I'm unclear what benefits the Lightning connector has over USB-C. As for a digital format, I suggest MQA. MQA goes all the way back to the mastering stage, so it's a bit more than just taking a CD and resampling it to a different format. If Apple went to a hi-res format, I'd be very likely to subscribe. I have a pretty decent home sound system, and I would invest in some true high quality headphones or earbuds for in the office. The free streaming services meet my needs for background-noise level of listening, but I know I'm not getting good fidelity.
USB anything is just a subset of the Lightning connector. The Lightning connector doesn't more, which is why it has more connections than USB-C.
According to some recent testing,the iPhone has better sound than anything other than a couple of much more expensive players. The Galaxy is behind. If anything, Android isn't very good for audio, either as a playback model, or particularly for recording or measuring audio.
This is rubbish. The 3.5 mm analogue output of the MacBooks is perfectly capable of delivering 24-bit 96 kHz audio, and has been for at least half a decade.
There is nothing inherent to the 3.5 mm analogue jack itself that limits audio quality.
Apple may not support higher sample rates than 44.1 kHz at the moment, but the chips they've used since the iPhone 6 at least very likely do. Apple just choose not to support higher sample rates (not sure about whether they do 24 bits, but that really only affects the noise floor, so it's not really relevant except in controlled environments, where the iPhone isn't going to be used).
Really, the only thing Apple needs to do is to add Apple Lossless files to the iTunes Store — in 24-bit resolution if they wish. But going higher-resolution than lossless 24-bit/44.1kHz is complete nonsense.
I completely agree with the above poster. There is no good reason to use anything higher than 44.1/48 16bit for distribution of audio. The only possible business reason would be to cater to delusional audiophiles. Recording at 24bit is a good thing though since that allows more security headroom to ensure the signal does not clip.
So yes, Apple Lossless would be great, and after that, a much more interesting use of additional bandwidth (in my opinion) would be more channels for surround audio. Probably won't happen though since Apple Music's primary listener wears headphones and multichannel surround isn't very suited for that.
You are delusional yourself if you think that. Years ago, John Eargle, a very well known recording engineer, and someone I used to know (He passed away a few years ago), did some extensive testing of digital rates, from 14/32 to 24/96, which was the highest rate in use for home audio at the time. The people working with him in testing and listening were some were well known, and experienced, record producers, engineers and musicians.
The results that came out of that were that using very high quality equipment, differences were easily heard up to 18/48, with experienced listeners. Some differences could be heard up to 20/88.5, but no differences beyond that could be heard.
Having been part of more than a few of these tests, and having devised, and run my own, I can agree with that. A problem we have is that there is nothing between 16/44.1 and 24/88.5 to test, under ordinary conditions. John was able to use professional mastering equipment to set whatever rates he wanted to.
So when we listen to 16/44.1, usually, all we can compare it to is 24/88.5 and higher. The problem with this is that there are differences in what we can hear between those rates. But because there is nothing to produce those in between rates, any improvement made is attributed to the full amount of the rate that is available.
Another problem is the age of the listener, and what damage they've done to their ears. I'm 66, and I can hear fairly, or pretty well, to 13.5KHz. It starts to tail off around 10K, and is down about 4-6db at 13.5, upon which it drops off a cliff. No major anomalies in between that and about 20Hz, where it's normal for major bass hearing to go away.
If You're 20, and have normal hearing, you may hear to 22KHz. If you're 16, you may hear to 24Khz.
Bits is something else. 16 bits is about 96 of dynamic range, and 24 bits is 144. While good quality modern equipment has no problem reproducing 90-94 db noise and dynamic range, 96 db is still difficult, thought there is equipment that can go that high. 105 db is about the highest you're going to see except for some power amps, which can reach 120. But those dynamic range numbers are from no signal to full output, which you should never see, unless your power amps are too small, and they clip. So, normally, the real dynamic range you get is a good 10db less.
So what we're talking about is noise floor. If you turn the volume all the way up with no signal, that's the noise floor of the preamp section Plus the power amp section. Good equipment will have very little, or no noise audible under those conditions. If the volume control is all the way down, that's the noise floor of the power amp alone, and the same applies. As we know, we'll be somewhere in the middle, most of the time.
The point to all of this is that no analog system can possibly reproduce 24 bits. Essentially, 20 bits is the most that can ever be hoped for. I don't mind 24 bits as a cushion. The same is true of 88.5. There are technical reasons why that's better than lower sampling rates in playback, having to do with the digital cutoff filters used, but certainly not because we can hear to 40KHz, or 30KHz.
The reason why 16/44.1 was chosen in the first place was because the technology in the early 1980's was just barely able to accommodate that in a home reproduction system at some measure of reasonable cost and size. The first CD players cost $1,000 in 1983 dollars, and that was a lot for something that was hoped to replace the Lp. Remember that there were no blue lasers at the time, or even short wave red lasers used for SACD and DVD.
We need to understand that 16 bit DACs were very expensive back then, and not very good. When you have a 16 bit DAC, you have the problem that the least significant bit is a variable. In other words, in a good DAC, you have a true 15 bits, and a last bit that is almost random. When they moved to 18 bit DACs some years later, because of that problem, that problem went away. But they skipped the in between when producers of DACs went the next step, and jumped directly to 24 bits. There are very few 20 and 22 bit DACs around, and they haven't been intended for consumer audio uses. So that's why we have 16 bit, and 24 bit audio. And 24 bit audio still has that least significant bit issue, but it doesn't matter.
I think that the arguments these days are moot. With wideband and and large storage available, high Rez audio has little in the way of negatives to it, and only positives, even if they may be small, and only available to those with the best equipment, and the interest to care. Everyone else isn't required to buy high Rez, so they shouldn't care.
According to some recent testing,the iPhone has better sound than anything other than a couple of much more expensive players. The Galaxy is behind. If anything, Android isn't very good for audio, either as a playback model, or particularly for recording or measuring audio.
I'm trying to remember where I saw it. I believe that it was testing done in Audio Express. I'm not sure if I can pluck that out, as it's a magazine, and I dropped my digital subscription, and only have the paper copy. It's the November issue. That issue also deals with audio testing in iOS, and why Android isn't used for serious audio work.
The current headphone jack includes optical out (Toslink) and is indeed capable of 24bit 96kHz - has been for years. Apple on-board/core audio has supported 24bit/96kHz for years as well. The only piece of the streaming puzzle missing is for Apple to bump the 16/44 DAC in the Airport Express to 24/96. I sent an email to Steve Jobs about this long ago - oddly, he never replied.
The current headphone jack includes optical out (Toslink) and is indeed capable of 24bit 96kHz - has been for years. Apple on-board/core audio has supported 24bit/96kHz for years as well. The only piece of the streaming puzzle missing is for Apple to bump the 16/44 DAC in the Airport Express to 24/96. I sent an email to Steve Jobs about this long ago - oddly, he never replied.
Ah but the headphone jack doesn't bypass the internal digital to analogue conversion regardless of Toslink or headphone. The iOS devices' DAC is not very good compared to the best DACs or even a good one which when paired to a good headphone amp or good desktop system DAC and amp makes the device a high end pure digital audio transport. That's the advantage of the Lightning connector out as I outlined above. Several android models use a usb hardware output to achieve the same goals (bypass the internal DAC etc
The current headphone jack includes optical out (Toslink) and is indeed capable of 24bit 96kHz - has been for years. Apple on-board/core audio has supported 24bit/96kHz for years as well. The only piece of the streaming puzzle missing is for Apple to bump the 16/44 DAC in the Airport Express to 24/96. I sent an email to Steve Jobs about this long ago - oddly, he never replied.
Ah but the headphone jack doesn't bypass the internal digital to analogue conversion regardless of Toslink or headphone. The iOS devices' DAC is not very good compared to the best DACs or even a good one which when paired to a good headphone amp or good desktop system DAC and amp makes the device a high end pure digital audio transport. That's the advantage of the Lightning connector out as I outlined above. Several android models use a usb hardware output to achieve the same goals (bypass the internal DAC etc
The internal DAC is EXCELLENT, even compared to the high-end professional DACs on the market. Read the link I posted above to the Ken Rockwell site.
There is no significant advantage to be gained from external DAC.
Most people can't hear the difference anyway, but that's not the real problem with eliminating the headphone jack.
1. There are many accessories beyond headphones which use the headphone jack and eliminating would render them all useless...not exactly kosher in my book.
2. If Apple doesn't create a way to charge the iPhone and presumably the iPad, simultaneously with using the Lightning Connector, that does a tremendous disservice to those who use their iDevice all day, and/or travel.
3. Elimination of the headphone jack is particularly problematic for travelers as if Apple doesn't create a way to charge the iPhone and presumably the iPad, simultaneously with using the Lightning Connector, that would preclude travelers on airplanes, for example, from using their iDevice for hours at a time on long flights. I've been on many flights during which my iPhone and/or iPad would have gone dead if I wasn't able to charge it while using it. In cars, trains and buses you could use a Bluetooth headset, but not on planes where the FAA forbids its use, and does its EU counterpart EASA.
Even if Apple created a dongle to permit iDevice charging and use of the Lightning Connector simultaneously, it's an awful solution as it forces you to bring something else, and it's more to break and loose. It eliminates the simplicity and ease of use we have today. A better solution would be dual Lighting Connectors, or frankly just leave the jack alone for those who want it, and don't want to purchase more expensive gear for their iDevice. And don't tell me about wireless charging. It's not really wireless (you've got to plug it into the wall) and it's just another device to carry. Just needing a wire is better than that, at this point in time.
Good gawd, finally! Now all that is needed is a new range of 500GB or 1000GB SSD iPod Classics with quality audio IC's. With these sampling frequencies and bit rates, audio reproduction is getting closer to analogue quality without the clicking and popping.
I hope they also offer higher res files for download too, not just streaming. Be nice if I could have the option to upgrade all the music I've purchased from iTunes.
Very, very little back catalogue analogue 1st generation master recordings are now left since most of the record companies transferred over to digital under heavy pressure and sponsorship from Phillips and Sony using the early 16bit 44Khz Red-Book standard. Those recordings are lost forever. Most of Decca's catalogue was destroyed. A conversation I had with a head honcho from Decca UK back in the 80's, clearly pointed to the fact Digital would allow them to re-release their back catalogue on a new and far more profitable format. He didn't care one jot for the valuable history captured on those wonderful early Decca tapes and pressings. One of the most depressing conversations I ever held when I worked in the music industry.
Ah but the headphone jack doesn't bypass the internal digital to analogue conversion regardless of Toslink or headphone. The iOS devices' DAC is not very good compared to the best DACs or even a good one which when paired to a good headphone amp or good desktop system DAC and amp makes the device a high end pure digital audio transport. That's the advantage of the Lightning connector out as I outlined above. Several android models use a usb hardware output to achieve the same goals (bypass the internal DAC etc
The internal DAC is EXCELLENT, even compared to the high-end professional DACs on the market. Read the link I posted above to the Ken Rockwell site.
There is no significant advantage to be gained from external DAC.
It's pretty safe to say in audiophile circles (and I am a very casual member of that crowd, I suppose) there will be people who agree with you that those DACs are great and others who insist they know better. If there is one constant in that crowd it the tendency to divide into various tribes with very strong beliefs. The only way to satisfy them all is to offer choice. The advantage (rebutting your claim that there is none) is to get all the thought leaders in the audiophile world on-board by offering the capability to add their preferred DAC. The way to evangelize High Res audio on the Apple platform is to win over these thought leaders.
I have an uncle who is down on digital music because he has spent a small fortune on audio gear and is convinced no Mac, Sonos or iOS device is capable of supplying input worthy of his sound system. Even Apple Lossless over optical. Once the blogs he reads start saying nice things about the latest Lightning DACs that could make his iPhone a 'real' audio source, he'll happily buy one and subscribe to Apple's High Res streaming service. At least, that's what I imagine he would do. He's too busy reading audio blogs to bother himself here on AppleInsider and chime in himself
As long as there is still a 3.5mm jack on iOS devices, you will clearly be happy. So will I. Though I am all for fewer and smaller holes and cavities in the iPhone chassis.
For everyone else there is Bluetooth. And that includes me when I'm walking my dog or working out.
all day breakfast said: Ah but the headphone jack doesn't bypass the internal digital to analogue conversion regardless of Toslink or headphone.
Toslink is a digital output. Are you suggesting audio goes from digital through the DAC and is redigitized? I think you are wrong.
I dont believe that the headphone out is TOSLINK on iOS devices. They are on the Mac. Can you site evidenced or this? I found nothing.
The only way to get pure digital out of an iOS device since iOS7 is through the Lightning connector to a USB input and not through the headphone connector. Do the research.
btw the only way earlier than iOS7 to get pure digital out of an iOS device was through purchase of a special MFI licence from Apple and with that license it was possible to get pure digital audio out through the 30 pin connector.
The current headphone jack includes optical out (Toslink) and is indeed capable of 24bit 96kHz - has been for years. Apple on-board/core audio has supported 24bit/96kHz for years as well. The only piece of the streaming puzzle missing is for Apple to bump the 16/44 DAC in the Airport Express to 24/96. I sent an email to Steve Jobs about this long ago - oddly he never replied.
The current headphone jack includes optical out (Toslink) and is indeed capable of 24bit 96kHz - has been for years. Apple on-board/core audio has supported 24bit/96kHz for years as well. The only piece of the streaming puzzle missing is for Apple to bump the 16/44 DAC in the Airport Express to 24/96. I sent an email to Steve Jobs about this long ago - oddly he never replied.
No headphone jack on any iOS device has ever included optical out.
Ah but the headphone jack doesn't bypass the internal digital to analogue conversion regardless of Toslink or headphone. The iOS devices' DAC is not very good compared to the best DACs or even a good one which when paired to a good headphone amp or good desktop system DAC and amp makes the device a high end pure digital audio transport. That's the advantage of the Lightning connector out as I outlined above. Several android models use a usb hardware output to achieve the same goals (bypass the internal DAC etc
The internal DAC is EXCELLENT, even compared to the high-end professional DACs on the market. Read the link I posted above to the Ken Rockwell site.
There is no significant advantage to be gained from external DAC.
It has long been my suspicion that modern D/A converters that are well implemented, are indistinguishable from each other through listening. This might be an interesting development if it pans out..
Ah but the headphone jack doesn't bypass the internal digital to analogue conversion regardless of Toslink or headphone. The iOS devices' DAC is not very good compared to the best DACs or even a good one which when paired to a good headphone amp or good desktop system DAC and amp makes the device a high end pure digital audio transport. That's the advantage of the Lightning connector out as I outlined above. Several android models use a usb hardware output to achieve the same goals (bypass the internal DAC etc
The internal DAC is EXCELLENT, even compared to the high-end professional DACs on the market. Read the link I posted above to the Ken Rockwell site.
There is no significant advantage to be gained from external DAC.
It has long been my suspicion that modern D/A converters that are well implemented, are indistinguishable from each other through listening. This might be an interesting development if it pans out..
Ah but the headphone jack doesn't bypass the internal digital to analogue conversion regardless of Toslink or headphone. The iOS devices' DAC is not very good compared to the best DACs or even a good one which when paired to a good headphone amp or good desktop system DAC and amp makes the device a high end pure digital audio transport. That's the advantage of the Lightning connector out as I outlined above. Several android models use a usb hardware output to achieve the same goals (bypass the internal DAC etc
The internal DAC is EXCELLENT, even compared to the high-end professional DACs on the market. Read the link I posted above to the Ken Rockwell site.
There is no significant advantage to be gained from external DAC.
r years. Apple on-board/core audio has supported 24bit/96kHz for years as well. The only piece of the streaming puzzle missing is for Apple to bump the 16/44 DAC in the Airport Express to 24/96. I sent an email to Steve Jobs about this long ago - oddly, he never replied.
Ah but the headphone jack doesn't bypass the internal digital to analogue conversion regardless of Toslink or headphone. The iOS devices' DAC is not very good compared to the best DACs or even a good one which when paired to a good headphone amp or good desktop system DAC and amp makes the device a high end pure digital audio transport. That's the advantage of the Lightning connector out as I outlined above. Several android models use a usb hardware output to achieve the same goals (bypass the internal DAC etc
Ken Rockwell? Sorry, I'm stunned. I'm writing from personal experience. Good luck to you.
Ah but the headphone jack doesn't bypass the internal digital to analogue conversion regardless of Toslink or headphone. The iOS devices' DAC is not very good compared to the best DACs or even a good one which when paired to a good headphone amp or good desktop system DAC and amp makes the device a high end pure digital audio transport. That's the advantage of the Lightning connector out as I outlined above. Several android models use a usb hardware output to achieve the same goals (bypass the internal DAC etc
The internal DAC is EXCELLENT, even compared to the high-end professional DACs on the market. Read the link I posted above to the Ken Rockwell site.
There is no significant advantage to be gained from external DAC.
r years. Apple on-board/core audio has supported 24bit/96kHz for years as well. The only piece of the streaming puzzle missing is for Apple to bump the 16/44 DAC in the Airport Express to 24/96. I sent an email to Steve Jobs about this long ago - oddly, he never replied.
Ah but the headphone jack doesn't bypass the internal digital to analogue conversion regardless of Toslink or headphone. The iOS devices' DAC is not very good compared to the best DACs or even a good one which when paired to a good headphone amp or good desktop system DAC and amp makes the device a high end pure digital audio transport. That's the advantage of the Lightning connector out as I outlined above. Several android models use a usb hardware output to achieve the same goals (bypass the internal DAC etc
Ken Rockwell? Sorry, I'm stunned. I'm writing from personal experience. Good luck to you.
Ah but the headphone jack doesn't bypass the internal digital to analogue conversion regardless of Toslink or headphone. The iOS devices' DAC is not very good compared to the best DACs or even a good one which when paired to a good headphone amp or good desktop system DAC and amp makes the device a high end pure digital audio transport. That's the advantage of the Lightning connector out as I outlined above. Several android models use a usb hardware output to achieve the same goals (bypass the internal DAC etc
The internal DAC is EXCELLENT, even compared to the high-end professional DACs on the market. Read the link I posted above to the Ken Rockwell site.
There is no significant advantage to be gained from external DAC.
Comments
The results that came out of that were that using very high quality equipment, differences were easily heard up to 18/48, with experienced listeners. Some differences could be heard up to 20/88.5, but no differences beyond that could be heard.
Having been part of more than a few of these tests, and having devised, and run my own, I can agree with that. A problem we have is that there is nothing between 16/44.1 and 24/88.5 to test, under ordinary conditions. John was able to use professional mastering equipment to set whatever rates he wanted to.
So when we listen to 16/44.1, usually, all we can compare it to is 24/88.5 and higher. The problem with this is that there are differences in what we can hear between those rates. But because there is nothing to produce those in between rates, any improvement made is attributed to the full amount of the rate that is available.
Another problem is the age of the listener, and what damage they've done to their ears. I'm 66, and I can hear fairly, or pretty well, to 13.5KHz. It starts to tail off around 10K, and is down about 4-6db at 13.5, upon which it drops off a cliff. No major anomalies in between that and about 20Hz, where it's normal for major bass hearing to go away.
If You're 20, and have normal hearing, you may hear to 22KHz. If you're 16, you may hear to 24Khz.
Bits is something else. 16 bits is about 96 of dynamic range, and 24 bits is 144. While good quality modern equipment has no problem reproducing 90-94 db noise and dynamic range, 96 db is still difficult, thought there is equipment that can go that high. 105 db is about the highest you're going to see except for some power amps, which can reach 120. But those dynamic range numbers are from no signal to full output, which you should never see, unless your power amps are too small, and they clip. So, normally, the real dynamic range you get is a good 10db less.
So what we're talking about is noise floor. If you turn the volume all the way up with no signal, that's the noise floor of the preamp section Plus the power amp section. Good equipment will have very little, or no noise audible under those conditions. If the volume control is all the way down, that's the noise floor of the power amp alone, and the same applies. As we know, we'll be somewhere in the middle, most of the time.
The point to all of this is that no analog system can possibly reproduce 24 bits. Essentially, 20 bits is the most that can ever be hoped for. I don't mind 24 bits as a cushion. The same is true of 88.5. There are technical reasons why that's better than lower sampling rates in playback, having to do with the digital cutoff filters used, but certainly not because we can hear to 40KHz, or 30KHz.
The reason why 16/44.1 was chosen in the first place was because the technology in the early 1980's was just barely able to accommodate that in a home reproduction system at some measure of reasonable cost and size. The first CD players cost $1,000 in 1983 dollars, and that was a lot for something that was hoped to replace the Lp. Remember that there were no blue lasers at the time, or even short wave red lasers used for SACD and DVD.
We need to understand that 16 bit DACs were very expensive back then, and not very good. When you have a 16 bit DAC, you have the problem that the least significant bit is a variable. In other words, in a good DAC, you have a true 15 bits, and a last bit that is almost random. When they moved to 18 bit DACs some years later, because of that problem, that problem went away. But they skipped the in between when producers of DACs went the next step, and jumped directly to 24 bits. There are very few 20 and 22 bit DACs around, and they haven't been intended for consumer audio uses. So that's why we have 16 bit, and 24 bit audio. And 24 bit audio still has that least significant bit issue, but it doesn't matter.
I think that the arguments these days are moot. With wideband and and large storage available, high Rez audio has little in the way of negatives to it, and only positives, even if they may be small, and only available to those with the best equipment, and the interest to care. Everyone else isn't required to buy high Rez, so they shouldn't care.
The internal DAC is EXCELLENT, even compared to the high-end professional DACs on the market. Read the link I posted above to the Ken Rockwell site.
There is no significant advantage to be gained from external DAC.
It's pretty safe to say in audiophile circles (and I am a very casual member of that crowd, I suppose) there will be people who agree with you that those DACs are great and others who insist they know better. If there is one constant in that crowd it the tendency to divide into various tribes with very strong beliefs. The only way to satisfy them all is to offer choice. The advantage (rebutting your claim that there is none) is to get all the thought leaders in the audiophile world on-board by offering the capability to add their preferred DAC. The way to evangelize High Res audio on the Apple platform is to win over these thought leaders.
I have an uncle who is down on digital music because he has spent a small fortune on audio gear and is convinced no Mac, Sonos or iOS device is capable of supplying input worthy of his sound system. Even Apple Lossless over optical. Once the blogs he reads start saying nice things about the latest Lightning DACs that could make his iPhone a 'real' audio source, he'll happily buy one and subscribe to Apple's High Res streaming service. At least, that's what I imagine he would do. He's too busy reading audio blogs to bother himself here on AppleInsider and chime in himself
As long as there is still a 3.5mm jack on iOS devices, you will clearly be happy. So will I. Though I am all for fewer and smaller holes and cavities in the iPhone chassis.
For everyone else there is Bluetooth. And that includes me when I'm walking my dog or working out.
I dont believe that the headphone out is TOSLINK on iOS devices. They are on the Mac. Can you site evidenced or this? I found nothing.
The only way to get pure digital out of an iOS device since iOS7 is through the Lightning connector to a USB input and not through the headphone connector. Do the research.
btw the only way earlier than iOS7 to get pure digital out of an iOS device was through purchase of a special MFI licence from Apple and with that license it was possible to get pure digital audio out through the 30 pin connector.
This thread is not about the Mac.