Mr Gatorfan was implying that since Apple just produces hardware they should not be compared to Google.
My point is Apple's services/software gross revenues is MORE than Google.
AFAIK Apple services contributed a tad over $5B revenue last quarter. Is that right? Google gross revenues last quarter was a bit over $18B. Perhaps you've mixed up some gross and net figures. In any event please don't distract yet another thread with more complaints about Apple stock price. Don't you already have enough threads going with discussions about it? Try one of those if you wish to continue. This one is about Netflix and streaming.
Apple does not report GROSS revenue's on App Store purchases.
That $5 billion is actually close to $17 billion because Apple only reports the 30% cut they get. Now add the true cost of iOS/OSX that Apple hides into sales of iPhone/Mac and Apple does over $20 billion in software/services revenue a quarter.
Ah I see, You're guessing. (BTW, Google doesn't report gross Play Store revenues either, just the same 30% cut of it that Apple so you'd still be wrong) Please use a different thread to guess in. You have a whole lot of them to choose from where you've already gone off-topic with stock complaints.
No I do understand I just don't agree with the policy, at least for recurring subscriptions. Plus one would assume that Netflix or anyone else could remove the IAP option whenever they want. Going to netflix.com and subscribing is pretty simple.
Honestly, what do you care? You're still paying $10 either way. And yes, exactly, if Netflix had an issue with it, they wouldn't allow users to sign-up via iOS apps ... It's how Amazon's services work in their iOS Apps and probably why they won't ever release an app for the AppleTV. Having such tiny profit margins does not allow you to afford any kind of customer service - they don't make enough on your subscription to make it convenient to sign up - that's the bottom line. Amazon is the Walmart of the online world.
Exactly! There are just a number on this board who view it as their reason in life to moan, bitch and whine about everything (and mostly Apple). Apple is providing an aggregation service and a store front, and thus provides a value to providers, and in this case that is about getting a customer they might not have received otherwise. It is an agreement that both sides enter into - as noted, Amazon chooses not to. If it didn't provide value to Netflix, they likely would stop as well (and maybe they will some day).
As for the big content services that stream to Apple TV, like HBO Go and Netflix, we do not know if they pay 30%, or some value much less (like 10 or 15% as is rumoured). IMO Apple should change the App Store guidelines such that recurring subscriptions take a smaller % than pure purchases (and in-app purchases), which are more one-time. This would help to grow the overall subscriptions that pass through Apple.
Ah I see, You're guessing. (BTW, Google doesn't report gross Play Store revenues either, just the same 30% cut of it that Apple so you'd still be wrong) Please use a different thread to guess in. You have a whole lot of them to choose from where you've already gone off-topic with stock complaints.
So you don't think that iOS/OSX has value?
I'd say at least 20% of an iPhone's value is in iOS. Same with Mac. And that's being ultra conservative seeing that Android phones that have similiar hardware as iPhone sells for 50% less.
This year Google will have $72 billion in Revenue. Apple had $233 billion.
Apple had $20 billion in services revenue. Now multiply Apple's hardware revenue by 20% = $43 billion in software revenue. Total is $63 billion in software/services.
Apple's software/services revenue is very close to Google's total.
Ah I see, You're guessing. (BTW, Google doesn't report gross Play Store revenues either, just the same 30% cut of it that Apple so you'd still be wrong) Please use a different thread to guess in. You have a whole lot of them to choose from where you've already gone off-topic with stock complaints.
So you don't think that iOS/OSX has value?
I'd say at least 20% of an iPhone's value is in iOS. Same with Mac. And that's being ultra conservative seeing that Android phones that have similiar hardware as iPhone sells for 50% less.
This year Google will have $72 billion in Revenue. Apple had $233 billion.
Apple had $20 billion in services revenue. Now multiply Apple's hardware revenue by 20% = $43 billion in software revenue. Total is $63 billion in software/services.
Apple's software/services revenue is very close to Google's total.
Yep. I remember reading something over a year ago which said that the cost of an iPhone included the cost of providing iOS plus 1 major update. I assume it was just an internal accounting item but there was a very specific $ value from each phone sold that was attributed to the software provided on it. I wish I could remember where I read the article (probably here?).
Not sure how cable is "revolutionizing anything, paying for crap subsidizes thing you want to watch. That's exactly the cable model. That the crap is not bundled up in channels changes nothing.
Bingo. The fact Netflix can use up so much bandwidth while making a fraction of the revenues that iTunes does shows that they're basically streaming garbage. And yes, I know they have some quality shows they produced. But most of what they stream are old movies and reruns of TV I don't care to watch. THAT'S where the bandwidth is going.
Normally I'd agree but Netflix are making massive inroads to the industry and probably changing it forever (for the better) in a way Apple are not. I really hate the cable model and its delivery system, so this paradigm shift matters to me. Netflix benefits from Apple TV and Apple benefits from Netflix. ... hence I have both stocks.
So, we all subsidizing the Netflix Leechers... Somehow, that's not how I saw net neutrality going. Making sure I pay for someone else's watching crap.
the two arent related. ISPs could still charge fairly based on usage meter, without having to examine what youre spending your bits on (netflix, youtube, whatever).
This article talks about which companies consume the most bandwidth in North America. It's obvious that iTunes, YouTube and NetFlix provide different services and they are not in direct competition with each other. The article doesn't try to imply that it is. Those of you that are complaining about the comparison - and how it is wrong - are the ones that are trying to read more into the article than what it is. You're assuming the article is about who's winning the streaming race - but it's not. It's just about who's using the most bandwidth.
First iTunes traffic has audio and video, Netflix is only video, so we expect that to be larger.
Netflix business comes form this market, Apple is just Enhancing all of its ecosystems (and making money as a complement), bandwidth is not a measure of their profits, actually on NETFLIX too much growth in consumption without same increase of subscriptions, only increases the expense. Apple in video has a direct (almost) relationship with bandwidth and revenue, and in music charges the same 10 USD for a lot less bandwidth usage.
First iTunes traffic has audio and video, Netflix is only video, so we expect that to be larger.
Netflix business comes form this market, Apple is just Enhancing all of its ecosystems (and making money as a complement), bandwidth is not a measure of their profits, actually on NETFLIX too much growth in consumption without same increase of subscriptions, only increases the expense. Apple in video has a direct (almost) relationship with bandwidth and revenue, and in music charges the same 10 USD for a lot less bandwidth usage.
sorry submitted before finished
Real measure is in the same market who has more subscribers and better revenue or profit.
Is speaking about the in app purchases, where Apple gets the 30% cut. I did it that way, easy, no need to give your credit card, you can charge your iTunes account with iTunes cards and by default is active the automatic renovation.
I agree that in-app purchasing is super convenient. I'm just not sold on Apple taking 30% of subscription fees. Especially when the subscription price is then raised to cover the 30% like Spotify does. Does it really cost Apple $3 to process a monthly subscription fee for Netflix?
Netflix prices are going up across the board. It's not tied to users paying via in-app purchases. I traded out my subscription to my iTunes account so I could pay with iTunes gift cards I buy at 20-25% discount. It saves me more that way than staying at my old locked in price that I was grandfathered into which would have expired in a few months anyway and then would have gone up to the same price.
Yep. I remember reading something over a year ago which said that the cost of an iPhone included the cost of providing iOS plus 1 major update. I assume it was just an internal accounting item but there was a very specific $ value from each phone sold that was attributed to the software provided on it. I wish I could remember where I read the article (probably here?).
Just for the updates alone Apple records $25 for iPhone and $40 for Mac.
If Apple is valuing the updates at those prices the core software for iOS/OSX must be valued at $100-$200 per unit.
At those values Apple actually has more software/services revenue than Google.
I just wished Apple would break down these figures and then their finanicals would look more like this:
Hardware sales: $150 billion Software/Services: $70 billion Other Revenue: $10
You do know why Apple sets a (perhaps arbitrary) price on device services outside the initial purchase, correct? If not just search it up. It's not for the reasons you may imagine it is if you've not looked into it.
You don't think iOS/OSX cost money for Apple to make and maintain? Do you not think that people are paying to use iOS/OSX? You don't think iOS is worth $120 per phone?
If you believe all those things then Apple's services/software revenue is over $60 billion.
I do not believe all of those things.
You don't think Android/Chrome OS costs money for Google to make and maintain? Do you not think that people are paying to use Android/Chrome OS? You don't think iOS is worth $120 per phone?
Nope I don't. I don't think Android is worth $120 per phone either, and I don't think Windows is worth $99 per computer either. But that is just me.
The reason your logic is flawed is because you are not applying the same logic across the board.
The numbers you are referring to are imaginary and pulled out of thin air.
I agree that in-app purchasing is super convenient. I'm just not sold on Apple taking 30% of subscription fees. Especially when the subscription price is then raised to cover the 30% like Spotify does. Does it really cost Apple $3 to process a monthly subscription fee for Netflix?
Netflix prices are going up across the board. It's not tied to users paying via in-app purchases. I traded out my subscription to my iTunes account so I could pay with iTunes gift cards I buy at 20-25% discount. It saves me more that way than staying at my old locked in price that I was grandfathered into which would have expired in a few months anyway and then would have gone up to the same price.
I just get Netflix for free. Every 12 months I upgrade my phone contract. Choose the correct bundle and it comes as an extra all for £27 or ~ $38
If Apple is valuing the updates at those prices the core software for iOS/OSX must be valued at $100-$200 per unit.
At those values Apple actually has more software/services revenue than Google.
I just wished Apple would break down these figures and then their finanicals would look more like this:
Hardware sales: $150 billion Software/Services: $70 billion Other Revenue: $10
You do know why Apple sets a (perhaps arbitrary) price on device services outside the initial purchase, correct? If not just search it up. It's not for the reasons you may imagine it is if you've not looked into it.
Its not an arbitrary amount. They need to calculate a reasonable value for 2 years of software updates using GAAP.
Using GAAP the figure was $25 for iOS devices and $40 for Mac's. These are ONLY for the updates. No doubt the value of the core software which is included with the phone itself is valued more than mere updates. So iOS devices has to be around $100 and Mac at about $200.
Apple sold about 310 million iOS devices last year. 310,000,000 x $100 = $31 billion
Apple sold about 21 million Mac's last year. 21,000,000 x $200 = $4.2 billion
Now add the $20 billion in Apps software services.
That gives Apple a total of $55-$60 billion in software/services revenue. That's right up there with Google.
How much did Apple sell Mac OS updates for just a few years ago when they used to charge for them? I would assume that's the fair market value of them as far as Apple is concerned. Point two: Even IF your figures were correct you would still be wrong with your initial assertion about Apple services far exceeding Google's total revenues... AND by your own admission. Third point: USE A DIFFERENT THREAD, one of the multitude you've already waylaid with repetitive Apple complaints. PLEASE!
How much did Apple sell Mac OS updates for just a few years ago when they used to charge for them? I would assume that's the fair market value of them as far as Apple is concerned. Point two: Even IF your figures were correct you would still be wrong with your initial assertion about Apple services far exceeding Google's total revenues... AND by your own admission. Third point: USE A DIFFERENT THREAD, one of the multitude you've already waylaid with repetitive Apple complaints. PLEASE!
OSX use to be $129.
And looking at the feature in iOS, that has to be around $100 if it was a standalone product.
Even if you drop the price to $50 (which is absurd) Apple still does $35-$40 billion in services/software. My whole point is to refute your point that Apple is just a massive hardware company.
Revenue has to come from somewhere to pay for the maintenance of services like iMessage, FaceTime and Maps also. These are value added services that encourage people to purchase the Apple hardware - so wouldn't a portion of each phone sold also go to help pay for those services?
First iTunes traffic has audio and video, Netflix is only video, so we expect that to be larger.
Netflix business comes form this market, Apple is just Enhancing all of its ecosystems (and making money as a complement), bandwidth is not a measure of their profits, actually on NETFLIX too much growth in consumption without same increase of subscriptions, only increases the expense. Apple in video has a direct (almost) relationship with bandwidth and revenue, and in music charges the same 10 USD for a lot less bandwidth usage.
And looking at the feature in iOS, that has to be around $100 if it was a standalone product.
Even if you drop the price to $50 (which is absurd) Apple still does $35-$40 billion in services/software. My whole point is to refute your point that Apple is just a massive hardware company.
Revenue has to come from somewhere to pay for the maintenance of services like iMessage, FaceTime and Maps also. These are value added services that encourage people to purchase the Apple hardware - so wouldn't a portion of each phone sold also go to help pay for those services?
Yes it would.
That's why my estimate of 20% of the cost of the phone is software/services is very conservative. In real life its probably closer to 30-40%.
If that's the case then Apple actual is a $100 billion services/software business and blows away Google's services revenue.
Keep going Sog! Your estimate gets bigger with every post. Another dozen or so and perhaps you can convince us all that Apple is really a software and services company and uses hardware to sell it. Software's gotta be more than $100B a year. You're selling them short! /s
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As for the big content services that stream to Apple TV, like HBO Go and Netflix, we do not know if they pay 30%, or some value much less (like 10 or 15% as is rumoured). IMO Apple should change the App Store guidelines such that recurring subscriptions take a smaller % than pure purchases (and in-app purchases), which are more one-time. This would help to grow the overall subscriptions that pass through Apple.
that was attributed to the software provided on it. I wish I could remember where I read the article (probably here?).
Not sure how cable is "revolutionizing anything, paying for crap subsidizes thing you want to watch.
That's exactly the cable model. That the crap is not bundled up in channels changes nothing.
You don't think Android/Chrome OS costs money for Google to make and maintain?
Do you not think that people are paying to use Android/Chrome OS?
You don't think iOS is worth $120 per phone?
Nope I don't. I don't think Android is worth $120 per phone either, and I don't think Windows is worth $99 per computer either. But that is just me.
The reason your logic is flawed is because you are not applying the same logic across the board.
The numbers you are referring to are imaginary and pulled out of thin air.
Done with this thread.
/s