They really need a permanent, solid piece of hardware built into their menu ordering system or at the window of their "drive-thru".
By the way, at your local McDonald's do they have an actual employee stand outside to take lunch orders with a wireless order pad? This is something they've been doing in my area.
I imagine it's used for more busy locations. I know that's common with In-N-Out Burger, although I can't recall if they also take your card. It might just be so they can start your order much further back from the regular order taker/
Further proof Apple has no idea what you buy since they can't come up with the numbers themselves (to get their 0.15% cut). Hence the agreements to allow audits of the CC companies numbers to make sure everything is on the up and up.
I imagine they have the multinationals report what the banks owe them, but there is probably some trust going on since they all could collude to keep Apple's profits down. Although I don't think Apple either expects that nor really cares as this is a drop in the market for them.
The credit card integration is a stealthy bit of judo on Apple's part. They will eventually disintermediate the CC companies entirely.
I don't see that ever happening, at least not because of Apple's direct influence.
Agreed! I can't see Apple getting into a 3% gross margin, highly regulated business -- leave that to others.
I hope Discover gets on board -- Accepted most places, 2% minimum cashback on every purchase, 1 month free float!
Also, when Apple Pay gets accepted for larger purchases, I'd like them to take the debit card from brokerage savings/checking accounts like Scottrade Bank.
I can see reward cards from merchants work the same as the credit cards:
You use the iPhone camera to capture the reward card, You can activate the cards while you use Apple Pay.
oh yeah, I can see something like that being offered from a store or at a merchant level, no problem.
But from Apple ? Nope.
edit: I'd like to see the banks give some reward as well.
Record profits have been posted by the banks both here and in Australia yoy for some time now.
I doubt that will ever change. I think that was just a lot of speculation as to how Apple might make ?Pay work.
Since they aren't an intermediary for the purchase their audits would have to contain very specific user data for them to create a rewards program. I don't see that happening. They make more money by not dealing with that.
If this is how Discover does business, I known why I never hear about them anymore.
What is really frustrating is that Discover had been implying that they were actively working toward adopting Apple Pay by introduction or early in the process. This is a much different story from the CEO now that basically says Discover was BSing their customers. Sad. Glad I now have my new American Express card on Apple Pay!!
I can see reward cards from merchants work the same as the credit cards:
You use the iPhone camera to capture the reward card, You can activate the cards while you use Apple Pay.
oh yeah, I can see something like that being offered from a store or at a merchant level, no problem.
But from Apple ? Nope.
I think that merchant rewards/loyalty cards/coupons are just a permutation of iWallet -- not too difficult to implement, and doesn't require TouchID or NFC (but those could be used to advantage if Apple allows developer access).
Anyway, Apple could provide a generic app, say iRewards, which provides the basic mechanism (capture rewards cards, woken up up by iBeacons/WiFi/NFC, exchange info with merchant, capture receipts ...). Then merchants could interface the generic iRewards app through standard APIs -- possibly as an iOS Extension to iWallet.
All of the above are activities associated with shopping or buying ... Apple Pay is about Paying ... the two need not be intertwined to effectively and conveniently work together!
IMO, this where the CurrentC Consortium is way off base -- they could have their [user approved] tracking, user convience, security and recourse ...
And, I suspect as Apple Pay gains acceptance -- the reduction in fraud, processing and insurance costs -- will allow the banks to offer incentives to the merchants (reduced transaction fees) and consumers (cashback incentives/rewards).
1) Thanks for the link. That certainly seems more authoritative than other things I've read.
2) So how could Apple do this without being an intermediary or getting highly specific audit data that would make it easier if they were an intermediary?
The Passbook app records when you make a purchase (which is already does) and that info is compiled in the app and sent back to Apple as a generalized usage value* tied to your account, but only if the device owner wants to be in part of the rewards program.
The multinationals send Apple a generalized usage* value to Apple with each customer's account which is then linked to an Apple ID, but only if the device owner wants to be in part of the rewards program.
The financial institutions send Apple a generalized usage* value to Apple with each customer's account which is then linked to an Apple ID, but only if the device owner wants to be in part of the rewards program.
The first one seems like the easiest to implement, but I see an issue. For example, let's say it's a measly 1% gain on ITS content. I then make a $10,000 purchase using ?Pay and then return the purchase but use my physical card. If the banks aren't in the loop with the rewards program I should now have $100 in iTS credit at me point.
The other options I don't care for at all because it means the auditing has to be tied to each user's Apple ID.
Outside of that I can only think of giveaways, as mentioned in the article you linked to.
Am I missing an option that is both simple for Apple to implement, keeps accurate tallies, and doesn't let Apple know what you're doing with your ?Pay purchases?
* Usage value can be either the number of times or the dollar value used within a given time frame.
edit: I'd like to see the banks give some reward as well.
Record profits have been posted by the banks both here and in Australia yoy for some time now.
There are ways to make money every time you make a purchase. You start by having great credit so you can get the best cards. Superficially one can go with the cards with no annual fees and lowest interest rates, but I like to weigh that against rewards. Sallie Mae has a card with no annual fee that gives you 1% on everything and 5% back on the first $250 you spend on fuel and grocery, and $750 you spend on books. That breaks down to $12.50 per month for filling up your car and getting groceries, which I always exceed, and $37.50 for books, which I don't, but it's still a good deal. For the former that's $12.50 × 12 = $150 per year just not the first $250 I spend per month in those two categories.
I put nearly every purchase on multiple cards which yields be a couple grand back in cash which I always take as account credit for paying off my cards, save for my Airline card which is used specifically for purchasing airlines tickets (flying first class for free this Thanksgiving with points gained from using my free card just once). Other cards I have for different benefits, including an Amazon card, which is great for Amazon.com purchases, pharmacies, and food.
I also have a general use card which is 1.5% on all purchases. Unfortunately this card has a fee associated with it, but it's also my oldest card which would hurt my credit if I wanted to get rid of it a the average age of my cards would drop significantly.
Finally, I keep track of which card is why by using a label maker to place labels on each card I carried to know which is best for which kind of establishment. I know it by heart now but I'd still like an option to choose my ?Pay card image, just as I can choose to have a personalized card sent to me for free from most(all?) of the card issuers. I'm sure there are some people with multiple corporate cards or cards with their spouse that look exactly the same in ?Pay except for the last 4 digits shown, but are unique in the physical form that its not's confusing so I expect this to arrive by iOS 9.
edit: I'd like to see the banks give some reward as well.
Record profits have been posted by the banks both here and in Australia yoy for some time now.
There are ways to make money every time you make a purchase. You start by having great credit so you can get the best cards. Superficially one can go with the cards with no annual fees and lowest interest rates, but I like to weigh that against rewards. Sallie Mae has a card with no annual fee that gives you 1% on everything and 5% back on the first $250 you spend on fuel and grocery, and $750 you spend on books. That breaks down to $12.50 per month for filling up your car and getting groceries, which I always exceed, and $37.50 for books, which I don't, but it's still a good deal. For the former that's $12.50 × 12 = $150 per year just not the first $250 I spend per month in those two categories.
I put nearly every purchase on multiple cards which yields be a couple grand back in cash which I always take as account credit for paying off my cards, save for my Airline card which is used specifically for purchasing airlines tickets (flying first class for free this Thanksgiving with points gained from using my free card just once). Other cards I have for different benefits, including an Amazon card, which is great for Amazon.com purchases, pharmacies, and food.
I also have a general use card which is 1.5% on all purchases. Unfortunately this card has a fee associated with it, but it's also my oldest card which would hurt my credit if I wanted to get rid of it a the average age of my cards would drop significantly.
Finally, I keep track of which card is why by using a label maker to place labels on each card I carried to know which is best for which kind of establishment. I know it by heart now but I'd still like an option to choose my ?Pay card image, just as I can choose to have a personalized card sent to me for free from most(all?) of the card issuers. I'm sure there are some people with multiple corporate cards or cards with their spouse that look exactly the same in ?Pay except for the last 4 digits shown, but are unique in the physical form that its not's confusing so I expect this to arrive by iOS 9.
I haven't found anything that beats Discover for cashback rewards -- though some merchants still don't accept Discover.
If this is how Discover does business, I known why I never hear about them anymore.
There have been 4 major credit cards: Visa, Master, Ame. Express and Discover. In the last 10 years, I have heard only Visa, Master and Ame. Exp. Discover is less popular than iTune cards seriously.
in 2 years, Apple will totally rule the mobile payment world when all iPhone models are Apple Pay supported. Hopefully, Google can come up with a biometric phone to bring Google Wallet wider usage. For MCX, probably is somewhere in local Convenient or flower shops in the some corner of an dead town.
Unless they make it wireless it's already easy, in my experience. They just pick it up and pass out the window like they're handing you food and you put your phone up to it. It's definitely faster than handing them your card to swipe, not to mention more safe since on many levels, especially since they can't secretly copy your card's magnetic strip out of view.
We've had NFC terminals here in Aus for ages and they are indeed wireless. The terminal sits in a charging dock when not in use. They remove it from the dock and hold it out of the window for you to tap your card/ phone to when completing a transaction. This is also how restaurant transactions take place with Chip & Pin/ NFC - they bring the terminal to you or you pay on the way out.
I'm a little pissed that the two CCs that I use, Discover & GM MasterCard by Capitol One, aren't covered by Apple Pay. I knew that Discover wasn't in as yet, but thought they would be shortly. So, no problem, I can use my GM MasterCard since the issuer bank is Capitol One. To my surprise GM MasterCard is not in Apple Pay ???? After getting the card rejected, I contacted Apple and was informed that the reward aspect on the MasterCard for GM dollar rewards, excluded the card; at least for now. Capitol One was not including it in the system.
Now seeing the comments by the CEO of Discover Card, I'm getting pessimistic about Discover coming aboard in the near future. I contact DiscoverCard, shortly after the Apple Pay announcement and was told that Apple & Discover are in discussions, with the expectation that Discover would join shortly. After seeing this article in AppleInsider, it doesn't seem that it's coming soon,... Maybe by the end of the decade?
I'll need to be assessing what CC cards that I'm using,and consider switching to those having Apple Pay features.
No, it's a much larger pad of some kind (I don't know if it's an iPad) with a large case around it and an antenna that sticks up, presumably transmitting the order back into the store. It's about the size of a clipboard.
The first one seems like the easiest to implement, but I see an issue. For example, let's say it's a measly 1% gain on ITS content. I then make a $10,000 purchase using ?Pay and then return the purchase but use my physical card. If the banks aren't in the loop with the rewards program I should now have $100 in iTS credit at me point.
* Usage value can be either the number of times or the dollar value used within a given time frame.
How would that work if the merchant don't have the CC number you used to make the purchase with ApplePay to begin with? All they have is a one time use token, that only the banks can use to get the CC account it was generated for. I imagine if you use ApplePay to buy somethng, your refund also has to go through ApplePay to credit the CC you used.
How would that work if the merchant don't have the CC number you used to make the purchase with ApplePay to begin with? All they have is a one time use token, that only the banks can use to get the CC account it was generated for. I imagine if you use ApplePay to buy somethng, your refund also has to go through ApplePay to credit the CC you used.
And the bank also knows that the purchase was charged to a token generated by ApplePay and thus will change the charge amount on that token when you ask for a refund on a purchase. Thus Apple will not get their cut and you will not get any iRewards point for that purchase. But my guess is that the merchant will refund the purchase using the token. It's the number that will appears on your receipt and the transaction number they use for the purchase.
Comments
Something like this?
Agreed! I can't see Apple getting into a 3% gross margin, highly regulated business -- leave that to others.
I hope Discover gets on board -- Accepted most places, 2% minimum cashback on every purchase, 1 month free float!
Also, when Apple Pay gets accepted for larger purchases, I'd like them to take the debit card from brokerage savings/checking accounts like Scottrade Bank.
oh yeah, I can see something like that being offered from a store or at a merchant level, no problem.
But from Apple ? Nope.
edit: I'd like to see the banks give some reward as well.
Record profits have been posted by the banks both here and in Australia yoy for some time now.
The pertinent articles that seem to be the voice for the rumors. Other sites are mirroring these two as far as I can tell. If they're accurate it should be apparent within a few weeks.
http://bankinnovation.net/2014/10/apple-pay-loyalty-due-to-start-within-the-year/
http://digiday.com/brands/apple-bringing-apple-pay-iad/
If this is how Discover does business, I known why I never hear about them anymore.
What is really frustrating is that Discover had been implying that they were actively working toward adopting Apple Pay by introduction or early in the process. This is a much different story from the CEO now that basically says Discover was BSing their customers. Sad. Glad I now have my new American Express card on Apple Pay!!
I think that merchant rewards/loyalty cards/coupons are just a permutation of iWallet -- not too difficult to implement, and doesn't require TouchID or NFC (but those could be used to advantage if Apple allows developer access).
Anyway, Apple could provide a generic app, say iRewards, which provides the basic mechanism (capture rewards cards, woken up up by iBeacons/WiFi/NFC, exchange info with merchant, capture receipts ...). Then merchants could interface the generic iRewards app through standard APIs -- possibly as an iOS Extension to iWallet.
All of the above are activities associated with shopping or buying ... Apple Pay is about Paying ... the two need not be intertwined to effectively and conveniently work together!
IMO, this where the CurrentC Consortium is way off base -- they could have their [user approved] tracking, user convience, security and recourse ...
And, I suspect as Apple Pay gains acceptance -- the reduction in fraud, processing and insurance costs -- will allow the banks to offer incentives to the merchants (reduced transaction fees) and consumers (cashback incentives/rewards).
1) Thanks for the link. That certainly seems more authoritative than other things I've read.
2) So how could Apple do this without being an intermediary or getting highly specific audit data that would make it easier if they were an intermediary?
The first one seems like the easiest to implement, but I see an issue. For example, let's say it's a measly 1% gain on ITS content. I then make a $10,000 purchase using ?Pay and then return the purchase but use my physical card. If the banks aren't in the loop with the rewards program I should now have $100 in iTS credit at me point.
The other options I don't care for at all because it means the auditing has to be tied to each user's Apple ID.
Outside of that I can only think of giveaways, as mentioned in the article you linked to.
Am I missing an option that is both simple for Apple to implement, keeps accurate tallies, and doesn't let Apple know what you're doing with your ?Pay purchases?
* Usage value can be either the number of times or the dollar value used within a given time frame.
There are ways to make money every time you make a purchase. You start by having great credit so you can get the best cards. Superficially one can go with the cards with no annual fees and lowest interest rates, but I like to weigh that against rewards. Sallie Mae has a card with no annual fee that gives you 1% on everything and 5% back on the first $250 you spend on fuel and grocery, and $750 you spend on books. That breaks down to $12.50 per month for filling up your car and getting groceries, which I always exceed, and $37.50 for books, which I don't, but it's still a good deal. For the former that's $12.50 × 12 = $150 per year just not the first $250 I spend per month in those two categories.
I put nearly every purchase on multiple cards which yields be a couple grand back in cash which I always take as account credit for paying off my cards, save for my Airline card which is used specifically for purchasing airlines tickets (flying first class for free this Thanksgiving with points gained from using my free card just once). Other cards I have for different benefits, including an Amazon card, which is great for Amazon.com purchases, pharmacies, and food.
I also have a general use card which is 1.5% on all purchases. Unfortunately this card has a fee associated with it, but it's also my oldest card which would hurt my credit if I wanted to get rid of it a the average age of my cards would drop significantly.
Finally, I keep track of which card is why by using a label maker to place labels on each card I carried to know which is best for which kind of establishment. I know it by heart now but I'd still like an option to choose my ?Pay card image, just as I can choose to have a personalized card sent to me for free from most(all?) of the card issuers. I'm sure there are some people with multiple corporate cards or cards with their spouse that look exactly the same in ?Pay except for the last 4 digits shown, but are unique in the physical form that its not's confusing so I expect this to arrive by iOS 9.
Discover is my primary card. It's ok for them to be cautious. Neither Apple Pay nor Discover will suffer without each other.
I haven't found anything that beats Discover for cashback rewards -- though some merchants still don't accept Discover.
" so I expect this to arrive by
iOS 9?OS 1 "If this is how Discover does business, I known why I never hear about them anymore.
There have been 4 major credit cards: Visa, Master, Ame. Express and Discover. In the last 10 years, I have heard only Visa, Master and Ame. Exp. Discover is less popular than iTune cards seriously.
in 2 years, Apple will totally rule the mobile payment world when all iPhone models are Apple Pay supported. Hopefully, Google can come up with a biometric phone to bring Google Wallet wider usage. For MCX, probably is somewhere in local Convenient or flower shops in the some corner of an dead town.
We've had NFC terminals here in Aus for ages and they are indeed wireless. The terminal sits in a charging dock when not in use. They remove it from the dock and hold it out of the window for you to tap your card/ phone to when completing a transaction. This is also how restaurant transactions take place with Chip & Pin/ NFC - they bring the terminal to you or you pay on the way out.
Now seeing the comments by the CEO of Discover Card, I'm getting pessimistic about Discover coming aboard in the near future. I contact DiscoverCard, shortly after the Apple Pay announcement and was told that Apple & Discover are in discussions, with the expectation that Discover would join shortly. After seeing this article in AppleInsider, it doesn't seem that it's coming soon,... Maybe by the end of the decade?
I'll need to be assessing what CC cards that I'm using,and consider switching to those having Apple Pay features.
Something like this?
No, it's a much larger pad of some kind (I don't know if it's an iPad) with a large case around it and an antenna that sticks up, presumably transmitting the order back into the store. It's about the size of a clipboard.
The first one seems like the easiest to implement, but I see an issue. For example, let's say it's a measly 1% gain on ITS content. I then make a $10,000 purchase using ?Pay and then return the purchase but use my physical card. If the banks aren't in the loop with the rewards program I should now have $100 in iTS credit at me point.
* Usage value can be either the number of times or the dollar value used within a given time frame.
How would that work if the merchant don't have the CC number you used to make the purchase with ApplePay to begin with? All they have is a one time use token, that only the banks can use to get the CC account it was generated for. I imagine if you use ApplePay to buy somethng, your refund also has to go through ApplePay to credit the CC you used.
That doesn't matter. The bank knows.
That doesn't matter. The bank knows.
And the bank also knows that the purchase was charged to a token generated by ApplePay and thus will change the charge amount on that token when you ask for a refund on a purchase. Thus Apple will not get their cut and you will not get any iRewards point for that purchase. But my guess is that the merchant will refund the purchase using the token. It's the number that will appears on your receipt and the transaction number they use for the purchase.