MacBU's complain is that Apple hasn't been pushing OSX hard enough, not Office v.X.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If Apple had forced everyone to migrate to OS X with their last round of hardware, they'd have lost their Quark and audio app users. The fact that MS simply has to accept is that Macs do not exist to run Office. They are used in other, crucial markets, for other things, and not all of those other things are X native yet.
As it is, Apple is advertising Macs like crazy, and all Macs ship with OS X installed and set as the default OS. For 99% of (would-be) Office users, that is interchangeable with Apple shipping Macs that can only run OS X.
I think MS does need to look inward. $499 for Office? $299 for any one part of Office? Excuse me?
[quote]<strong>Apple needs to advertise Office v.X like mad</strong><hr></blockquote>
Office is Microsoft's application. They can advertise it. As it is, Apple touts it on their switch pages.
A few other notes: Nobody is friends with MS. MS wanted Apple around partly so they could point to their "competition," while keeping it small enough not to be an actual threat. Also, MS, borrowing from IBM's playbook, always lets someone else take the risks of actual innovation; then they announce something that sounds much better, wait to see if it actually takes off, and if it does then they introduce their product. This is the FUD tactic. Note that it requires smaller companies to take the actual risks - in this case, Apple is one of those. MS has been dancing this dance with Apple for years. If MS actually drove Apple under, who would they get their ideas from? Dell?
[quote]<strong>in my opinion, it's depressing how many people out there think that Macs don't have the apps in the Office suite.
The switch campaign should say this:
"You can run Office (that means: Word, Excel, Powerpoint) on the Mac, and it's prettier!"
</strong><hr></blockquote>
True. Even if the person doesn't like Office, it's immediately comforting to know that it runs on Macs, and that it can read and write Windows Office files. Once you've established that comfort level, you can start mentioning alternatives.
This happens to be what Apple is doing, although a bit more indirectly (the Switch pages mention Office:mac frequently; the ads simply tout general compatibility, because the number of people who don't think IE (or any equivalent) - or email, for that matter - is available on Macs is also depressingly high).
M$ is so full of sh!t. I hate that company so much.
First of all, Office v.X has no new features! Office 2001 was a great improvement over Office 98, so of course lots of Mac users upgraded. But 2001 will run fine in classic mode, and office v.X doesn't offer ANY new features beyond carbonization.
Most developers who have no new features beyond carbonization, post the carbon port as a FREE UPDATE! M$ has the nerve to charge insane amounts of money for nothing.
Also, as more people adopt OS X, M$ will sell more versions of Office v.X. All they have to do is wait, it's simple.
As was already noted, I've always thought that Apple is holding off on advertising for OS X because OS X isn't ready for primetime. Once all major apps are ported to OS X, I think Apple will begin to advertise heavily. But until then, it would be a mistake to convince people to update to OS X, only to find that their favorite app doesn't run in OS X.
Furthermore, OS X itself needed to grow. With Jaguar, Apple will finally have a version of OS X that is robust enough to advertise heavily. Prior to Jaguar, OS X was still undergoing major growing pains. Apple isn't stupid.
Clearly Micro$oft is full of sh!t. I don't think they really believe any of this crap, I think they are simply priming the media to think it's all Apple's fault when they pull the plug on the MBU. And that's going to hurt Apple, badly. I don't know if it will be enough to kill Apple, but their market share is going to suffer without Office. Like it or not, Office is a standard, and many Mac users depend on Office. No other app can replace Office unless it has 99% compatibility with Office document formats, which no app has accomplished to date. I doubt that's even possible without Micro$oft's cooperation.
[quote]The fact that MS simply has to accept is that Macs do not exist to run Office.<hr></blockquote>
Do you think it would be accurate to say: Macs exist because they can run Office?
[quote]As it is, Apple is advertising Macs like crazy, and all Macs ship with OS X installed and set as the default OS. For 99% of (would-be) Office users, that is interchangeable with Apple shipping Macs that can only run OS X.<hr></blockquote>
I wish that were the case, but sadly no.
We've gotten about 12 new Macs in since early June and all but 2 have gone to OS9 on them. The two that stuck with OSX before getting someone (usually me) to put OS9 on it were a result of some hardcore convincing by me.
[quote]Office is Microsoft's application. They can advertise it. As it is, Apple touts it on their switch pages.<hr></blockquote>
I think you misunderstand.
What I mean is that Apple needs to (and if it is, great, all I'm saying is that it's necessary, not that it's not happening) make sure everyone and their dog knows that Macs can run Office, because tons of people out there don't know that and it is cause for consternation and hand-wringing for those people. Dispell FUD, that's all I'm saying.
[quote]Note that it requires smaller companies to take the actual risks - in this case, Apple is one of those. MS has been dancing this dance with Apple for years. If MS actually drove Apple under, who would they get their ideas from? Dell?<hr></blockquote>
I happen to think MS and Windows would move along just fine without the MacOS.
Maybe that argument was compelling in the early 90s, but it means nothing now.
"If Apple is forced to develop it's own office suite or put a better interface on OpenOffice it makes sense for them to give it away or sell it for Windows also. Apple will have 125 retail stores and by heavily promoting OpenOffice for Windows they could do real damage to Microsoft. Imagine Apple Stores handing out free copies of OpenOffice to everyone coming in and having free in store tutorials. "
Yes. S'right. Kick 'em in the b*lls.
Addison. Agreed.
Amorph. Incisive.
Macs barely have a presence in the 'Office'. So, again. Office? Why?
Office runs on PCs. Taking it away from Mac won't kill the 'Mac' or Apple. And from the last time Apple almost went under? Well, M$ P.R cronies didn't win then. They certainly won't this time.
It may force Apple to compete and get itself a credible alternative. Which Apple is remarkly over qualified to do. They needed video editing suites? They went out and bought one. Want a foundation for an 'Office' ball breaker?
Buy one. Apple can put the ice on the cake. They're good at that.
It's a playground. Same old place. The only way you get respect is by earning some. Kick the bully in the b*ll*cks. One for each nut.
Gee, looks like they're going to have to hurt some of M$ feelings on the way to owning 10%.
Jaguar is going to hands down blow Xp out the water. Suddenly 'X' is prime time and ready to roll with the adverts on print and tv.
Office app? Go on, Apple...'stoop'.
I'd call that a testicular 'shut out'.
Apple are somewhere they haven't been in years. A position to actually compete. It IS M$ that should be worried.
1997. The only people that almost beat Apple. Themselves. Microsoft couldn't beat a boxer that was out on its feet.
2002. Apple are back. They've got guns. 'Lots of guns'.
So, when are M$ going to drop 'Office'? Maybe in a year or so?
Everyone who votes for Apple to "Kick 'em in the b*lls" say aye!
AYE!
Motion passed...
Microsoft has said time and again that they percive (read: demand) that Apple has a place in the computing world. A box. The box of being solely a "client" machine, not a server or creation machine.
Which is why they can't understand that Apple needs to keed 9 alive for a little longer.
Comments
<strong>That's not the complaint.
MacBU's complain is that Apple hasn't been pushing OSX hard enough, not Office v.X.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If Apple had forced everyone to migrate to OS X with their last round of hardware, they'd have lost their Quark and audio app users. The fact that MS simply has to accept is that Macs do not exist to run Office. They are used in other, crucial markets, for other things, and not all of those other things are X native yet.
As it is, Apple is advertising Macs like crazy, and all Macs ship with OS X installed and set as the default OS. For 99% of (would-be) Office users, that is interchangeable with Apple shipping Macs that can only run OS X.
I think MS does need to look inward. $499 for Office? $299 for any one part of Office? Excuse me?
[quote]<strong>Apple needs to advertise Office v.X like mad</strong><hr></blockquote>
Office is Microsoft's application. They can advertise it. As it is, Apple touts it on their switch pages.
A few other notes: Nobody is friends with MS. MS wanted Apple around partly so they could point to their "competition," while keeping it small enough not to be an actual threat. Also, MS, borrowing from IBM's playbook, always lets someone else take the risks of actual innovation; then they announce something that sounds much better, wait to see if it actually takes off, and if it does then they introduce their product. This is the FUD tactic. Note that it requires smaller companies to take the actual risks - in this case, Apple is one of those. MS has been dancing this dance with Apple for years. If MS actually drove Apple under, who would they get their ideas from? Dell?
[quote]<strong>in my opinion, it's depressing how many people out there think that Macs don't have the apps in the Office suite.
The switch campaign should say this:
"You can run Office (that means: Word, Excel, Powerpoint) on the Mac, and it's prettier!"
</strong><hr></blockquote>
True. Even if the person doesn't like Office, it's immediately comforting to know that it runs on Macs, and that it can read and write Windows Office files. Once you've established that comfort level, you can start mentioning alternatives.
This happens to be what Apple is doing, although a bit more indirectly (the Switch pages mention Office:mac frequently; the ads simply tout general compatibility, because the number of people who don't think IE (or any equivalent) - or email, for that matter - is available on Macs is also depressingly high).
[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
First of all, Office v.X has no new features! Office 2001 was a great improvement over Office 98, so of course lots of Mac users upgraded. But 2001 will run fine in classic mode, and office v.X doesn't offer ANY new features beyond carbonization.
Most developers who have no new features beyond carbonization, post the carbon port as a FREE UPDATE! M$ has the nerve to charge insane amounts of money for nothing.
Also, as more people adopt OS X, M$ will sell more versions of Office v.X. All they have to do is wait, it's simple.
As was already noted, I've always thought that Apple is holding off on advertising for OS X because OS X isn't ready for primetime. Once all major apps are ported to OS X, I think Apple will begin to advertise heavily. But until then, it would be a mistake to convince people to update to OS X, only to find that their favorite app doesn't run in OS X.
Furthermore, OS X itself needed to grow. With Jaguar, Apple will finally have a version of OS X that is robust enough to advertise heavily. Prior to Jaguar, OS X was still undergoing major growing pains. Apple isn't stupid.
Clearly Micro$oft is full of sh!t. I don't think they really believe any of this crap, I think they are simply priming the media to think it's all Apple's fault when they pull the plug on the MBU. And that's going to hurt Apple, badly. I don't know if it will be enough to kill Apple, but their market share is going to suffer without Office. Like it or not, Office is a standard, and many Mac users depend on Office. No other app can replace Office unless it has 99% compatibility with Office document formats, which no app has accomplished to date. I doubt that's even possible without Micro$oft's cooperation.
Do you think it would be accurate to say: Macs exist because they can run Office?
[quote]As it is, Apple is advertising Macs like crazy, and all Macs ship with OS X installed and set as the default OS. For 99% of (would-be) Office users, that is interchangeable with Apple shipping Macs that can only run OS X.<hr></blockquote>
I wish that were the case, but sadly no.
We've gotten about 12 new Macs in since early June and all but 2 have gone to OS9 on them. The two that stuck with OSX before getting someone (usually me) to put OS9 on it were a result of some hardcore convincing by me.
[quote]Office is Microsoft's application. They can advertise it. As it is, Apple touts it on their switch pages.<hr></blockquote>
I think you misunderstand.
What I mean is that Apple needs to (and if it is, great, all I'm saying is that it's necessary, not that it's not happening) make sure everyone and their dog knows that Macs can run Office, because tons of people out there don't know that and it is cause for consternation and hand-wringing for those people. Dispell FUD, that's all I'm saying.
[quote]Note that it requires smaller companies to take the actual risks - in this case, Apple is one of those. MS has been dancing this dance with Apple for years. If MS actually drove Apple under, who would they get their ideas from? Dell?<hr></blockquote>
I happen to think MS and Windows would move along just fine without the MacOS.
Maybe that argument was compelling in the early 90s, but it means nothing now.
Yes. S'right. Kick 'em in the b*lls.
Addison. Agreed.
Amorph. Incisive.
Macs barely have a presence in the 'Office'. So, again. Office? Why?
Office runs on PCs. Taking it away from Mac won't kill the 'Mac' or Apple. And from the last time Apple almost went under? Well, M$ P.R cronies didn't win then. They certainly won't this time.
It may force Apple to compete and get itself a credible alternative. Which Apple is remarkly over qualified to do. They needed video editing suites? They went out and bought one. Want a foundation for an 'Office' ball breaker?
Buy one. Apple can put the ice on the cake. They're good at that.
It's a playground. Same old place. The only way you get respect is by earning some. Kick the bully in the b*ll*cks. One for each nut.
Gee, looks like they're going to have to hurt some of M$ feelings on the way to owning 10%.
Jaguar is going to hands down blow Xp out the water. Suddenly 'X' is prime time and ready to roll with the adverts on print and tv.
Office app? Go on, Apple...'stoop'.
I'd call that a testicular 'shut out'.
Apple are somewhere they haven't been in years. A position to actually compete. It IS M$ that should be worried.
1997. The only people that almost beat Apple. Themselves. Microsoft couldn't beat a boxer that was out on its feet.
2002. Apple are back. They've got guns. 'Lots of guns'.
So, when are M$ going to drop 'Office'? Maybe in a year or so?
I don't care. I'm REALLY scared...
Lemon Bon Bon
[ 07-16-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
AYE!
Motion passed...
Microsoft has said time and again that they percive (read: demand) that Apple has a place in the computing world. A box. The box of being solely a "client" machine, not a server or creation machine.
Which is why they can't understand that Apple needs to keed 9 alive for a little longer.
Barto
MacBU or not Microsoft needs Apple around. Nobody wants a monopoly, especially not Microsoft; nevermind the free R&D Apple provides.
$10 says it was all for Microsoft employee moral.