Look, Microsoft made a broken comparison, I suggested ways to fix it.
1) compare the entry level MacBook Pro to an entry level surface book 2) compare the GPU surface book to the MacBook Pro that has a GPU.
comparing the entry level MacBook Pro to a mid-tier surface book is nothing but smoke and mirrors and Microsoft set themselves up to get called on their BS. There's no way around it. They said that the surface book was faster than MacBook Pro. Well they were proven wrong. Learn to live with it.
Based in the PC World article,
1) rMBP has a slight advantage over the Surface Book. 2) 28W Quad core CPU + GPU has big advantage over the Surface Book 15W Dual Core + GPU.
I'll add a third one,
3) rMBP 13" vs Surface Book (similar as MS comparison from keynote), gives an advantage to rMBP in CPU intensive tasks while Surface Book has a massive advantage in GPU dependant applications. Considering PC World you can say to a some degree that MS didn't lie, right?
Reality check: the rMBP is a very successful notebook, nobody want a Surface Book.
You'll see that the Surface Book was up to 3x times faster than a Macbook Pro in a specific test, while was considerably faster in GPU dependant applications, while bit slower in others. That shows the benefit of a GPU, something Apple don't have in their 13" models (I think I already mention this many times). And the comparison was made with the Macbook Pro with Retina Display, not the low end model.
You can twist benchmarks to your benefit in many ways. MS did it with the Surface Book vs Macbook Pro 13", and they are right to a some degree when you consider the GPU.
Am I the only one seeing your blind defense of the Surface Flop as utterly ridiculous ?
Using PCword as backup for a Microsoft defense, lol
I'm not defending the Surface. I'm just pointing how Surface Book with GPU is faster than rMBP 13" in GPU dependant applications, and PC World tests support it. If the rMBP 13" had GPU the story would de different, but since Apple decided to not give that option, then it's clear that in some applications the Surface Book is faster.
1) rMBP has a slight advantage over the Surface Book. 2) 28W Quad core CPU + GPU has big advantage over the Surface Book 15W Dual Core + GPU.
I'll add a third one,
3) rMBP 13" vs Surface Book (similar as MS comparison from keynote), gives an advantage to rMBP in CPU intensive tasks while Surface Book has a massive advantage in GPU dependant applications. Considering PC World you can say to a some degree that MS didn't lie, right?
Reality check: the rMBP is a very successful notebook, nobody want a Surface Book.
Look, Microsoft made a broken comparison, I suggested ways to fix it.
1) compare the entry level MacBook Pro to an entry level surface book 2) compare the GPU surface book to the MacBook Pro that has a GPU.
comparing the entry level MacBook Pro to a mid-tier surface book is nothing but smoke and mirrors and Microsoft set themselves up to get called on their BS. There's no way around it. They said that the surface book was faster than MacBook Pro. Well they were proven wrong. Learn to live with it.
Based in the PC World article,
1) rMBP has a slight advantage over the Surface Book. 2) 28W Quad core CPU + GPU has big advantage over the Surface Book 15W Dual Core + GPU.
I'll add a third one,
3) rMBP 13" vs Surface Book (similar as MS comparison from keynote), gives an advantage to rMBP in CPU intensive tasks while Surface Book has a massive advantage in GPU dependant applications. Considering PC World you can say to a some degree that MS didn't lie, right?
1) slight advantage? So you complain about advantages when the less expensive rMBP has an advantage, but you think it is perfectly fair game when Microsoft purposefully chooses to use a mid-range surface book against an entry level MacBook Pro?
2) who's fault is that? Microsoft was the one that claimed that the surface book was twice as fast as the MacBook Pro.
3) if you want to compare the entry level MacBook Pro to a surface book, compare an entry level surface book to an entry level MacBook Pro. I don't know why that's so hard for you to understand. Microsoft certainly lied. They made a gimped comparison. It's like taking a Mac Pro and saying that it is 4 times as fast as a PC because it can whip a PC with a core m and integrated graphics.
Am I the only one seeing your blind defense of the Surface Flop as utterly ridiculous ?
Using PCword as backup for a Microsoft defense, lol
I'm not defending the Surface. I'm just pointing how Surface Book with GPU is faster than rMBP 13" in GPU dependant applications, and PC World tests support it. If the rMBP 13" had GPU the story would de different, but since Apple decided to not give that option, then it's clear that in some applications the Surface Book is faster.
No, you are definitely defending the surface book and defending what Microsoft did here. The fact is that Microsoft completely Lea-frogged over their entry level surface books to compare their dGPU version to an entry level MacBook Pro that doesn't have a GPU.
1) my observation of your behavior. 2) buying a zune and getting wrapped up with Microsoft was not the best option for the consumer. 3) then hush. 4) it doesn't matter. The surface book costs more and doesn't perform as well. 5) the issues with the surface pro and surface book dwarf any that Apple had with their products. If Apple products released with that laundry list of issues, the yelling over it would have been deafening and endless. Also, for the record, the verge is a well known anti-apple publication. 5a) define great. The n-trig based surface pen is worse than a Wacom and the Apple pencil. I used the Smart keyboard and it worked well for me. There's really not much to complain about from my experience.
-Microsoft doesn't have quantity OR quality here. That's the issue. -Well Apple didn't talk about i#ork because there's really nothing new to say. What are they going to say? It's bigger? Still at the end of the day, iWork is great. -those are just your opinions of the Mac Pro bro. As a computer it is just fine and the smaller size of it has its uses. -Xbox one sales = 10 million / Wii U sales = 12.6 million / PlayStation 4 = 36 million - mine uses google. You know, because that's my preferred search engine in safari and Siri goes off of your preferred search engine. -oh, I'm sure that there's no shortage of articles badmouthing Apple. Especially on zdnet. -well it's still happening but ok. -Microsoft is still doing ballmer did then. -Clippy will always be a bad idea -keep in mind that the iPad pro came out and blew the entire surface line away on its debut quarter.
1) If it's "your" observation then it's "your" opinion.
2) The 10 DRM free songs per month was great for consumers. Those people still can hear those songs in their favorite devices today. Beautiful, isn't? Again, how many songs do I get free with Spotify or Apple Music? How many songs do I keep if I cancel the subscription?
3) If you said so...
4) Yes, it cost more and PC World say it performs very well specially with GPU.
5) Do you have any link with specific numbers about SB / SP4 problems vs Apple devices? I haven't seen any. BTW, Apple is offering free repairs for the 2013 Macbook Pro with problems like problems like "distorted or non-existent graphics, as well as freezing, reboots, sudden shutdowns, or even a system failing to start".
So we have a device that starts a $3000, with major problems and after 3yrs Apple decide to fix it. Is that the quality you are talking about? You know what, I prefer the MS way of being open about the problem while working the fix than keep customer for 3yrs with problems without any kind of information. Interesting that this is not the first time. Remember when it happen with the Macbook Pro?
Is this the company you defend so much? I love and have Apple devices, but I have no problem pointing this kind of issues (same as for MS with Surface). And you? Like I said before, both companies have things to praise and other to criticize. Don't you agree?
5a) Pencil being better doesn't makes Pen a bad accessory. Completely different from the Smart Keyboard with it's, shallow keys, single angle position, no backlight and no trackpad,which makes using the iPad Pro awkward when it's used in vertical. (At least that was what SJ said based considering studies Apple made years ago, ). Apple decide to ignore those studies and release the Smart Keyboard. Compare that to the SP4 keyboard which has very good tactile feeling, trackpad and backlight. Looks like SP4 keyboard is better.
- That depends. For example, iPhone is miles ahead of Windows Phone in quality and quantity. The same can be said of Office 2016 / 365 vs iWorks or Windows Server vs OS X Server. I can write a longer list, but I think you got my point.
- It's nice to hear that iWorks works for you. But MS Office still the best, and there is nothing close to it.
- I suppose there is people what are fine with a Mac Pro. But what about high end users how need large quantity of RAM, more expansion and multiples CPU's? They have to look elsewhere, like HP, for high end workstations.
- I haven't seen any recent reports. Can you post links?
- No, today MS is very different from the Ballmer MS. Same as today's Apple is different from past Apple, and not necessary for the better.
- Don't worry, Clippy is no more, now is Tell Me. Same as iTunes Ping was a bad idea, and it's no more. It happens to every company.
- Maybe, maybe not. Like I posted before, those were IDC estimates. I won't comment on sales since Apple neither MS release any numbers. I don't get why Apple didn't release specific numbers since the iPad Pro sold so well. Strange, isn't? What I can say is that iPad Pro didn't stop iPad sales from going down again.
1) my observation is accurate. 2) notice that NOBODY was interested in Microsoft's subscription service? That's kinda the end of it right there. Microsoft gives 2-5 free games with an XBL subscription too, but have you seen the games they/ have been offering lately? 3) then hush 4) The surface book costs more than the MacBook Pro with a GPU and does not perform as well. 5) are you really that blind? Surface book and surface pro both have insane levels of bugs from day 1. Am I saying that Apple products never release with bugs? Nope. But dude, some of the bugs dealing with the surface book are on the design level. Not just from some manufacturing error or firmware issue. Also have you seen the laundry list i-of issues with surface devices? Apple products usually release with 1 or 2 bugs but man the surface line's list of bugs is so long that I feel the urge to listen to Yackety Sax as the list scrolls by in double time. You say that you prefer the Ms way of being open, but Microsoft WASN'T open! They buried their head in the sand until the endless complaints about their product grew too loud to ignore.
5a) well I've used the smart keyboard and it was fine when I did. You're sitting there talking about Steve jobs but seem to forget that he demonstrated a keyboard dock for the original iPad that had one angle, no backlit keys and no trackpad. Also the iPad and iOS aren't designed for use with a trackpad or mouse or whatever. That's the nature of the OS. You say that Apple decided to 'ignore these studies'? Dude, get out of my face.
-if word is so great, then why can't it produce print ready graphics and gradients without looking cheap or having streaks or banding? -Microsoft stopped reporting their individual system sales back in 2014 -Bing is NOT the default search engine for Siri. Siri uses whatever search engine YOU set as your default when you set up your iOS device. -Really?
-Microsoft today is doing the same sort of stuff that it did under ballmer. -ping didn't automatically pop up and butt in front of what you're trying to do everytime you start up iTunes. -more than just IDC estimates but whatever. You've been beyond ridiculous this entire exchange.
1) rMBP has a slight advantage over the Surface Book. 2) 28W Quad core CPU + GPU has big advantage over the Surface Book 15W Dual Core + GPU.
I'll add a third one,
3) rMBP 13" vs Surface Book (similar as MS comparison from keynote), gives an advantage to rMBP in CPU intensive tasks while Surface Book has a massive advantage in GPU dependant applications. Considering PC World you can say to a some degree that MS didn't lie, right?
1) slight advantage? So you complain about advantages when the less expensive rMBP has an advantage, but you think it is perfectly fair game when Microsoft purposefully chooses to use a mid-range surface book against an entry level MacBook Pro?
2) who's fault is that? Microsoft was the one that claimed that the surface book was twice as fast as the MacBook Pro.
3) if you want to compare the entry level MacBook Pro to a surface book, compare an entry level surface book to an entry level MacBook Pro. I don't know why that's so hard for you to understand. Microsoft certainly lied. They made a gimped comparison. It's like taking a Mac Pro and saying that it is 4 times as fast as a PC because it can whip a PC with a core m and integrated graphics.
1) I'm not complaining. I just point out which is faster based in the CPU, which is the rMBP if we compare it to the non-GPU Surface Book. Do I think it's fair the comparison MS made? I don't know, (neither do you) since MS didn't disclose details of the tests. What both of us know is that the benchmark results from PC World gives an advantage to the Surface Book with GPU enable apps over the rMBP 13", with up 3x the performance in one of the tests. Don't you think that the PC World benchmark proves MS right, since the comparison was between the Surface Book and the rMBP 13"?
2) PC World says it's up to 3x in the gaming test. Blame Apple for not including a GPU in the rMBP 13".
3) Until MS release details of the test, your assumption that MS lied will be that, an assumption. Facts requires more than that. Did MS lied about the Surface Book? For now the real answer is, we don't know. But based in PC World test, there is a chance MS didn't lie.
I'm not defending the Surface. I'm just pointing how Surface Book with GPU is faster than rMBP 13" in GPU dependant applications, and PC World tests support it. If the rMBP 13" had GPU the story would de different, but since Apple decided to not give that option, then it's clear that in some applications the Surface Book is faster.
No, you are definitely defending the surface book and defending what Microsoft did here. The fact is that Microsoft completely Lea-frogged over their entry level surface books to compare their dGPU version to an entry level MacBook Pro that doesn't have a GPU.
No, I'm not defending MS / Surface. I'm just pointing out the PC World article comparing the rMBP 13" (not the entry MB Pro 13") to the Surface Book with the results you already know.
1) If it's "your" observation then it's "your" opinion.
2) The 10 DRM free songs per month was great for consumers. Those people still can hear those songs in their favorite devices today. Beautiful, isn't? Again, how many songs do I get free with Spotify or Apple Music? How many songs do I keep if I cancel the subscription?
3) If you said so...
4) Yes, it cost more and PC World say it performs very well specially with GPU.
5) Do you have any link with specific numbers about SB / SP4 problems vs Apple devices? I haven't seen any. BTW, Apple is offering free repairs for the 2013 Macbook Pro with problems like problems like "distorted or non-existent graphics, as well as freezing, reboots, sudden shutdowns, or even a system failing to start".
So we have a device that starts a $3000, with major problems and after 3yrs Apple decide to fix it. Is that the quality you are talking about? You know what, I prefer the MS way of being open about the problem while working the fix than keep customer for 3yrs with problems without any kind of information. Interesting that this is not the first time. Remember when it happen with the Macbook Pro?
Is this the company you defend so much? I love and have Apple devices, but I have no problem pointing this kind of issues (same as for MS with Surface). And you? Like I said before, both companies have things to praise and other to criticize. Don't you agree?
5a) Pencil being better doesn't makes Pen a bad accessory. Completely different from the Smart Keyboard with it's, shallow keys, single angle position, no backlight and no trackpad,which makes using the iPad Pro awkward when it's used in vertical. (At least that was what SJ said based considering studies Apple made years ago, ). Apple decide to ignore those studies and release the Smart Keyboard. Compare that to the SP4 keyboard which has very good tactile feeling, trackpad and backlight. Looks like SP4 keyboard is better.
- That depends. For example, iPhone is miles ahead of Windows Phone in quality and quantity. The same can be said of Office 2016 / 365 vs iWorks or Windows Server vs OS X Server. I can write a longer list, but I think you got my point.
- It's nice to hear that iWorks works for you. But MS Office still the best, and there is nothing close to it.
- I suppose there is people what are fine with a Mac Pro. But what about high end users how need large quantity of RAM, more expansion and multiples CPU's? They have to look elsewhere, like HP, for high end workstations.
- I haven't seen any recent reports. Can you post links?
- No, today MS is very different from the Ballmer MS. Same as today's Apple is different from past Apple, and not necessary for the better.
- Don't worry, Clippy is no more, now is Tell Me. Same as iTunes Ping was a bad idea, and it's no more. It happens to every company.
- Maybe, maybe not. Like I posted before, those were IDC estimates. I won't comment on sales since Apple neither MS release any numbers. I don't get why Apple didn't release specific numbers since the iPad Pro sold so well. Strange, isn't? What I can say is that iPad Pro didn't stop iPad sales from going down again.
1) my observation is accurate. 2) notice that NOBODY was interested in Microsoft's subscription service? That's kinda the end of it right there. Microsoft gives 2-5 free games with an XBL subscription too, but have you seen the games they/ have been offering lately? 3) then hush 4) The surface book costs more than the MacBook Pro with a GPU and does not perform as well. 5) are you really that blind? Surface book and surface pro both have insane levels of bugs from day 1. Am I saying that Apple products never release with bugs? Nope. But dude, some of the bugs dealing with the surface book are on the design level. Not just from some manufacturing error or firmware issue. Also have you seen the laundry list i-of issues with surface devices? Apple products usually release with 1 or 2 bugs but man the surface line's list of bugs is so long that I feel the urge to listen to Yackety Sax as the list scrolls by in double time. You say that you prefer the Ms way of being open, but Microsoft WASN'T open! They buried their head in the sand until the endless complaints about their product grew too loud to ignore.
5a) well I've used the smart keyboard and it was fine when I did. You're sitting there talking about Steve jobs but seem to forget that he demonstrated a keyboard dock for the original iPad that had one angle, no backlit keys and no trackpad. Also the iPad and iOS aren't designed for use with a trackpad or mouse or whatever. That's the nature of the OS. You say that Apple decided to 'ignore these studies'? Dude, get out of my face.
-if word is so great, then why can't it produce print ready graphics and gradients without looking cheap or having streaks or banding? -Microsoft stopped reporting their individual system sales back in 2014 -Bing is NOT the default search engine for Siri. Siri uses whatever search engine YOU set as your default when you set up your iOS device. -Really?
-Microsoft today is doing the same sort of stuff that it did under ballmer. -ping didn't automatically pop up and butt in front of what you're trying to do everytime you start up iTunes. -more than just IDC estimates but whatever. You've been beyond ridiculous this entire exchange.
1) "Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." Since you don't know me, you don't have the facts, but still make a judgment. So it's an opinion.
2) Yes, nobody was interested. But still was the best offer for the price, even over what Apple Music and Spotify offer today. And there is a difference from XBL and Zune, I decided which songs I'll keep. Too bad new services don't have something as good as this offer, don't you think?
3) if you said so...
4) I already knew that. A notebook with quad core + GPU has to be faster. Too bad it's heavier and larger than the Surface Book. That means that the only option between Apple and MS for a 13" notebook w GPU is the Surface Book. MS did the right thing of giving customers the option, don't you think?
5) Yes, SB and SP4 has it's list of bugs in the initial release. From what I have read, most of them have been fixed, but still the power management issues, which MS already acknowledge.
A part from that I haven't seen the design level bugs you talk about. Can you point them out? Then you said that MS "They buried their head in the sand". Isn't that what Apple did with the Macbook Pro 15" and the Mac Pro, two of their high end devices? Both companies accepted problems with their devices. The only difference is that Apple took 3YRS and MS a few months. Which one do you prefer? If Apple did that to their high end customers, don't you think they could do the same for the rest of their devices?
5a) Good for you that you liked the Smart Keyboard. Still SP4 keyboard is better. Second, iOS limitations aside, iPad Pro w/ Smart Keyboard have the same problem SJ describe in the article with touch screen notebooks, vertical screen to navigate UI is not the best from an ergonomic POV. And I'm pointing out the article with the "studies" Apple did. You mention the Apple iPad Keyboard Dock they release in 2010, but you fail to mention that early 2011 was discontinued. Could it be because of the bad experience? So Apple do the same, with the Smart Keyboard, not angle option and shallow keys. This is the reason I mention that Apple decide to ignore the studies and feedback they had. Compare that to was MS did with the SP4 integrated stand and the keyboard. IMO, this is one of the advantages of SP4 over iPad Pro. I apologize if my posts are "in your face". I'm just pointing the article I found.
- Maybe it's a bug. But as a whole, Word is far more capable and polished than Pages.
- I know. But for some reason, you went ahead and posted that they sold 10M consoles. Where your number came from? At least mine came from an article that matches EA numbers,
- I followed the links, I noticed a long list of articles from different business sites. Are you saying that every negative Apple article come from MS promote shills? I just asked for more recent activities like this, because one of the article is from 2008 and the other mention that MS wasn't involved directly, and stopped the vendor / agency from going ahead. Do you have any specific example, like the 2008 article, but more recent? If not, then it looks like they have stop doing this for many years.
- No, they have changed in the two years Nadella have been CEO. Even stock is up after years of flat growth.
1) slight advantage? So you complain about advantages when the less expensive rMBP has an advantage, but you think it is perfectly fair game when Microsoft purposefully chooses to use a mid-range surface book against an entry level MacBook Pro?
2) who's fault is that? Microsoft was the one that claimed that the surface book was twice as fast as the MacBook Pro.
3) if you want to compare the entry level MacBook Pro to a surface book, compare an entry level surface book to an entry level MacBook Pro. I don't know why that's so hard for you to understand. Microsoft certainly lied. They made a gimped comparison. It's like taking a Mac Pro and saying that it is 4 times as fast as a PC because it can whip a PC with a core m and integrated graphics.
1) I'm not complaining. I just point out which is faster based in the CPU, which is the rMBP if we compare it to the non-GPU Surface Book. Do I think it's fair the comparison MS made? I don't know, (neither do you) since MS didn't disclose details of the tests. What both of us know is that the benchmark results from PC World gives an advantage to the Surface Book with GPU enable apps over the rMBP 13", with up 3x the performance in one of the tests. Don't you think that the PC World benchmark proves MS right, since the comparison was between the Surface Book and the rMBP 13"?
2) PC World says it's up to 3x in the gaming test. Blame Apple for not including a GPU in the rMBP 13".
3) Until MS release details of the test, your assumption that MS lied will be that, an assumption. Facts requires more than that. Did MS lied about the Surface Book? For now the real answer is, we don't know. But based in PC World test, there is a chance MS didn't lie.
1) we know that Microsoft compared an entry level MacBook Pro to a mid-level surface book. 2) PC world, likewise, compared an entry level MacBook Pro to a mid-level surface book. 3) We know what Microsoft was comparing their surface book to. So they lied. Based on PC World's test, Microsoft lied. they tested an entry level MacBook Pro vs a mid-range surface book. No matter how you want to spin it, Microsoft lied.
1) my observation is accurate. 2) notice that NOBODY was interested in Microsoft's subscription service? That's kinda the end of it right there. Microsoft gives 2-5 free games with an XBL subscription too, but have you seen the games they/ have been offering lately? 3) then hush 4) The surface book costs more than the MacBook Pro with a GPU and does not perform as well. 5) are you really that blind? Surface book and surface pro both have insane levels of bugs from day 1. Am I saying that Apple products never release with bugs? Nope. But dude, some of the bugs dealing with the surface book are on the design level. Not just from some manufacturing error or firmware issue. Also have you seen the laundry list i-of issues with surface devices? Apple products usually release with 1 or 2 bugs but man the surface line's list of bugs is so long that I feel the urge to listen to Yackety Sax as the list scrolls by in double time. You say that you prefer the Ms way of being open, but Microsoft WASN'T open! They buried their head in the sand until the endless complaints about their product grew too loud to ignore.
5a) well I've used the smart keyboard and it was fine when I did. You're sitting there talking about Steve jobs but seem to forget that he demonstrated a keyboard dock for the original iPad that had one angle, no backlit keys and no trackpad. Also the iPad and iOS aren't designed for use with a trackpad or mouse or whatever. That's the nature of the OS. You say that Apple decided to 'ignore these studies'? Dude, get out of my face.
-if word is so great, then why can't it produce print ready graphics and gradients without looking cheap or having streaks or banding? -Microsoft stopped reporting their individual system sales back in 2014 -Bing is NOT the default search engine for Siri. Siri uses whatever search engine YOU set as your default when you set up your iOS device. -Really?
-Microsoft today is doing the same sort of stuff that it did under ballmer. -ping didn't automatically pop up and butt in front of what you're trying to do everytime you start up iTunes. -more than just IDC estimates but whatever. You've been beyond ridiculous this entire exchange.
1) "Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." Since you don't know me, you don't have the facts, but still make a judgment. So it's an opinion.
2) Yes, nobody was interested. But still was the best offer for the price, even over what Apple Music and Spotify offer today. And there is a difference from XBL and Zune, I decided which songs I'll keep. Too bad new services don't have something as good as this offer, don't you think?
3) if you said so...
4) I already knew that. A notebook with quad core + GPU has to be faster. Too bad it's heavier and larger than the Surface Book. That means that the only option between Apple and MS for a 13" notebook w GPU is the Surface Book. MS did the right thing of giving customers the option, don't you think?
5) Yes, SB and SP4 has it's list of bugs in the initial release. From what I have read, most of them have been fixed, but still the power management issues, which MS already acknowledge.
A part from that I haven't seen the design level bugs you talk about. Can you point them out? Then you said that MS "They buried their head in the sand". Isn't that what Apple did with the Macbook Pro 15" and the Mac Pro, two of their high end devices? Both companies accepted problems with their devices. The only difference is that Apple took 3YRS and MS a few months. Which one do you prefer? If Apple did that to their high end customers, don't you think they could do the same for the rest of their devices?
5a) Good for you that you liked the Smart Keyboard. Still SP4 keyboard is better. Second, iOS limitations aside, iPad Pro w/ Smart Keyboard have the same problem SJ describe in the article with touch screen notebooks, vertical screen to navigate UI is not the best from an ergonomic POV. And I'm pointing out the article with the "studies" Apple did. You mention the Apple iPad Keyboard Dock they release in 2010, but you fail to mention that early 2011 was discontinued. Could it be because of the bad experience? So Apple do the same, with the Smart Keyboard, not angle option and shallow keys. This is the reason I mention that Apple decide to ignore the studies and feedback they had. Compare that to was MS did with the SP4 integrated stand and the keyboard. IMO, this is one of the advantages of SP4 over iPad Pro. I apologize if my posts are "in your face". I'm just pointing the article I found.
- Maybe it's a bug. But as a whole, Word is far more capable and polished than Pages.
- I know. But for some reason, you went ahead and posted that they sold 10M consoles. Where your number came from? At least mine came from an article that matches EA numbers,
- I followed the links, I noticed a long list of articles from different business sites. Are you saying that every negative Apple article come from MS promote shills? I just asked for more recent activities like this, because one of the article is from 2008 and the other mention that MS wasn't involved directly, and stopped the vendor / agency from going ahead. Do you have any specific example, like the 2008 article, but more recent? If not, then it looks like they have stop doing this for many years.
- No, they have changed in the two years Nadella have been CEO. Even stock is up after years of flat growth.
- Still Ping was a bad idea, just as Clipply was bad too. The only difference is that Ping is dead and Clippy evolve in Tell Me.
- Again, no numbers from Apple or MS. Let's see if in the future the are numbers to talk about and not speculate.
Blahdeblahblah
it's pretty clear that you're the resident Microsoft defense force around here. Microsoft lied and got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Microsoft PAID the NFL to shill for them and it blew up in their face. Microsoft has a history of trying to shill and having it blow up in their face.
1) I'm not complaining. I just point out which is faster based in the CPU, which is the rMBP if we compare it to the non-GPU Surface Book. Do I think it's fair the comparison MS made? I don't know, (neither do you) since MS didn't disclose details of the tests. What both of us know is that the benchmark results from PC World gives an advantage to the Surface Book with GPU enable apps over the rMBP 13", with up 3x the performance in one of the tests. Don't you think that the PC World benchmark proves MS right, since the comparison was between the Surface Book and the rMBP 13"?
2) PC World says it's up to 3x in the gaming test. Blame Apple for not including a GPU in the rMBP 13".
3) Until MS release details of the test, your assumption that MS lied will be that, an assumption. Facts requires more than that. Did MS lied about the Surface Book? For now the real answer is, we don't know. But based in PC World test, there is a chance MS didn't lie.
1) we know that Microsoft compared an entry level MacBook Pro to a mid-level surface book. 2) PC world, likewise, compared an entry level MacBook Pro to a mid-level surface book. 3) We know what Microsoft was comparing their surface book to. So they lied. Based on PC World's test, Microsoft lied. they tested an entry level MacBook Pro vs a mid-range surface book. No matter how you want to spin it, Microsoft lied.
I don't think the results between the entry or high end rMBP 13" would be different. Like I have posted many times, considering PC World tests, GPU made the difference. They didn't lie, they just pointed out a weakness in the rMBP. Do you want a 13" notebook with GPU? Go MS. Want a 15" notebook with GPU? Go Apple.
1) "Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge." Since you don't know me, you don't have the facts, but still make a judgment. So it's an opinion.
2) Yes, nobody was interested. But still was the best offer for the price, even over what Apple Music and Spotify offer today. And there is a difference from XBL and Zune, I decided which songs I'll keep. Too bad new services don't have something as good as this offer, don't you think?
3) if you said so...
4) I already knew that. A notebook with quad core + GPU has to be faster. Too bad it's heavier and larger than the Surface Book. That means that the only option between Apple and MS for a 13" notebook w GPU is the Surface Book. MS did the right thing of giving customers the option, don't you think?
5) Yes, SB and SP4 has it's list of bugs in the initial release. From what I have read, most of them have been fixed, but still the power management issues, which MS already acknowledge.
A part from that I haven't seen the design level bugs you talk about. Can you point them out? Then you said that MS "They buried their head in the sand". Isn't that what Apple did with the Macbook Pro 15" and the Mac Pro, two of their high end devices? Both companies accepted problems with their devices. The only difference is that Apple took 3YRS and MS a few months. Which one do you prefer? If Apple did that to their high end customers, don't you think they could do the same for the rest of their devices?
5a) Good for you that you liked the Smart Keyboard. Still SP4 keyboard is better. Second, iOS limitations aside, iPad Pro w/ Smart Keyboard have the same problem SJ describe in the article with touch screen notebooks, vertical screen to navigate UI is not the best from an ergonomic POV. And I'm pointing out the article with the "studies" Apple did. You mention the Apple iPad Keyboard Dock they release in 2010, but you fail to mention that early 2011 was discontinued. Could it be because of the bad experience? So Apple do the same, with the Smart Keyboard, not angle option and shallow keys. This is the reason I mention that Apple decide to ignore the studies and feedback they had. Compare that to was MS did with the SP4 integrated stand and the keyboard. IMO, this is one of the advantages of SP4 over iPad Pro. I apologize if my posts are "in your face". I'm just pointing the article I found.
- Maybe it's a bug. But as a whole, Word is far more capable and polished than Pages.
- I know. But for some reason, you went ahead and posted that they sold 10M consoles. Where your number came from? At least mine came from an article that matches EA numbers,
- I followed the links, I noticed a long list of articles from different business sites. Are you saying that every negative Apple article come from MS promote shills? I just asked for more recent activities like this, because one of the article is from 2008 and the other mention that MS wasn't involved directly, and stopped the vendor / agency from going ahead. Do you have any specific example, like the 2008 article, but more recent? If not, then it looks like they have stop doing this for many years.
- No, they have changed in the two years Nadella have been CEO. Even stock is up after years of flat growth.
- Still Ping was a bad idea, just as Clipply was bad too. The only difference is that Ping is dead and Clippy evolve in Tell Me.
- Again, no numbers from Apple or MS. Let's see if in the future the are numbers to talk about and not speculate.
Blahdeblahblah
it's pretty clear that you're the resident Microsoft defense force around here.
No, I don't need to defend any vendor. Right now I have more Apple devices than from any other brand. But I have no problems pointing out where MS is doing better than Apple and viceversa.
Microsoft lied and got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
You don't know if MS lie. Without details of the test, you can only assume. Still, do you think that a high end rMBP 13" without GPU would have any advantage over a Surface Book w / GPU in GPU enable apps? I don't think so. Like you said, you have to go to the rMBP 15", a heavier and larger notebook. If you want a 13" w/ GPU, MS is the way to go.
Microsoft PAID the NFL to shill for them and it blew up in their face. Microsoft has a history of trying to shill and having it blow up in their face.
Thanks for bring back the article. Yes, MS paid the NFL and looks like they are doing good. Even with the wifi down, they went hardwire and kept working. Can you imagine if that had happened with iPad's, that have no ethernet option (at least that I'm aware of)?
1) we know that Microsoft compared an entry level MacBook Pro to a mid-level surface book. 2) PC world, likewise, compared an entry level MacBook Pro to a mid-level surface book. 3) We know what Microsoft was comparing their surface book to. So they lied. Based on PC World's test, Microsoft lied. they tested an entry level MacBook Pro vs a mid-range surface book. No matter how you want to spin it, Microsoft lied.
I don't think the results between the entry or high end rMBP 13" would be different. Like I have posted many times, considering PC World tests, GPU made the difference. They didn't lie, they just pointed out a weakness in the rMBP. Do you want a 13" notebook with GPU? Go MS. Want a 15" notebook with GPU? Go Apple.
Don't sit there and compare a mid-range GPU-based laptop to an entry level integrated one and then make the claim that it was a fair or equal comparison.
it's pretty clear that you're the resident Microsoft defense force around here.
No, I don't need to defend any vendor. Right now I have more Apple devices than from any other brand. But I have no problems pointing out where MS is doing better than Apple and viceversa.
You don't know if MS lie. Without details of the test, you can only assume. Still, do you think that a high end rMBP 13" without GPU would have any advantage over a Surface Book w / GPU in GPU enable apps? I don't think so. Like you said, you have to go to the rMBP 15", a heavier and larger notebook. If you want a 13" w/ GPU, MS is the way to go.
Thanks for bring back the article. Yes, MS paid the NFL and looks like they are doing good. Even with the wifi down, they went hardwire and kept working. Can you imagine if that had happened with iPad's, that have no ethernet option (at least that I'm aware of)?
1) You are sitting here defending Microsoft. 2) they compared an entry level mbp to a mid-dance surface book and then claimed that the surface book was twice as fast. That's deceptive because that's only when you test a mid-range surface book to an entry level MacBook Pro and it is ONLY in one category. On top of that, the surface book line has a bad price pound for pound and is rife with bugs and hardware defects. 3) the point is that Microsoft PAID the NFL to use their surface pro's and it blew up in their faces. Whether it was their fault or not, the media is full of videos showing people being frustrated with their surfaces and even throwing them in disappointment. That's what happens when you pay others to shill for you.
I don't think the results between the entry or high end rMBP 13" would be different. Like I have posted many times, considering PC World tests, GPU made the difference. They didn't lie, they just pointed out a weakness in the rMBP. Do you want a 13" notebook with GPU? Go MS. Want a 15" notebook with GPU? Go Apple.
Don't sit there and compare a mid-range GPU-based laptop to an entry level integrated one and then make the claim that it was a fair or equal comparison.
I think MS already knew it wasn't fair, and went directly to point out the rMBP 13" lack of GPU, and how it was a big advantage for the Surface Book. Can you blame them? And I have noticed that people in the internet is doing the same comparison, rMBP 13" vs SB. Are you mad at them too?
No, I don't need to defend any vendor. Right now I have more Apple devices than from any other brand. But I have no problems pointing out where MS is doing better than Apple and viceversa.
You don't know if MS lie. Without details of the test, you can only assume. Still, do you think that a high end rMBP 13" without GPU would have any advantage over a Surface Book w / GPU in GPU enable apps? I don't think so. Like you said, you have to go to the rMBP 15", a heavier and larger notebook. If you want a 13" w/ GPU, MS is the way to go.
Thanks for bring back the article. Yes, MS paid the NFL and looks like they are doing good. Even with the wifi down, they went hardwire and kept working. Can you imagine if that had happened with iPad's, that have no ethernet option (at least that I'm aware of)?
1) You are sitting here defending Microsoft. 2) they compared an entry level mbp to a mid-dance surface book and then claimed that the surface book was twice as fast. That's deceptive because that's only when you test a mid-range surface book to an entry level MacBook Pro and it is ONLY in one category. On top of that, the surface book line has a bad price pound for pound and is rife with bugs and hardware defects. 3) the point is that Microsoft PAID the NFL to use their surface pro's and it blew up in their faces. Whether it was their fault or not, the media is full of videos showing people being frustrated with their surfaces and even throwing them in disappointment. That's what happens when you pay others to shill for you.
1) One more time, I'm not defending MS. I just point out good things and bad things, and have no problem doing it for MS, Apple, Google or whatever other company. Like I mention before, most of my devices are from Apple, but I have no need to defend them or justify my purchase. Apple make great devices, same for MS.
2) Why it's deceptive? How about if I purchase a Surface Book and work with Adobe Premier, Photoshop or play games? The SB w/ GPU will give me a better experience over a rMBP 13". Did MS over emphasize the GPU in the keynote? Of course they did. But that doesn't mean they lie. And since you don't have all the elements of the test, you don't know. You shouldn't speculate trying to defend Apple. rMBP 13" is a great notebook, but SB has some advantages, starting with the GPU. And I suppose that's not hard to see. Second, do you think SB has a bad price "pound for pound". Have you seen the Macbook? Btw, last week MS release a long list of bug fixes, and look they went for one of the major problems, power management. And Apple had recalls rMBP and Mac Pro's. Do you consider them bad devices because of the problems they had?
3) I don't see how it blew in their face. I was watching the game and they explain that it was a networking issue, and went hardwire until they fix it. Still, looks like Surface devices did their work and during the game it was clarified. And your point, of how players treat the Surface, is weird. Do you really think that they are mad at the device and not being frustrated for bad plays? Do you really think players hate Gatorade when they kick the cooler or that they hate Riddell when they throw helmets to the ground? On the opposite, it's nice to see Surface still working after being treated that way, and working in snow or rain. I think that's positive of the brand.
Comments
Reality check: the rMBP is a very successful notebook, nobody want a Surface Book.
What the rMBP success has to do with my comment?
2) who's fault is that? Microsoft was the one that claimed that the surface book was twice as fast as the MacBook Pro.
3) if you want to compare the entry level MacBook Pro to a surface book, compare an entry level surface book to an entry level MacBook Pro. I don't know why that's so hard for you to understand. Microsoft certainly lied. They made a gimped comparison. It's like taking a Mac Pro and saying that it is 4 times as fast as a PC because it can whip a PC with a core m and integrated graphics.
1) my observation is accurate.
2) notice that NOBODY was interested in Microsoft's subscription service? That's kinda the end of it right there. Microsoft gives 2-5 free games with an XBL subscription too, but have you seen the games they/ have been offering lately?
3) then hush
4) The surface book costs more than the MacBook Pro with a GPU and does not perform as well.
5) are you really that blind? Surface book and surface pro both have insane levels of bugs from day 1. Am I saying that Apple products never release with bugs? Nope. But dude, some of the bugs dealing with the surface book are on the design level. Not just from some manufacturing error or firmware issue. Also have you seen the laundry list i-of issues with surface devices? Apple products usually release with 1 or 2 bugs but man the surface line's list of bugs is so long that I feel the urge to listen to Yackety Sax as the list scrolls by in double time. You say that you prefer the Ms way of being open, but Microsoft WASN'T open! They buried their head in the sand until the endless complaints about their product grew too loud to ignore.
https://www.thurrott.com/mobile/microsoft-surface/64095/welcome-to-surfacegate
5a) well I've used the smart keyboard and it was fine when I did. You're sitting there talking about Steve jobs but seem to forget that he demonstrated a keyboard dock for the original iPad that had one angle, no backlit keys and no trackpad. Also the iPad and iOS aren't designed for use with a trackpad or mouse or whatever. That's the nature of the OS. You say that Apple decided to 'ignore these studies'? Dude, get out of my face.
http://www.imore.com/ipad-keyboard-dock-hands
-if word is so great, then why can't it produce print ready graphics and gradients without looking cheap or having streaks or banding?
-Microsoft stopped reporting their individual system sales back in 2014
-Bing is NOT the default search engine for Siri. Siri uses whatever search engine YOU set as your default when you set up your iOS device.
-Really?
http://aaplinvestors.net/stats/ipad/ipaddeathwatch/
http://aaplinvestors.net/stats/iphone/iphonedeathwatch/
-Microsoft today is doing the same sort of stuff that it did under ballmer.
-ping didn't automatically pop up and butt in front of what you're trying to do everytime you start up iTunes.
-more than just IDC estimates but whatever. You've been beyond ridiculous this entire exchange.
2) PC World says it's up to 3x in the gaming test. Blame Apple for not including a GPU in the rMBP 13".
3) Until MS release details of the test, your assumption that MS lied will be that, an assumption. Facts requires more than that. Did MS lied about the Surface Book? For now the real answer is, we don't know. But based in PC World test, there is a chance MS didn't lie.
2) Yes, nobody was interested. But still was the best offer for the price, even over what Apple Music and Spotify offer today. And there is a difference from XBL and Zune, I decided which songs I'll keep. Too bad new services don't have something as good as this offer, don't you think?
3) if you said so...
4) I already knew that. A notebook with quad core + GPU has to be faster. Too bad it's heavier and larger than the Surface Book. That means that the only option between Apple and MS for a 13" notebook w GPU is the Surface Book. MS did the right thing of giving customers the option, don't you think?
5) Yes, SB and SP4 has it's list of bugs in the initial release. From what I have read, most of them have been fixed, but still the power management issues, which MS already acknowledge.
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/forum/surfpro4-surfperf/a-note-to-our-customers-from-the-microsoft-surface/b9f3e9c7-3643-4de3-9468-1e2b4c18dbd1?auth=1#wb
A part from that I haven't seen the design level bugs you talk about. Can you point them out? Then you said that MS "They buried their head in the sand". Isn't that what Apple did with the Macbook Pro 15" and the Mac Pro, two of their high end devices? Both companies accepted problems with their devices. The only difference is that Apple took 3YRS and MS a few months. Which one do you prefer? If Apple did that to their high end customers, don't you think they could do the same for the rest of their devices?
5a) Good for you that you liked the Smart Keyboard. Still SP4 keyboard is better. Second, iOS limitations aside, iPad Pro w/ Smart Keyboard have the same problem SJ describe in the article with touch screen notebooks, vertical screen to navigate UI is not the best from an ergonomic POV. And I'm pointing out the article with the "studies" Apple did. You mention the Apple iPad Keyboard Dock they release in 2010, but you fail to mention that early 2011 was discontinued. Could it be because of the bad experience? So Apple do the same, with the Smart Keyboard, not angle option and shallow keys. This is the reason I mention that Apple decide to ignore the studies and feedback they had. Compare that to was MS did with the SP4 integrated stand and the keyboard. IMO, this is one of the advantages of SP4 over iPad Pro. I apologize if my posts are "in your face". I'm just pointing the article I found.
- Maybe it's a bug. But as a whole, Word is far more capable and polished than Pages.
- I know. But for some reason, you went ahead and posted that they sold 10M consoles. Where your number came from? At least mine came from an article that matches EA numbers,
http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/01/29/xbox-one-sales-figures-may-have-been-revealed-by-ea
- From what I know, Siri use Bing as default search engine. You can change that later, but as default is Bing.
http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-integrates-siri-with-bing-search-2013-6
- I followed the links, I noticed a long list of articles from different business sites. Are you saying that every negative Apple article come from MS promote shills? I just asked for more recent activities like this, because one of the article is from 2008 and the other mention that MS wasn't involved directly, and stopped the vendor / agency from going ahead. Do you have any specific example, like the 2008 article, but more recent? If not, then it looks like they have stop doing this for many years.
- No, they have changed in the two years Nadella have been CEO. Even stock is up after years of flat growth.
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-marc-benioff-tested-satya-nadella-before-deciding-to-cozy-up-with-microsoft-2015-5
http://news.softpedia.com/news/microsoft-leaves-group-that-tried-to-bust-google-in-the-us-and-europe-499367.shtml
http://fortune.com/2015/09/09/microsoft-apple-event-office/
http://diginomica.com/2016/01/29/microsofts-new-cloud-world-order-takes-over-from-windows/
- Still Ping was a bad idea, just as Clipply was bad too. The only difference is that Ping is dead and Clippy evolve in Tell Me.
- Again, no numbers from Apple or MS. Let's see if in the future the are numbers to talk about and not speculate.
2) PC world, likewise, compared an entry level MacBook Pro to a mid-level surface book.
3) We know what Microsoft was comparing their surface book to. So they lied. Based on PC World's test, Microsoft lied. they tested an entry level MacBook Pro vs a mid-range surface book. No matter how you want to spin it, Microsoft lied.
Blahdeblahblah
it's pretty clear that you're the resident Microsoft defense force around here. Microsoft lied and got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Microsoft PAID the NFL to shill for them and it blew up in their face. Microsoft has a history of trying to shill and having it blow up in their face.
No, I don't need to defend any vendor. Right now I have more Apple devices than from any other brand. But I have no problems pointing out where MS is doing better than Apple and viceversa.
You don't know if MS lie. Without details of the test, you can only assume. Still, do you think that a high end rMBP 13" without GPU would have any advantage over a Surface Book w / GPU in GPU enable apps? I don't think so. Like you said, you have to go to the rMBP 15", a heavier and larger notebook. If you want a 13" w/ GPU, MS is the way to go.
Thanks for bring back the article. Yes, MS paid the NFL and looks like they are doing good. Even with the wifi down, they went hardwire and kept working. Can you imagine if that had happened with iPad's, that have no ethernet option (at least that I'm aware of)?
1) You are sitting here defending Microsoft.
2) they compared an entry level mbp to a mid-dance surface book and then claimed that the surface book was twice as fast. That's deceptive because that's only when you test a mid-range surface book to an entry level MacBook Pro and it is ONLY in one category. On top of that, the surface book line has a bad price pound for pound and is rife with bugs and hardware defects.
3) the point is that Microsoft PAID the NFL to use their surface pro's and it blew up in their faces. Whether it was their fault or not, the media is full of videos showing people being frustrated with their surfaces and even throwing them in disappointment. That's what happens when you pay others to shill for you.
2) Why it's deceptive? How about if I purchase a Surface Book and work with Adobe Premier, Photoshop or play games? The SB w/ GPU will give me a better experience over a rMBP 13". Did MS over emphasize the GPU in the keynote? Of course they did. But that doesn't mean they lie. And since you don't have all the elements of the test, you don't know. You shouldn't speculate trying to defend Apple. rMBP 13" is a great notebook, but SB has some advantages, starting with the GPU. And I suppose that's not hard to see. Second, do you think SB has a bad price "pound for pound". Have you seen the Macbook? Btw, last week MS release a long list of bug fixes, and look they went for one of the major problems, power management. And Apple had recalls rMBP and Mac Pro's. Do you consider them bad devices because of the problems they had?
3) I don't see how it blew in their face. I was watching the game and they explain that it was a networking issue, and went hardwire until they fix it. Still, looks like Surface devices did their work and during the game it was clarified. And your point, of how players treat the Surface, is weird. Do you really think that they are mad at the device and not being frustrated for bad plays? Do you really think players hate Gatorade when they kick the cooler or that they hate Riddell when they throw helmets to the ground? On the opposite, it's nice to see Surface still working after being treated that way, and working in snow or rain. I think that's positive of the brand.