After losing Apple's iPad business, Intel has bled $7 billion while heavily subsidizing cheap x86 At

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  • Reply 141 of 217
    alfiejralfiejr Posts: 1,524member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post





    Then you too would be incorrect, not able or not wanting to comprehend the Nexus program.



    Their shouldn't be any huge surprise that the Nexus 9 is (purposefully) handicapped, resulting in an unfavorable comparison to an Apple iPad Air. It would have been a huge black-mark on Apple if they hadn't as the two serve different purposes for their respective OS providers. Leave the better hardware, performance and options to the OEM's as intended. That doesn't mean OEM's will be any more successful at challenging Apple's dominance than they have been up to now. They're a juggernaut with the lion's share of profits.



    Now as for tablets themselves I don't personally think they have Google's focus at the moment anyway. That market is in a bit of a funk this year. Google plainly wants to point their licensees away from the smallish 7" range of tablets tho, advice I expect Samsung, LG, HTC and the others will follow. I think Apple might follow that same path too, dumping the Mini altogether in the near future.



    oh my you really are grasping at definitional straws at this point.

     

    i get it: you and only you have the pontifical right to define how words are to be used here. so you say all the matters is Google's "intent" for its Nexus line. well, myself and DED don't see it that way, GG, do you get that? we measure by sales.

     

    it's like the difference between first degree (premeditated) and second degree (unpremeditated) murder - either way the victim (Nexus) is dead.

  • Reply 142 of 217
    gtrgtr Posts: 3,231member

    If Gatorguy worked for Virgin Galactic...

     

    VIRGIN GALACTIC AN UNQUALIFIED SUCCESS!

     

    A spokesperson for Virgin Galactic today, a Mr Fulloshit Gatorguy, announced the 'unqualified success’ of the Virgin Galactic spaceflight.

     

    “We designed the Virgin Galactic ship to go really, really fast and, as shown today, we achieved that goal admirably” he blurted.

     

    When asked about the pilot that was killed during the flight Mr Gatorguy was quick to point out that there are over seven billion people in the world and only one of them was killed during the test flight. "That’s an astounding statistical achievement!”

     

    While sipping some celebratory gatorade, Mr Gatorguy stated that Virgin Galactic looks forward to even more successful future flights, especially now that the astronomical cost of the program had been offset by placing huge advertisements on the side of the soon-to-be-deceased craft.

     

    “And naturally we save money on celebratory fireworks for the launches.” he said.

     

    Mr Gatorguy went on to thank investors for their profound confidence in allowing his company to repeatedly take their money and sink it into a spectacularly long list of many, many deliberate financial failures. “When you have failures like this who needs successes!” he said. "Would you like to try some of my free Gatorade?”.

     

    We declined.

  • Reply 143 of 217
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Volcan View Post

     

    Sad commentary on the future of computing, really. So long as Macs are required for developing iOS apps, I'll still be able to use my platform of preference.




    you are the 1%.  1% of 7Billion is 70million...  A big number.  I see the mac Pro and the iMac living on for a long time, but the MacBook Air... my guess is 5 years before ARM is more cost effective, and at that point, Apple will be making a hard decision as to the MBA is a OS X box (keyboard/touchpad), or a keyboard/touchscreen iOS device.

     

    And who's to say that Macs will be required for compiling at that point... This cloud thing... works pretty well.  save your code to iCloud and have 20,000 instances of Apple's compute engine compile it for you, all part of your developers license cost;-)

  • Reply 144 of 217
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ascii View Post

     

     

    This table of transistor counts shows a Sandy Bridge quad core i7 with GPU having 1.16bn transistors, while the latest A8X tri-core has 3bn (but a much better GPU). So while ARM is more efficient than x86 architecture in terms of transistors (and therefore power) for CPU cores, the CPU transistor numbers are dwarfed (these days, not initially) by the GPU and cache memory anyway.

     

    The reason ARM took off was their low power, but also because all these mobile devices use SoC, not standalone CPUs, and they were willing to license CPU designs to SoC makers but Intel insisted on making and selling separate CPUs. Also I think a lot of power savings come from close integration with the OS, so Intel chose the wrong time to break up with Microsoft. What Apple has to watch out for is Intel getting better at GPU design, and contributing to the Linux kernel to make it integrate better with their chips. They have already open sourced their GPU driver I believe.

     

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_count




    all of this is moot.

     

    The Aseries is one designed for one OS, one vendor set of related devices, really just one compiler from 2 languages.

     

    Apple can tune the performance of their CPU/GPUs to exactly match their intended code use model, learn how to modulate the clocking to optimize performance, and how to keep the pipes full and context switching to a minimum.  

     


    the 64 bit move...  all for databus optimization, because most of what moves on the iOS HW, in and out of registers, is more than 32bits of data.  Why do in 2 clock cycles what can be done in one?  They're not bending pipes in memory to 20 decimals precision or creating multi gigabyte internal tables, the classic reasons to move to 64 bits... their moving graphics data.  lots of it, and any slow down impacts the response of the system to your touch/rotational/gravitational movements.


     


    Apple controls all aspects of the computational stack... they ain't integratin' they be Differentiatin' 


     

    This is the secret sauce... not ARM over x86, CISC vs RISC.   No one else is doing it.  Samsung is probably the only one that can... well Intel could as well, but that would put them at odds with all their customers (just like MS is at odds with all the Windows OEMs).

     

    Add the fact they can build stuff like 'secure enclaves', custom motion monitoring chips into their architecture... all the more reason they are outpacing the pack

  • Reply 145 of 217
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,799member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post

     



    you are the 1%.  


    I am the epitome of SJ's intersection of technology and the graphic arts.

  • Reply 146 of 217
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,103member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTR View Post

     

    If Gatorguy worked for Virgin Galactic...

     

    VIRGIN GALACTIC AN UNQUALIFIED SUCCESS!

     

    A spokesperson for Virgin Galactic today, a Mr Fulloshit Gatorguy, announced the 'unqualified success’ of the Virgin Galactic spaceflight.

     

    “We designed the Virgin Galactic ship to go really, really fast and, as shown today, we achieved that goal admirably” he blurted.

     

    When asked about the pilot that was killed during the flight Mr Gatorguy was quick to point out that there are over seven billion people in the world and only one of them was killed during the test flight. "That’s an astounding statistical achievement!”

     

    While sipping some celebratory gatorade, Mr Gatorguy stated that Virgin Galactic looks forward to even more successful future flights, especially now that the astronomical cost of the program had been offset by placing huge advertisements on the side of the soon-to-be-deceased craft.

     

    “And naturally we save money on celebratory fireworks for the launches.” he said.

     

    Mr Gatorguy went on to thank investors for their profound confidence in allowing his company to repeatedly take their money and sink it into a spectacularly long list of many, many deliberate financial failures. “When you have failures like this who needs successes!” he said. "Would you like to try some of my free Gatorade?”.

     

    We declined.




    This was a Digitimes article no?

     

  • Reply 147 of 217
    Originally Posted by Volcan View Post

    I am the epitome of SJ's intersection of technology and the graphic arts.




    Oh! So you’re one of those black velvet paintings with the little LED lights wired into it?

     

    Originally Posted by GTR View Post

    “And naturally we save money on celebratory fireworks for the launches.” he said.


  • Reply 148 of 217
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,799member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

     



    Oh! So you’re one of those black velvet paintings with the little LED lights wired into it?

     


    Huh?

  • Reply 149 of 217
    Originally Posted by Volcan View Post

    Huh?



    Yeah, I was trying to find a picture of one, too... I didn’t figure you’d know that kitsch off-hand. <img class=" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" /> 

     

    Aha! Found one. Okay, so it’s regular artwork of whatever, but wherever there would be a light in the painting, that part is cut out and wired from behind with a tiny LED light so that there’s an actual light there. And then you plug in the painting and you get the “effect” of lights.

     

    Processed By eBay with ImageMagick, z1.1.0. ||B2Processed By eBay with ImageMagick, z1.1.0. ||B2

     

     

    It’s really stupid and cheesy and it went a long way for a joke, but whatever.

  • Reply 150 of 217
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,799member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

     

    It’s really stupid and cheesy and it went a long way for a joke, but whatever.


    Lost me, bye.

  • Reply 151 of 217
    volcan wrote: »
    It’s really stupid and cheesy and it went a long way for a joke, but whatever.
    Lost me, bye.

    Bye-o.
  • Reply 152 of 217
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Alfiejr View Post

     



    oh my you really are grasping at definitional straws at this point.

     

    i get it: you and only you have the pontifical right to define how words are to be used here. so you say all the matters is Google's "intent" for its Nexus line. well, myself and DED don't see it that way, GG, do you get that? we measure by sales.

     

    it's like the difference between first degree (premeditated) and second degree (unpremeditated) murder - either way the victim (Nexus) is dead.


     

    C'mon. He's just moving the goalposts so that Google scores. The end zone now starts at the 40 yard line for the Nexus.

  • Reply 153 of 217
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismY View Post








    but but but...!

  • Reply 154 of 217
    staticx57 wrote: »
    Yup, Intel has performed so poorly that Apple has given up with them in the Macbook Air, Macbook Pro , Mac Pro, iMac 5k, and the Mac mini

    .. Oh wait EVERY MAC USES INTEL


    This is the mobile market, which is much larger than the PC market. 
    Apple is selling ~50M iOS devices with Ax vs the ~5M Intel Macs it sells.

    Intel wants to be in mobile, which is why it is paying OEMs to use its stuff. Even that isn't working. And that's pretty sad.

    Apple doesn't have to pay people to use iPads, or even Apple Maps.

    Apple is keenly aware that they ship new Macs on Intel's slipping schedule, not their own; a problem Apple doesn't have with their iOS devices. Now that being "Windows compatible" is a fading requirement, Intel needs to be a more customer friendly vendor...not like the olden days.

    Another growing factor is the huge base of iOS applications along with the ease in creating more. We may have reached the point where "demand that a program is iOS compatible" is surpassing the requirement for "Windows compatibility." That's bad timing because the "Windows" platform is faltering under decades of backwards compatibility patching and band-aids.

    What do you suppose would happen if Apple were to announce a keyboard/touchpad version of iOS for the MBA running on the A8X? The iOS only needs to run multiple apps at the same time to make that a hugely popular alternatively OS to Windows on mobile computers.
  • Reply 155 of 217
    danox wrote: »
    Do you have sales numbers? Seriously.


    (And I don't mean the pap put out by consulting firms).

    Look at Google's earning reports, there isn't any hardware profit. The same applies to Amazon.

    Oh, I knew the answer to my own question. :lol:
  • Reply 156 of 217
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post





    I repeat my point, I think we are fast approaching the times when a Mac doesn't need compatibility for the vast majority of Mac users even if I do. If Apple were to come out with a powerful CPU/ GPU set up that was totally optimized for a version of OS X I think it would be a huge step forward, not back. The performance gains could be significant. It would also be a bonus to me that the Wintel world would cease being able to piggy-back Apple's improvements and designs not to mention cash input, helping their flakey survival.



    I know all about add on PC boards, I sold them from Apple ][e through to PPC. These days a TB based dongle could be relatively inexpensive and with VMWare be fine for the person who need Windows occasionally. In many cases a Windows VM is far superior to an actual PC in terms of it being easily replicated and backed up with plug and play functionality absent in many wintel boxes. I run every Windows OS on my Mac Pro going back to XP as well as many versions of OS X. But I'd agree that an Intel PC on a board is additional cost so if one really needed a dedicated PC that badly I'd say a cheap PC as well as a Mac might cost less ... but I'd rather have a VM.



    While I normally run bootcamp for my Windows needs, I readily admit that I am not a normal mac user.  And I do agree that the real need for people to have compatibility is very limited, people still want the security blanket of "Windows Compatibility".  In most cases where people do need Windows compatability a same platform VM will more than fit the bill.  However I remember just how slow the VMs were before Macs switched to Intel.  Even today, running an ARM VM on a modern intel platform is dog slow.  Keeping track of which instruction is for the host and which instruction is for a VM is a very small overhead on modern VM systems, however doing inline instruction conversions is very time consuming.  As someone else pointed out already, the Core series chips are not pure CISC chips anymore, so Intel has proven that doing hardware level x86/x86_64 conversion is not only possible, but fast.

  • Reply 157 of 217

    Chromebooks are a success for Intel. This category is really taking off, doubling every year. For now it is good for them but Acer, the Chromebook King, now offers more models with Nvidia chips than Intel chips as of this year. The Intel Haswell chips are the faster. The Baytrail chips are clocked faster but run slower due to power saving being the primary requirement.

     

    Even in the low price computer market Intel had better get its act together or it will lose this segment too.

     

    I'm using a Chromebook by Acer for demonstrating my marketing service to business owners. The C720P has a touch screen that loads slides fast. It loads video fast. With the USB 3 port things stored on an external drive load fast too. This machine does everything I need for work. The keyboard and touch pad both work better than my last laptop by Apple. The touch pad doesn't have all of the gestures a Mac Book has but I don't need them. It lets me scroll and switch tabs with three-finger gestures. I can pinch to zoom on the touch screen. The machine is actually faster than my 2008 Mac Book 2.4 GHz 2 GB RAM Core 2 Duo. A software difference between Windoz and Linux has been found. A fix is in the works and us GNU/Linux (Chrome OS) Haswell users are expecting a 17%-25% increase in speed very soon to our already zippy machines.

     

    It might be nice to have a super computer in one's laptop but what would one do with it? Machines need to do a job at a price that businesses are willing to pay. These new ARM and Nvidia chips are doing a job at a price point. Intel is probably worried about this, and Apple needs to worry about this too for different reasons.

     

    For my needs a Mac Book Air would cost almost five times the money I spent on the C720P ($209.99) and wouldn't even have a touch screen.

  • Reply 158 of 217
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,776member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    That Nexus devices fulfill their stated purpose pretty well.

    I don't have a problem with any smartphones being compared. That's the kind of thing consumers appreciate with so many choices out there. At the same time are any of the models DED discusses too slow to run the apps and services buyers typically want and use? I don't think so. An A8 is no doubt faster than Apple's previous A7, but that doesn't make the year old version unfit for purpose anymore than an i5 processor would not serve the vast majority of home computer buyers just as completely as an i7.

    At this point in time the latest mobile processors from Qualcomm, Samsung, Apple and others are well ahead of the app/services curve IMHO. Almost all of the more recent ones would fill the needs of all but the most demanding power-users, and those use-types are rare.

    So, in a nut shell, the best possible Android device was a flop whatever the motive for its creation. Interesting when you think about it isn't it?
  • Reply 159 of 217
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,776member
    ajmonline wrote: »

    While I normally run bootcamp for my Windows needs, I readily admit that I am not a normal mac user.  And I do agree that the real need for people to have compatibility is very limited, people still want the security blanket of "Windows Compatibility".  In most cases where people do need Windows compatability a same platform VM will more than fit the bill.  However I remember just how slow the VMs were before Macs switched to Intel.  Even today, running an ARM VM on a modern intel platform is dog slow.  Keeping track of which instruction is for the host and which instruction is for a VM is a very small overhead on modern VM systems, however doing inline instruction conversions is very time consuming.  As someone else pointed out already, the Core series chips are not pure CISC chips anymore, so Intel has proven that doing hardware level x86/x86_64 conversion is not only possible, but fast.

    Well yes, prior to Apple adopting Intel, if there wasn't a an intel card involved it it was pure emulation and yes it sucked big time. Hence my suggestion that some sort of optional add on Intel processor dongle would be needed for VMs when (and I truly believe this is coming) Macs go native Apple and drop Intel. By the way, what ever happened to RISC?

    I assume you use Bootcamp for games, other than that I see no need for forgoing the side by side convenience of a VM in OS X.
  • Reply 160 of 217
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,776member

    but but but...!

    She will be able to last a through a long famine period.
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