Apple Pay hasn't yet come to Japan, and even if it does the Bank cartel here will surely screw it up more royally than what Australian banks are trying to do. Paypal entered Japan with the same set of features as the US, until Japanese banks complained and had Paypal remove friends/family transfers completely. To pay a family member means you must use a credit card and pay the related fees, versus friends/family which has no such fees. The banks here want to maintain their high fee structure. And unlike Paypal in the US, if you have the equivalent of $500 or less in your Paypal account, you have to pay $2.50 equivalent in the form of a withdrawal fee (to send funds to your bank). No such minimum exists on Paypal in the US. So I expect the same foolishness to happen to Apple Pay. It's ridiculous.
from what i read competition laws in Australia are a bit stricter than in the US and are based on market power, not market dominance, so in theory they could have a case against Apple if they could prove that NFC payments is a market by itself and that Apple wishes to profit from it through its smartphone market power (which is high in Australia), damaging competition by not allowing others to use NFC on its phones. Arguing that it is a security measure might not be enough under the law.
I want to be able to stop carrying my dam wallet. Why carry a wallet when the phone is with me all the time? Get with the times Aussie banks...
If your bank card is the only thing stopping you from ditching your wallet, either stick it on the back of your phone with tape or buy a phone case with a card slot.
Australian banks are even more profitable than their Swiss counterparts - on part because they pull stunts like this, but mostly because they have absurd fees that are significantly out of order to the services provided. This is the result from a lack of real competition.
Despite Australia's relatively small population, transaction fees were over 2 billion in 2015. Make no mistake, this is what the banks are protecting - they don't give a damn about consumers or competition. In fact they try to harm competition at every opportunity.
The suggestion that any or all providers of closed-NFC hardware must open such hardware for competitors is idiotic. There is no such thing as having a monopoly on your own platform. Meanwhile Commonwealth Bank's latest EFT terminal deliberately excludes support for American Express, a clear indication that they are two faced about such an approach.
The "modern" solutions provided by these banks are laughable and lacking in security. One such example is the Commonwealth Bank's stick-on NFC token which they advise to stick onto your smart phone. The problem here is that sales under $100 are completely pin code free, and should the phone be stolen the primary means of managing the token is taken away. Compare that to Apple Pay which requires a finger print for verification, and utilises a tokenised transaction and it's clear that the banks aren't interested in even basic protections for consumers.
This whole thread is a laugh. Boo hoo, big mean Australian banks with their terrible monopoly and no competition.
ANZ, Westpac, Commonwealth, NAB, that's all there is for a poor bank choice impoverished ausie to choose from, right? That's the usual whinge, right? Don't mention the other 339 banks, building societies, credit unions and such you could choose from, that would spoil the story, wouldn't it? A population of about 20 million and only 343 financial institutions to choose from, boo hoo, there's no competition!
The big 4 are big and stay big because they are amongst the best financial institutions available in the world. Seriously, if you think Australian banks are a rip off, move to another country and live there for a while. I currently live in Ireland and have lived in Australia. I'll take Australian banks anytime, I have accounts in both countries. You complain of fees - ha! Try an Irish bank. I have my quarterly fees statement right here next to me. €10.35 for Account maintenance, 24 electronic transactions and 3 ATM withdrawals. I have taken to withdrawing my max cash ATM amount and paying cash wherever possible. I have an ANZ account that I consider expensive in terms of fees, which amounted to €4 for the quarter; my accounts with another Australian bank attract no fees whatsoever. Australian banks provide a lot of value for the fees they charge. If you think those charges are out of order, tell us where you think the services provided are better and the fees lower.
You mention Swiss banks. You want absurd fees try dealing with one of those. I asked about being able to check my balance online and they said they could provide me an electronic security device for secure login. That will be €85 Herr ******. No thanks. Rabo Bank gave me one for free. Swiss banks have a sense of supercilious entitlement and charge like wounded bulls. It's a wonder they haven't become extinct.
You think Australian bank fees of $2 B a year amount to expensive? Are you kidding? The reason Australian banks don't want to provide Apple Pay is because their transaction fees are so low and Apple is asking for the same cut they get in the US - Duh! Australian banks charge half the interbank fees US banks charge.
No such thing as monopoly on your own platform? Right, OK, so Australian banks provide the entire electronic banking infrastructure and platform in Australia so it's Ok for them to tell Apple to take a hike. Right, gotcha. "Meanwhile Commonwealth Bank's latest EFT terminal deliberately excludes
support for American Express, a clear indication that they are two faced
about such an approach." But you just said the provider of the platform... Forget it, you probably wouldn't understand.
You really are pushing it. If you use an NFC card in Australia, the transaction is tokenized, that is not an Apple invention and is not exclusive to Apple Pay. There is no security on NFC transactions under $100 because the banks are prepared to reimburse you for any fraud involving such transactions and to wear the cost because it so minuscule compared to the efficiency savings, so in terms of the security of YOUR money, there is no advantage with Apple Pay.
I feel Apple needs to look at getting in bed with Co-Operative Bank here in New Zealand, at least for a testbed with MasterCard.
It might be a small bank but it's starting to get bigger on account of it handing out dividends to shareholders. The difference is that the shareholders are the people that have money in accounts with the bank. In other words simply because I do my banking with Co-Operative Bank I am a shareholder and get paid a dividend at the end of the year.
Anti-competitive? Those three are having a laugh and a joke at their customers expense because they don't have enough competition - contactless reader technology is fairly widespread in the UK - but RFID bank cards are fundamentally insecure to walk-by scamming. I use ApplePay daily and watch people in the coffee shop queues' reaction as I use the same device for loyalty card and payment, its much faster and more secure than chip and pin, cards only come out when there's antediluvian technology in the shops or I need some cash. Why do I need to put my card in a slot? can't I have ApplePay secured cash machines. Please?
Oh spare us the BS. The coffee shop has NFC, by your own admission, so how is it quicker to use Apple Pay than wave an NFC card? Oh that's right, it isn't. Oh, that's right, you don't want to use such a card because of walk-by scamming. Care to post some examples of this actually happening and someone being left out of pocket because the bank wouldn't cover it?
Australian banks are even more profitable than their Swiss counterparts - on part because they pull stunts like this, but mostly because they have absurd fees that are significantly out of order to the services provided. This is the result from a lack of real competition.
Despite Australia's relatively small population, transaction fees were over 2 billion in 2015. Make no mistake, this is what the banks are protecting - they don't give a damn about consumers or competition. In fact they try to harm competition at every opportunity.
The suggestion that any or all providers of closed-NFC hardware must open such hardware for competitors is idiotic. There is no such thing as having a monopoly on your own platform. Meanwhile Commonwealth Bank's latest EFT terminal deliberately excludes support for American Express, a clear indication that they are two faced about such an approach.
The "modern" solutions provided by these banks are laughable and lacking in security. One such example is the Commonwealth Bank's stick-on NFC token which they advise to stick onto your smart phone. The problem here is that sales under $100 are completely pin code free, and should the phone be stolen the primary means of managing the token is taken away. Compare that to Apple Pay which requires a finger print for verification, and utilises a tokenised transaction and it's clear that the banks aren't interested in even basic protections for consumers.
This whole thread is a laugh. Boo hoo, big mean Australian banks with their terrible monopoly and no competition.
ANZ, Westpac, Commonwealth, NAB, that's all there is for a poor bank choice impoverished ausie to choose from, right? That's the usual whinge, right? Don't mention the other 339 banks, building societies, credit unions and such you could choose from, that would spoil the story, wouldn't it? A population of about 20 million and only 343 financial institutions to choose from, boo hoo, there's no competition!
The big 4 are big and stay big because they are amongst the best financial institutions available in the world. Seriously, if you think Australian banks are a rip off, move to another country and live there for a while. I currently live in Ireland and have lived in Australia. I'll take Australian banks anytime, I have accounts in both countries. You complain of fees - ha! Try an Irish bank. I have my quarterly fees statement right here next to me. €10.35 for Account maintenance, 24 electronic transactions and 3 ATM withdrawals. I have taken to withdrawing my max cash ATM amount and paying cash wherever possible. I have an ANZ account that I consider expensive in terms of fees, which amounted to €4 for the quarter; my accounts with another Australian bank attract no fees whatsoever. Australian banks provide a lot of value for the fees they charge. If you think those charges are out of order, tell us where you think the services provided are better and the fees lower.
You mention Swiss banks. You want absurd fees try dealing with one of those. I asked about being able to check my balance online and they said they could provide me an electronic security device for secure login. That will be €85 Herr ******. No thanks. Rabo Bank gave me one for free. Swiss banks have a sense of supercilious entitlement and charge like wounded bulls. It's a wonder they haven't become extinct.
You think Australian bank fees of $2 B a year amount to expensive? Are you kidding? The reason Australian banks don't want to provide Apple Pay is because their transaction fees are so low and Apple is asking for the same cut they get in the US - Duh! Australian banks charge half the interbank fees US banks charge.
No such thing as monopoly on your own platform? Right, OK, so Australian banks provide the entire electronic banking infrastructure and platform in Australia so it's Ok for them to tell Apple to take a hike. Right, gotcha. "Meanwhile Commonwealth Bank's latest EFT terminal deliberately excludes
support for American Express, a clear indication that they are two faced
about such an approach." But you just said the provider of the platform... Forget it, you probably wouldn't understand.
You really are pushing it. If you use an NFC card in Australia, the transaction is tokenized, that is not an Apple invention and is not exclusive to Apple Pay. There is no security on NFC transactions under $100 because the banks are prepared to reimburse you for any fraud involving such transactions and to wear the cost because it so minuscule compared to the efficiency savings, so in terms of the security of YOUR money, there is no advantage with Apple Pay.
actually the tokenization is not of the same as the one you have on your card, though in the future there might be cards with similar tech. Apple Pay adds another level of tokenization security. It probably isn’t an Apple invention but it I think it participated in the development with VISA and MasterCard.
It is so typical. The Australian banks have the highest fees in the world for their services. 20+% interest on average credit card in a 1.5% inflation environment! The Commonwealth bank came with profits of 8.8bln dollars and now they are complaining that Apple is fee ripper from those poor banks.
The article is inaccurate , the banks have asked to be allowed to negotiate with Apple as a block.
Normally negotiating like this would constitute cartel behavior and be illegal.
Apple can just go "here's the standard Apple Pay terms and conditions, have a nice day".
The Australian banks are on very shakey ground , if they can "force" Apple to turn a closed platform into an open platform on this, they could equally claim to force 3rd party App Stores etc.
Personally, I think they are arrogant and delusional, and will be in for a shock.
Here's a thought : what if Apple plans to get rid of Secure Element in future devices and go down a different path anchoring in secure enclave instead, with a specific SDK & API, so the banks can not just port their Android solution .
tl;dr banks want to cut out apple's percentage on each transaction.
Apple device, apple software, apple eco-system... apple can do what it wants with it's own stuff. It's not an open platform like android.
Apple can just hold out and let the Australian people complain at their banks until they concede defeat, just as happened with Barclays Bank here in the UK.
It is so typical. The Australian banks have the highest fees in the world for their services. 20+% interest on average credit card in a 1.5% inflation environment! The Commonwealth bank came with profits of 8.8bln dollars and now they are complaining that Apple is fee ripper from those poor banks.
What a Hippocracy !!!
Really?
My Australian Mastercard has an APR of 9.99% If I were to get a Mastercard with my Irish bank, the APR would be 22.7%
So Australian banks have the highest fees in the world? - only if you haven't a clue and don't actually know anything about your own country, let alone those elsewhere.
The CBA charge half the interbank fees US banks charge, yet Apple want the same fees they get from US banks, so that makes the CBA the one doing the rip-off? I will bet most CBA shareholders would disagree.
I find the idea that Australia's banking industry - notoriously corrupt and anti-consumer - is standing up for Australian's consumer rights to be hilariously brazen.
I too opened up an ANZ account just for the sake of Apple Pay. I complained to my stupid regular bank (NAB) of why they still haven't implemented Apple Pay and they said they offer something similar but for Android. Thanks but no thanks.
Its laughable that they are bitching like a bunch of p****ies with the fake pretence that its for the benefit of Australian consumers. Yea sure. Pull the other one you big idiots. I hope ANZ gets all their business frankly
Let me get this straight. Now that ANZ bank has shown itself to be profitable by using the Apple Pay 'store', everyone else wants to set up shop by putting their put their 'ATM' terminal app in Apple's 'store,' but without paying Apple for the privilege, AND by claiming all the benefits Apple claimed Apple Pay would bring, but without the other bank's help; only ANZ seeing the great benefit from the start.
If the gov't fall for this, wouldn't that like forcing a Pagan-oriented book store to carry (and sell) the materials of Abrahamic religions (Christian, Jewish, Muslim)?
Australian banks are even more profitable than their Swiss counterparts - on part because they pull stunts like this, but mostly because they have absurd fees that are significantly out of order to the services provided. This is the result from a lack of real competition.
Despite Australia's relatively small population, transaction fees were over 2 billion in 2015. Make no mistake, this is what the banks are protecting - they don't give a damn about consumers or competition. In fact they try to harm competition at every opportunity.
The suggestion that any or all providers of closed-NFC hardware must open such hardware for competitors is idiotic. There is no such thing as having a monopoly on your own platform. Meanwhile Commonwealth Bank's latest EFT terminal deliberately excludes support for American Express, a clear indication that they are two faced about such an approach.
The "modern" solutions provided by these banks are laughable and lacking in security. One such example is the Commonwealth Bank's stick-on NFC token which they advise to stick onto your smart phone. The problem here is that sales under $100 are completely pin code free, and should the phone be stolen the primary means of managing the token is taken away. Compare that to Apple Pay which requires a finger print for verification, and utilises a tokenised transaction and it's clear that the banks aren't interested in even basic protections for consumers.
You really are pushing it. If you use an NFC card in Australia, the transaction is tokenized, that is not an Apple invention and is not exclusive to Apple Pay. There is no security on NFC transactions under $100 because the banks are prepared to reimburse you for any fraud involving such transactions and to wear the cost because it so minuscule compared to the efficiency savings, so in terms of the security of YOUR money, there is no advantage with Apple Pay.
There are several advantages to Apple Pay, but someone with a simple mind like yours is more concerned with trolling than actually thinking about how these systems work. So either you're ignorant or you're a liar. Which is it?
I think what the banks really mean is Apple is so aggressively, fiercely competitive that they don’t stand a chance against Apple with their puny payment schemes. So they went crying to the government for relief.
You really are pushing it. If you use an NFC card in Australia, the transaction is tokenized, that is not an Apple invention and is not exclusive to Apple Pay. There is no security on NFC transactions under $100 because the banks are prepared to reimburse you for any fraud involving such transactions and to wear the cost because it so minuscule compared to the efficiency savings, so in terms of the security of YOUR money, there is no advantage with Apple Pay.
There are several advantages to Apple Pay, but someone with a simple mind like yours is more concerned with trolling than actually thinking about how these systems work. So either you're ignorant or you're a liar. Which is it?
Comments
ANZ, Westpac, Commonwealth, NAB, that's all there is for a poor bank choice impoverished ausie to choose from, right? That's the usual whinge, right? Don't mention the other 339 banks, building societies, credit unions and such you could choose from, that would spoil the story, wouldn't it? A population of about 20 million and only 343 financial institutions to choose from, boo hoo, there's no competition!
The big 4 are big and stay big because they are amongst the best financial institutions available in the world. Seriously, if you think Australian banks are a rip off, move to another country and live there for a while. I currently live in Ireland and have lived in Australia. I'll take Australian banks anytime, I have accounts in both countries. You complain of fees - ha! Try an Irish bank. I have my quarterly fees statement right here next to me. €10.35 for Account maintenance, 24 electronic transactions and 3 ATM withdrawals. I have taken to withdrawing my max cash ATM amount and paying cash wherever possible. I have an ANZ account that I consider expensive in terms of fees, which amounted to €4 for the quarter; my accounts with another Australian bank attract no fees whatsoever. Australian banks provide a lot of value for the fees they charge. If you think those charges are out of order, tell us where you think the services provided are better and the fees lower.
You mention Swiss banks. You want absurd fees try dealing with one of those. I asked about being able to check my balance online and they said they could provide me an electronic security device for secure login. That will be €85 Herr ******. No thanks. Rabo Bank gave me one for free. Swiss banks have a sense of supercilious entitlement and charge like wounded bulls. It's a wonder they haven't become extinct.
You think Australian bank fees of $2 B a year amount to expensive? Are you kidding? The reason Australian banks don't want to provide Apple Pay is because their transaction fees are so low and Apple is asking for the same cut they get in the US - Duh! Australian banks charge half the interbank fees US banks charge.
No such thing as monopoly on your own platform? Right, OK, so Australian banks provide the entire electronic banking infrastructure and platform in Australia so it's Ok for them to tell Apple to take a hike. Right, gotcha. "Meanwhile Commonwealth Bank's latest EFT terminal deliberately excludes support for American Express, a clear indication that they are two faced about such an approach." But you just said the provider of the platform... Forget it, you probably wouldn't understand.
You really are pushing it. If you use an NFC card in Australia, the transaction is tokenized, that is not an Apple invention and is not exclusive to Apple Pay. There is no security on NFC transactions under $100 because the banks are prepared to reimburse you for any fraud involving such transactions and to wear the cost because it so minuscule compared to the efficiency savings, so in terms of the security of YOUR money, there is no advantage with Apple Pay.
It might be a small bank but it's starting to get bigger on account of it handing out dividends to shareholders. The difference is that the shareholders are the people that have money in accounts with the bank. In other words simply because I do my banking with Co-Operative Bank I am a shareholder and get paid a dividend at the end of the year.
Co-Operative would be a perfect fit for Apple.
Apple Pay adds another level of tokenization security. It probably isn’t an Apple invention but it I think it participated in the development with VISA and MasterCard.
What a Hippocracy !!!
Normally negotiating like this would constitute cartel behavior and be illegal.
Apple can just go "here's the standard Apple Pay terms and conditions, have a nice day".
The Australian banks are on very shakey ground , if they can "force" Apple to turn a closed platform into an open platform on this, they could equally claim to force 3rd party App Stores etc.
Personally, I think they are arrogant and delusional, and will be in for a shock.
Here's a thought : what if Apple plans to get rid of Secure Element in future devices and go down a different path anchoring in secure enclave instead, with a specific SDK & API, so the banks can not just port their Android solution .
Apple device, apple software, apple eco-system... apple can do what it wants with it's own stuff. It's not an open platform like android.
Apple can just hold out and let the Australian people complain at their banks until they concede defeat, just as happened with Barclays Bank here in the UK.
My Australian Mastercard has an APR of 9.99% If I were to get a Mastercard with my Irish bank, the APR would be 22.7%
So Australian banks have the highest fees in the world? - only if you haven't a clue and don't actually know anything about your own country, let alone those elsewhere.
The CBA charge half the interbank fees US banks charge, yet Apple want the same fees they get from US banks, so that makes the CBA the one doing the rip-off? I will bet most CBA shareholders would disagree.
(hypocrisy)
Its laughable that they are bitching like a bunch of p****ies with the fake pretence that its for the benefit of Australian consumers. Yea sure. Pull the other one you big idiots. I hope ANZ gets all their business frankly
If the gov't fall for this, wouldn't that like forcing a Pagan-oriented book store to carry (and sell) the materials of Abrahamic religions (Christian, Jewish, Muslim)?
There are several advantages to Apple Pay, but someone with a simple mind like yours is more concerned with trolling than actually thinking about how these systems work. So either you're ignorant or you're a liar. Which is it?
Kill the banks!