"It's ridiculous in the extreme for the government to say no matter what the commission find, no matter how stark the evidence may be, that they're going to appeal this," the Sinn Fein spokesman, Pearse Doherty, said to Bloomberg. "This would be tax that would be due from a company that is more wealthy than the entire Irish state." Pearse Doherty
I don't see the problem with that statement. Doherty is right: if Apple is found liable of receiving state aid, they should and must pay back the government. Enda Kenny's statements are ridiculous and amounts to intimidation in the face of strong evidence. It's not like Apple is being singled out as Fiat, Starbucks and dozens of other companies have already either been found to be recipients of state or are being investigated for receiving state aid. Governments looked the other way and now the companies have to suffer the consequences.
That is the allegation, not a proven fact. And like I just said to cnocbui, Tim Cook has emphatically and repeatedly stated that they do obey the laws.
Yes, is the allegation. But Tim Cook saying that they obey the laws and the quote have nothing to do with what the case is about
So you're saying that it doesn't matter that they obeyed the laws? What is this case about then if they're trying to punish Apple in spite of them obeying the laws?
There’s an underlying assumption of fair play in the construction and interpretation of laws and contracts. Even if a country had given a company a deal not available to others, it should not later be the responsibility of the company which received the preferential deal to be subject to clawback. It's the country’s governing authorities who are responsible.
As an example, let's take one of the many times here in the U.S. where a company is given state and/or local tax breaks for constructing or relocating facilities in a state. The deal being offered effects the company’s decision to locate in that state versus elsewhere; in another state or even overseas. It would not be fair to later revoke the arrangement and clawback unpaid taxes from the company while not allowing the company to also recoup the costs of undoing its decision which was predicated upon the agreement (a form of contract) it had with the state government.
Reading some of these comments I would have to believe that most wouldn't want to see additional taxes levied on the wealthy or businesses in the US just because they happen to have more and work within the rules and the existing laws. Why should they pay more just because of a flawed system?
I happen to agree that if a business or individual is operating within the confines of the law they should be left alone and not be specifically targeted with special laws and taxes. In short, fix the system.
I'm just a little surprised because over the last few year the "in thing" has been to attack the successful and make them pay "their fair share".
I'm ok with making the successful pay their fair share, just not retroactively. Sometimes it requires special laws or taxes to correct the broken system that current laws couldn't anticipate their ability to get around them.
Taxes are one area where retroactively is the norm: I can get audited going back quite a few years and if found to have made an error in judging what was owed held accountable for that money by the IRS.
Yes, is the allegation. But Tim Cook saying that they obey the laws and the quote have nothing to do with what the case is about
So you're saying that it doesn't matter that they obeyed the laws? What is this case about then if they're trying to punish Apple in spite of them obeying the laws?
Ireland and Apple made a special arrangement that they argue is within the rules of the EU for corporate aid, the EU suspects it's otherwise.
So you're saying that it doesn't matter that they obeyed the laws? What is this case about then if they're trying to punish Apple in spite of them obeying the laws?
Ireland and Apple made a special arrangement that they argue is within the rules of the EU for corporate aid, the EU suspects it's otherwise.
There's nothing retroactive happening in the "application" of back taxes if the arrangement was never legal in the first place.
This is what the EU are exploring. So Apple and Irish might be operating to the letter of their agreement but if it was void from the start then the whole arrangement unravels, Apple and Ireland were not in fact obeying the law and the parties are back where they started, with bonus sanctions in this case.
Apple chief executive Tim Cook had a private meeting with the European Union’s competition chief Margrethe Vestager as EU regulators close in on a final decision into the company’s Irish tax deals.
The Brussels meeting came on the same day as Taoiseach Enda Kenny described as “false and baseless” claims that Ireland is a tax haven for the company. Apple and the European Commission both confirmed the talks took place but did not elaborate on what was discussed."
What does that even mean. Apple signed something with the existing Irish government, not some rogue faction.
Good grief.
The way this is going, Fein wants it both ways. Apple going there because of arrangement (which I'm guessing thought was legal at the time) and now they, in Ireland, want to punish them for that. What!
I can understand the EU wanting to level the competition across the union and thus making Ireland ask for the taxes, but anyone in Ireland talking now about Apple screwing them is a pure BS artist.
As an Irish Republican and a proud AAPL share holder for over 20 years - the Sinners need to wise up and avoid the US style political BS in business. Apple paid what was required off them under EU and Irish law at that time - they are mandated to that. If corrupt political feck wits in Dublin or Brussels got it wrong - who are they to require retro payments now. Apple helped sustain Cork in tough times and never left as so many US firms did, especially after politically orientated tax incentives and corrupt financial rewards expired - eg. the sad corrupt tale of Fruit of the Loom in north west Ulster.
If they're role in Ireland becomes a political BS game - they will probably adopt a path of least resistance and protect their employees, customers and shareholders
Socialist leaders yet again want to make law working in the past. It does not work this way. Change the law and loopholes and then pursue offenders... after it was chenaged to be effective.
Socialist leaders yet again want to make law working in the past. It does not work this way. Change the law and loopholes and then pursue offenders... after it was chenaged to be effective.
What socialist leaders are you talking about? And what law are saying that they are changing in the past?
This reminds me of the Santeli guy from CNBC. He constantly screams we need tax reform! The corporate tax rate in US is too high. It is 39%. If government lowers Corp tax rate then it will motivate businesses to hire more, invest, etc. One day a guest reminded him that although the corp tax rate is 39% most businesses only pay an average of 15-18% with all the loopholes and tax attorneys. This article throws out 12% tax rate and $8b tax bill. Ireland does not have a flat tax rate. Do they really think Apple who probably has the best tax people on earth would not find enough valid tax loopholes to cut that tax rate in half? They need to move on
Ha, ha! Very, very funny... surely some kind of a joke!
Small minded, bigoted, parochial, medieval conservative Catholic, misogynist. homophobic, macho, brutal, criminal drug dealing, knee-capping nationalists maybe. Left-leaning? You're having a laugh! Somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan...
Why doesn't the EU just come out and ask Apple to bail out all their bankrupt countries instead of wasting time with all this, "We screwed up our tax laws, now YOU must pay for it!" ?
Because they'd have to admit their system is a failure, and that's the last thing they want to do.
Liberalism/Socialism/Communism (essentially the same) is and has always been an abject failure. It has never worked at any time in world history. Keeping in mind that Left vs Right in the USA is opposite of what it means in Europe, there is no denying the mess over there, and it's coming here (as evidenced over the last 7 years).
If they don't like the tax law over there, change it. But this "retroactive taxation" is pure bullshit, yet that's what you get when you're ruled instead of governed.
Comments
I don't see the problem with that statement. Doherty is right: if Apple is found liable of receiving state aid, they should and must pay back the government. Enda Kenny's statements are ridiculous and amounts to intimidation in the face of strong evidence. It's not like Apple is being singled out as Fiat, Starbucks and dozens of other companies have already either been found to be recipients of state or are being investigated for receiving state aid. Governments looked the other way and now the companies have to suffer the consequences.
This is what the EU are exploring. So Apple and Irish might be operating to the letter of their agreement but if it was void from the start then the whole arrangement unravels, Apple and Ireland were not in fact obeying the law and the parties are back where they started, with bonus sanctions in this case.
Apple chief executive Tim Cook had a private meeting with the European Union’s competition chief Margrethe Vestager as EU regulators close in on a final decision into the company’s Irish tax deals.
The Brussels meeting came on the same day as Taoiseach Enda Kenny described as “false and baseless” claims that Ireland is a tax haven for the company. Apple and the European Commission both confirmed the talks took place but did not elaborate on what was discussed."
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/tim-cook-meets-vestager-as-apple-tax-decision-looms-1.2505836
That might have been an interesting discussion.
Good grief.
The way this is going, Fein wants it both ways.
Apple going there because of arrangement (which I'm guessing thought was legal at the time) and now they, in Ireland, want to punish them for that. What!
I can understand the EU wanting to level the competition across the union and thus making Ireland ask for the taxes,
but anyone in Ireland talking now about Apple screwing them is a pure BS artist.
If they're role in Ireland becomes a political BS game - they will probably adopt a path of least resistance and protect their employees, customers and shareholders
Ha, ha! Very, very funny... surely some kind of a joke!
Small minded, bigoted, parochial, medieval conservative Catholic, misogynist. homophobic, macho, brutal, criminal drug dealing, knee-capping nationalists maybe. Left-leaning? You're having a laugh! Somewhere to the right of Ghengis Khan...