If you believe that, you have no idea what's being proposed.
Quit spinning an agenda. I'm not sure if you're just yapping and/or ignorant. Look at the bigger picture of what the government is trying to do, and will certainly do in the near future. Apple is not in the business of doing the work of law enforcement. To my knowledge, all attacks happened regardless of what was on someone's phone.
This could be used by Apple to show the burden on the company and how it affects freedom of speech.
No judge is going to care much about that pouting stance. The creation of an actual private from the government communication system is never going to fly. Never.
The AWA requires that the order doesn’t create undue burden and as such the judge has to care about these things, even if in the end it is not enough to sway her decision. Losing qualified personnel knowledgable of how the security system works is a burden, I would imagine that only a small group at Apple has this kind of responsibility.
I read the NYT article. Pretty interesting link to old article about the company Lavabit. They went through the same thing Apple is going through now. If anyone is interested, here is a link to the story about Lavabit:
Let's put this in terms you Apple sympathizers will understand. An awesome new company has just invented an encrypted physical key to a physical encrypted door to some child molesters creepy basement. Impervious to any locksmith and of course any court orders to open it with a warrant to search for your missing son or daughter that the government believes might be inside or might contain clues as to the whereabouts of your child. Now do you get it? Simpletons Apple helps terrorists!
Let's put this in terms you Apple sympathizers will understand. An awesome new company has just invented an encrypted physical key to a physical encrypted door to some child molesters creepy basement. Impervious to any locksmith and of course any court orders to open it with a warrant to search for your missing son or daughter that the government believes might be inside or might contain clues as to the whereabouts of your child. Now do you get it? Simpletons Apple helps terrorists!
Don't know if this person is being sarcastic or missing half a brain.
No this is nothing like that situation. You forgot the part where the key is also the key to a billion people's homes and all their personal info. Also the child molester is DEAD and the house, well, like your head, nothing's in there.
Let's put this in terms you Apple sympathizers will understand. An awesome new company has just invented an encrypted physical key to a physical encrypted door to some child molesters creepy basement. Impervious to any locksmith and of course any court orders to open it with a warrant to search for your missing son or daughter that the government believes might be inside or might contain clues as to the whereabouts of your child. Now do you get it? Simpletons Apple helps terrorists!
Your analogy is incorrect. - the lock company makes and sells tens of millions of this model of lock - the FBI asks them to make a skeleton key to open the one basement door, only due to the technical nature of the lock the key, if made, would be capable of opening every single one of the tens of millions of locks sold, many of which are used to keep our sons and daughters safe.
Quit spinning an agenda. I'm not sure if you're just yapping and/or ignorant. Look at the bigger picture of what the government is trying to do, and will certainly do in the near future. Apple is not in the business of doing the work of law enforcement. To my knowledge, all attacks happened regardless of what was on someone's phone.
Ignorant in what way? If I've said anything factually inaccurate, point it out and I'll be happy to retract it when shown the error. Many, many statements on this forum about the technical details of this issue are simply and provably wrong.
As for the philosophical argument we all have a different view of the 'bigger picture'. Mine (and my 'agenda') is that we are a nation of laws, protected by a constitution, a system of checks and balances and a system of judicial review. Nowhere in that system does a private corporation get to dictate matters of law. Ceding the rule of law to a corporation is far more dangerous than the contents of a phone.
Would you be as happy if it were IBM or Samsung hiding behind a privacy argument to defend their business model? Or General Motors? How about GE? Or Citibank? Just because we all like Apple products doesn't mean that they get to determine the law. Bernie Sanders entire political movement is based on the idea that private companies have usurped democratic powers. And that, I agree with.
Just to be clear, the previous two paragraphs are opinions, not facts. Feel free to disparage them. But if you bring up technical issues make sure you do enough research to get them right. If you don't understand the technology, don't make stuff up or just repeat what you read elsewhere. The signal to noise ratio on this forum is poor enough as it is.
Apple should incorporate a new sister company - in another country. Sell iOS to this new company and have the new, foreign company manage all aspects of iOS development which they would then license back to Apple.
If Apple transferred all software development to the new, foreign company - they'd have no programmers left working for Apple USA that could be court-ordered to create something. Apple USA would of course still control the roadmap for iOS and OSX - but the actual development would be done by people working for the foreign entity and beyond the reach of US law.
Apple USA could keep R&D, Hardware Design and Services while the foreign based sister company handles all software development.
Let's put this in terms you Apple sympathizers will understand. An awesome new company has just invented an encrypted physical key to a physical encrypted door to some child molesters creepy basement. Impervious to any locksmith and of course any court orders to open it with a warrant to search for your missing son or daughter that the government believes might be inside or might contain clues as to the whereabouts of your child. Now do you get it? Simpletons Apple helps terrorists!
Your analogy is incorrect. - the lock company makes and sells tens of millions of this model of lock - the FBI asks them to make a skeleton key to open the one basement door, only due to the technical nature of the lock the key, if made, would be capable of opening every single one of the tens of millions of locks sold, many of which are used to keep our sons and daughters safe.
Your analogy is also incorrect. Apple is not being asked to create a skeleton key. They are being asked to create a procedure for unlocking phones. The software itself -- the 'key' in your parlance -- only fits a single lock. But the procedure could be used to create other keys for other phones. But -- and here's the big difference -- each of those new keys must be separately authorized by a warrant and a subsequent court order. Then that specific 'key' must signed by Apple before it will open the lock. That means there is judicial review for each individual case. That's exactly the type of protection guaranteed by the US constitution.
In the worst case that government gets to seize source code and signing keys, Apple's obligation to its customers' security would be to make what was seized obsolete. Apple would have to treat it exactly as though their keys and code had been stolen by hackers. It would take time for outside experts to study and make use of the source code. By then, Apple could (hopefully) replace and revoke their old keys so that all devices not already under government control can be updated to no longer accept updates using the old key. Then release a new version of iOS.
Apple can regain control of their product because they also design the only hardware their software runs on. Future iOS devices would not accept GovtOS. So what does the government do then? Demand permanent access to all future OS source code and keys? This insanity would just increase until Congress either shuts it down with laws that limit law enforcement from doing this, or at the opposite extreme creates laws that explicitly obligate tech companies to conduct mass surveillance of their customers which would be stored on behalf of the government — which would be beyond the pale and comparable to telling phone companies they had to record every call.
Once companies like Apple have designed best-practices for privacy and security that deny the company any knowledge of customer data, there is no reason for the company to ever again have that knowledge except for government mandated surveillance.
Your analogy is also incorrect. Apple is not being asked to create a skeleton key. They are being asked to create a procedure for unlocking phones. The software itself -- the 'key' in your parlance -- only fits a single lock. But the procedure could be used to create other keys for other phones. But -- and here's the big difference -- each of those new keys must be separately authorized by a warrant and a subsequent court order. Then that specific 'key' must signed by Apple before it will open the lock. That means there is judicial review for each individual case. That's exactly the type of protection guaranteed by the US constitution.
No Jeff that is not the case at all. The FBI are asking Apple to create a version of iOS that allows infinite attempts at the password. If such a version were created and subsequently stolen/leaked it could be used on any other iPhone. Hence the "skeleton key" that opens all the locks analogy.
The other issue Apple has is where does this end? At first the FBI said this is just for this one phone but them Comey (spelling?) admitted they would want to use such a compromised version many many times. So that would compel Apple to constantly maintain a compromised version of iOS in perpetuity.
Though I hope that there is no GovtOS, would these employees be charged with "Contempt of Court"?
Certainly not if they decide to quit before the actual final ruling. Even after the ruling, they could probably challenge it in court, with the equivalent of the argument of (as the NYT article points out) "you can't force a doctor to administer a lethal injection."
But any such attempt by US courts to get into the entrails of Apple's operations would be a breathtaking intervention by the government in the business of business.
The US government is worried about corporations leaving the country because of tax inversions? Wait till something like this happens: they ain't seen nothin' yet. Some of America's (and the world's) greatest companies will have the incentive to shut shop and leave, or even worse, US companies like Apple and Google simply won't create this kind of IP within its legal shores: it'll move to places like Ireland, India, and Israel.
I totally agree with you are saying. I just floated the question to get the conversation going.
In the worst case that government gets to seize source code and signing keys, Apple's obligation to its customers' security would be to make what was seized obsolete. Apple would have to treat it exactly as though their keys and code had been stolen by hackers. It would take time for outside experts to study and make use of the source code. By then, Apple could (hopefully) replace and revoke their old keys so that all devices not already under government control can be updated to no longer accept updates using the old key. Then release a new version of iOS.
Apple can regain control of their product because they also design the only hardware their software runs on. Future iOS devices would not accept GovtOS. So what does the government do then? Demand permanent access to all future OS source code and keys? This insanity would just increase until Congress either shuts it down with laws that limit law enforcement from doing this, or at the opposite extreme creates laws that explicitly obligate tech companies to conduct mass surveillance of their customers which would be stored on behalf of the government — which would be beyond the pale and comparable to telling phone companies they had to record every call.
Once companies like Apple have designed best-practices for privacy and security that deny the company any knowledge of customer data, there is no reason for the company to ever again have that knowledge except for government mandated surveillance.
This nightmare scenario is why Apple should never, ever, agree to give up its signing keys. I believe that if it came to that, they would simply comply with the existing court order. Most people here think that's evil (personally, I don't) but there's no question that it places far less data at risk than the alternative.
The Government is using the Al Writs Acts because it considers that Apple is able to help in the San Bernardino case and that this help is not unreasonably burdensome. However, if Apple's situation changes., i.e., all key employees quit, then the Government cannot possibly hold Apple in contempt. The court order requiring Apple to develop a backdoored OS cannot be fulfilled. Apple would be off the hook. The sad part of the fbi vs Apple case is that the government has nothing to lose (in one sense). You and I and the US tech industry have everything to lose. There would be a lack of trust in American products and American products would not sell well (guess this would be a loss to the US Govt in tax revenue). Anyone using Apple products (US citizens and permanent residents included) could potentially be more vulnerable to theft and government spying. The precedence will enable the US Govt to go after other tech companies using encryption. In the meantime, terrorists have been tipped off already regardless of who wins this case. They will use other communication means (i.e., PlayStation 4 was used in the Paris attacks).
Comments
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/03/us/snowdens-e-mail-provider-discusses-pressure-from-fbi-to-disclose-data.html
We really need to fight this. This isn't Apple's fight but EVERYONE's fight. Let freedom ring!!
Don't know if this person is being sarcastic or missing half a brain.
No this is nothing like that situation. You forgot the part where the key is also the key to a billion people's homes and all their personal info. Also the child molester is DEAD and the house, well, like your head, nothing's in there.
- the lock company makes and sells tens of millions of this model of lock
- the FBI asks them to make a skeleton key to open the one basement door, only due to the technical nature of the lock the key, if made, would be capable of opening every single one of the tens of millions of locks sold, many of which are used to keep our sons and daughters safe.
As for the philosophical argument we all have a different view of the 'bigger picture'. Mine (and my 'agenda') is that we are a nation of laws, protected by a constitution, a system of checks and balances and a system of judicial review. Nowhere in that system does a private corporation get to dictate matters of law. Ceding the rule of law to a corporation is far more dangerous than the contents of a phone.
Would you be as happy if it were IBM or Samsung hiding behind a privacy argument to defend their business model? Or General Motors? How about GE? Or Citibank? Just because we all like Apple products doesn't mean that they get to determine the law. Bernie Sanders entire political movement is based on the idea that private companies have usurped democratic powers. And that, I agree with.
Just to be clear, the previous two paragraphs are opinions, not facts. Feel free to disparage them. But if you bring up technical issues make sure you do enough research to get them right. If you don't understand the technology, don't make stuff up or just repeat what you read elsewhere. The signal to noise ratio on this forum is poor enough as it is.
If Apple transferred all software development to the new, foreign company - they'd have no programmers left working for Apple USA that could be court-ordered to create something. Apple USA would of course still control the roadmap for iOS and OSX - but the actual development would be done by people working for the foreign entity and beyond the reach of US law.
Apple USA could keep R&D, Hardware Design and Services while the foreign based sister company handles all software development.
Apple can regain control of their product because they also design the only hardware their software runs on. Future iOS devices would not accept GovtOS. So what does the government do then? Demand permanent access to all future OS source code and keys? This insanity would just increase until Congress either shuts it down with laws that limit law enforcement from doing this, or at the opposite extreme creates laws that explicitly obligate tech companies to conduct mass surveillance of their customers which would be stored on behalf of the government — which would be beyond the pale and comparable to telling phone companies they had to record every call.
Once companies like Apple have designed best-practices for privacy and security that deny the company any knowledge of customer data, there is no reason for the company to ever again have that knowledge except for government mandated surveillance.
Gov is not going to back down, America would not be Great again, ever.
The other issue Apple has is where does this end? At first the FBI said this is just for this one phone but them Comey (spelling?) admitted they would want to use such a compromised version many many times. So that would compel Apple to constantly maintain a compromised version of iOS in perpetuity.
I totally agree with you are saying. I just floated the question to get the conversation going.