I'm also hoping they get over using AMD and go back to NVIDIA
nVidia GPUs failed them twice in the past and forced recalls. They’re probably not happy about that, even though ATI doesn’t have a CLUE how to power manage.
Soldered RAM. Non upgradable, 5400 drives. No upgrade to Thunderbolt 3 or USB 3.1. Who asked for this?
Seriously, who's the target customer for the 21" iMac?
The lower end is moving to iOS devices, and the iPad Pro will accelerate that.
The rest of us actually care about RAM upgradability and faster drives, even if we're just using iMovie to edit 4K video. Are there still enough "newbies" to the Mac these days to buy these things?
Note: I'm speaking specifically about the 21.5" model.
You gotta remember that Macs and other desktop personal computers are general purpose devices. Translation... they are used by a wide variety of users and use cases.
They are used by the average user checking email and doing light internet tasks... all the way up to professionals doing heavy tasks like video editing.
You and I would never buy the 21.5" iMac... but there's clearly a market for it. An $1,100 iMac? Yep... people will by it. (though it would be wise to pay the extra $200 and get the next 21.5" model...)
The issue of soldered RAM won't affect the vast majority of users. How many average users already have empty RAM slots in their Windows PCs yet never user them? I would guess it would be most of them.
Not everybody needs a fire-breathing supercomputer with vast upgradability. Some just need a computer for the basics.
Soldered RAM. Non upgradable, 5400 drives. No upgrade to Thunderbolt 3 or USB 3.1.
Who asked for this?
Seriously, who's the target customer for the 21" iMac?
The lower end is moving to iOS devices, and the iPad Pro will accelerate that.
The rest of us actually care about RAM upgradability and faster drives, even if we're just using iMovie to edit 4K video.
Are there still enough "newbies" to the Mac these days to buy these things?
Note: I'm speaking specifically about the 21.5" model.
It's drops to flash storage on their Fusion Drives which get me. They've dropped it down to 24GB from 128GB, and still charge $200 extra for one more TB or alternatively a whopping $900 to get a 1TB SSD . A 1TB SSD will cost me no more than $350 these days for a good one!
You gotta remember that Macs and other desktop personal computers are general purpose devices. Translation... they are used by a wide variety of users and use cases.
They are used by the average user checking email and doing light internet tasks... all the way up to professionals doing heavy tasks like video editing.
Even 7 or 8 years ago, there were a lot of low end consumers using iMacs.
Today, if someone tells you their parents want a computer just to check email and surf the web, you direct them to the iPad.
That's what I mean, a lot of those "average users" don't exist anymore. Students have gone entirely to laptops and iPads.
So who's Apple really building the 21" iMac for? Any home users editing video will eventually feel the slower drive. Do small businesses really not care that they can't add RAM in-house, and will have to lose the workstation for days to an Apple Store with company data on it?
It's hard for me to envision a huge Mac demographic that doesn't eventually get riled by using soldered RAM and 5400 rpm drives.
Even 7 or 8 years ago, there were a lot of low end consumers using iMacs.
Today, if someone tells you their parents want a computer just to check email and surf the web, you direct them to the iPad.
That's what I mean, a lot of those "average users" don't exist anymore. Students have gone entirely to laptops and iPads.
So who's Apple really building the 21" iMac for? Any home users editing video will eventually feel the slower drive. Do small businesses really not care that they can't add RAM in-house, and will have to lose the workstation for days to an Apple Store with company data on it?
It's hard for me to envision a huge Mac demographic that doesn't eventually get riled by using soldered RAM and 5400 rpm drives.
Ah I see. Yeah... average users don't seem to be using desktop computers anymore. But Apple has had something occupying that spot in the iMac lineup for years. Obviously they know it will sell.
That's why there are ranges of products. Perhaps the breakdown of iMac sales are 20% entry-level... 50% mid-range... and 30% high-end. I don't know... just spitballing here. It's obviously enough for Apple to keep it around.
Maybe Apple shouldn't even offer the cheaper $1,100 iMac. But imagine if they got rid of it and the 27" model for $1,800 was the entry-level model. That doesn't sound good either.
And again with the soldered RAM thing. There are hundreds of millions of computers out there that have empty RAM sockets that are NEVER used. Have you ever seen the inside of an average PC?
It's RAM sockets and PCI slots galore.... and ignored:
But Apple makes a computer that cannot have its RAM or other internal parts upgraded and you think it's the worst thing ever.
Id be shocked if they have actaully soldered them on. There's not much point. When my 21. 1 2012 imac died from a faulty motherboard they changed that, and later they had to go back and change the ram by opening it up which had fried during the dodgy MB. Why add costs to their repairs by forcing a MB changing? it's not user accessible anyway.
I think a great point is brought up here. Doe this machine need to be so thin? I have 3 of these. 2 currently running 1 on order. They are fantastic machines. Highly recommended. What can you really gain if you make them thicker? I think it is a good thing to mull over...curious on thoughts here...
Ah I see. Yeah... average users don't seem to be using desktop computers anymore. But Apple has had something occupying that spot in the iMac lineup for years. Obviously they know it will sell.
That's why there are ranges of products. Perhaps the breakdown of iMac sales are 20% entry-level... 50% mid-range... and 30% high-end. I don't know... just spitballing here. It's obviously enough for Apple to keep it around.
Maybe Apple shouldn't even offer the cheaper $1,100 iMac. But imagine if they got rid of it and the 27" model for $1,800 was the entry-level model. That doesn't sound good either.
And again with the soldered RAM thing. There are hundreds of millions of computers out there that have empty RAM sockets that are NEVER used. Have you ever seen the inside of an average PC?
It's RAM sockets and PCI slots galore.... and ignored:
But Apple makes a computer that cannot have its RAM or other internal parts upgraded and you think it's the worst thing ever.
I don't think it's as big a deal as you think.
Since Mavericks, Apple has been very good at managing highly utilized RAM with memory compression and better paging/swapping algorithms.
I've noted that my 5 year old Mac Mini with 8GB is still faster than my 2014 work Windows box with 16GB of RAM, and better when memory is saturated (I like to toss 4 or 5 GB of data into R or PERL and muck around).
Note, SDD is fixes both systems quite well. Before upgrading memory, always upgrade to SDD, if for nothing else giving you 5-10X in paging/swapping speedups, let alone all the 'tmp' file manipulation (which I consider poor man's paging).
However, Once you get into virtualization and have a couple VMs running, then RAM is important (running a linux VM on either of my boxes makes them both slow)
nice upgrade... not for the video card.... really pissed off.... I use 3d software that needs gpu power from nvidia card at office and at home.... so.. ....I'd never think about making switch to shit pc.
It's drops to flash storage on their Fusion Drives which get me. They've dropped it down to 24GB from 128GB, and still charge $200 extra for one more TB or alternatively a whopping $900 to get a 1TB SSD . A 1TB SSD will cost me no more than $350 these days for a good one!
I cannot fathom why they charge so much.
The larger fusion drives still have 128gb SSD. It's only the cheaper machines that have the smaller drives and smaller SSD part to the fusion drives.
I don't get the rationale behind soldered RAM on a full desktop computer. Sure I get it on a portable, with all the space constraints and such, but on a 20+'' iMac?
That's just poor judgment. If by some unhappy chance someone get a faulty RAM, that quits on you just after AppleCare expires, that on itself will require full logic board replacement.
Non-user replaceable does not mean non-servicable. In the event of a RAM failure, it could still be replaced by a qualified service person. Not as convenient for the user, perhaps, but definitely repairable.
Id be shocked if they have actaully soldered them on. There's not much point.
When my 21. 1 2012 imac died from a faulty motherboard they changed that, and later they had to go back and change the ram by opening it up which had fried during the dodgy MB. Why add costs to their repairs by forcing a MB changing? it's not user accessible anyway.
Additional Cost to repair is probably minor compared to the cost savings of soldering.
Even 7 or 8 years ago, there were a lot of low end consumers using iMacs.
Today, if someone tells you their parents want a computer just to check email and surf the web, you direct them to the iPad.
That's what I mean, a lot of those "average users" don't exist anymore. Students have gone entirely to laptops and iPads.
So who's Apple really building the 21" iMac for? Any home users editing video will eventually feel the slower drive. Do small businesses really not care that they can't add RAM in-house, and will have to lose the workstation for days to an Apple Store with company data on it?
It's hard for me to envision a huge Mac demographic that doesn't eventually get riled by using soldered RAM and 5400 rpm drives.
Computer leasing is very popular in business. Lease, use for 2-3 years, turn in, Repeat. You only pay for the machine you need now, no need to future proof.
You gotta remember that Macs and other desktop personal computers are general purpose devices. Translation... they are used by a wide variety of users and use cases.
They are used by the average user checking email and doing light internet tasks... all the way up to professionals doing heavy tasks like video editing.
You and I would never buy the 21.5" iMac... but there's clearly a market for it. An $1,100 iMac? Yep... people will by it. (though it would be wise to pay the extra $200 and get the next 21.5" model...)
The issue of soldered RAM won't affect the vast majority of users. How many average users already have empty RAM slots in their Windows PCs yet never user them? I would guess it would be most of them.
Not everybody needs a fire-breathing supercomputer with vast upgradability. Some just need a computer for the basics.
Great argument except your advice to pay the extra $200 for the upgrade runs counter to everything you just laid out. You clearly, and correctly made the argument that many people just don't need that upgrade.
Soldered RAM. Non upgradable, 5400 drives. No upgrade to Thunderbolt 3 or USB 3.1.
Who asked for this?
Seriously, who's the target customer for the 21" iMac?
Seriously, get out and meet people in the real world sometime. People other than the tech enthusiasts who dominate the discussions on forums like this. Teachers, accountants, doctors/nurses, lawyers, etc. People who treat a computer like a car or an appliance: you buy it to serve some purpose, you don't know and don't really care how it works, if something goes wrong you take it in to be serviced, and when it can no longer serve your needs you buy a new one.
I'm sure if you talked to a car enthusiast, they'd tell you how you can get a cheap car and replace a few parts to make it into a race car, but are you willing to spend the effort to do that? Now replace car with computer and you get the idea.
Ah I see. Yeah... average users don't seem to be using desktop computers anymore. But Apple has had something occupying that spot in the iMac lineup for years. Obviously they know it will sell.
That's why there are ranges of products. Perhaps the breakdown of iMac sales are 20% entry-level... 50% mid-range... and 30% high-end. I don't know... just spitballing here. It's obviously enough for Apple to keep it around.
Maybe Apple shouldn't even offer the cheaper $1,100 iMac. But imagine if they got rid of it and the 27" model for $1,800 was the entry-level model. That doesn't sound good either.
And again with the soldered RAM thing. There are hundreds of millions of computers out there that have empty RAM sockets that are NEVER used. Have you ever seen the inside of an average PC?
It's RAM sockets and PCI slots galore.... and ignored:
But Apple makes a computer that cannot have its RAM or other internal parts upgraded and you think it's the worst thing ever.
I don't think it's as big a deal as you think.
I'm sorry Apple should not be selling any Macs with 5400 rpm drives in 2015. That's just plain embarrassing. It seems like Schiller is obsessed with making the entry level product something only somebody who didn't know any better would actually purchase. I get the whole range of products and people have different needs etc. but it should still be about making the best product for each price point, not how can I endure you spend more money,
Comments
Can someone tell me if I can put DDR4 RAM in the 27" iMac? If yes, is there a maximum frequency limit (can I put 2133MHz in it)?
Nope.. Wont see Thunderbolt 3 or DDR4 until next year.. which is what I'm waiting on. I'm also hoping they get over using AMD and go back to NVIDIA
nVidia GPUs failed them twice in the past and forced recalls. They’re probably not happy about that, even though ATI doesn’t have a CLUE how to power manage.
You gotta remember that Macs and other desktop personal computers are general purpose devices. Translation... they are used by a wide variety of users and use cases.
They are used by the average user checking email and doing light internet tasks... all the way up to professionals doing heavy tasks like video editing.
You and I would never buy the 21.5" iMac... but there's clearly a market for it. An $1,100 iMac? Yep... people will by it. (though it would be wise to pay the extra $200 and get the next 21.5" model...)
The issue of soldered RAM won't affect the vast majority of users. How many average users already have empty RAM slots in their Windows PCs yet never user them? I would guess it would be most of them.
Not everybody needs a fire-breathing supercomputer with vast upgradability. Some just need a computer for the basics.
Soldered RAM. Non upgradable, 5400 drives. No upgrade to Thunderbolt 3 or USB 3.1.
Who asked for this?
Seriously, who's the target customer for the 21" iMac?
The lower end is moving to iOS devices, and the iPad Pro will accelerate that.
The rest of us actually care about RAM upgradability and faster drives, even if we're just using iMovie to edit 4K video.
Are there still enough "newbies" to the Mac these days to buy these things?
Note: I'm speaking specifically about the 21.5" model.
It's drops to flash storage on their Fusion Drives which get me. They've dropped it down to 24GB from 128GB, and still charge $200 extra for one more TB or alternatively a whopping $900 to get a 1TB SSD . A 1TB SSD will cost me no more than $350 these days for a good one!
I cannot fathom why they charge so much.
You gotta remember that Macs and other desktop personal computers are general purpose devices. Translation... they are used by a wide variety of users and use cases.
They are used by the average user checking email and doing light internet tasks... all the way up to professionals doing heavy tasks like video editing.
Even 7 or 8 years ago, there were a lot of low end consumers using iMacs.
Today, if someone tells you their parents want a computer just to check email and surf the web, you direct them to the iPad.
That's what I mean, a lot of those "average users" don't exist anymore. Students have gone entirely to laptops and iPads.
So who's Apple really building the 21" iMac for? Any home users editing video will eventually feel the slower drive. Do small businesses really not care that they can't add RAM in-house, and will have to lose the workstation for days to an Apple Store with company data on it?
It's hard for me to envision a huge Mac demographic that doesn't eventually get riled by using soldered RAM and 5400 rpm drives.
Ah I see. Yeah... average users don't seem to be using desktop computers anymore. But Apple has had something occupying that spot in the iMac lineup for years. Obviously they know it will sell.
That's why there are ranges of products. Perhaps the breakdown of iMac sales are 20% entry-level... 50% mid-range... and 30% high-end. I don't know... just spitballing here. It's obviously enough for Apple to keep it around.
Maybe Apple shouldn't even offer the cheaper $1,100 iMac. But imagine if they got rid of it and the 27" model for $1,800 was the entry-level model. That doesn't sound good either.
And again with the soldered RAM thing. There are hundreds of millions of computers out there that have empty RAM sockets that are NEVER used. Have you ever seen the inside of an average PC?
It's RAM sockets and PCI slots galore.... and ignored:
But Apple makes a computer that cannot have its RAM or other internal parts upgraded and you think it's the worst thing ever.
I don't think it's as big a deal as you think.
When my 21. 1 2012 imac died from a faulty motherboard they changed that, and later they had to go back and change the ram by opening it up which had fried during the dodgy MB. Why add costs to their repairs by forcing a MB changing? it's not user accessible anyway.
Nope.. Wont see Thunderbolt 3 or DDR4 until next year.. which is what I'm waiting on. I'm also hoping they get over using AMD and go back to NVIDIA
Can USB-c replace Thunderbolt?
Why is Apple RAM and SSD more expensive than the very same product from the manufacturer?
You can never be too rich...or too thin...
or have too much RAM.
Ah I see. Yeah... average users don't seem to be using desktop computers anymore. But Apple has had something occupying that spot in the iMac lineup for years. Obviously they know it will sell.
That's why there are ranges of products. Perhaps the breakdown of iMac sales are 20% entry-level... 50% mid-range... and 30% high-end. I don't know... just spitballing here. It's obviously enough for Apple to keep it around.
Maybe Apple shouldn't even offer the cheaper $1,100 iMac. But imagine if they got rid of it and the 27" model for $1,800 was the entry-level model. That doesn't sound good either.
And again with the soldered RAM thing. There are hundreds of millions of computers out there that have empty RAM sockets that are NEVER used. Have you ever seen the inside of an average PC?
It's RAM sockets and PCI slots galore.... and ignored:
But Apple makes a computer that cannot have its RAM or other internal parts upgraded and you think it's the worst thing ever.
I don't think it's as big a deal as you think.
Since Mavericks, Apple has been very good at managing highly utilized RAM with memory compression and better paging/swapping algorithms.
I've noted that my 5 year old Mac Mini with 8GB is still faster than my 2014 work Windows box with 16GB of RAM, and better when memory is saturated (I like to toss 4 or 5 GB of data into R or PERL and muck around).
Note, SDD is fixes both systems quite well. Before upgrading memory, always upgrade to SDD, if for nothing else giving you 5-10X in paging/swapping speedups, let alone all the 'tmp' file manipulation (which I consider poor man's paging).
However, Once you get into virtualization and have a couple VMs running, then RAM is important (running a linux VM on either of my boxes makes them both slow)
I use 3d software that needs gpu power from nvidia card at office and at home.... so..
....I'd never think about making switch to shit pc.
thanks apple
The larger fusion drives still have 128gb SSD. It's only the cheaper machines that have the smaller drives and smaller SSD part to the fusion drives.
I don't get the rationale behind soldered RAM on a full desktop computer. Sure I get it on a portable, with all the space constraints and such, but on a 20+'' iMac?
That's just poor judgment. If by some unhappy chance someone get a faulty RAM, that quits on you just after AppleCare expires, that on itself will require full logic board replacement.
Non-user replaceable does not mean non-servicable. In the event of a RAM failure, it could still be replaced by a qualified service person. Not as convenient for the user, perhaps, but definitely repairable.
Additional Cost to repair is probably minor compared to the cost savings of soldering.
Computer leasing is very popular in business. Lease, use for 2-3 years, turn in, Repeat. You only pay for the machine you need now, no need to future proof.
Great argument except your advice to pay the extra $200 for the upgrade runs counter to everything you just laid out. You clearly, and correctly made the argument that many people just don't need that upgrade.
Soldered RAM. Non upgradable, 5400 drives. No upgrade to Thunderbolt 3 or USB 3.1.
Who asked for this?
Seriously, who's the target customer for the 21" iMac?
Seriously, get out and meet people in the real world sometime. People other than the tech enthusiasts who dominate the discussions on forums like this. Teachers, accountants, doctors/nurses, lawyers, etc. People who treat a computer like a car or an appliance: you buy it to serve some purpose, you don't know and don't really care how it works, if something goes wrong you take it in to be serviced, and when it can no longer serve your needs you buy a new one.
I'm sure if you talked to a car enthusiast, they'd tell you how you can get a cheap car and replace a few parts to make it into a race car, but are you willing to spend the effort to do that? Now replace car with computer and you get the idea.
I'm sorry Apple should not be selling any Macs with 5400 rpm drives in 2015. That's just plain embarrassing. It seems like Schiller is obsessed with making the entry level product something only somebody who didn't know any better would actually purchase. I get the whole range of products and people have different needs etc. but it should still be about making the best product for each price point, not how can I endure you spend more money,