Really, "illiterate" on the left... Kinda a pointless ad hominem attack, especially since the states with the worse education are all GOP led! Most militant environmental and labor activists that I have seen are university and college graduates in non STEM fields (like most Americans that graduate).
You may question their motives, their reasoning and even their tactics (especially always targeting Apple when workers building their products are probably off than any other workers in factories in China), but it is without question that pressure on Apple to improve things have led to better lives for those workers (and workers in other factories not building Apple products).
You are, of course, free to interpret what I wrote however you want to, but "illiterates on the Left" means just that: there are literates and illiterates on the Left, and the proforma criticisms of Foxconn are from those that I view as 'illiterates'. (The illiterates on the Right have other issues that they are clueless about, but that's for another thread -- afaik, they don't particularly care about issue such as Foxconn's labor standards).
As to your second point, it has all the validity of a rooster taking credit for the sun rising.
(Add: And, in case you're not able to see it, the use of 'illiterate' is really meant as a rhetorical device -- i.e., the use of words in a certain way to convey meaning. What I really mean by that word is 'low-information folks', but I think 'illiterate' sounds more punchy. Btw, you may want to look up the meaning of ad hominem.)
You are, of course, free to interpret what I wrote however you want to, but "illiterates on the Left" means just that: there are literates and illiterates on the Left, and the proforma criticisms of Foxconn are from those that I view as 'illiterates'. (The illiterates on the Right have other issues that they are clueless about, but that's for another thread -- afaik, they don't particularly care about issue such as Foxconn's labor standards).
As to your second point, it has all the validity of a rooster taking credit for the sun rising.
(Add: And, in case you're not able to see it, the use of 'illiterate' is really meant as a rhetorical device -- i.e., the use of words in a certain way to convey meaning. What I really mean by that word is 'low-information folks', but I think 'illiterate' sounds more punchy. Btw, you may want to look up the meaning of ad hominem.)
So, you're saying that calling someone illiterate (by extension uneducated, poor, etc) as a way to discredit them (and with no proof that this is the case), is not ad hominem.
Please spare me the BS of you so called corrections. Your use falls smack dab into it.
So, you're saying that calling someone illiterate (by extension uneducated, poor, etc) as a way to discredit them (and with no proof that this is the case), is not ad hominem.
Please spare me the BS of you so called corrections. Your use falls smack dab into it. http://examples.yourdictionary.com/ad-hominem-examples.html
If you want to insult them, dislike them, do it, but please refrain from telling me I read it wrong; that's just crazy.
Your posts are Exhibit A for why I'll double down on my original comment. 100%.
You criticize Spam but you didn't even read his post stating that his experience with factory work was, "dangerous, the work was mind-numbing and I became very depressed to the point where I'd go in for a full day of work, then leave having almost no memory of the entire day having passed." Maybe such work is enjoyable, but I know few people that aspire to this type of work as a career, even if it does pay more.
I read it. I also realized that he was stating OPINIONS, not facts. He was also using vague generalities which are characteristically false.
Factory work is dreadful (I did it myself as a young person). The place I worked was dangerous, the work was mind-numbing and I became very depressed to the point where I'd go in for a full day of work, then leave having almost no memory of the entire day having passed. It was awful. And here's the thing: This was in the US, not China!
Have to agree. Same experience. There is nothing here that says anything bad about the people that do the work.
the proforma criticisms of Foxconn are from those that I view as 'illiterates'. What I really mean by that word is 'low-information folks', but I think 'illiterate' sounds more punchy. Btw, you may want to look up the meaning of ad hominem.)
When you align someone's opinion with an insult, that's attacking the person holding that viewpoint. Someone could easily switch it around and say 'mostly illiterates on the right think Foxconn isn't an evil soulless megacorp', that would also be attacking the people holding the opinion. It's also making it unnecessarily political, most of Apple's employees would be on the left so it's really saying more about your own opinion of people on the left. You should attack the opinion itself and not the people holding the opinion. People on the right criticize Foxconn too:
You could have said: 'The perception of Foxconn as a 'soulless megacorp' is misguided' and it's directed at no particular group of people, just the opinion itself.
Mail me a penny postcard when Dawn gets past hypocrisy. Or maybe she just doesn't do math. Foxconn at its worst had the same suicide rate as Cincinnati. Time wasted reading crap.
When you align someone's opinion with an insult, that's attacking the person holding that viewpoint. Someone could easily switch it around and say 'mostly illiterates on the right think Foxconn isn't an evil soulless megacorp', that would also be attacking the people holding the opinion. It's also making it unnecessarily political, most of Apple's employees would be on the left so it's really saying more about your own opinion of people on the left. You should attack the opinion itself and not the people holding the opinion. People on the right criticize Foxconn too:
You could have said: 'The perception of Foxconn as a 'soulless megacorp' is misguided' and it's directed at no particular group of people, just the opinion itself.
I am afraid that's hogwash. And hypocritical, to boot.
First, why it's hogwash: to say that there's an opinion associated with the 'illiterate left' is simply an empirical observation (on my part). There's a spectrum of views on the Left, and there's an illiterate (low-information) end of the spectrum that I view as holding the view that companies like Foxconn and Apple are evil (see the incredibly stupid and incendiary Russell Brand video onYoutube -- in fact, I am surprised that AI hasn't done a story on that yet). It would, indeed, be perfectly valid to say 'mostly illiterates on the Right think that Foxconn isn't....' Only someone with a very thin skin would think it's an attack.
Second, why it's hypocritical: we've had multiple threads with hundreds of posts where the Right has been bashed every which way as homophobes, bigots, racists, etc. etc. (go look at the RFRA threads again), and I didn't see you chiming in with an iota of concern for "people holding an opinion" getting attacked personally for their political views. Why are you being selective in your outrage?
(Btw: Did you guys delete my reply to foggyhill where I said that, based on his most recent response, I would like to double down on my original post? Way to go....)
to say that there's an opinion associated with the 'illiterate left' is simply an empirical observation (on my part).
You can use that to justify any insult e.g anyone who thinks [insert opinion] is a moron. You are insulting people who step up to take an opposing view from the one you have.
there's an illiterate (low-information) end of the spectrum that I view as holding the view that companies like Foxconn and Apple are evil
People who are perfectly literate or not on the left can hold the same viewpoint - everybody gets limited information to form their viewpoints - and there's no possible way that you can assess everyone's literacy or political leanings from the opinion they hold. You did say the view is mostly held by and not exclusively held by a certain group but it was an unnecessary attack on a group of people who you clearly disapprove of. The other groups who hold the same view shouldn't be exempt from criticism if it's the viewpoint you are criticizing.
A more appropriate term than illiterate would be misinformed.
Second, why it's hypocritical: we've had multiple threads with hundreds of posts where the Right has been bashed every which way as homophobes, bigots, racists, etc. etc. (go look at the RFRA threads again), and I didn't see you chiming in with an iota of concern for "people holding an opinion" getting attacked personally for their political views. Why are you being selective in your outrage?
It's hardly 'outrage' and similar posts in the other threads do get removed. There's just a lot more of them to deal with so they don't all get removed or edited and those threads are incendiary topics with attacks in both directions. When you see ones that are offensive, flag them.
(Btw: Did you guys delete my reply to foggyhill where I said that, based on his most recent response, I would like to double down on my original post? Way to go....)
Yes because you were making it even more personal by suggesting their reply backs up your insult.
It's hardly 'outrage' and similar posts in the other threads do get removed. There's just a lot more of them to deal with so they don't all get removed or edited and those threads are incendiary topics with attacks in both directions. When you see ones that are offensive, flag them.
Yes because you were making it even more personal by suggesting their reply backs up your insult.
I did not say 'outrage', but rather 'selective outrage'. Please don't misstate my words. Attacks against the Right (btw, I view myself as not being on either side) are almost never deleted in this Forum. I've been here for nearly a decade, and know what I am talking about. Slams against Fox, Limbaugh, Southerners, Tea Party etc are par for the course on AI. That is simply a fact.
As to my original post being an 'insult', I couldn't disagree more. And, apparently, four perfectly reasonable posters agreed with it, so it can't be all that egregious.
Hey, it's a private Forum. You guys are the mods. You're welcome to do as you please. I couldn't care less, but I will express my opinion. Almost always backed up with facts or logic, even if it doesn't suit your point of view. But please don't couch in high-minded arguments that just do not apply, or are inconsistently applied.
Btw, how do I know that slams against the Right -- e.g., Fox News, Tea Party -- rarely elicit a peep on AI? I have done it myself, and not one Mod has ever bothered.
Therefore, it occurs to me that my comment must have been flagged. Clearly by someone who was sooooo offended because of the phrase "illiterate Left" and could not tell the difference between the reference to "those on the Left who are illiterate" versus their assumption that I must have meant "all Left is illiterate". Or that I must be insulting the "poor" even though I did not say so, but (s)he thought that must be an obvious connection.
It's just presumptive, preemptive rage that has no basis in logic.
AI needs to take a serious look at its policies and how they are applied. Trolls with repeated flags and complaints by numerous posters seem to rarely get called out by the Mods, but I know of many cases -- especially recently -- where very reasonable and seasoned posters are banned. Many have simply cut back or quit their involvement with AI. It is your prerogative, but it's also your and my collective loss, since some of them have more insights in a few posts that do the trolls in dozens of posts.
Can I point out an irony that escaped you, and I did not even bother with calling out? Look at the first post by foggyhill in this thread (#18), and tell me if the first para is not, by the same logic as your argument, an insult against states with lower literacy levels, and the GOP. The fact that (s)he or you couldn't even see the internal contradiction in that holier-than-thou post says it all!
Attacks against the Right are almost never deleted in this Forum. I've been here for nearly a decade, and know what I am talking about. Slams against Fox, Limbaugh, Southerners, Tea Party etc are par for the course on AI. That is simply a fact.
If that's true then the posts can still be pointed out but it depends on what's being attacked. It's insults directed at forum members that are not allowed. You can attack ideas, institutions, people outside the forum.
As to my original post being an 'insult', I couldn't disagree more. And, apparently, four perfectly reasonable posters agreed with it, so it can't be all that egregious.
Indirect insults aren't as bad as direct but you can follow it logically:
ad hom would be saying a forum member = illiterate
if you say holding opinion = illiterate
and a forum member = holding opinion
then forum member = illiterate, which is the above ad hom but just done indirectly.
This can be done with any topic. Someone could say 'I like Jony Ive' and another member could say 'anyone who likes Jony Ive is an idiot'. It's an indirect insult. It's usually done pre-emptively to stifle people's opinions before they're added to a discussion thread. This particular thread has two sides - pro-Foxconn or not and your comment is designed to suppress the side you're not on by placing the insult before people take that side so that people would then think 'uh oh, if I say Foxconn is evil then people will think I'm an illiterate leftie'. This also isn't a political thread so the use of 'leftie' wasn't necessary nor was 'ignoramuses' btw.
Hey, it's a private Forum. You guys are the mods. You're welcome to do as you please. I couldn't care less, but I will express my opinion. Almost always backed up with facts or logic, even if it doesn't suit your point of view. But please don't couch in high-minded arguments that just do not apply, or are inconsistently applied.
AI needs to take a serious look at its policies and how they are applied. Trolls with repeated flags and complaints by numerous posters seem to rarely get called out by the Mods, but I know of many cases -- especially recently -- where very reasonable and seasoned posters are banned. Many have simply cut back or quit their involvement with AI. It is your prerogative, but it's also your and my collective loss, since some of them have more insights in a few posts that do the trolls in dozens of posts.
What you're suggesting would be inconsistent. Profiling members who have bad opinions makes banning people personal and hard to justify to someone else. If someone says e.g "Tim Cook isn't doing a good job as a CEO" and someone else says "shut up moron", the latter is breaking the rules. The former is a perfectly acceptable criticism to make. To ban someone over making critical remarks can't be justified to someone else. Direct insults are pretty easy to pick out and also easy for members to avoid making. The forum provides features to ignore members whose opinions are consistently disagreeable. For some reason, not everyone chooses to use them - people who continually quote members they see as troublesome aren't using the features provided to them.
The issue of trolls gets raised time and time again and everyone agrees that trolls are bad but people also point to each other as examples. People who are in agreement that there are too many trolls have in the past tried to get each other banned for trolling. What's also interesting is that people from the left or right promote freedom of speech but as soon as someone makes a string of negative posts about Apple, they have to be banned immediately. I read the same comments as everybody else and I don't feel the need to reply to them. You just skip over the comments you don't like. There's far more offensive posters being removed than what you are seeing. Ones that remain go through the same process as everyone else. People rarely get banned immediately, they get points for breaking the forum rules and these accumulate to a temporary ban. With enough points, the bans become more frequent until they stop breaking the rules.
The aim isn't to promote one view over another but polite discussion where people can have opinions (even bad ones) and they can hear from people with opposing opinions.
Can I point out an irony that escaped you, and I did not even bother with calling out? Look at the first post by foggyhill in this thread (#18), and tell me if the first para is not, by the same logic as your argument, an insult against states with lower literacy levels, and the GOP. The fact that (s)he or you couldn't even see the internal contradiction in that holier-than-thou post says it all!
That was discrediting what you said and there was no insult directed at forum members.
You honestly can't see how it's insulting to say that one is likely illiterate if they think Foxconn is a soulless mega corp?
Even if it was an insult (which I do not agree with, since I have not so far seen an informed, unhypocritical argument for why Foxconn is a soulless megacorp), our Mod above (see post #29) says that it is quite alright to 'attack ideas, institutions, and people outside the forum.'
Incidentally, do you consider the characterization 'soulless megacorp' to be an insult to the people of Foxconn?
Let me ask you a question more pertinent to the thread: Do you agree with the point of view that Foxconn is a soulless megacorp that screws its workers? And if 'yes,' do you think it's hypocritical to be typing a post in a product that screwed (or whatever term you prefer) workers assembled?
Even if it was an insult (which I do not agree with, since I have not so far seen an informed, unhypocritical argument for why Foxconn is a soulless megacorp), our Mod above (see post #29) says that it is quite alright to 'attack ideas, institutions, and people outside the forum.'
Incidentally, do you consider the characterization 'soulless megacorp' to be an insult to the people of Foxconn?
Let me ask you a question more pertinent to the thread: Do you agree with the point of view that Foxconn is a soulless megacorp that screws its workers? And if 'yes,' do you think it's hypocritical to be typing a post in a product that screwed (or whatever term you prefer) workers assembled?
I don't think any of this fits into neat little bins of: They're screwing their workers. Or: it's capitalism at its finest. The Venn diagram would have a fair bit of overlap in the middle.
I do see people dragging "the left" or "the right" into conversations where they don't belong, and it's often insulting. While there are people who do fit into those neat little bins, most don't. One can despise both abortion and the death penalty.
I don't think any of this fits into neat little bins of: They're screwing their workers. Or: it's capitalism at its finest. The Venn diagram would have a fair bit of overlap in the middle.
I do see people dragging "the left" or "the right" into conversations where they don't belong, and it's often insulting. While there are people who do fit into those neat little bins, most don't. One can despise both abortion and the death penalty.
Your point about the Venn diagram is a platitude. I have no idea what point you're trying to make other than state the obvious.
Leaving aside the fact that you completely avoided the questions I asked (you'll notice that I had the courtesy to answer yours), the article (if you read it) was premised on people who think that the intersection of the two 'bins' is a null set. Perhaps you should reread it before posting again on this issue.
Even if it was an insult (which I do not agree with, since I have not so far seen an informed, unhypocritical argument for why Foxconn is a soulless megacorp)
The debate about Foxconn's evilness has nothing to do with literacy, which is someone's ability to read and write. Everybody can only base their viewpoints on reports that come from news sources or their own first-hand accounts. The only accurate opinions would be from people who have either worked there or visited there but as Mike Daisy demonstrated, people can lie about that. There are two reports here and the BBC one has a video:
Jeff Williams acknowledged the violations are happening:
About tin mining used in their products:
"Our team visited the same parts of Indonesia visited by the BBC, and of course we are appalled by what’s going on there."
About factory violations:
"The reality is that we find violations in every audit we have ever performed, no matter how sophisticated the company we're auditing."
They've made it clear they're working to address the problems and they noted 93% compliance on working hours. 93% of 1 million workers still leaves 70,000 workers on more than 60 hours per week. 70,000 workers is a company the size of Apple itself. When you deal with large scale operations, it's understandable that large-scale problems come with them.
Incidentally, do you consider the characterization 'soulless megacorp' to be an insult to the people of Foxconn?
Let me ask you a question more pertinent to the thread: Do you agree with the point of view that Foxconn is a soulless megacorp that screws its workers? And if 'yes,' do you think it's hypocritical to be typing a post in a product that screwed (or whatever term you prefer) workers assembled?
If Apple wasn't actively trying to fix the problems and left it with the vast majority of workers doing 60+ hours per week, which Jeff Williams wrote was the case years ago then Foxconn would be a far worse place to work than it is now. So Foxconn deserves the title of being a soulless megacorp that doesn't care for the well-being of its workers because the evidence that Jeff Williams gave backs that up. Apple doesn't deserve that title given that they've made significant efforts to fix the problems.
The term soulless megacorp is not an insult to the people who work there and are suffering the abuse, it's a criticism of what the people running Foxconn are doing.
It would be hypocritical to buy almost any electronic product knowing that abusive conditions are making them but nobody knows the full extent of the problem and Apple is one of the few actively trying to fix it. If people were to buy all Samsung products and they made no effort to improve factory conditions, the situation would be worse. You can apply it to any product - stop eating food because there's abuse making it, stop wearing clothes because there's abuse making them, don't live in a home because the workers who built it were abused. People don't get to see the level of abuse at such a fine-grained level and a singular abstainer is not enough to make a difference.
If there had been no investigations into the conditions, the public would never know which company is making the best effort to improve workers' conditions. You haven't provided a solution to fixing the abusive conditions. Your opinion seems to be that there's no problem (while providing no evidence of your own) and that if people like the products then keep quiet and don't question or criticize how they came to be.
Leaving aside the fact that you completely avoided the questions I asked (you'll notice that I had the courtesy to answer yours)
Fine
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Incidentally, do you consider the characterization 'soulless megacorp' to be an insult to the people of Foxconn?
Yes, but they aren't in this thread, unlike people who you tried to pigeon-hole on the "left"
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Let me ask you a question more pertinent to the thread: Do you agree with the point of view that Foxconn is a soulless megacorp that screws its workers?
^^^^ Marvin, you do understand that most of the workers at Foxconn putting in 60+ hours per week (which used to be common in my place of work in the US doing non-factory work as a manager, incidentally) actually WANT to be putting in those hours so they can earn more and subsequently "retire" faster and return to the countryside? Giving workers the option for overtime is a benefit, not an "evil".
^^^^ Marvin, you do understand that most of the workers at Foxconn putting in 60+ hours per week (which used to be common in my place of work in the US doing non-factory work as a manager, incidentally) actually WANT to be putting in those hours so they can earn more and subsequently "retire" faster and return to the countryside? Giving workers the option for overtime is a benefit, not an "evil".
That statement comes without any input from the workers. What is likely is that they consider it to be a lesser of two evils - being destitute vs overworked. One of the links above gives input from an undercover worker:
"Another reporter, whose longest shift was 16 hours, said: "Every time I got back to the dormitories, I wouldn't want to move.
"Even if I was hungry I wouldn't want to get up to eat. I just wanted to lie down and rest. I was unable to sleep at night because of the stress.""
There's a mention of one of the workers who committed suicide last year:
"As recently as last fall, a 24-year-old Foxconn assembly line worker, Xu Lizhi, committed suicide by jumping from an off-campus building. He left behind poetry lamenting the monotonous, exhausting work."
A Screw Fell to the Ground
A screw fell to the ground
In this dark night of overtime
Plunging vertically, lightly clinking
It won’t attract anyone’s attention
Just like last time
On a night like this
When someone plunged to the ground
I Fall Asleep, Just Standing Like That
The paper before my eyes fades yellow
With a steel pen I chisel on it uneven black
Full of working words
Workshop, assembly line, machine, work card, overtime, wages...
They've trained me to become docile
Don't know how to shout or rebel
How to complain or denounce
Only how to silently suffer exhaustion
When I first set foot in this place
I hoped only for that grey pay slip on the tenth of each month
To grant me some belated solace
For this I had to grind away my corners, grind away my words
Refuse to skip work, refuse sick leave, refuse leave for private reasons
Refuse to be late, refuse to leave early
By the assembly line I stood straight like iron, hands like flight,
How many days, how many nights
Did I - just like that - standing fall asleep?
On My Deathbed
I want to take another look at the ocean, behold the vastness of tears from half a lifetime
I want to climb another mountain, try to call back the soul that I’ve lost
I want to touch the sky, feel that blueness so light
But I can’t do any of this, so I’m leaving this world
Everyone who’s heard of me
Shouldn’t be surprised at my leaving
Even less should you sigh or grieve
I was fine when I came, and fine when I left.
You mention overtime being requested but that's a consequence of not receiving enough pay. People in Western countries don't request 60-90 hour shifts because there's a reasonable minimum wage. Foxconn salaries are mentioned here and they've been improving dramatically:
In 4 years it went from $150 per month to $700. If you add up 1 million employees at that rate, consider that they are servicing multiple companies and the fact Apple alone makes about $40b net profit per year, having more reasonable working conditions is not going to negatively impact the operation. It doesn't have to be a never-ending cycle of pay increases, it will reach a balance where people aren't feeling compelled to spend their whole lives on a factory floor and lose any sense of purpose.
Comments
Really, "illiterate" on the left... Kinda a pointless ad hominem attack, especially since the states with the worse education are all GOP led! Most militant environmental and labor activists that I have seen are university and college graduates in non STEM fields (like most Americans that graduate).
You may question their motives, their reasoning and even their tactics (especially always targeting Apple when workers building their products are probably off than any other workers in factories in China), but it is without question that pressure on Apple to improve things have led to better lives for those workers (and workers in other factories not building Apple products).
You are, of course, free to interpret what I wrote however you want to, but "illiterates on the Left" means just that: there are literates and illiterates on the Left, and the proforma criticisms of Foxconn are from those that I view as 'illiterates'. (The illiterates on the Right have other issues that they are clueless about, but that's for another thread -- afaik, they don't particularly care about issue such as Foxconn's labor standards).
As to your second point, it has all the validity of a rooster taking credit for the sun rising.
(Add: And, in case you're not able to see it, the use of 'illiterate' is really meant as a rhetorical device -- i.e., the use of words in a certain way to convey meaning. What I really mean by that word is 'low-information folks', but I think 'illiterate' sounds more punchy. Btw, you may want to look up the meaning of ad hominem.)
You are, of course, free to interpret what I wrote however you want to, but "illiterates on the Left" means just that: there are literates and illiterates on the Left, and the proforma criticisms of Foxconn are from those that I view as 'illiterates'. (The illiterates on the Right have other issues that they are clueless about, but that's for another thread -- afaik, they don't particularly care about issue such as Foxconn's labor standards).
As to your second point, it has all the validity of a rooster taking credit for the sun rising.
(Add: And, in case you're not able to see it, the use of 'illiterate' is really meant as a rhetorical device -- i.e., the use of words in a certain way to convey meaning. What I really mean by that word is 'low-information folks', but I think 'illiterate' sounds more punchy. Btw, you may want to look up the meaning of ad hominem.)
So, you're saying that calling someone illiterate (by extension uneducated, poor, etc) as a way to discredit them (and with no proof that this is the case), is not ad hominem.
Please spare me the BS of you so called corrections. Your use falls smack dab into it.
http://examples.yourdictionary.com/ad-hominem-examples.html
If you want to insult them, dislike them, do it, but please refrain from telling me I read it wrong; that's just crazy.
Your posts are Exhibit A for why I'll double down on my original comment. 100%.
I read it. I also realized that he was stating OPINIONS, not facts. He was also using vague generalities which are characteristically false.
Factory work is dreadful (I did it myself as a young person). The place I worked was dangerous, the work was mind-numbing and I became very depressed to the point where I'd go in for a full day of work, then leave having almost no memory of the entire day having passed. It was awful. And here's the thing: This was in the US, not China!
Have to agree. Same experience. There is nothing here that says anything bad about the people that do the work.
When you align someone's opinion with an insult, that's attacking the person holding that viewpoint. Someone could easily switch it around and say 'mostly illiterates on the right think Foxconn isn't an evil soulless megacorp', that would also be attacking the people holding the opinion. It's also making it unnecessarily political, most of Apple's employees would be on the left so it's really saying more about your own opinion of people on the left. You should attack the opinion itself and not the people holding the opinion. People on the right criticize Foxconn too:
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/06/14/another-suicide-at-apple-linked-manufacturing-plant-in-china/
You could have said: 'The perception of Foxconn as a 'soulless megacorp' is misguided' and it's directed at no particular group of people, just the opinion itself.
When you align someone's opinion with an insult, that's attacking the person holding that viewpoint. Someone could easily switch it around and say 'mostly illiterates on the right think Foxconn isn't an evil soulless megacorp', that would also be attacking the people holding the opinion. It's also making it unnecessarily political, most of Apple's employees would be on the left so it's really saying more about your own opinion of people on the left. You should attack the opinion itself and not the people holding the opinion. People on the right criticize Foxconn too:
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2012/06/14/another-suicide-at-apple-linked-manufacturing-plant-in-china/
You could have said: 'The perception of Foxconn as a 'soulless megacorp' is misguided' and it's directed at no particular group of people, just the opinion itself.
I am afraid that's hogwash. And hypocritical, to boot.
First, why it's hogwash: to say that there's an opinion associated with the 'illiterate left' is simply an empirical observation (on my part). There's a spectrum of views on the Left, and there's an illiterate (low-information) end of the spectrum that I view as holding the view that companies like Foxconn and Apple are evil (see the incredibly stupid and incendiary Russell Brand video onYoutube -- in fact, I am surprised that AI hasn't done a story on that yet). It would, indeed, be perfectly valid to say 'mostly illiterates on the Right think that Foxconn isn't....' Only someone with a very thin skin would think it's an attack.
Second, why it's hypocritical: we've had multiple threads with hundreds of posts where the Right has been bashed every which way as homophobes, bigots, racists, etc. etc. (go look at the RFRA threads again), and I didn't see you chiming in with an iota of concern for "people holding an opinion" getting attacked personally for their political views. Why are you being selective in your outrage?
(Btw: Did you guys delete my reply to foggyhill where I said that, based on his most recent response, I would like to double down on my original post? Way to go....)
You can use that to justify any insult e.g anyone who thinks [insert opinion] is a moron. You are insulting people who step up to take an opposing view from the one you have.
People who are perfectly literate or not on the left can hold the same viewpoint - everybody gets limited information to form their viewpoints - and there's no possible way that you can assess everyone's literacy or political leanings from the opinion they hold. You did say the view is mostly held by and not exclusively held by a certain group but it was an unnecessary attack on a group of people who you clearly disapprove of. The other groups who hold the same view shouldn't be exempt from criticism if it's the viewpoint you are criticizing.
A more appropriate term than illiterate would be misinformed.
It's hardly 'outrage' and similar posts in the other threads do get removed. There's just a lot more of them to deal with so they don't all get removed or edited and those threads are incendiary topics with attacks in both directions. When you see ones that are offensive, flag them.
Yes because you were making it even more personal by suggesting their reply backs up your insult.
I did not say 'outrage', but rather 'selective outrage'. Please don't misstate my words. Attacks against the Right (btw, I view myself as not being on either side) are almost never deleted in this Forum. I've been here for nearly a decade, and know what I am talking about. Slams against Fox, Limbaugh, Southerners, Tea Party etc are par for the course on AI. That is simply a fact.
As to my original post being an 'insult', I couldn't disagree more. And, apparently, four perfectly reasonable posters agreed with it, so it can't be all that egregious.
Hey, it's a private Forum. You guys are the mods. You're welcome to do as you please. I couldn't care less, but I will express my opinion. Almost always backed up with facts or logic, even if it doesn't suit your point of view. But please don't couch in high-minded arguments that just do not apply, or are inconsistently applied.
Btw, how do I know that slams against the Right -- e.g., Fox News, Tea Party -- rarely elicit a peep on AI? I have done it myself, and not one Mod has ever bothered.
Therefore, it occurs to me that my comment must have been flagged. Clearly by someone who was sooooo offended because of the phrase "illiterate Left" and could not tell the difference between the reference to "those on the Left who are illiterate" versus their assumption that I must have meant "all Left is illiterate". Or that I must be insulting the "poor" even though I did not say so, but (s)he thought that must be an obvious connection.
It's just presumptive, preemptive rage that has no basis in logic.
AI needs to take a serious look at its policies and how they are applied. Trolls with repeated flags and complaints by numerous posters seem to rarely get called out by the Mods, but I know of many cases -- especially recently -- where very reasonable and seasoned posters are banned. Many have simply cut back or quit their involvement with AI. It is your prerogative, but it's also your and my collective loss, since some of them have more insights in a few posts that do the trolls in dozens of posts.
Can I point out an irony that escaped you, and I did not even bother with calling out? Look at the first post by foggyhill in this thread (#18), and tell me if the first para is not, by the same logic as your argument, an insult against states with lower literacy levels, and the GOP. The fact that (s)he or you couldn't even see the internal contradiction in that holier-than-thou post says it all!
If that's true then the posts can still be pointed out but it depends on what's being attacked. It's insults directed at forum members that are not allowed. You can attack ideas, institutions, people outside the forum.
Indirect insults aren't as bad as direct but you can follow it logically:
ad hom would be saying a forum member = illiterate
if you say holding opinion = illiterate
and a forum member = holding opinion
then forum member = illiterate, which is the above ad hom but just done indirectly.
This can be done with any topic. Someone could say 'I like Jony Ive' and another member could say 'anyone who likes Jony Ive is an idiot'. It's an indirect insult. It's usually done pre-emptively to stifle people's opinions before they're added to a discussion thread. This particular thread has two sides - pro-Foxconn or not and your comment is designed to suppress the side you're not on by placing the insult before people take that side so that people would then think 'uh oh, if I say Foxconn is evil then people will think I'm an illiterate leftie'. This also isn't a political thread so the use of 'leftie' wasn't necessary nor was 'ignoramuses' btw.
What you're suggesting would be inconsistent. Profiling members who have bad opinions makes banning people personal and hard to justify to someone else. If someone says e.g "Tim Cook isn't doing a good job as a CEO" and someone else says "shut up moron", the latter is breaking the rules. The former is a perfectly acceptable criticism to make. To ban someone over making critical remarks can't be justified to someone else. Direct insults are pretty easy to pick out and also easy for members to avoid making. The forum provides features to ignore members whose opinions are consistently disagreeable. For some reason, not everyone chooses to use them - people who continually quote members they see as troublesome aren't using the features provided to them.
The issue of trolls gets raised time and time again and everyone agrees that trolls are bad but people also point to each other as examples. People who are in agreement that there are too many trolls have in the past tried to get each other banned for trolling. What's also interesting is that people from the left or right promote freedom of speech but as soon as someone makes a string of negative posts about Apple, they have to be banned immediately. I read the same comments as everybody else and I don't feel the need to reply to them. You just skip over the comments you don't like. There's far more offensive posters being removed than what you are seeing. Ones that remain go through the same process as everyone else. People rarely get banned immediately, they get points for breaking the forum rules and these accumulate to a temporary ban. With enough points, the bans become more frequent until they stop breaking the rules.
The aim isn't to promote one view over another but polite discussion where people can have opinions (even bad ones) and they can hear from people with opposing opinions.
That was discrediting what you said and there was no insult directed at forum members.
As to my original post being an 'insult', I couldn't disagree more.
You honestly can't see how it's insulting to say that one is likely illiterate if they think Foxconn is a soulless mega corp?
Even if it was an insult (which I do not agree with, since I have not so far seen an informed, unhypocritical argument for why Foxconn is a soulless megacorp), our Mod above (see post #29) says that it is quite alright to 'attack ideas, institutions, and people outside the forum.'
Incidentally, do you consider the characterization 'soulless megacorp' to be an insult to the people of Foxconn?
Let me ask you a question more pertinent to the thread: Do you agree with the point of view that Foxconn is a soulless megacorp that screws its workers? And if 'yes,' do you think it's hypocritical to be typing a post in a product that screwed (or whatever term you prefer) workers assembled?
Even if it was an insult (which I do not agree with, since I have not so far seen an informed, unhypocritical argument for why Foxconn is a soulless megacorp), our Mod above (see post #29) says that it is quite alright to 'attack ideas, institutions, and people outside the forum.'
Incidentally, do you consider the characterization 'soulless megacorp' to be an insult to the people of Foxconn?
Let me ask you a question more pertinent to the thread: Do you agree with the point of view that Foxconn is a soulless megacorp that screws its workers? And if 'yes,' do you think it's hypocritical to be typing a post in a product that screwed (or whatever term you prefer) workers assembled?
I don't think any of this fits into neat little bins of: They're screwing their workers. Or: it's capitalism at its finest. The Venn diagram would have a fair bit of overlap in the middle.
I do see people dragging "the left" or "the right" into conversations where they don't belong, and it's often insulting. While there are people who do fit into those neat little bins, most don't. One can despise both abortion and the death penalty.
Your point about the Venn diagram is a platitude. I have no idea what point you're trying to make other than state the obvious.
Leaving aside the fact that you completely avoided the questions I asked (you'll notice that I had the courtesy to answer yours), the article (if you read it) was premised on people who think that the intersection of the two 'bins' is a null set. Perhaps you should reread it before posting again on this issue.
The debate about Foxconn's evilness has nothing to do with literacy, which is someone's ability to read and write. Everybody can only base their viewpoints on reports that come from news sources or their own first-hand accounts. The only accurate opinions would be from people who have either worked there or visited there but as Mike Daisy demonstrated, people can lie about that. There are two reports here and the BBC one has a video:
http://recode.net/2015/04/06/where-apple-products-are-born-a-rare-glimpse-inside-foxconns-factory-gates/
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-30532463
They're providing video evidence of the working conditions. Apple responded to this here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/11303406/Read-Apples-letter-to-UK-staff-over-Chinese-factory-conditions.html
Jeff Williams acknowledged the violations are happening:
About tin mining used in their products:
"Our team visited the same parts of Indonesia visited by the BBC, and of course we are appalled by what’s going on there."
About factory violations:
"The reality is that we find violations in every audit we have ever performed, no matter how sophisticated the company we're auditing."
They've made it clear they're working to address the problems and they noted 93% compliance on working hours. 93% of 1 million workers still leaves 70,000 workers on more than 60 hours per week. 70,000 workers is a company the size of Apple itself. When you deal with large scale operations, it's understandable that large-scale problems come with them.
If Apple wasn't actively trying to fix the problems and left it with the vast majority of workers doing 60+ hours per week, which Jeff Williams wrote was the case years ago then Foxconn would be a far worse place to work than it is now. So Foxconn deserves the title of being a soulless megacorp that doesn't care for the well-being of its workers because the evidence that Jeff Williams gave backs that up. Apple doesn't deserve that title given that they've made significant efforts to fix the problems.
The term soulless megacorp is not an insult to the people who work there and are suffering the abuse, it's a criticism of what the people running Foxconn are doing.
It would be hypocritical to buy almost any electronic product knowing that abusive conditions are making them but nobody knows the full extent of the problem and Apple is one of the few actively trying to fix it. If people were to buy all Samsung products and they made no effort to improve factory conditions, the situation would be worse. You can apply it to any product - stop eating food because there's abuse making it, stop wearing clothes because there's abuse making them, don't live in a home because the workers who built it were abused. People don't get to see the level of abuse at such a fine-grained level and a singular abstainer is not enough to make a difference.
If there had been no investigations into the conditions, the public would never know which company is making the best effort to improve workers' conditions. You haven't provided a solution to fixing the abusive conditions. Your opinion seems to be that there's no problem (while providing no evidence of your own) and that if people like the products then keep quiet and don't question or criticize how they came to be.
Leaving aside the fact that you completely avoided the questions I asked (you'll notice that I had the courtesy to answer yours)
Quote:
Incidentally, do you consider the characterization 'soulless megacorp' to be an insult to the people of Foxconn?
Yes, but they aren't in this thread, unlike people who you tried to pigeon-hole on the "left"
Quote:
Let me ask you a question more pertinent to the thread: Do you agree with the point of view that Foxconn is a soulless megacorp that screws its workers?
No.
That statement comes without any input from the workers. What is likely is that they consider it to be a lesser of two evils - being destitute vs overworked. One of the links above gives input from an undercover worker:
"Another reporter, whose longest shift was 16 hours, said: "Every time I got back to the dormitories, I wouldn't want to move.
"Even if I was hungry I wouldn't want to get up to eat. I just wanted to lie down and rest. I was unable to sleep at night because of the stress.""
There's a mention of one of the workers who committed suicide last year:
"As recently as last fall, a 24-year-old Foxconn assembly line worker, Xu Lizhi, committed suicide by jumping from an off-campus building. He left behind poetry lamenting the monotonous, exhausting work."
http://libcom.org/blog/xulizhi-foxconn-suicide-poetry
A Screw Fell to the Ground
A screw fell to the ground
In this dark night of overtime
Plunging vertically, lightly clinking
It won’t attract anyone’s attention
Just like last time
On a night like this
When someone plunged to the ground
I Fall Asleep, Just Standing Like That
The paper before my eyes fades yellow
With a steel pen I chisel on it uneven black
Full of working words
Workshop, assembly line, machine, work card, overtime, wages...
They've trained me to become docile
Don't know how to shout or rebel
How to complain or denounce
Only how to silently suffer exhaustion
When I first set foot in this place
I hoped only for that grey pay slip on the tenth of each month
To grant me some belated solace
For this I had to grind away my corners, grind away my words
Refuse to skip work, refuse sick leave, refuse leave for private reasons
Refuse to be late, refuse to leave early
By the assembly line I stood straight like iron, hands like flight,
How many days, how many nights
Did I - just like that - standing fall asleep?
On My Deathbed
I want to take another look at the ocean, behold the vastness of tears from half a lifetime
I want to climb another mountain, try to call back the soul that I’ve lost
I want to touch the sky, feel that blueness so light
But I can’t do any of this, so I’m leaving this world
Everyone who’s heard of me
Shouldn’t be surprised at my leaving
Even less should you sigh or grieve
I was fine when I came, and fine when I left.
You mention overtime being requested but that's a consequence of not receiving enough pay. People in Western countries don't request 60-90 hour shifts because there's a reasonable minimum wage. Foxconn salaries are mentioned here and they've been improving dramatically:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/iphone-manufacturer-foxconn-to-double-worker-salaries-by-2013/
In 4 years it went from $150 per month to $700. If you add up 1 million employees at that rate, consider that they are servicing multiple companies and the fact Apple alone makes about $40b net profit per year, having more reasonable working conditions is not going to negatively impact the operation. It doesn't have to be a never-ending cycle of pay increases, it will reach a balance where people aren't feeling compelled to spend their whole lives on a factory floor and lose any sense of purpose.