Motorola's website?



    Like you say, celebrating qualifing the HiP7 process. I would guess it to be either a Motorola G3 or G4, probably G3. Could be the MPC 8540, but that would due Apple little good in the short term because it is not intended for desktop computers.



    Oh and you did say what chip you thought it to be.
  • Reply 14 of 44
    thttht Posts: 3,063member
    <strong>Originally posted by rickag:

    Wasn't that photograph posted somewhere on Motorola's website?</strong>



    No, it is from the website of the band Moto hired to play at the qualification party.



    <strong>Like you say, celebrating qualifing the HiP7 process. I would guess it to be either a Motorola G3 or G4, probably G3. Could be the MPC 8540, but that would due Apple little good in the short term because it is not intended for desktop computers.</strong>



    No, I highly doubt that it's host processor. Odds are extremely, near certain, that the HiP7 part in the picture is the Moto DSP56321 chip, a digital signal processor. It was the first thing produced in the HiP 7 fab.
  • Reply 15 of 44
    thttht Posts: 3,063member
    <strong>Originally posted by Programmer:

    So this is kinda-sorta confirmation of TheRegister... but not really. Nothing to interesting about that.</strong>



    I was curious as to where all these G5 and PPC 8500 rumors come from, and it seemingly came from an obvious place, Microprocessor Forum 2001, not some internal Moto source. But who knows.



    <strong>The statement that Saraha or its sequel will have AltiVec compatible SIMD, however, is much more interesting... especially if you combine this with the recent statement by Apple that the iBook will remain with the G3. The main reason people want a G4 in the iBook is to get AltiVec, but what if you could get AltiVec in a G3?</strong>



    This Sahara IBM PPC looks to be a PowerPC 750fx with an IBM SIMD unit. No, not useful for any of Apple's current Macintosh computers since a Moto G4 can be used.



    Unless Apple plans on switching to IBM CPUs completely, having different SIMD units to program to seems like a terrible move to me.
  • Reply 16 of 44
    jcgjcg Posts: 777member
    [quote]

    Unless Apple plans on switching to IBM CPUs completely, having different SIMD units to program to seems like a terrible move to me.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>



    Chips, and instruction sets can be backward engineered, and AltiVec has been out on the market long enough for IBM to have done just that. Case in point, AMD and Intell. This started out as a Tech sharing agreement back in the 286/386 days, but it didnt cary through to the Pentium as far as I know. Both offerings run the same software, and take advantage of Microsofts SIMD instructions in Windows.
  • Reply 17 of 44
    programmerprogrammer Posts: 3,409member
    [quote]Originally posted by THT:

    <strong>[qb]This Sahara IBM PPC looks to be a PowerPC 750fx with an IBM SIMD unit. No, not useful for any of Apple's current Macintosh computers since a Moto G4 can be used.



    Unless Apple plans on switching to IBM CPUs completely, having different SIMD units to program to seems like a terrible move to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    The implication above was that the IBM SIMD unit would be AltiVec compatible. If Apple is going to use any IBM chips in their machines IBM will obviously have to have AltiVec compatible SIMD units (no matter what anybody says, Apple will not dump AltiVec and this is the right decision). Since the Sahara places much more emphasis on power savings and low heat than the G4 does, it would be sensible to use an AltiVec compatible Sahara in the iBook.
  • Reply 18 of 44
    rickagrickag Posts: 1,626member
    THT



    Thank you for the information, I always learn something from your posts.
  • Reply 19 of 44
    Based on what I've read in the news and boards, I think the G5 chip Apple will be using is a version of the POWER5 which is aimed at the blade sever market and workstation market. It is based on the POWER4. This is a 5th generation version of the POWER (hence G5) and IBM only. This would work with the "No Moto G5 rumors" and "Apple is switching to IBM as a single supplier" and "Apple is working on a G5".



    I just don't think we will see them until Jan 03 at MWSF.
  • Reply 20 of 44
    kidredkidred Posts: 2,402member
    [quote]Originally posted by Programmer:

    <strong>



    The implication above was that the IBM SIMD unit would be AltiVec compatible. If Apple is going to use any IBM chips in their machines IBM will obviously have to have AltiVec compatible SIMD units (no matter what anybody says, Apple will not dump AltiVec and this is the right decision). Since the Sahara places much more emphasis on power savings and low heat than the G4 does, it would be sensible to use an AltiVec compatible Sahara in the iBook.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Funny thing is, is that Apple and the Mac Zone catalog refers to is as "Velocity Engine" and I can't any mention of "Altivec" on Apple's site, it's all velocity engine. Is this for a reason? I thought for a while it was referred to as Altivec, if that's changed, maybe because if they go with an IBM with SIMD unit they can still call it the same velocity engine as the G4?
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