Apple Pay challenger CurrentC could postpone launch into 2016

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  • Reply 81 of 92
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    d4njvrzf wrote: »
    I still have no idea why you brought up NFC. The sole purpose of NFC is to wirelessly transmit your token to the merchant's receiver for an in person transaction. It's just a wireless communication protocol and provides no authentication. It has no use when buying things from a remote merchant; in particular, NFC plays no role in in-app purchases through Apple Pay.

    I have a hard time believing you are that daft and quite frankly I'm sick of explaining what should be common knowledge to anyone that can find this site and figure out how to create a login so I'll leave you with a much bigger clue than anyone should need: If the NFC chip is so unimportant to Apple Pay then why do the iPads have an NFC chip despite have no antennas for near-field communication?
  • Reply 82 of 92
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    d4njvrzf wrote: »
    I still have no idea why you brought up NFC. The sole purpose of NFC is to wirelessly transmit your token to the merchant's receiver for an in person transaction. It's just a wireless communication protocol and provides no authentication. It has no use when buying things from a remote merchant; in particular, NFC plays no role in in-app purchases through Apple Pay.

    While that's partly true (it's the chip that holds the info) without NFC, future store purchases won't be secure. That's really about it. WiFi and Bluetooth are apparently not going to be a major force, and magnetic stripes, whether the card is chipped or not, are going to go away at some point. That point will be long off, but it will happen.
  • Reply 83 of 92
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    icoco3 wrote: »
    The retailer runs it as credit but MasterCard/Visa just debits from your bank account as a debit card.  It can be used as a debit card but also a credit.  That is why there is an option at the checkout to process it as credit.

    I don't care how the retailer chooses to categorize it. It's still a debit card, and must be used as such. You can't turn a debit card into a credit card at the counter. If you don't have enough money in your account, it won't go through, unless you have some form of overdraw, and if you do, that becomes very expensive.
  • Reply 84 of 92
    icoco3icoco3 Posts: 1,474member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post





    I don't care how the retailer chooses to categorize it. It's still a debit card, and must be used as such. You can't turn a debit card into a credit card at the counter. If you don't have enough money in your account, it won't go through, unless you have some form of overdraw, and if you do, that becomes very expensive.

     

    You are correct, it is just how it is processed on the front end.  Instead of the card company sending a credit transaction to your bank to go on a balance, it gets debited.  Run as credit, I pay no bank fees, merchant pays credit card acceptance fees, money debited from my account on the back end.  Run as a debit with PIN, merchant pays no fees, I get charged a transaction fee by my bank, money debited from my account on the back end.

  • Reply 85 of 92
    d4njvrzfd4njvrzf Posts: 797member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismY View Post





    I have a hard time believing you are that daft and quite frankly I'm sick of explaining what should be common knowledge to anyone that can find this site and figure out how to create a login so I'll leave you with a much bigger clue than anyone should need: If the NFC chip is so unimportant to Apple Pay then why do the iPads have an NFC chip despite have no antennas for near-field communication?

    Why don't you explain your radical theory of how the NFC chip is used in remote transactions? I think you're confusing NFC with the secure element or other hardware-backed secure storage. NFC itself has no security value except for its limited range which makes it harder for a malicious actor to intercept the transmission between your phone and the point-of-sale system. Transactions over the internet have no such danger as the entire session is encrypted with HTTPS. All the security of a payment system is provided by a combination of tokenization and authentication, in neither of which NFC plays any part.

  • Reply 86 of 92
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    d4njvrzf wrote: »
    Why don't you explain your radical theory of how the NFC chip is used in remote transactions? I think you're confusing NFC with the secure element or other hardware-backed secure storage. NFC itself has no security value except for its limited range which makes it harder for a malicious actor to intercept the transmission between your phone and the point-of-sale system. Transactions over the internet have no such danger as the entire session is encrypted with HTTPS.

    OK, Genius, if the NFC chip doesn't contain the Secure Element then where is it on the iPad logic board and why does the iPad have the HW sans the antennas?
  • Reply 87 of 92
    d4njvrzfd4njvrzf Posts: 797member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismY View Post





    OK, Genius, if the NFC chip doesn't contain the Secure Element then where is it on the iPad logic board and why does the iPad have the HW sans the antennas?

    Apple chose to combine the NFC chip and secure element in one chip to save space or ease manufacturing, but no one decreed it has to be that way. You can have NFC without a secure element or vice versa. A secure element is just a form of hardware backed storage. It can be embedded in the device, in the SIM card, or in an SD card (http://www.smartcardalliance.org/publications-nfc-frequently-asked-questions/#7). 

  • Reply 88 of 92
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    [quote name="d4NjvRzf" url="/t/187687/apple-pay-challenger-currentc-could-postpone-launch-into-2016/80_10#post_2760649"]Apple chose to combine the NFC chip [/QUOTE]

    1) Holy fuçk your comprehension is ridiculously poor.

    2) NXP choose to include SE. Apple is using their chip.

    [QUOTE] and secure element in one chip to save space or ease manufacturing,[/QUOTE]

    1) Now you're doing it on purpose, aren't you?!

    2) Space savings is minimal, and manufacturing and designing your own chip — which they aren't yet doing — to make it "easier" is ridiculous for any short term goals. The primary reason for the inclusion of the SE on the NFC chip is security. This is also why Apple is using NXP's NFC chip in the iPad, but I've already explained that you're still arguing against it.
  • Reply 89 of 92
    d4njvrzfd4njvrzf Posts: 797member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismY View Post







    2) Space savings is minimal, and manufacturing and designing your own chip — which they aren't yet doing — to make it "easier" is ridiculous for any short term goals. The primary reason for the inclusion of the SE on the NFC chip is security. This is also why Apple is using NXP's NFC chip in the iPad, but I've already explained that you're still arguing against it.

    You have never explained how the NFC secures the SE or why the SE would be inherently less secure with another form of wireless transmission or with no wireless transmission mechanism at all. The most plausible reason for why the iPad includes an NFC chip is the same reason why Intel ships dual core CPUs which are actually quad cores with two cores disabled; it's cheaper that way than creating a separate manufacturing line. What's your theory?

  • Reply 90 of 92
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    d4njvrzf wrote: »
    You have never explained how the NFC secures the SE or why the SE would be inherently less secure with another form of wireless transmission or with no wireless transmission mechanism at all. The most plausible reason for why the iPad includes an NFC chip is the same reason why Intel ships dual core CPUs which are actually quad cores with two cores disabled; it's cheaper that way than creating a separate manufacturing line. What's your theory?

    It's not a theory, the SE is on NXP's chip because it's the best option for using NFC. Apple Pay also using the SE for making secure payments is simply a bonus, and one I hope will grow into more online options. Your comments about not understanding how the SE pushing to BT or WiFi show that you don't understand security at even a rudimentary level. Do you work for HTC? Did you design their fingerprint security? Are you the one that told them that saving an image of the fingerprint in the system files was perfectly fine? If not, you may want to get in touch with that guy because you two have a lot in common.
  • Reply 91 of 92
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismY View Post





    It's not a theory, the SE is on NXP's chip because it's the best option for using NFC. Apple Pay also using the SE for making secure payments is simply a bonus, and one I hope will grow into more online options. Your comments about not understanding how the SE pushing to BT or WiFi show that you don't understand security at even a rudimentary level. Do you work for HTC? Did you design their fingerprint security? Are you the one that told them that saving an image of the fingerprint in the system files was perfectly fine? If not, you may want to get in touch with that guy because you two have a lot in common.

     

    While a SE+NFC combination may be the best option when you have to use NFC, you don't use NFC for remote transactions.  You were suggesting that NFC is necessary to employ a secure element when it is not necessarily even relevant. Secure elements come in multiple form factors (https://www.globalplatform.org/mediaguideSE.asp), and adding an NFC module to a secure element does not magically increase its security.

  • Reply 92 of 92
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    icoco3 wrote: »
    The retailer runs it as credit but MasterCard/Visa just debits from your bank account as a debit card.  It can be used as a debit card but also a credit.  That is why there is an option at the checkout to process it as credit.
    icoco3 wrote: »
    You are correct, it is just how it is processed on the front end.  Instead of the card company sending a credit transaction to your bank to go on a balance, it gets debited.  Run as credit, I pay no bank fees, merchant pays credit card acceptance fees, money debited from my account on the back end.  Run as a debit with PIN, merchant pays no fees, I get charged a transaction fee by my bank, money debited from my account on the back end.

    Sure, they could do that.
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