Apple's stock started the week at 132 and ended the week at 128. The low for the week was 124. That was a week in which very good financials were reported. What would the stock do with bad news? What would the stock do if they had a bad quarter. What would happen with the release of a bad product. My guess is they would need far less big dump trucks to for the decreased value of the company. Seems to me that the company holds all the cards and the stockholders are at risk. Are they really in a position to demand a 50% premium?
This was exactly what I was thinking. If Apple what's to go private all they had to do was to show no profits for two quarter by giving away iPhones and Wall Street would easily tank the stock I could see them cutting it in half. But then again Wall Street loves companies which do not make money.
Here's what I would do if I was Apple. I would say "Screw you shareholders, you've done nothing for us except scrounge off us. Here's what your stocks are worth, that's what you'll be getting, don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out."
Sadly a sale needs both the buyer and seller to agree to it. So the shareholder would retort with "Screw you Apple, I won't do what you tell me", and until Apple reaches the compulsory purchase threshold there's sod all they can do about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by krreagan
Actually all they need is 50.0000001% of the voting shares then the holdouts would not matter. They just put the sale to a share holder vote and the hold outs would have no choice.
Nope. Doesn't work that way. 90% ownership (IIRC) is needed to force a compulsory purchase of shares.
If Apple were seriously thinking about this then their best bet would be to release a couple of half baked products. That would depress the share price this lowering the price they'd need to pay to take the company private.
Sadly, the SEC etc would not stand idly by and let them artificially depress the share price.
As Baldrick was fond of saying, 'I have a cunning plan...'. It always failed.
Apple does not control the value of the stock Wall Street and the market does if the last couple of years has proven. Notice how no analysis go jail for stock manipulation. You get in trouble for inside trading but you can write bs about a stock in hope to get the market to move a stock up our down. You can not hold Apple accountable for the crap that market writes about them. If Apple had fake or real bad quarters the market would pound down the value equal to the value of the cash.
Here's what I would do if I was Apple. I would say "Screw you shareholders, you've done nothing for us except scrounge off us. Here's what your stocks are worth, that's what you'll be getting, don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out."
Originally Posted by KennMSr
I wouldn't be happy if they did what you suggest because I've stuck with them since I bought my shares at $13 through all the ups and downs and am waiting for that big payout so I can enjoy my retirement.
@Kenn, what you don't realize is you only invested $13/share in the company and that money only went to Apple if you invested during their IPO. Otherwise, all you're doing is gambling your money in the Wall Street crap shoot. Unless someone can prove me wrong, after the IPO, there has been a fixed number of stocks (adjusted for splits and buy backs) that Wall Street has gambled with. Apple doesn't owe AAPL gablers/investors anything, they only owe people who've bought Apple products.
As for Apple going private, the US government wouldn't allow it because I'm sure plenty of tax money comes from the sale of AAPL stocks and plenty retirement funds include AAPL and would stand to lose a big chunk of change. Too Big to Fail becomes Too Big to Go Private.
As for the criminal institution called the SEC, I'd like to see them shut down because there are a worthless agency that does nothing to help the small time investor or companies it doesn't like.
What would happen when some shareholders inevitably declined to accept any offer? Would Apple have the power to force such a transaction?
Actually all they need is 50.0000001% of the voting shares then the holdouts would not matter. They just put the sale to a share holder vote and the hold outs would have no choice.
That would be the route to go first: 50% plus 1 share to get a majority shareholding and then you control the company. They can still be sued by minority shareholders if they do something to mess up the company stock price on purpose but they can deliberately pay their full tax rates to drop income levels and the shareholders couldn't do anything about that. They could squeeze margins to grow unit volume at the expense of profits and they couldn't do anything about that either. Increase R&D etc. Eventually, the minority shareholders would sell up. Maybe not Icahn but he's 79, he can't have too long to go.
This would still need just under $400b. The biggest banks and lenders have trillions in assets:
A lot of these assets will be massive loan amounts to be repaid by customers over a long time but if a few of the biggest companies there came together, put together a couple of years of profits and liquidated some assets, they could get over 50% control of the company.
I think that's a situation that Apple would rather avoid. The ideal that people consider when taking the company private is that it would be people who care about the company but the people who tend to have the most assets are people who look out for themselves first (Apple included). The people running Apple don't care about the success of their competition or other companies. People who have enough to buy out Apple similarly wouldn't care about Apple, they'd just want to secure their current wealth or keep growing it.
When Steve Jobs was considering going back to Apple, Larry Ellison talked about buying Apple:
"When the deal was taking shape Jobs told Ellison, "You know, Larry, I think I've found a way for me to get back into Apple and get control of it without you having to buy it."
Ellison was happy for his friend, but pointed out that something was missing. He said to Jobs, "If we don't buy the company, then how can we make money?"
At this point Jobs got real close to Ellison and said, "Larry, this is why it's really important that I'm your friend. You don't need any more money."
Ellison agreed with that general sentiment, but thought it was stupid that some "fund manager at Fidelity" would make more money on Apple's success than he or Jobs.
Jobs responded by saying, "I think if I went back to Apple and didn't own any of Apple, and you didn't own any of Apple, I'd have the moral high ground."
Ellison's response: "Steve, that's really expensive real estate, this moral high ground.""
Consider if that outcome had happened and Larry Ellison had bought Apple, when you have very low ownership distribution then it can lead to really bad situations. If it's an individual and they die, everything might be inherited by their family who wouldn't necessarily care about the company at all and could dispose of it to a high enough bid to let them live the life they want.
I don't think that it's important that Apple is private or public because the goal is just that the people who are in control have the same values as the people who founded the company and built it to where it is. Unfortunately I don't think that's the case just now. Apple has an active userbase of over 400 million people. $1000 each would be able to gain control of the company. The more voices there are though, the harder it is to get them to go in any one direction.
The biggest concern going forward IMO is the generation after Cook, Ive, Federighi. This is just 20 years away. What happens when they aren't at the company any more and technology is so advanced that people will be able to buy a <$100 product that can do everything they need? I'm sure they'll be making the best products in their class just as there are premium toasters and ovens but the revenue might drop considerably. If their revenue ever fell so much because of the iPhone market drying up, it could be bought up and made private but this likely wouldn't have a good outcome. There's a possibility it could even be bought out by Samsung, Microsoft, Dell way in the future and they'd use their IP. Look at Motorola now owned by Lenovo.
Apple's stock started the week at 132 and ended the week at 128. The low for the week was 124. That was a week in which very good financials were reported. What would the stock do with bad news? What would the stock do if they had a bad quarter. What would happen with the release of a bad product. My guess is they would need far less big dump trucks to for the decreased value of the company. Seems to me that the company holds all the cards and the stockholders are at risk. Are they really in a position to demand a 50% premium?
If Apple had a poor quarter the share price movement might not be that much different with Apple's share repurchase plan in place. As the fools sell off their stock it just makes it easier for Apple to gobble up more shares. I guess it would be up to Apple to stabilize Apple's share price or at least stop it from dropping considerably.
I don't fully understand buybacks, but to me it seems Apple is throwing away its money because Wall Street still doesn't appreciate it. Apple's share price is still flaky, but maybe nothing will change that. I'd think for all that money they're spending they could at least bought some cloud services company to compete with Amazon's AWS or Microsoft's Azure because Wall Street keeps praising those cloud services. However, I'm not second-guessing Apple and I feel they know what they're doing. Apple still has plenty of overseas cash to do whatever they want, if necessary.
Apple probably won't ever go private or get a fair premium from Wall Street but as long as they give me increased dividends I'm not going to complain like some greedy bastard. I'd be happy to see Apple do some humanitarian work even if I have to take a hit. Apple might be able to buy some good press by giving away sums of cash or instituting some programs for children. I keep thinking that repurchase money could do so much more good than simply making shares disappear.
Pretty sure there are no plans for Apple to go private at any time in the near or distant future. If their value suddenly collapsed and they were worth 1/4 of their current valuation...maybe. If there is another global economic collapse...maybe, but it still seems unlikely.
Could they purposefully (but surreptitiously) tank their own stock? Like putting out a stinker product or start a rumor that they are about to be indicted. When the value is that of a penny stock, buy it all up, then resume their money-making ways. %uD83D%uDE04
Pretty sure there are no plans for Apple to go private at any time in the near or distant future. If their value suddenly collapsed and they were worth 1/4 of their current valuation...maybe. If there is another global economic collapse...maybe, but it still seems unlikely.
Which is exactly what happened to Dell but instead of shutting it down and returning the money to the shareholders (like he recommended for Apple) Michael Dell just bought it back from the shareholders. Today we never hear a word about Dell. They are a ghost, a specter, a nobody. We don’t know what they make, what they sell, how much money they take in, nothing. They have no influence on the industry, none!
Pretty sure there are no plans for Apple to go private at any time in the near or distant future. If their value suddenly collapsed and they were worth 1/4 of their current valuation...maybe. If there is another global economic collapse...maybe, but it still seems unlikely.
It would probably be a good thing for AAPL to take a dump from the company's point of view. Assuming they still all their cash hoard on tap if/when that day comes, then it would be the equivalent of a K-Mart blue-light-special and Apple would go bonkers buying up as much stock as possible.
I don't see that scenario every really happening either. I'm a very happy AAPL owner, yet on the flip side I would like to see Apple pull a Dell and take the company private to keep Wall Street's grubby paws away and let them focus on what they do best, and maybe give Wall Street the occasional middle-finger with a smile.
Comments
In reality, doing a swan dive into a large pile of gold coins would be fatal. Do not attempt at home.
This was exactly what I was thinking. If Apple what's to go private all they had to do was to show no profits for two quarter by giving away iPhones and Wall Street would easily tank the stock I could see them cutting it in half. But then again Wall Street loves companies which do not make money.
Here's what I would do if I was Apple. I would say "Screw you shareholders, you've done nothing for us except scrounge off us. Here's what your stocks are worth, that's what you'll be getting, don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out."
Sadly a sale needs both the buyer and seller to agree to it. So the shareholder would retort with "Screw you Apple, I won't do what you tell me", and until Apple reaches the compulsory purchase threshold there's sod all they can do about it.
Actually all they need is 50.0000001% of the voting shares then the holdouts would not matter. They just put the sale to a share holder vote and the hold outs would have no choice.
Nope. Doesn't work that way. 90% ownership (IIRC) is needed to force a compulsory purchase of shares.
In reality, doing a swan dive into a large pile of gold coins would be fatal. Do not attempt at home.
That's what employees are for. How much gold do I have? [chucks lawyer over the edge] One thousand one, one thousand two...
I feel compelled to mention Barbarians at the Gate is my favorite James Garner movie.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqqfGXrX__8
Exactly. This is how Richie Rich died. They had to power wash his brains and blood off those gold coins.
Apple does not control the value of the stock Wall Street and the market does if the last couple of years has proven. Notice how no analysis go jail for stock manipulation. You get in trouble for inside trading but you can write bs about a stock in hope to get the market to move a stock up our down. You can not hold Apple accountable for the crap that market writes about them. If Apple had fake or real bad quarters the market would pound down the value equal to the value of the cash.
"Every team in Major League Baseball, the NFL, and the NBA, along with the 20 most valuable soccer teams in the world."
I find your lack of NHL hockey teams disturbing.
Here's what I would do if I was Apple. I would say "Screw you shareholders, you've done nothing for us except scrounge off us. Here's what your stocks are worth, that's what you'll be getting, don't let the door hit you on the butt on the way out."
I wouldn't be happy if they did what you suggest because I've stuck with them since I bought my shares at $13 through all the ups and downs and am waiting for that big payout so I can enjoy my retirement.
@Kenn, what you don't realize is you only invested $13/share in the company and that money only went to Apple if you invested during their IPO. Otherwise, all you're doing is gambling your money in the Wall Street crap shoot. Unless someone can prove me wrong, after the IPO, there has been a fixed number of stocks (adjusted for splits and buy backs) that Wall Street has gambled with. Apple doesn't owe AAPL gablers/investors anything, they only owe people who've bought Apple products.
As for Apple going private, the US government wouldn't allow it because I'm sure plenty of tax money comes from the sale of AAPL stocks and plenty retirement funds include AAPL and would stand to lose a big chunk of change. Too Big to Fail becomes Too Big to Go Private.
As for the criminal institution called the SEC, I'd like to see them shut down because there are a worthless agency that does nothing to help the small time investor or companies it doesn't like.
That would be the route to go first: 50% plus 1 share to get a majority shareholding and then you control the company. They can still be sued by minority shareholders if they do something to mess up the company stock price on purpose but they can deliberately pay their full tax rates to drop income levels and the shareholders couldn't do anything about that. They could squeeze margins to grow unit volume at the expense of profits and they couldn't do anything about that either. Increase R&D etc. Eventually, the minority shareholders would sell up. Maybe not Icahn but he's 79, he can't have too long to go.
This would still need just under $400b. The biggest banks and lenders have trillions in assets:
http://www.forbes.com/global2000/list/#page:1_sort:5_direction:desc
A lot of these assets will be massive loan amounts to be repaid by customers over a long time but if a few of the biggest companies there came together, put together a couple of years of profits and liquidated some assets, they could get over 50% control of the company.
I think that's a situation that Apple would rather avoid. The ideal that people consider when taking the company private is that it would be people who care about the company but the people who tend to have the most assets are people who look out for themselves first (Apple included). The people running Apple don't care about the success of their competition or other companies. People who have enough to buy out Apple similarly wouldn't care about Apple, they'd just want to secure their current wealth or keep growing it.
When Steve Jobs was considering going back to Apple, Larry Ellison talked about buying Apple:
http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-larry-ellison-2011-10
"When the deal was taking shape Jobs told Ellison, "You know, Larry, I think I've found a way for me to get back into Apple and get control of it without you having to buy it."
Ellison was happy for his friend, but pointed out that something was missing. He said to Jobs, "If we don't buy the company, then how can we make money?"
At this point Jobs got real close to Ellison and said, "Larry, this is why it's really important that I'm your friend. You don't need any more money."
Ellison agreed with that general sentiment, but thought it was stupid that some "fund manager at Fidelity" would make more money on Apple's success than he or Jobs.
Jobs responded by saying, "I think if I went back to Apple and didn't own any of Apple, and you didn't own any of Apple, I'd have the moral high ground."
Ellison's response: "Steve, that's really expensive real estate, this moral high ground.""
Consider if that outcome had happened and Larry Ellison had bought Apple, when you have very low ownership distribution then it can lead to really bad situations. If it's an individual and they die, everything might be inherited by their family who wouldn't necessarily care about the company at all and could dispose of it to a high enough bid to let them live the life they want.
I don't think that it's important that Apple is private or public because the goal is just that the people who are in control have the same values as the people who founded the company and built it to where it is. Unfortunately I don't think that's the case just now. Apple has an active userbase of over 400 million people. $1000 each would be able to gain control of the company. The more voices there are though, the harder it is to get them to go in any one direction.
The biggest concern going forward IMO is the generation after Cook, Ive, Federighi. This is just 20 years away. What happens when they aren't at the company any more and technology is so advanced that people will be able to buy a <$100 product that can do everything they need? I'm sure they'll be making the best products in their class just as there are premium toasters and ovens but the revenue might drop considerably. If their revenue ever fell so much because of the iPhone market drying up, it could be bought up and made private but this likely wouldn't have a good outcome. There's a possibility it could even be bought out by Samsung, Microsoft, Dell way in the future and they'd use their IP. Look at Motorola now owned by Lenovo.
Apple's stock started the week at 132 and ended the week at 128. The low for the week was 124. That was a week in which very good financials were reported. What would the stock do with bad news? What would the stock do if they had a bad quarter. What would happen with the release of a bad product. My guess is they would need far less big dump trucks to for the decreased value of the company. Seems to me that the company holds all the cards and the stockholders are at risk. Are they really in a position to demand a 50% premium?
If Apple had a poor quarter the share price movement might not be that much different with Apple's share repurchase plan in place. As the fools sell off their stock it just makes it easier for Apple to gobble up more shares. I guess it would be up to Apple to stabilize Apple's share price or at least stop it from dropping considerably.
I don't fully understand buybacks, but to me it seems Apple is throwing away its money because Wall Street still doesn't appreciate it. Apple's share price is still flaky, but maybe nothing will change that. I'd think for all that money they're spending they could at least bought some cloud services company to compete with Amazon's AWS or Microsoft's Azure because Wall Street keeps praising those cloud services. However, I'm not second-guessing Apple and I feel they know what they're doing. Apple still has plenty of overseas cash to do whatever they want, if necessary.
Apple probably won't ever go private or get a fair premium from Wall Street but as long as they give me increased dividends I'm not going to complain like some greedy bastard. I'd be happy to see Apple do some humanitarian work even if I have to take a hit. Apple might be able to buy some good press by giving away sums of cash or instituting some programs for children. I keep thinking that repurchase money could do so much more good than simply making shares disappear.
Pretty sure there are no plans for Apple to go private at any time in the near or distant future. If their value suddenly collapsed and they were worth 1/4 of their current valuation...maybe. If there is another global economic collapse...maybe, but it still seems unlikely.
Pretty sure there are no plans for Apple to go private at any time in the near or distant future. If their value suddenly collapsed and they were worth 1/4 of their current valuation...maybe. If there is another global economic collapse...maybe, but it still seems unlikely.
Which is exactly what happened to Dell but instead of shutting it down and returning the money to the shareholders (like he recommended for Apple) Michael Dell just bought it back from the shareholders. Today we never hear a word about Dell. They are a ghost, a specter, a nobody. We don’t know what they make, what they sell, how much money they take in, nothing. They have no influence on the industry, none!
Michael Corleone: What will it take to buy you out?
Pretty sure there are no plans for Apple to go private at any time in the near or distant future. If their value suddenly collapsed and they were worth 1/4 of their current valuation...maybe. If there is another global economic collapse...maybe, but it still seems unlikely.
It would probably be a good thing for AAPL to take a dump from the company's point of view. Assuming they still all their cash hoard on tap if/when that day comes, then it would be the equivalent of a K-Mart blue-light-special and Apple would go bonkers buying up as much stock as possible.
I don't see that scenario every really happening either. I'm a very happy AAPL owner, yet on the flip side I would like to see Apple pull a Dell and take the company private to keep Wall Street's grubby paws away and let them focus on what they do best, and maybe give Wall Street the occasional middle-finger with a smile.
Exactly. This is how Richie Rich died. They had to power wash his brains and blood off those gold coins.
Richie Rich is dead?
Dude, where was your spoiler warning???