"Computers use a lot of fossil fuel energy." "Good PR to invest in expensive, inefficient, unreliable wind and solar." "Let's do it, even if we do have to bulldoze acres of woods."
Agreed. If we put our kids to work like that in the US, they'd get into less trouble!
Opinion Alert!!
Children who work in a family business learn work ethics, don't mug little old ladies, don't play the "knock out game", don't wind up on welfare, do contribute to society, do value work effort, are appreciated in their community, etc, etc, etc...
If I eat rice imported from Vietnam, I'm responsible for these 12-14 year-old farmers who work 10 hrs+ a day back in the countryside in Vietnam? BS.
If you know that it's farmed by 12-14 year olds, then absolutely you are responsible. To say "I didn't put it in the bag of rice. I don't hire the workers." is completely wrong. If you buy from someone with unethical practices, you directly endorse and encourage those practices.
The comparison to buying stolen goods on Craigslist is completely valid. If you see an item that is insanely cheap but you know in your heart is stolen, to purchase it makes you complicit. This is the same thing as people wearing "Bring jobs back to America" T-Shirts as they walk into Wal-Mart and choose the lowest cost made-in-China item over heading to Main street and buying local.
Manufacturers have responsibility to know from whom they are buying if they want to represent themselves as ethical. The manufacturers here argue (I'm sure fairly) that it's very difficult to track this cobalt back, especially since it was "laundered" through a other suppliers. It's certainly much easier to follow a product forward through the supply chain, as AA did.
Children who work in a family business learn work ethics, don't mug little old ladies, don't play the "knock out game", don't wind up on welfare, do contribute to society, do value work effort, are appreciated in their community, etc, etc, etc...
Look at it this way, if those kids weren't working, they and their families might starve instead. Many countries have economies and job offerings on par with Depression-era America (or even earlier). There used to be widespread child labor in the US also.
U ain't know shit there, so stfu. People living in US don't know shit about other countries' policy. Yes, I grew up there and yes I was in labor force at the age of 12. Their house, their rules... Apple can bring their business somewhere else if they can afford higher cost or back to US with 10x more labor cost + benefits and deal w lawsuits, unions...fuck that, I want affordable iPhone...you don't?
I'd gladly pay more for a phone that is fair.
What would you pay to keep a kid from dying due to a lack of income?
Children who work in a family business learn work ethics, don't mug little old ladies, don't play the "knock out game", don't wind up on welfare, do contribute to society, do value work effort, are appreciated in their community, etc, etc, etc...
Cobalt mining is probably not a cottage industry.
Correct but my comment was to the previous poster mentioning a little work for youngsters in this country. Other countries have their issues to deal with. I don't support that kind of child labor but i some parts of the world, it could be a matter of life and death to support a family. Amnesty International can just get money from their goodie goodie donors and feed those people so they don't do that sort of thing. Fixing the world is not done by foisting American values upon others.
If I eat rice imported from Vietnam, I'm responsible for these 12-14 year-old farmers who work 10 hrs+ a day back in the countryside in Vietnam? BS.
If you know that it's farmed by 12-14 year olds, then absolutely you are responsible. To say "I didn't put it in the bag of rice. I don't hire the workers." is completely wrong. If you buy from someone with unethical practices, you directly endorse and encourage those practices.
The comparison to buying stolen goods on Craigslist is completely valid. If you see an item that is insanely cheap but you know in your heart is stolen, to purchase it makes you complicit. This is the same thing as people wearing "Bring jobs back to America" T-Shirts as they walk into Wal-Mart and choose the lowest cost made-in-China item over heading to Main street and buying local.
Manufacturers have responsibility to know from whom they are buying if they want to represent themselves as ethical. The manufacturers here argue (I'm sure fairly) that it's very difficult to track this cobalt back, especially since it was "laundered" through a other suppliers. It's certainly much easier to follow a product forward through the supply chain, as AA did.
What's I am against is the headline, considering it is not even the original headline, not the gist of making sure we don''t abuse children.
Though applying our own view of childhood to people overseas is kind of presumptuous and often condescending.
Some people find kids of 15 working in factories 60h a week abhorrent, should we stop that too? Even if that means the alternative is not eating or ending up in the street. Being a pragmatist suck, but hey.... We can't even take care of kids falling through the cracks here, are we going to hold others to higher standards than our own?
The line is not as clear as some make it out to be.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't do our best; we all should up to a point. That point being that reality doesn't bend in an instant to our will.
Playing "papa" and looking haughtily and other countries is not going to get things moving. That's to often the case with many NGO organization; they have their own detractors abroad to with their high handed way of doing things making them as imperious in their ways as the countries or organizations they accuse.
Their very narrow issue driven focus also most often miss the big picture, which blunts their long term impact.
In those countries, change must come from within to make a real difference (a bit like with humans...).
Making sure the kid stopping mining doesn't go into another similarly hazardous other jobs can only done if it's even possible. Giving living wages to the parents, promoting family planning, etc. Those are a few of the real way of fixing this that actually worked elsewhere.
Anyway, In this case, it's more the fact that cobalt mining is really hazardous no matter who does it and real hard work, and especially to children, that's the core of it.
If they were working boxing toys could we really be against if there were no other options?
Correct but my comment was to the previous poster mentioning a little work for youngsters in this country. Other countries have their issues to deal with. I don't support that kind of child labor but i some parts of the world, it could be a matter of life and death to support a family. Amnesty International can just get money from their goodie goodie donors and feed those people so they don't do that sort of thing. Fixing the world is not done by foisting American values upon others.
It is not really about American values. Every parent wants their child to be well fed and have the opportunity for an education. Almost all third world countries forbid child labor of this sort and all global corporations have regulations regarding that practice. It is not an American thing, it is a humanity thing. Besides, the US already gives billions of taxpayer dollars in foreign aid to these third world nations, but the money never gets to the people who actually need the aid. Look what happened in Haiti after the earthquake. The US sent in billions in CASH, in suitcases, because there was no banking or government services in place, and that money just disappeared. Getting money from donors makes no difference whatsoever unless the NGOs actually go there and feed the people themselves.
In this case, it's more the fact that cobalt mining is really hazardous no matter who does it and real hard work, and especially to children, that's the core of it.
If they were working boxing toys could we really be against if there were no other options?
It is not about the danger as much as it is the problem of children working instead of going to school. In the long term a country would be working against its own best interest by allowing child labor because education is the only thing that can help alleviate poverty.
Instead of these headline grabber coming after a company who is actually trying to do the right thing, they should be highlighting the competitors of companies of Apple and say we should vote our wallets against them. All these idiots are doing is making people feel bad about a generally good company and letting the problem company ship by. These other companies usually benefit from the work Apple is doing, You go Apple policing Foxconn as an example, and they clean up their act, and all the other companies who use Foxconn benefits and did not have to do a thing, they waits until Apple sent their people in and media attacked Apple and the got most of benefit for no effort.
It's very noble how your first thought is about Apple's bottom line rather than the pragmatic impact of the action taken against employment condition problems. Apple are obviously the real victim of these do-gooders doing good.
Nobility doesn't come into it. If the press calls out Apple then they should call out everyone. That way it is everyone's responsibility to fix the problem, and not just one company. If Apple shifts 10% of the products using these batteries and the rest of the industry shifts the other 90% then you've scored a nice headline, but you've left most of the problem unsolved.
This kind of exploitation is an industry-wide problem (which means Apple and others – not just Apple). It should be headlined as such.
exactly, it is not Apple purchasing power that is the issue, Apple and its customer can afford to do the right things and most times Apple has been. It the other 90% of suppliers and the consumers of those products which are the issue. I worked for a company which we did everything we could to make sure we were doing the right things and it did not matter since our mark on the world was small compare to the balance of the companies doing what they like.
These groups need to let the entire purchasing public know who all the bad players are not use the company with the biggest name recognition as the whipping horse. I bet the people who put out the report all feel warm inside because they think they are making a different because the said Apple was not doing enough.
It's very noble how your first thought is about Apple's bottom line rather than the pragmatic impact of the action taken against employment condition problems. Apple are obviously the real victim of these do-gooders doing good.
Nobility doesn't come into it. If the press calls out Apple then they should call out everyone. That way it is everyone's responsibility to fix the problem, and not just one company. If Apple shifts 10% of the products using these batteries and the rest of the industry shifts the other 90% then you've scored a nice headline, but you've left most of the problem unsolved.
This kind of exploitation is an industry-wide problem (which means Apple and others – not just Apple). It should be headlined as such.
If you ask everyone to do something then no one will do anything.
Correct but my comment was to the previous poster mentioning a little work for youngsters in this country. Other countries have their issues to deal with. I don't support that kind of child labor but i some parts of the world, it could be a matter of life and death to support a family. Amnesty International can just get money from their goodie goodie donors and feed those people so they don't do that sort of thing. Fixing the world is not done by foisting American values upon others.
It is not really about American values. Every parent wants their child to be well fed and have the opportunity for an education. Almost all third world countries forbid child labor of this sort and all global corporations have regulations regarding that practice. It is not an American thing, it is a humanity thing. Besides, the US already gives billions of taxpayer dollars in foreign aid to these third world nations, but the money never gets to the people who actually need the aid. Look what happened in Haiti after the earthquake. The US sent in billions in CASH, in suitcases, because there was no banking or government services in place, and that money just disappeared. Getting money from donors makes no difference whatsoever unless the NGOs actually go there and feed the people themselves.
And I do agree with what you have said. I highlighted the key point you make...
I have some friends who work in an impoverished country to provide schooling at no charge to children so they have a chance at life once they grow up. They also take in street children and raise them. A little education goes a long way in those countries. The difference between living on the streets or getting a job that can feed a family. One small nucleus of help in a large world.
In this case, it's more the fact that cobalt mining is really hazardous no matter who does it and real hard work, and especially to children, that's the core of it.
If they were working boxing toys could we really be against if there were no other options?
It is not about the danger as much as it is the problem of children working instead of going to school. In the long term a country would be working against its own best interest by allowing child labor because education is the only thing that can help alleviate poverty.
I've got nothing against going to school a commendable goal, but again you're looking at them through your own prism. How will they live NOW; you know IN THE PRESENT. Anyone who has done humanitarian work knows the incredible frustration of getting anything done there. In the same time, we forget it's frustrating not just for us who are parachuted there, it is also for them who have to live this reality. Hypothetical, punctual action and good intentions often make us feel good, but have little real world long term effect.
People at the bottom of the Maslow pyramid are looking for food, shelter, security, etc first. Often they don't have any of these; how can education be a priority when they live 20 in room, and eat pittance! In many countries, girl don't get any education even when it's available to boys.
As a whole, for all society, education drives it forward, but many will be not be educated, they will be poor; even a rising average masks many ugly realities, as it does even in the west (just look at the US).
In many of these countries, education is not something someone who is poor can afford.
Decent public education in our province Quebec only came in the 1960s, when we were already pretty wealthy; should we expect them to do the same with a fraction of this wealth?
That's what I'm again this blinkered first world condescending vision of things. You do your best to move things forward, but while that happens people still need to live and we have to be humble in our expectations in the face of countless past failures of our grand aspirations.
Comments
"Computers use a lot of fossil fuel energy."
"Good PR to invest in expensive, inefficient, unreliable wind and solar."
"Let's do it, even if we do have to bulldoze acres of woods."
"Where can we make them cave next?" "Batteries?"
Children who work in a family business learn work ethics, don't mug little old ladies, don't play the "knock out game", don't wind up on welfare, do contribute to society, do value work effort, are appreciated in their community, etc, etc, etc...
Articles use Apple in their headline all the time even when they're just remotely involved; it's something that occurs all over the Internet.
Then you read the article and it's not what's in the headline; that's considered bad journalism, but hey seems you support that...
Appleinsider should have used the original title, which didn't have just Apple in the title.
The comparison to buying stolen goods on Craigslist is completely valid. If you see an item that is insanely cheap but you know in your heart is stolen, to purchase it makes you complicit. This is the same thing as people wearing "Bring jobs back to America" T-Shirts as they walk into Wal-Mart and choose the lowest cost made-in-China item over heading to Main street and buying local.
Manufacturers have responsibility to know from whom they are buying if they want to represent themselves as ethical. The manufacturers here argue (I'm sure fairly) that it's very difficult to track this cobalt back, especially since it was "laundered" through a other suppliers. It's certainly much easier to follow a product forward through the supply chain, as AA did.
Though applying our own view of childhood to people overseas is kind of presumptuous and often condescending.
Some people find kids of 15 working in factories 60h a week abhorrent, should we stop that too?
Even if that means the alternative is not eating or ending up in the street.
Being a pragmatist suck, but hey....
We can't even take care of kids falling through the cracks here, are we going to hold others to higher standards than our own?
The line is not as clear as some make it out to be.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't do our best; we all should up to a point. That point being that reality doesn't bend in an instant to our will.
Playing "papa" and looking haughtily and other countries is not going to get things moving.
That's to often the case with many NGO organization;
they have their own detractors abroad to with their high handed way of doing things making them as imperious in their ways as the countries or organizations they accuse.
Their very narrow issue driven focus also most often miss the big picture, which blunts their long term impact.
In those countries, change must come from within to make a real difference (a bit like with humans...).
Making sure the kid stopping mining doesn't go into another similarly hazardous other jobs can only done if it's even possible.
Giving living wages to the parents, promoting family planning, etc. Those are a few of the real way of fixing this that actually worked elsewhere.
Anyway,
In this case, it's more the fact that cobalt mining is really hazardous no matter who does it and real hard work, and especially to children, that's the core of it.
If they were working boxing toys could we really be against if there were no other options?
It is not about the danger as much as it is the problem of children working instead of going to school. In the long term a country would be working against its own best interest by allowing child labor because education is the only thing that can help alleviate poverty.
These groups need to let the entire purchasing public know who all the bad players are not use the company with the biggest name recognition as the whipping horse. I bet the people who put out the report all feel warm inside because they think they are making a different because the said Apple was not doing enough.
I have some friends who work in an impoverished country to provide schooling at no charge to children so they have a chance at life once they grow up. They also take in street children and raise them. A little education goes a long way in those countries. The difference between living on the streets or getting a job that can feed a family. One small nucleus of help in a large world.
How will they live NOW; you know IN THE PRESENT.
Anyone who has done humanitarian work knows the incredible frustration of getting anything done there.
In the same time, we forget it's frustrating not just for us who are parachuted there, it is also for them who have to live this reality.
Hypothetical, punctual action and good intentions often make us feel good, but have little real world long term effect.
People at the bottom of the Maslow pyramid are looking for food, shelter, security, etc first.
Often they don't have any of these; how can education be a priority when they live 20 in room, and eat pittance!
In many countries, girl don't get any education even when it's available to boys.
As a whole, for all society, education drives it forward, but many will be not be educated, they will be poor; even a rising average masks many ugly realities, as it does even in the west (just look at the US).
In many of these countries, education is not something someone who is poor can afford.
Decent public education in our province Quebec only came in the 1960s, when we were already pretty wealthy; should we expect them to do the same with a fraction of this wealth?
That's what I'm again this blinkered first world condescending vision of things.
You do your best to move things forward, but while that happens people still need to live and we have to be humble in our expectations in the face of countless past failures of our grand aspirations.