How much does a terabyte of data really cost a cellular company?
Think about it:
Average (heavy) smartphone user is about 2GB, This states they are taking ~2TB
That means they are making the equivalent demand (on the cell network) of 1000 subscribers
How much do you think that costs the company?
By there's also countless others that use less than those 2GB, so while they lose on one hand they win exponentially with the other.
It's not the data, it's the wireless bandwidth being monopolized. In some instances someone can monopolize the entire HSPDA/LTE channel in their sector, which cripples everyone connected to that MSC, in turn crippling everyone the sector for about a mile.
The large network carriers (eg AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon) own their networks, so the bandwidth costs them nothing save for what goes over someone elses lines. Torrent traffic is one example where a carrier can not optimize routing because there is no single peer that bandwidth can cost them zero.
eg. If you download file X, and it's 1TB in size, it will be divided into about a million segments of 1MB each and the torrent software will try to pull somewhere from 4 to 100 peers. If most of these peers are in China, then it's going to cost the carrier money if the carrier itself doesn't have a peer to go over. Large carriers hate paying transit, so they pretty much don't. The customer does. Cogent and Level 3 are the worst offenders for de-peering due to screwing their peers by routing traffic through their peers so they pay nothing and their peers pay everything.
So again, ISP's only control over transit costs is de-peering, which is exactly what T-mobile is doing to customers who are dilibertly pushing traffic over their mobile device (which is expensive bandwidth) instead of over wired fixed connections with lower costs.
Like, I'm all for T-mobile dropping customers entirely if customers are being scummy like this.
AT&T, Verizon, Sprint and T-Mobile (Deutsche Telekom) are all considered Tier 1 networks, hence bandwidth costs them probably nothing.
While what you say may well be true. However unless T-Mobile has to install additional equipment to be able to handle what these 3000 individuals are doing, there is no additional cost to T-Mobile. If they lose customers because of one or more of these individuals is sucking up so much bandwidth that it makes the experience of others unacceptable then that sounds more like a technology problem. How would it be different if they were legitimately using a paying for this much data. I remember having a conversation back in the late 80's with a musician friend who used midi files to record his music. I said to him won't it be great when you can make a true digital recording instead of this simulated crap? His response was that will never happen. He pointed out how big files of that nature would be and there was not enough storage in the world to handle it based on what a megabyte costs. We need to be carful about arguing for our limitations. It slows us down and keeps us from moving forward more quickly. There should be no reason why the amount of data should ever be a limitation. Wait and see.
While what you say may well be true. However unless T-Mobile has to install additional equipment to be able to handle what these 3000 individuals are doing, there is no additional cost to T-Mobile. If they lose customers because of one or more of these individuals is sucking up so much bandwidth that it makes the experience of others unacceptable then that sounds more like a technology problem. How would it be different if they were legitimately using a paying for this much data. I remember having a conversation back in the late 80's with a musician friend who used midi files to record his music. I said to him won't it be great when you can make a true digital recording instead of this simulated crap? His response was that will never happen. He pointed out how big files of that nature would be and there was not enough storage in the world to handle it based on what a megabyte costs. We need to be carful about arguing for our limitations. It slows us down and keeps us from moving forward more quickly. There should be no reason why the amount of data should ever be a limitation. Wait and see.
T-Mobile probably didn't install equipment to accommodate 3000 abusers, those abusers just degraded the performance of the cell site they were connected to. I don't know how more obvious it can be that T-Mobile does not have infinite network resources. If people need unlimited data service then they should read the fine print and T-Mobile should amend their contracts and disclosure so that limits are clear. The general attitude of people in first world countries is that everything is available in unlimited resource is this is far from the truth.
I'm old enough to remember calls from a home phone were metered. It was like a dime per call. Then came "all you can eat" number of calls for a fixed price. Then you had to get a separate long distance carrier, and they charged by the minute. (I remember calling home with 2 rings and hanging up to let my parents know I got home.)
Until recently I had a grandfathered AT&T plan with unlimited data. I never used more than a few gigs, tops. AT&T wouldn't let me tether, but like texting, I simply didn't need the functionality. With some recent changes in the plans though, by dumping the unlimited (can't go back!) I save about $400/yr, and got tethering and texting capability.
At some point, the infrastructure simply becomes trivial to expand because of the dropping cost of technology. At some point, data transmission will become so easy to deploy, that charging for data becomes an untenable business proposition. Then what?
By there's also countless others that use less than those 2GB, so while they lose on one hand they win exponentially with the other.
Not so, if a user only uses 1/4 that (light user) at 500mb that only equals 4:1 ratio, t<span style="line-height:1.4em;">hese guys are pulling at 1000:1</span>
<span style="line-height:1.4em;">So equals out? not really</span>
<span style="line-height:1.4em;">?How 'bout I send you a ten </span>
dollar bill<span style="line-height:1.4em;"> and you send me 250 ten dollar bills back</span>
<span style="line-height:1.4em;">, ok? </span>
But you're comparing 3000 users, to hundreds of thousands if not millions of users. I'm not suggesting letting them get away with it because then number of them can grow and really put a strain on the network.
T-Mobile probably didn't install equipment to accommodate 3000 abusers, those abusers just degraded the performance of the cell site they were connected to. I don't know how more obvious it can be that T-Mobile does not have infinite network resources. If people need unlimited data service then they should read the fine print and T-Mobile should amend their contracts and disclosure so that limits are clear. The general attitude of people in first world countries is that everything is available in unlimited resource is this is far from the truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasanman69
But you're comparing 3000 users, to hundreds of thousands if not millions of users. I'm not suggesting letting them get away with it because then number of them can grow and really put a strain on the network.
Ah it's not their network it's the tower backhaul (the connection from the tower to the internet trunk) which are typically very limited (which is why when you have special events, the data connection from local towers can be dead slow (or inaccessible) (too much data down a too small pipe))
Just did a quick calculation, these users have to be pulling right around 7 mbps (mega bits per second) 24/7 (constantly, day and night) to get to those kind of usage data numbers. That's pretty excessive, particularly given you are tethering a server or bit-torrent client onto your phone (the only way I could see reaching that kind of constant usage level)
Seriously these are the kind of dicks who's abuse cause telcos to have to not offer "unlimited" plans to the normal users. (I gave up unlimited plan I had from my original iPhone plan last year) Point is, yes the telco's can be dicks (and I will call them out when they are) but lets not give these dicks a pass. Their abuse (or more accurately the abuse of those like them) is why you and I ("normal users") no longer have unlimited plans offered on AT&T.
When you call something unlimited, or even "Truly Unlimited" (verbatim; as marketed) it doesn't have any limits. It's like turning on the hose to your house and the bill stays the same.
Transfer of data is in bytes, and I should be able to use that data transfer as I see fit and on whatever screen I choose. It could be email, web browsing, YouTube Videos, music streaming. If it's limited in the amount of data transferred, or what screen its on, it doesn't exactly fit the definition of "Unlimited" or even "Truly Unlimited".
However, in Germany, (T-Mobile is a German company) they have odd definitions of words throughout history. Back during World War II, people at Auschwitz were lied to about the definition of the word "shower".
The way tethering is determined, at least on Apple platforms, is by changing your web browser's "User Agent".
And yes, there are legitimate reasons to change your User Agent. For example, I may want to view a desktop version of a web page. When I change my User Agent, T-Mobile will count that particular data transfer as "tethering". Over all, its a terrible method for accounting for data. T-Mobile knows it too. T-Mobile eavesdrops on your connection to determine your "user agent". It's technology Deutsche Telekom created in early 2008.
Point is, to change the way the data is accounted for and billed, I believe you'd just need to install an app which is available in the iTunes App Store.
When you call something unlimited, or even "Truly Unlimited" (verbatim; as marketed) it doesn't have any limits. It's like turning on the hose to your house and the bill stays the same.
Transfer of data is in bytes, and I should be able to use that data transfer as I see fit and on whatever screen I choose.
You’re talking about two different things. The water that comes to your home can be used in any way possible, but it only moves at, let’s say, a gallon every 20 seconds. Same with data speeds.
The thing with which people take issue is the fact that they can’t use their 20 bit per second data for any way possible, AND that the 20 bits can become 10 after arbitrary thresholds.
Comments
By there's also countless others that use less than those 2GB, so while they lose on one hand they win exponentially with the other.
It's not the data, it's the wireless bandwidth being monopolized. In some instances someone can monopolize the entire HSPDA/LTE channel in their sector, which cripples everyone connected to that MSC, in turn crippling everyone the sector for about a mile.
The large network carriers (eg AT&T, T-Mobile, Verizon) own their networks, so the bandwidth costs them nothing save for what goes over someone elses lines. Torrent traffic is one example where a carrier can not optimize routing because there is no single peer that bandwidth can cost them zero.
eg. If you download file X, and it's 1TB in size, it will be divided into about a million segments of 1MB each and the torrent software will try to pull somewhere from 4 to 100 peers. If most of these peers are in China, then it's going to cost the carrier money if the carrier itself doesn't have a peer to go over. Large carriers hate paying transit, so they pretty much don't. The customer does. Cogent and Level 3 are the worst offenders for de-peering due to screwing their peers by routing traffic through their peers so they pay nothing and their peers pay everything.
So again, ISP's only control over transit costs is de-peering, which is exactly what T-mobile is doing to customers who are dilibertly pushing traffic over their mobile device (which is expensive bandwidth) instead of over wired fixed connections with lower costs.
Like, I'm all for T-mobile dropping customers entirely if customers are being scummy like this.
FYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tier_1_network
AT&T, Verizon, Sprint and T-Mobile (Deutsche Telekom) are all considered Tier 1 networks, hence bandwidth costs them probably nothing.
While what you say may well be true. However unless T-Mobile has to install additional equipment to be able to handle what these 3000 individuals are doing, there is no additional cost to T-Mobile. If they lose customers because of one or more of these individuals is sucking up so much bandwidth that it makes the experience of others unacceptable then that sounds more like a technology problem. How would it be different if they were legitimately using a paying for this much data. I remember having a conversation back in the late 80's with a musician friend who used midi files to record his music. I said to him won't it be great when you can make a true digital recording instead of this simulated crap? His response was that will never happen. He pointed out how big files of that nature would be and there was not enough storage in the world to handle it based on what a megabyte costs. We need to be carful about arguing for our limitations. It slows us down and keeps us from moving forward more quickly. There should be no reason why the amount of data should ever be a limitation. Wait and see.
While what you say may well be true. However unless T-Mobile has to install additional equipment to be able to handle what these 3000 individuals are doing, there is no additional cost to T-Mobile. If they lose customers because of one or more of these individuals is sucking up so much bandwidth that it makes the experience of others unacceptable then that sounds more like a technology problem. How would it be different if they were legitimately using a paying for this much data. I remember having a conversation back in the late 80's with a musician friend who used midi files to record his music. I said to him won't it be great when you can make a true digital recording instead of this simulated crap? His response was that will never happen. He pointed out how big files of that nature would be and there was not enough storage in the world to handle it based on what a megabyte costs. We need to be carful about arguing for our limitations. It slows us down and keeps us from moving forward more quickly. There should be no reason why the amount of data should ever be a limitation. Wait and see.
T-Mobile probably didn't install equipment to accommodate 3000 abusers, those abusers just degraded the performance of the cell site they were connected to. I don't know how more obvious it can be that T-Mobile does not have infinite network resources. If people need unlimited data service then they should read the fine print and T-Mobile should amend their contracts and disclosure so that limits are clear. The general attitude of people in first world countries is that everything is available in unlimited resource is this is far from the truth.
I'm old enough to remember calls from a home phone were metered. It was like a dime per call. Then came "all you can eat" number of calls for a fixed price. Then you had to get a separate long distance carrier, and they charged by the minute. (I remember calling home with 2 rings and hanging up to let my parents know I got home.)
Until recently I had a grandfathered AT&T plan with unlimited data. I never used more than a few gigs, tops. AT&T wouldn't let me tether, but like texting, I simply didn't need the functionality. With some recent changes in the plans though, by dumping the unlimited (can't go back!) I save about $400/yr, and got tethering and texting capability.
At some point, the infrastructure simply becomes trivial to expand because of the dropping cost of technology. At some point, data transmission will become so easy to deploy, that charging for data becomes an untenable business proposition. Then what?
By there's also countless others that use less than those 2GB, so while they lose on one hand they win exponentially with the other.
Not so, if a user only uses 1/4 that (light user) at 500mb that only equals 4:1 ratio, these guys are pulling at 1000:1
So equals out? not really
?How 'bout I send you a ten dollar bill and you send me 250 ten dollar bills back, ok?
But you're comparing 3000 users, to hundreds of thousands if not millions of users. I'm not suggesting letting them get away with it because then number of them can grow and really put a strain on the network.
T-Mobile probably didn't install equipment to accommodate 3000 abusers, those abusers just degraded the performance of the cell site they were connected to. I don't know how more obvious it can be that T-Mobile does not have infinite network resources. If people need unlimited data service then they should read the fine print and T-Mobile should amend their contracts and disclosure so that limits are clear. The general attitude of people in first world countries is that everything is available in unlimited resource is this is far from the truth.
But you're comparing 3000 users, to hundreds of thousands if not millions of users. I'm not suggesting letting them get away with it because then number of them can grow and really put a strain on the network.
Ah it's not their network it's the tower backhaul (the connection from the tower to the internet trunk) which are typically very limited (which is why when you have special events, the data connection from local towers can be dead slow (or inaccessible) (too much data down a too small pipe))
Just did a quick calculation, these users have to be pulling right around 7 mbps (mega bits per second) 24/7 (constantly, day and night) to get to those kind of usage data numbers. That's pretty excessive, particularly given you are tethering a server or bit-torrent client onto your phone (the only way I could see reaching that kind of constant usage level)
Seriously these are the kind of dicks who's abuse cause telcos to have to not offer "unlimited" plans to the normal users. (I gave up unlimited plan I had from my original iPhone plan last year) Point is, yes the telco's can be dicks (and I will call them out when they are) but lets not give these dicks a pass. Their abuse (or more accurately the abuse of those like them) is why you and I ("normal users") no longer have unlimited plans offered on AT&T.
Transfer of data is in bytes, and I should be able to use that data transfer as I see fit and on whatever screen I choose. It could be email, web browsing, YouTube Videos, music streaming. If it's limited in the amount of data transferred, or what screen its on, it doesn't exactly fit the definition of "Unlimited" or even "Truly Unlimited".
However, in Germany, (T-Mobile is a German company) they have odd definitions of words throughout history. Back during World War II, people at Auschwitz were lied to about the definition of the word "shower".
The way tethering is determined, at least on Apple platforms, is by changing your web browser's "User Agent".
And yes, there are legitimate reasons to change your User Agent. For example, I may want to view a desktop version of a web page. When I change my User Agent, T-Mobile will count that particular data transfer as "tethering". Over all, its a terrible method for accounting for data. T-Mobile knows it too. T-Mobile eavesdrops on your connection to determine your "user agent". It's technology Deutsche Telekom created in early 2008.
Point is, to change the way the data is accounted for and billed, I believe you'd just need to install an app which is available in the iTunes App Store.
Transfer of data is in bytes, and I should be able to use that data transfer as I see fit and on whatever screen I choose.
You’re talking about two different things. The water that comes to your home can be used in any way possible, but it only moves at, let’s say, a gallon every 20 seconds. Same with data speeds.
The thing with which people take issue is the fact that they can’t use their 20 bit per second data for any way possible, AND that the 20 bits can become 10 after arbitrary thresholds.