So I walk into an Apple Store, buy an iPhone or Mac, you're saying I'm a moron that deserves spyware because I didn't "reformat" it?
Apple is very good for not loading their computers will crapware and bloatware off the shelve, but I was of course referring to Windows laptops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
I'd say anyone who bought a computer that needed to be reformatted day-one, is a moron for selecting the wrong computer.
So there is no 'right' computer for me to buy as they don't have my personal images on them. Is that correct? What about corporations with their own images? I doubt those come off the shelf, either.
Apple is very good for not loading their computers will crapware and bloatware off the shelve, but I was of course referring to Windows laptops.
And? Crapware, bloatware, and other space sold on your device isn't necessary nefarious in nature or spying on you. Additionally, you have no idea if there is a rootkit installed, and even if there is, "reformatting" wouldn't do squat, but you still decided to call the average person that buys a computing device "a moron that deserves spyware" because they didn't format their machine. The real question is why you still have this 1970's mentality that only those who are computer engineers should use a computing device, and yet most people don't know how to research the average Windows or Android-based device to make sure they can install their own choice of OS, have all the necessary drivers sourced and ready to go for the installation. It's fucking ridiculous to think that should be a requirement.
So there is no 'right' computer for me to buy as they don't have my personal images on them. Is that correct? What about corporations with their own images? I doubt those come off the shelf, either.
Now it's about your personal images and corporations with their personal images, not the average customer that needs a new machine. That is NOT what your original comment said, when you called anyone that doesn't reformat a store bought computer "a moron that deserves spyware."
And? Crapware, bloatware, and other space sold on your device isn't necessary nefarious in nature or spying on you. Additionally, you have no idea if there is a rootkit installed, and even if there is, "reformatting" wouldn't do squat,
On a personal level, I despise bloatware more than being spied on. If I'm using a commercial OS, then I'm fairly acceptant to the fact that the company (be it Google, Apple of Microsoft) is spying on me and frankly there's no getting around that this day in age. As for rootkits, Lenovo's recent issue with the Service Engine tool was absolute reprehensible and there is no defending it; trust me I'm not trying to. Shit like that is the reason the enterprise I help maintain not only reformats but also flashes a custom UEFI/BIOS on what we can. I usually don't wear my tinfoil hat enough to do that on my personal machines, but I do keep a library of images for personal use I deploy to computers I buy for ease of setup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
you still decided to call the average person that buys a computing device "a moron that deserves spyware" because they didn't format their machine.
The average computer user these days is a moron. There's no getting over that. If they weren't, then we'd still be living in a world of insanely complex, obtrusive operating systems with incredibly unhelpful user-facing information. The average person who wants a computers pops down to walmart or tesco and buys whatever has the lowest number next to price and wants it to work at the touch of a button, they don't want to set it up. Companies exploit this, knowing full well that the average joe isn't going to set up their computer beyond giving it an account name and keep all those "Send data to us for marketing?" fields in their default 'yes' position.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
The real question is why you still have this 1970's mentality that only those who are computer engineers should use a computing device, and yet most people don't know how to research the average Windows or Android-based device to make sure they can install their own choice of OS, have all the necessary drivers sourced and ready to go for the installation. It's fucking ridiculous to think that should be a requirement.
I by no means think that it's a requirement, computing should be open to anyone who wants to use a computer. However, if people aren't prepared to at least learn a little about it then I'm not going to feel sorry when they discover that their favorite computer company is selling their information. Lenovo's acts with the rootkits recently need to be made far more public, as should the sheer amount of bloatware on computers sold these days. The average consumer probably couldn't even comprehend re-installing windows, and the big manufacturers - Dell, Lenovo, HP and wahtnot - all exploit this. Both for distributing their own products and for gaining marketing data through use of 'spyware' as it's there in the T&C that they are allowed to mine this information.
Again, I don't defend it - I detest the practice - and think that more people should be educated on how to eliminate any worth companies would gain from these types of pre-installations. Just because I think the average consumer is a moron doesn't mean I don't want them to use computers, quite the opposite, I encourage anyone who wants to know more to go out there and learn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
Now it's about your personal images and corporations with their personal images, not the average customer that needs a new machine. That is NOT what your original comment said, when you called anyone that doesn't reformat a store bought computer "a moron that deserves spyware."
The post I quoted quoted a post asking why Lenovo was growing so fast. I haven't exactly read through their press releases but my guess is because they are growing fast die to their takeover of IBM's hardware manufacturing division, which a lot of businesses use. Strictly, I wasn't talking about either businesses or individuals, but I beleive point stands. I don't trust any company to deliver a bloat-free OS, with the exception of Apple, currently, though I'm aware there are arguments for and against the pre-installed suite of situationally useful/less applications they have installed. I'd encourage anyone buying a windows computer off the shelf to go and get an ISO of windows from Microsoft's website [free] and plug in the serial on the bottom of the laptop during installation. It'll be a far better experience.
The average computer user these days is a moron. There's no getting over that. If they weren't, then we'd still be living in a world of insanely complex, obtrusive operating systems with incredibly unhelpful user-facing information.
So they don't have engineering degree in computer science and don't prefer an overly complex computing experience it means they are a stupid person who in no way could be proficient, much less a genius who is at the top of their chosen field, if they simply want tools to work for them. You really think you sound like a reasonable person with such statements? :no:
However, if people aren't prepared to at least learn a little about it then I'm not going to feel sorry when they discover that their favorite computer company is selling their information.
No, your comments in no way expressed "learning a little about" anything, but a very specific and clear comments about remove the OS from a computing device, finding a replacement OS, and all the drivers for that new HW. In the case of Android that would also mean unlocking the boot loader and flashing the ROM after verifying the image you found is from a reliable source. Well, I guess I'm a moron for not wanting to go through all that crap, just as I guess most people in my family, who are well educated and successful, simply because they'd rather something just work. But I'm sure you mean the moronic things you said about computers computers which is why I'm sure you flashed all the ROMs in your car after you verified every piece of code before reinstalling¡
So they don't have engineering degree in computer science and don't prefer an overly complex computing experience it means they are a stupid person who in no way could be proficient, much less a genius who is at the top of their chosen field, if they simply want tools to work for them. You really think you sound like a reasonable person with such statements?
No, they don't need an engineering degree nor any form of specialist education to do a very simple re-installation of windows from a freely available ISO. It's about as difficult and time consuming as adjusting the mirrors and seat in a new car these days. The average moronic computer user thinks this is worth a $129.99 call to Staples and this is why they don't do it. It's a very, very simple and quick process, and if their answer is either forking that out or having spyware, they are a moron that deserves such spyware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
No, your comments in no way expressed "learning a little about" anything
I encourage all to not be morons. Only a moron refuses to learn. Go forth and learn, all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
remove the OS from a computing device,
Literally part of the install process. I think it's the fourth click, though don't quote me on that exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
finding a replacement OS
Because google is hard. You can download it directly from Microsoft's website, ready to stick on a USB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
all the drivers for that new HW.
If you've built a custom computer then you are probably getting individual drivers anyway, but alternatively if you're not into that then Windows driver-signing clauses changes caused anything pulled from wupdate these days is 99.99% going to be the driver you want, and this'll be fine for average joe consumer. Again, not time consuming and literally part of the install (click 3!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
Well, I guess I'm a moron for not wanting to go through all that crap, just as I guess most people in my family, who are well educated and successful, simply because they'd rather something just work.
Seeing as this is an Apple forum I'm guessing you have a Macbook so it's a moot point, but that doesn't preclude you having Windows/other laptops also. I do ask you, would you keep an off-the-shelf windows image on a laptop knowing the sheer amount of junk they are loaded with? If so, why? Android suffers massively from this problem and it's one of the thing I hate about carrier images. It's consuming hardware resources that can be put toward other things, it's slowing down your computer and ultimately reducing its lifespan before it becomes slow and requires a re-image anyway. Not to mention, probably spying on you, though personal opinions vary on how important this is. I encourage my family to put clean installs on their hardware, and frankly in good conscience couldn't let them keep crapware on their computers without at the very minimum at least trying to uninstall and block a lot of it (Probably a lot more hassle than a reformat, anyway)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
But I'm sure you mean the moronic things you said about computers computers which is why I'm sure you flashed all the ROMs in your car after you verified every piece of code before reinstalling¡
I'll freely admit I'm a moron when it comes to cars. I don't know how to car. Would I re-install the car's OS if I could? Eh, dunno. Depends what it did, or what I was gaining, but to me at least it's a far more daunting task than simply installing windows again. If the car had software, that, say, all of a sudden took over what you are doing and drove you to McDonalds as a marketing tactic? Probably, yes - I'd reformat it with an axe. That's what some of this corporate spyware essentially pushes and shoves in your face. Heck, it'd be annoying enough if a GPS came up with restaurant suggestions along the way. Recent reports on the amount of data android auto collects was indeed disturbing and it would put me off the whole thing, but thankfully these claims seem to have been rebuked by a few companies.
If you've built a custom computer then you are probably getting individual drivers anyway,
I've done lots of things, including having trouble finding drivers, especially for notebooks, but also for desktops, when trying to get around using the OEM SW to restore the system.
You know what century this is, right? You know that most customers buy notebooks… and have for a very, very long time. Trying to defend your point by switching the conversation to DIY computer towers: moronic.
Seeing as this is an Apple forum you probably have a MacBook so it's a moot point.
I have lots of things, including but not limited to Windows machines, which is how I know your comments are full of shit and utterly ridiculous to call people morons for not formatting a new computer from a major OEM purchased from a major retailer.
Claiming that locating the right version of Windows for your machine, finding all the drivers, creating a bootable USB flash drive, and reinstalling and setting up the system is "as easy as adjusting a mirror or seats in a car": moronic.
I'll freely admit I'm a moron when it comes to cars. I don't know how to car. could? Eh, dunno. Depends what it did, or what I was gaining, but to me at least it's a far more daunting task than simply installing windows again. If the car had software, that, say, all of a sudden took over what you are doing and drove you to McDonalds as a marketing tactic? Probably, yes - I'd reformat it with an axe. That's what some of this corporate spyware essentially pushes and shoves in your face. Heck, it'd be annoying enough if a GPS came up with restaurant suggestions along the way. Recent reports on the amount of data android auto collects was indeed disturbing and it would put me off the whole thing, but thankfully these claims seem to have been rebuked by a few companies.
So you take something like the potential for factory installed spyware that the customer would likely never know about, and equate it to your literally taking over and driving you to McDonald's. Can you guess what I'd say about such a ridiculous comparison?
Probably, yes - I'd reformat it with an axe.
Not surprising as you really don't seem like the kind of person that could understand the precision of something like a scalpel.
You know what century this is, right? You know that most customers buy notebooks… and have for a very, very long time. Trying to defend your point by switching the conversation to DIY computer towers: moronic.
Sorry, there was a typo in that paragraph you quoted which changed the meaning slightly. I re-worded the opening sentence. Yes, I'm aware that custom builds aren't the most popular thing and didn't mean it as the sole side of the argument.
(But ironically, I do think PC building has become a lot easier in the past decade and I've seen a lot more marketing for parts. I wonder how much they have changed in popularity considering it's an easy way to save upwards of a thousand dollars, depending on what you want. It's also a discussion for a different topic.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
I have lots of things, including but not limited to Windows machines, which is how I know your comments are full of shit and utterly ridiculous to call people morons for not formatting a new computer from a major OEM purchased from a major retailer.
Claiming that locating the right version of Windows for your machine, finding all the drivers, creating a bootable USB flash drive, and reinstalling and setting up the system is "as easy as adjusting a mirror or seats in a car": moronic.
Really am going to guess that you've not done it recently or didn't read the rest of what I wrote. I've been impressed by how simple OSX's installation process has been for a while now, and I'm impressed Microsoft managed to simplify it further still. It's literally 5 clicks (install, next, custom, select, next) and about 10 minutes if you have an SSD in said laptop. Drivers are pulled as part of the install, too, but I'm aware that number can change depending on internet speed, though a lot can also be pulled from the ISO.
Which part would you say is difficult?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
So you take something like the potential for factory installed spyware that the customer would likely never know about, and equate it to your literally taking over and driving you to McDonald's. Can you guess what I'd say about such a ridiculous comparison?
A ridiculous comparison, sure, but it's a heinous act that people shouldn't stand for. And wouldn't, if it were in their car. Why do people put up with crapware in their computers? My guess is because they either are not aware or do not care, because in both these scenarios the average consumer is an idiot and that should change. More people should know this kind of guff exists. It's a lot of junk like trial versions to make you try and buy retail, it consumers memory, HD space, makes your computer boot slower (and sometimes sell your data, too) - why wouldn't you want to get rid of it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismY
Not surprising as you really don't seem like the kind of person that could understand the precision of something like a scalpel.
If you re-do the Total rows to include everyone but Apple (i.e. Windows PCs), you find that worldwide shipments fell 8.3%, not 7.7%, and in the U.S. grew 0.3%, not 1.3%.
Comments
So I walk into an Apple Store, buy an iPhone or Mac, you're saying I'm a moron that deserves spyware because I didn't "reformat" it?
Apple is very good for not loading their computers will crapware and bloatware off the shelve, but I was of course referring to Windows laptops.
I'd say anyone who bought a computer that needed to be reformatted day-one, is a moron for selecting the wrong computer.
So there is no 'right' computer for me to buy as they don't have my personal images on them. Is that correct? What about corporations with their own images? I doubt those come off the shelf, either.
And? Crapware, bloatware, and other space sold on your device isn't necessary nefarious in nature or spying on you. Additionally, you have no idea if there is a rootkit installed, and even if there is, "reformatting" wouldn't do squat, but you still decided to call the average person that buys a computing device "a moron that deserves spyware" because they didn't format their machine. The real question is why you still have this 1970's mentality that only those who are computer engineers should use a computing device, and yet most people don't know how to research the average Windows or Android-based device to make sure they can install their own choice of OS, have all the necessary drivers sourced and ready to go for the installation. It's fucking ridiculous to think that should be a requirement.
Now it's about your personal images and corporations with their personal images, not the average customer that needs a new machine. That is NOT what your original comment said, when you called anyone that doesn't reformat a store bought computer "a moron that deserves spyware."
And? Crapware, bloatware, and other space sold on your device isn't necessary nefarious in nature or spying on you. Additionally, you have no idea if there is a rootkit installed, and even if there is, "reformatting" wouldn't do squat,
On a personal level, I despise bloatware more than being spied on. If I'm using a commercial OS, then I'm fairly acceptant to the fact that the company (be it Google, Apple of Microsoft) is spying on me and frankly there's no getting around that this day in age. As for rootkits, Lenovo's recent issue with the Service Engine tool was absolute reprehensible and there is no defending it; trust me I'm not trying to. Shit like that is the reason the enterprise I help maintain not only reformats but also flashes a custom UEFI/BIOS on what we can. I usually don't wear my tinfoil hat enough to do that on my personal machines, but I do keep a library of images for personal use I deploy to computers I buy for ease of setup.
Quote:
you still decided to call the average person that buys a computing device "a moron that deserves spyware" because they didn't format their machine.
The average computer user these days is a moron. There's no getting over that. If they weren't, then we'd still be living in a world of insanely complex, obtrusive operating systems with incredibly unhelpful user-facing information. The average person who wants a computers pops down to walmart or tesco and buys whatever has the lowest number next to price and wants it to work at the touch of a button, they don't want to set it up. Companies exploit this, knowing full well that the average joe isn't going to set up their computer beyond giving it an account name and keep all those "Send data to us for marketing?" fields in their default 'yes' position.
Quote:
The real question is why you still have this 1970's mentality that only those who are computer engineers should use a computing device, and yet most people don't know how to research the average Windows or Android-based device to make sure they can install their own choice of OS, have all the necessary drivers sourced and ready to go for the installation. It's fucking ridiculous to think that should be a requirement.
I by no means think that it's a requirement, computing should be open to anyone who wants to use a computer. However, if people aren't prepared to at least learn a little about it then I'm not going to feel sorry when they discover that their favorite computer company is selling their information. Lenovo's acts with the rootkits recently need to be made far more public, as should the sheer amount of bloatware on computers sold these days. The average consumer probably couldn't even comprehend re-installing windows, and the big manufacturers - Dell, Lenovo, HP and wahtnot - all exploit this. Both for distributing their own products and for gaining marketing data through use of 'spyware' as it's there in the T&C that they are allowed to mine this information.
Again, I don't defend it - I detest the practice - and think that more people should be educated on how to eliminate any worth companies would gain from these types of pre-installations. Just because I think the average consumer is a moron doesn't mean I don't want them to use computers, quite the opposite, I encourage anyone who wants to know more to go out there and learn.
Quote:
Now it's about your personal images and corporations with their personal images, not the average customer that needs a new machine. That is NOT what your original comment said, when you called anyone that doesn't reformat a store bought computer "a moron that deserves spyware."
The post I quoted quoted a post asking why Lenovo was growing so fast. I haven't exactly read through their press releases but my guess is because they are growing fast die to their takeover of IBM's hardware manufacturing division, which a lot of businesses use. Strictly, I wasn't talking about either businesses or individuals, but I beleive point stands. I don't trust any company to deliver a bloat-free OS, with the exception of Apple, currently, though I'm aware there are arguments for and against the pre-installed suite of situationally useful/less applications they have installed. I'd encourage anyone buying a windows computer off the shelf to go and get an ISO of windows from Microsoft's website [free] and plug in the serial on the bottom of the laptop during installation. It'll be a far better experience.
So they don't have engineering degree in computer science and don't prefer an overly complex computing experience it means they are a stupid person who in no way could be proficient, much less a genius who is at the top of their chosen field, if they simply want tools to work for them. You really think you sound like a reasonable person with such statements? :no:
No, your comments in no way expressed "learning a little about" anything, but a very specific and clear comments about remove the OS from a computing device, finding a replacement OS, and all the drivers for that new HW. In the case of Android that would also mean unlocking the boot loader and flashing the ROM after verifying the image you found is from a reliable source. Well, I guess I'm a moron for not wanting to go through all that crap, just as I guess most people in my family, who are well educated and successful, simply because they'd rather something just work. But I'm sure you mean the moronic things you said about computers computers which is why I'm sure you flashed all the ROMs in your car after you verified every piece of code before reinstalling¡
So they don't have engineering degree in computer science and don't prefer an overly complex computing experience it means they are a stupid person who in no way could be proficient, much less a genius who is at the top of their chosen field, if they simply want tools to work for them. You really think you sound like a reasonable person with such statements?
No, they don't need an engineering degree nor any form of specialist education to do a very simple re-installation of windows from a freely available ISO. It's about as difficult and time consuming as adjusting the mirrors and seat in a new car these days. The average moronic computer user thinks this is worth a $129.99 call to Staples and this is why they don't do it. It's a very, very simple and quick process, and if their answer is either forking that out or having spyware, they are a moron that deserves such spyware.
No, your comments in no way expressed "learning a little about" anything
I encourage all to not be morons. Only a moron refuses to learn. Go forth and learn, all.
remove the OS from a computing device,
Literally part of the install process. I think it's the fourth click, though don't quote me on that exactly.
finding a replacement OS
Because google is hard. You can download it directly from Microsoft's website, ready to stick on a USB.
all the drivers for that new HW.
If you've built a custom computer then you are probably getting individual drivers anyway, but alternatively if you're not into that then Windows driver-signing clauses changes caused anything pulled from wupdate these days is 99.99% going to be the driver you want, and this'll be fine for average joe consumer. Again, not time consuming and literally part of the install (click 3!).
Well, I guess I'm a moron for not wanting to go through all that crap, just as I guess most people in my family, who are well educated and successful, simply because they'd rather something just work.
Seeing as this is an Apple forum I'm guessing you have a Macbook so it's a moot point, but that doesn't preclude you having Windows/other laptops also. I do ask you, would you keep an off-the-shelf windows image on a laptop knowing the sheer amount of junk they are loaded with? If so, why? Android suffers massively from this problem and it's one of the thing I hate about carrier images. It's consuming hardware resources that can be put toward other things, it's slowing down your computer and ultimately reducing its lifespan before it becomes slow and requires a re-image anyway. Not to mention, probably spying on you, though personal opinions vary on how important this is. I encourage my family to put clean installs on their hardware, and frankly in good conscience couldn't let them keep crapware on their computers without at the very minimum at least trying to uninstall and block a lot of it (Probably a lot more hassle than a reformat, anyway)
But I'm sure you mean the moronic things you said about computers computers which is why I'm sure you flashed all the ROMs in your car after you verified every piece of code before reinstalling¡
I'll freely admit I'm a moron when it comes to cars. I don't know how to car. Would I re-install the car's OS if I could? Eh, dunno. Depends what it did, or what I was gaining, but to me at least it's a far more daunting task than simply installing windows again. If the car had software, that, say, all of a sudden took over what you are doing and drove you to McDonalds as a marketing tactic? Probably, yes - I'd reformat it with an axe. That's what some of this corporate spyware essentially pushes and shoves in your face. Heck, it'd be annoying enough if a GPS came up with restaurant suggestions along the way. Recent reports on the amount of data android auto collects was indeed disturbing and it would put me off the whole thing, but thankfully these claims seem to have been rebuked by a few companies.
I've done lots of things, including having trouble finding drivers, especially for notebooks, but also for desktops, when trying to get around using the OEM SW to restore the system.
You know what century this is, right? You know that most customers buy notebooks… and have for a very, very long time. Trying to defend your point by switching the conversation to DIY computer towers: moronic.
I have lots of things, including but not limited to Windows machines, which is how I know your comments are full of shit and utterly ridiculous to call people morons for not formatting a new computer from a major OEM purchased from a major retailer.
Claiming that locating the right version of Windows for your machine, finding all the drivers, creating a bootable USB flash drive, and reinstalling and setting up the system is "as easy as adjusting a mirror or seats in a car": moronic.
So you take something like the potential for factory installed spyware that the customer would likely never know about, and equate it to your literally taking over and driving you to McDonald's. Can you guess what I'd say about such a ridiculous comparison?
Not surprising as you really don't seem like the kind of person that could understand the precision of something like a scalpel.
You know what century this is, right? You know that most customers buy notebooks… and have for a very, very long time. Trying to defend your point by switching the conversation to DIY computer towers: moronic.
Sorry, there was a typo in that paragraph you quoted which changed the meaning slightly. I re-worded the opening sentence. Yes, I'm aware that custom builds aren't the most popular thing and didn't mean it as the sole side of the argument.
(But ironically, I do think PC building has become a lot easier in the past decade and I've seen a lot more marketing for parts. I wonder how much they have changed in popularity considering it's an easy way to save upwards of a thousand dollars, depending on what you want. It's also a discussion for a different topic.)
Quote:
I have lots of things, including but not limited to Windows machines, which is how I know your comments are full of shit and utterly ridiculous to call people morons for not formatting a new computer from a major OEM purchased from a major retailer.
Claiming that locating the right version of Windows for your machine, finding all the drivers, creating a bootable USB flash drive, and reinstalling and setting up the system is "as easy as adjusting a mirror or seats in a car": moronic.
Really am going to guess that you've not done it recently or didn't read the rest of what I wrote. I've been impressed by how simple OSX's installation process has been for a while now, and I'm impressed Microsoft managed to simplify it further still. It's literally 5 clicks (install, next, custom, select, next) and about 10 minutes if you have an SSD in said laptop. Drivers are pulled as part of the install, too, but I'm aware that number can change depending on internet speed, though a lot can also be pulled from the ISO.
Which part would you say is difficult?
Quote:
So you take something like the potential for factory installed spyware that the customer would likely never know about, and equate it to your literally taking over and driving you to McDonald's. Can you guess what I'd say about such a ridiculous comparison?
A ridiculous comparison, sure, but it's a heinous act that people shouldn't stand for. And wouldn't, if it were in their car. Why do people put up with crapware in their computers? My guess is because they either are not aware or do not care, because in both these scenarios the average consumer is an idiot and that should change. More people should know this kind of guff exists. It's a lot of junk like trial versions to make you try and buy retail, it consumers memory, HD space, makes your computer boot slower (and sometimes sell your data, too) - why wouldn't you want to get rid of it?
Quote:Not surprising as you really don't seem like the kind of person that could understand the precision of something like a scalpel.
What?