Would some rational person please explain why we need a law for this when failure to follow a court order is already a criminal offense? Yes, that court order can be stayed on appeal but criminal convictions can be appealed too. Spending time and resources on this simply reinforces why our current legislative body gets nothing useful accomplished.
Enforce the laws we have. We don't need more laws restating other laws.
A court can not order someone to do something that they can not do. Apple built their security so that even they do not have access so what is the point of the court order if Apple does not have the decryption keys? And as for Congress passing a law concerning this, it could never be applied to this case as you can not pass a law to charge someone retrospectively. Apple would win that one in court.
If Apple held the encryption keys for that phone, they could comply with a valid court order/search warrant but they do not have the keys.
In light of this whole issue and the Governments apparent lack of security for its own networks, infrastructure, and data...maybe Apple should be the ones who create the security for the Government networks.
Would some rational person please explain why we need a law for this when failure to follow a court order is already a criminal offense? Yes, that court order can be stayed on appeal but criminal convictions can be appealed too. Spending time and resources on this simply reinforces why our current legislative body gets nothing useful accomplished.
Enforce the laws we have. We don't need more laws restating other laws.
A court can not order someone to do something that they can not do. Apple built their security so that even they do not have access so what is the point of the court order if Apple does not have the decryption keys? And as for Congress passing a law concerning this, it could never be applied to this case as you can not pass a law to charge someone retrospectively. Apple would win that one in court.
If Apple held the encryption keys for that phone, they could comply with a valid court order/search warrant but they do not have the keys.
I agree and hope it's that way but what the court and FBI are demanding Apple do is to create special software to break into this phone. They don't care about the law, they only care about the fight against terrorism. As we've seen, the majority of courts stand together and will protect each other so Apple, like in the eBook case, doesn't stand a chance in winning anything in court. The only thing that will stop this fiasco is for the Supreme Court to side with Apple and for sanity to return to Congress. (we can always hope)
In light of this whole issue and the Governments apparent lack of security for its own networks, infrastructure, and data...maybe Apple should be the ones who create the security for the Government networks.
YES!!!! Finally someone who is on the right path. The ironic thing about this is that DoD just announced their demand for 4M Windows 10 updates to be performed by February 2017. The DoD is always on the side of "fighting terrorism" because that's what they get paid to do. (They're not paid to actually protect the grand olde US of A, just try and rule the rest of the world.) I strongly believe this announcement, Apple's fight for real security and Microsoft's silence on any meaningful support for Apple has been contrived by the US government to show how little it really likes Apple and any of the products it makes. The US government has never supported Apple products in anything other than lip service and their actions prove it. Could Apple, IBM, Cisco and an assortment of other non-Microsoft vendors run a more secure government system? I believe so and I tried to do it before I retired. Of course, I didn't have the power to enforce change.
If this ever becomes a law I would like to see Apple leave the United States. I wonder how many billions the US govt would lose in revenue.
In fact, any and every company that is dependent on reliable cryptography for their products and customers should threaten to sue the government or prepare to leave should the need arise.
This Act also requires three other qualifications: 1) The business in question (Apple) has some connection to the investigation, 2) There are extraordinary circumstances that justify the use of the All Writs Act, and 3) The All Writs Act only applies if compliance is not an unreasonable burden.
YES!
1 - Apple has no connection with the terror suspects and were not part of the plot to kill people. They sold the phone to the employer, not the perp. 2 - Define extraordinary. 14 people killed. Very bad. No ticking time-bomb that will kill thousands more and enough time has passed that anyone who could have been connected and on that phone have split. No extraordinary circumstances there. 3 - Again, define unreasonable. "We'll just have you rewrite that software you've been perfecting for the last 5 years so that it doesn't work like it should. Then, you need to show us how to force that new software that we had to create onto this phone without damaging anything inside. Oh, and you need to make that software ONLY viable for this one phone and not for any other phone ever." Unreasonable defined.
I guess they can always use the "think of the children!!"" excuse to try and shame Apple into trying to accomplish this. I hope they don't succeed.
I could support some mild form of this if any law included non-negotiable criminal penalties for government and government officials who violated any aspect of it. Misuse it? Lie to get a warrant? Mistake facts? Prison. Information discovered aside from the exact stuff in the warrant is granted immunity.
These people in law enforcement and government security created this situation via their own behavior, arrogance, corruption and constantly violating our rights. The entire mess is their fault.
That's hysterical! Just giving them the key would make it publicly available, or abused, eventually. Do you think virtually all of these clowns have actually ALWAYS followed the law? Don't be so naive. Just think "Dick Cheney". Once its in the wild, its too late. The "law" be damned.
You know what pisses me off about how these politicians? They won't ban people on the terrorist watch list from buying guns but rather punishing companies for securing people's privacy.
Great point!!!!! The real terrorism is that 10's of thousands of people are killed every year in this country through the use of guns, and we insanely allow people to buy assault weapons and massive bullet magazines. As tragic as this incident was, the reality is terrorism is going on in our country every day. Sanctioned by the US Congress and the NRA. The NRA being the largest terrorist organization operating in the US based on being a ferocious enabler.
Would some rational person please explain why we need a law for this when failure to follow a court order is already a criminal offense? Yes, that court order can be stayed on appeal but criminal convictions can be appealed too. Spending time and resources on this simply reinforces why our current legislative body gets nothing useful accomplished.
Enforce the laws we have. We don't need more laws restating other laws.
Just a thought - but could it be some sort of attempted cash grab? The existing law may not allow for high enough penalties so he wants to write a new one that can take a bigger chunk of cash away from Apple. When corrupt people (lawyers/politicians/patent trolls) hear the word Apple, all reason goes out the window and the only thing they see are dollar signs.
Would some rational person please explain why we need a law for this when failure to follow a court order is already a criminal offense? Yes, that court order can be stayed on appeal but criminal convictions can be appealed too. Spending time and resources on this simply reinforces why our current legislative body gets nothing useful accomplished.
Enforce the laws we have. We don't need more laws restating other laws.
Just a thought - but could it be some sort of attempted cash grab? The existing law may not allow for high enough penalties so he wants to write a new one that can take a bigger chunk of cash away from Apple. When corrupt people (lawyers/politicians/patent trolls) hear the word Apple, all reason goes out the window and the only thing they see are dollar signs.
You know what pisses me off about how these politicians? They won't ban people on the terrorist watch list from buying guns but rather punishing companies for securing people's privacy.
Great point!!!!! The real terrorism in this country is that 10's of thousands of people are killed every year in this country through the use of guns, and we allow people to buy assault weapons and massive bullet magazines. As tragic as this incident was, the reality is terrorism is going on in our country every day. Sanctioned by the US Congress and the NRA. The NRA being the largest terrorist organization operating in the US based on being a ferocious enabler.
Myth: 30,000 people are killed with guns every year.
FACT: 61% of these deaths are suicides (80% in Canada).
Numerous studies have shown that the presence or absence of a firearm
does not change the overall (i.e., gun plus non-gun) suicide rate. This
30,000 number also includes justifiable homicides (self-defense) and
accidents.
Source: Center for Disease Control, WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports Death Involving Firearms, Kathryn Wilkins, Health Report vol. 16, no 4, Statistics Canada.
Great point!!!!! The real terrorism in this country is that 10's of thousands of people are killed every year in this country through the use of guns, and we allow people to buy assault weapons and massive bullet magazines. As tragic as this incident was, the reality is terrorism is going on in our country every day. Sanctioned by the US Congress and the NRA. The NRA being the largest terrorist organization operating in the US based on being a ferocious enabler.
Myth: 30,000 people are killed with guns every year.
FACT: 61% of these deaths are suicides (80% in Canada).
Numerous studies have shown that the presence or absence of a firearm
does not change the overall (i.e., gun plus non-gun) suicide rate. This
30,000 number also includes justifiable homicides (self-defense) and
accidents.
Source: Center for Disease Control, WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports Death Involving Firearms, Kathryn Wilkins, Health Report vol. 16, no 4, Statistics Canada.
Hysterical - someone labeling facts as myth and restating the same facts as truth, but trying to rationalize them away - 10's of thousands killed each year with guns = FACT. And of course lets not forget incidents like Columbine, the Aurora Theater or Sandy Hook.
So by all means, lets not let facts get in the way of the real terrorism in this country - 84,258 nonfatal injuries from gunshots; 11,208 deaths by homicide; 21,175 by suicide with a firearm; and 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm - and of course lets not dwell on the fact that more of our youth die from gunshots each year than from auto accidents. Enough to make you proud, no?
So instead of dealing with the real issues in this country, we're using scare tactics by our government to give up fundamental rights to personal privacy en mass, and put the privacy of others around the world at risk at the same time. That is the real issue. We spend 10's of BILLIONS a year on national security. Lets demand that those in charge use the means they have available to them now, and stop this assault on our ability to keep our private information private.
Great point!!!!! The real terrorism in this country is that 10's of thousands of people are killed every year in this country through the use of guns, and we allow people to buy assault weapons and massive bullet magazines. As tragic as this incident was, the reality is terrorism is going on in our country every day. Sanctioned by the US Congress and the NRA. The NRA being the largest terrorist organization operating in the US based on being a ferocious enabler.
Myth: 30,000 people are killed with guns every year.
FACT: 61% of these deaths are suicides (80% in Canada).
Numerous studies have shown that the presence or absence of a firearm
does not change the overall (i.e., gun plus non-gun) suicide rate. This
30,000 number also includes justifiable homicides (self-defense) and
accidents.
Source: Center for Disease Control, WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports Death Involving Firearms, Kathryn Wilkins, Health Report vol. 16, no 4, Statistics Canada.
Myth: People who assert there being no connection between the permissive availability of firearms and homicide are sane.
The US has a homicide rate of 3.8 per 100,000. The homicide rate involving firearms is 3.5 per 100,000
Australia has a homicide rate of 1.1 per 100,000 the ownership and nature of firearms is severely restricted. The rate of homicide involving firearms is 0.16 per 100,000.
10's of thousands killed each year with guns = FACT.
And?
So by all means, lets not let facts get in the way of the real terrorism in this country
Because facts show the real terrorism isn’t from the private ownership of guns, correct.
Enough to make you proud, no?
Prouder than those who live in totalitarian shitholes, yeah.
So instead of dealing with the real issues in this country, we're using scare tactics by our government to give up fundamental rights to personal privacy en mass, and put the privacy of others around the world at risk at the same time.
Mexico sure does well, what with not having firearm ownership.
Myth: 30,000 people are killed with guns every year.
FACT: 61% of these deaths are suicides (80% in Canada).
Numerous studies have shown that the presence or absence of a firearm
does not change the overall (i.e., gun plus non-gun) suicide rate. This
30,000 number also includes justifiable homicides (self-defense) and
accidents.
Source: Center for Disease Control, WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports Death Involving Firearms, Kathryn Wilkins, Health Report vol. 16, no 4, Statistics Canada.
... - and of course lets not dwell on the fact that more of our youth die from gunshots each year than from auto accidents. Enough to make you proud, no? ...
This includes “children” up to age 19 or 24, depending on the source. Since most violent crime is committed by males ages 16-24, this also includes adult gang members dying during criminal
activity. The proper definition of ‘child’
is a person between birth and puberty (typically 13-14 years old) and
in 2013 only 1 child was killed on an average day nationwide, or about
0.02 children per state per day. 411 children (age 14 and under) died from gunfire in all of 2012 or
slightly more than one per day. This includes homicides, accidents, and
suicides combined. Source: Center for Disease Control WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports for 2013 Center for Disease Control WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports for 2010
The non-gun
homicide rate of children in the U.S. is more than twice as high as in
other western countries. And eight times as many children die from non-gun violent acts than from gun crimes. This indicates that the problem is violence, not guns. Source: Kids and Guns, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, 2000
1,446 children die per year in transportation accidents.
Parental neglect and abuse account for 80% of all child deaths (1,274) which dwarfs gun deaths.
1,917 children die each day from malaria around
the world and 15 men, women, and children per day are murdered by a
convicted felon in government supervised parole/probation programs in
the U.S.
Source: Center for Disease Control WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports for 2012 Child Abuse and Neglect Fatalities 2012, Child Welfare Information Gateway, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Fact Sheet No 178, U.N. World Health Organization, 1998 US Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1998
And for more die from gun related incidents than auto accidents...see chat below Since 8 times as many die from drowning...do you propose banning swimming pools? A lot more die in transportation related incidents. Do we ban cars, bikes, buses, etc?
Comments
If Apple held the encryption keys for that phone, they could comply with a valid court order/search warrant but they do not have the keys.
YES!!!! Finally someone who is on the right path. The ironic thing about this is that DoD just announced their demand for 4M Windows 10 updates to be performed by February 2017. The DoD is always on the side of "fighting terrorism" because that's what they get paid to do. (They're not paid to actually protect the grand olde US of A, just try and rule the rest of the world.) I strongly believe this announcement, Apple's fight for real security and Microsoft's silence on any meaningful support for Apple has been contrived by the US government to show how little it really likes Apple and any of the products it makes. The US government has never supported Apple products in anything other than lip service and their actions prove it. Could Apple, IBM, Cisco and an assortment of other non-Microsoft vendors run a more secure government system? I believe so and I tried to do it before I retired. Of course, I didn't have the power to enforce change.
1 - Apple has no connection with the terror suspects and were not part of the plot to kill people. They sold the phone to the employer, not the perp.
2 - Define extraordinary. 14 people killed. Very bad. No ticking time-bomb that will kill thousands more and enough time has passed that anyone who could have been connected and on that phone have split. No extraordinary circumstances there.
3 - Again, define unreasonable. "We'll just have you rewrite that software you've been perfecting for the last 5 years so that it doesn't work like it should. Then, you need to show us how to force that new software that we had to create onto this phone without damaging anything inside. Oh, and you need to make that software ONLY viable for this one phone and not for any other phone ever." Unreasonable defined.
I guess they can always use the "think of the children!!"" excuse to try and shame Apple into trying to accomplish this. I hope they don't succeed.
Oxymoron - "Senate Intelligence Committee"
That's hysterical! Just giving them the key would make it publicly available, or abused, eventually. Do you think virtually all of these clowns have actually ALWAYS followed the law? Don't be so naive. Just think "Dick Cheney". Once its in the wild, its too late. The "law" be damned.
FACT: 61% of these deaths are suicides (80% in Canada). Numerous studies have shown that the presence or absence of a firearm does not change the overall (i.e., gun plus non-gun) suicide rate. This 30,000 number also includes justifiable homicides (self-defense) and accidents.
Source:Center for Disease Control, WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports
Death Involving Firearms, Kathryn Wilkins, Health Report vol. 16, no 4, Statistics Canada.
stevnim said: Why would you EVER think that a congressman represents the people of his state?
So by all means, lets not let facts get in the way of the real terrorism in this country - 84,258 nonfatal injuries from gunshots; 11,208 deaths by homicide; 21,175 by suicide with a firearm; and 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm - and of course lets not dwell on the fact that more of our youth die from gunshots each year than from auto accidents. Enough to make you proud, no?
So instead of dealing with the real issues in this country, we're using scare tactics by our government to give up fundamental rights to personal privacy en mass, and put the privacy of others around the world at risk at the same time. That is the real issue. We spend 10's of BILLIONS a year on national security. Lets demand that those in charge use the means they have available to them now, and stop this assault on our ability to keep our private information private.
The US has a homicide rate of 3.8 per 100,000. The homicide rate involving firearms is 3.5 per 100,000
Australia has a homicide rate of 1.1 per 100,000 the ownership and nature of firearms is severely restricted. The rate of homicide involving firearms is 0.16 per 100,000.
And?
Because facts show the real terrorism isn’t from the private ownership of guns, correct.
Prouder than those who live in totalitarian shitholes, yeah.
Mexico sure does well, what with not having firearm ownership.
Source:
Center for Disease Control WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports for 2013
Center for Disease Control WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports for 2010
The non-gun homicide rate of children in the U.S. is more than twice as high as in other western countries. And eight times as many children die from non-gun violent acts than from gun crimes. This indicates that the problem is violence, not guns.
Source:
Kids and Guns, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, 2000
- 1,446 children die per year in transportation accidents.
- Parental neglect and abuse account for 80% of all child deaths (1,274) which dwarfs gun deaths.
- 1,917 children die each day from malaria around
the world and 15 men, women, and children per day are murdered by a
convicted felon in government supervised parole/probation programs in
the U.S.
Source:Center for Disease Control WISQARS Fatal Injury Reports for 2012
Child Abuse and Neglect Fatalities 2012, Child Welfare Information Gateway, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Fact Sheet No 178, U.N. World Health Organization, 1998
US Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1998
And for more die from gun related incidents than auto accidents...see chat below Since 8 times as many die from drowning...do you propose banning swimming pools? A lot more die in transportation related incidents. Do we ban cars, bikes, buses, etc?