Apple loses Mac engineering chief, former Mercedes R&D exec Johann Jungwirth to Volkswagen

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 87
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 1,075member

    The guy looks very German (based on living there myself on the economy twice, for a total of 3.5 years).

     

    As has been mentioned, I suspect had already had this negotiated before the VW news broke.

     

     

    Owning 2 of the affected TDI cars, VW needs to pony up to make good on the extreme loss of value.  I've taken them in to get trade estimates and it is already a few thousand less than it would have been without the scandal.     I really like my cars but the fear is the MPG and performance will go kaputt once they try and retrofit emissions systems into the car to "meet" the standards, so I'd have to trade for a gasser or a hybrid.   My local dealer has a Jetta Hybrid sitting there that has been sitting there forever and I'd trade for it if they could make the right deal, but I am not going to trade after taking the first 2 years in depreciation, which is always the biggest loss anyway, plus the additional loss due to the scandal.  It would be stupid.

     

    Their "Goodwill" package is a joke, though if there are no strings attached, you'd be a fool not to take it.

  • Reply 22 of 87
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chadbag View Post

     



    No, the MPG ratings were not artificially boosted by the cheating.   They (the ratings) are set in different tests.  The actual MPG is higher with the "cheats" enabled, as is the performance, to the detriment of emissions.

     

    The new mitigation procedures that are expected to have to be installed will lower actual MPG (may not affect rated MPG as that is done and determined separately from emissions testing) and lower performance.




    That isn't what I have read and furthermore it doesn't make sense.  In a diesel MPG and performance are nearly diametrically apposed results. You inject more fuel for a higher stoichiometric ratio for performance but this has a absolutely negative effect on (fuel) efficiency and therefore MPG. You can Juggle to get somewhat better MPG and lower emissions by lowering the stoichiometric ratio. (particularly in a turbo diesel) but performance and MPG are opposites, you compromise between the two, you can't optimize both.

  • Reply 23 of 87
    mr. memr. me Posts: 3,219member
    chadbag wrote: »

    This is a different set of tests and is not in the car programming itself.  In Europe, they have to report the CO2 emissions of the car as well as the equivalent of MPG (fuel usage of x liters/100km) and that those tests were manipulated by using cars with over inflated tires (very significantly overinflated), diesel fuel added to the motor oil to reduce viscosity (internal friction) which reduces engine load and fuel usage, etc.  The tests were manipulated but not through the use of defeat devices or other in-car engineered issues.  It means that the figures reported to the government (and hence to the customer through advertising) for CO2 emissions and fuel usage are suspect.

    This is totally separate from the TDI "scandal" and the "defeat devices" programmed into the cars.

    I don't know that we have a substantive disagreement here. The important thing is not the method that Volkswagen used to cheat. The important thing is that Volkswagen cheated. The important thing about cheating on the gasoline test is that it shows that cheating at Volkswagen is not a one-off. It leads one to believe that cheating is part of the Volkswagen culture. If the company cheats on diesel and gasoline tests, then one would have to be careful that it would also cheat on tests of battery-powered cars, fuel cell powered cars, and even hamster-powered cars.

    The customer will have to ask: "Do I want to buy a vehicle from a company that I know is dishonest?" The prospective employee and the current employee alike will ask: "Do I want to work for company that I know is dishonest?" Some people are OK with dishonesty, but others care about their own reputations that the reputations of those with whom they do business.
  • Reply 24 of 87
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 1,075member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by IndyFX View Post

     



    That isn't what I have read and furthermore it doesn't make sense.  In a diesel MPG and performance are nearly diametrically apposed results. You inject more fuel for a higher stoichiometric ratio for performance but this has a absolutely negative effect on (adiabatic) efficiency and to an even greater extent MPG. You can Juggle to get somewhat better MPG and lower emissions by lowering the stoichiometric ratio. (particularly in a turbo diesel) but performance and MPG are opposites, you compromise between the two, you can't optimize both.




    Go read the TDI forums.  They can explain it.  One of the ways of lowering emissions is to have some sort of filter or something and they have to inject extra fuel into it to burn off residue, or something.  And this increases fuel use.

     

    The fear is that the actual MPG will go down, as will performance.   This is explained by SME in the TDI forums.

     

    And the MPG ratings were not boosted by the cheats.   The MPG ratings are taken with different tests where the cheats were not activated or something (again, explained in the TDI forums).  The actual MPG achieved is boosted when the cheat is in place, which disengages or severely limits the effect of the emissions system.  With the emissions system running fully, actual MPG goes down.

  • Reply 25 of 87
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by chadbag View Post

     

    The guy looks very German (based on living there myself on the economy twice, for a total of 3.5 years).

     

    As has been mentioned, I suspect had already had this negotiated before the VW news broke.

     

     

    Owning 2 of the affected TDI cars, VW needs to pony up to make good on the extreme loss of value.  I've taken them in to get trade estimates and it is already a few thousand less than it would have been without the scandal.     I really like my cars but the fear is the MPG and performance will go kaputt once they try and retrofit emissions systems into the car to "meet" the standards, so I'd have to trade for a gasser or a hybrid.   My local dealer has a Jetta Hybrid sitting there that has been sitting there forever and I'd trade for it if they could make the right deal, but I am not going to trade after taking the first 2 years in depreciation, which is always the biggest loss anyway, plus the additional loss due to the scandal.  It would be stupid.

     

    Their "Goodwill" package is a joke, though if there are no strings attached, you'd be a fool not to take it.




    Talk to an audi 5000 owner... those cars lost half (or more) of their value in 6 months. (and never came back)

  • Reply 26 of 87
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 1,075member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mr. Me View Post





    I don't know that we have a substantive disagreement here. The important thing is not the method that Volkswagen used to cheat. The important thing is that Volkswagen cheated. The important thing about cheating on the gasoline test is that it shows that cheating at Volkswagen is not a one-off. It leads one to believe that cheating is part of the Volkswagen culture. If the company cheats on diesel and gasoline tests, then one would have to be careful that it would also cheat on tests of battery-powered cars, fuel cell powered cars, and even hamster-powered cars.



    The customer will have to ask: "Do I want to buy a vehicle from a company that I know is dishonest?" The prospective employee and the current employee alike will ask: "Do I want to work for company that I know is dishonest?" Some people are OK with dishonesty, but others care about their own reputations that the reputations of those with whom they do business.



    I suspect most car companies "cheat" when generating data for MPG etc. by running extra firm tires, removing all excess equipment (weight), etc.  

     

    None of the car companies are to be trusted.

     

    But my point was that the "gasoline" car cheats were/are something totally different.   So that someone does not misread what you wrote and think that their gasoline VW has "cheat" software or anything like that installed in it.

  • Reply 27 of 87

    There are urea injection systems to "afterburn" residual hydrocarbons (after combustion) this does not contribute to performance nor efficiency (only emissions) as it happens after the power stroke, but this waste heat can be (somewhat) recovered and utilized in turbodiesel (by contributing to driving the turbo)

     

    However that;s not the point, you said  

    "The actual MPG is higher with the "cheats" enabled, as is the performance, to the detriment of emissions."

    That is just nonsense. The MPG is up, but performance (with the cheat engaged) is down the drain.

  • Reply 28 of 87
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 1,075member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by IndyFX View Post

     



    Talk to an audi 5000 owner... those cars lost half (or more) of their value in 6 months. (and never came back)


     

    Of course, that was not Audi's fault.  Audi did not cheat and independent investigations showed that was driver error based.   It did affect the Audi 5000 owners but was not Audi's fault.

  • Reply 29 of 87
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 1,075member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by IndyFX View Post

     

    There are urea injection systems to "afterburn" residual hydrocarbons (after combustion) this does not contribute to performance nor efficiency (only emissions) as it happens after the power stroke, but this waste heat can be (somewhat) recovered and utilized in turbodesils

     

    However that;s not the point, you said  

    "The actual MPG is higher with the "cheats" enabled, as is the performance, to the detriment of emissions."

    That is just nonsense. The MPG is up, but performance (with the cheat engaged) is down the drain.




    There are also systems that inject fuel into the system as part of emissions.

     

    And the MPG AND the performance is up with the cheat engaged.  That is a fact.    If there were no emissions systems involved, then your perfect system of performance vs MPG would be true, but the emissions control systems affect how the system works so that the cheats being on improve MPG and improve performance.

     

    Again, go read the TDI forums.  Specifically on tdiclub.com  .  There are engineers and mechanics there who have explained exactly how it all works and how the emissions systems affect the total car system including MPG and performance.

     

    ETA:  everyone who owns the TDIs loves them as they get high MPG and they have high performance.  That is the fact, jack.   The fear, grounded upon how the emissions systems work, is that actual MPG (not rated MPG according to some), and performance will suffer.

  • Reply 30 of 87
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by chadbag View Post

     

    This is totally separate from the TDI "scandal" and the "defeat devices" programmed into the cars.


     

    True, but it's still a pattern of behavior, and a company I personally would not want to be signing on with.

  • Reply 31 of 87
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 1,075member

    I think another issue is that the engines are performant, but you don't continually drive the car in "performance" mode.    Most of the time you are driving the car in normal driving mode, which is high MPG.  When you need it the car can be driven with high performance.  Of course, at that time, the instantaneous MPG does go down.  But since that sort of driving tends to be in short stints, and not continuous, your overall MPG rating for average driving is high.

  • Reply 32 of 87
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 1,075member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

     

     

    True, but it's still a pattern of behavior, and a company I personally would not want to be signing on with.




    That is certainly your choice.

     

    I think all the car companies do it to a certain extent, so they are all even when it comes to integrity, which is "low."

     

    But the Audi/VW/Porsche are actually more fun to drive than most.  I drive my parents Hondas and they are boring.   I drove a Hyundai rental (Sonata) and it was boring, and uncomfortable and not ergonomic.  I've had a few other brands of rental cars in the past few years and they are all uninspiring.

     

    I drive my VW and I don't feel that way.     They have a certain "feel" to them which I prefer.

  • Reply 33 of 87

    I think my Porsche Cayenne Twin Turbo actually gets 13.5 MPG and not 14!

    Can I sue VW?

    ;)

  • Reply 34 of 87
    indyfx wrote: »

    Not correct, you need to do some research, the "stealth programming" VW engineered would recognize the EPA test cycle and then go in to a hyper economy mode (at the huge detriment of performance) this made it look like (on the EPA cycle) the the car was much more economical than it actually was. This "cheating" (by recognizing that it's on the EPA cycle and adjusting parameters) is specifically forbidden (obviously)
    This "programming" will never be active under normal driving circumstances so no repairs or re-flash of programming is really necessary. (elimination the "special programming" used to cheat the EPA tests, would do nothing during normal driving)

    VW cheated and intentionally mislead their customers. They fabricated that  their cars (diesels specifically) were actually much more economical than they actually are. I'm sorry it wasn't a mistake or an oversight, it was a hack specifically engineered to give false reading on the EPA test cycle (and nowhere else) and therefore false MPG specs to their customers. That my friend is reprehensible and shows a distinct lack of respect to your customers (just like samsung when they did it to rig benchmarks with their phones so they "appeared" faster than they actually were)

    Kind of like overclocking your CPU when a known benchmark is detected. Oh, if only VW had Samsung's fan apologetics.
  • Reply 35 of 87
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post



    Very strange timing. Someone's got to be really weird -- or was pushed -- to jump ship into a company that seriously runs the risk of having to declare bankruptcy in the next year or two.



    I highly doubt VW will go bankrupt. Since a sizeable chunk of VW is owned by the state of Niedersachsen and the unions, it is more likely that the German taxpayer will jump in to save the company.

  • Reply 36 of 87
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mike1 View Post

     

    There are so many reasons people make moves like this, both professional and/or personal, that speculating is pointless and just silly.




    This ^

  • Reply 37 of 87
    I apparently spoke too soon. ;)
  • Reply 38 of 87
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton View Post





    Kind of like overclocking your CPU when a known benchmark is detected. Oh, if only VW had Samsung's fan apologetics.



    True,

    chadbag seems to be a blinders on cheerleader, so I guess VW/Audi have a few similarly apologetic fans.

  • Reply 39 of 87
    chadbagchadbag Posts: 1,075member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by IndyFX View Post

     



    True,

    chadbag seems to be a blinders on cheerleader, so I guess VW/Audi have a few similarly apologetic fans.




    ?   I am not condoning anything they have done.   And I think that they deserve whatever punishments they get.

     

    I do think that most all car companies figure out "advantageous ways" to run their tests (using extra thin oil, overinflated tires, etc.) and all are probably guilty of similar things (not speaking of the "defeat devices" but the "new revelations" of the CO2  and fuel usage numbers in Europe).

     

    If we boycotted everybody that ran a shady deal we'd not buy anything.      Apple is not clean either. They've been caught using other peoples' IP and not wanting to pay licensing fees.

     

    And while I would never buy a Samsung phone, I do use their SSDs.   Apple uses Samsung components in the iPhone.  So I guess you are guilty of supporting the lying bastards at Samsung when you buy an iPhone.

  • Reply 40 of 87
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by chadbag View Post

     



    ?   I am not condoning anything they have done.   And I think that they deserve whatever punishments they get.

     

    I do think that most all car companies figure out "advantageous ways" to run their tests (using extra thin oil, overinflated tires, etc.) and all are probably guilty of similar things (not speaking of the "defeat devices" but the "new revelations" of the CO2  and fuel usage numbers in Europe).

     

    If we boycotted everybody that ran a shady deal we'd not buy anything.      Apple is not clean either. They've been caught using other peoples' IP and not wanting to pay licensing fees.

     

    And while I would never buy a Samsung phone, I do use their SSDs.   Apple uses Samsung components in the iPhone.  So I guess you are guilty of supporting the lying bastards at Samsung when you buy an iPhone.




    Whatever dude... just my observations.

    Yeah sure, sure; every body does it, their cars are great, we couldn't buy anything, apple is dirty, samsung is great... yada yada yada.

    I hope you are drawing a paycheck

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