I highly doubt the Irish government will appeal, what government would turn down 1billion euros. Apple already have a base setup and plans for further expansion - there are much bigger players in Ireland than apple and a 1billion pay off to the government will mean more than the promise of another 1000jobs for the lowly citizens.
European Union Apple Inc. sells are too important, as for any other company for that matter, Apple and Ireland have been making illegal deals for years, the process didn't start over night, yes Ireland can choose like any European Union country to leave the European Union by a people referendum, a fact that is hardly possible in the Federal United States of North America. That process will take a few years and won't change the economical treason Ireland have done. U.S.A. citizens and government should also worry why European Union is demanding Apple Inc. to pay it's fair taxes percentage and why U.S.A. IS NOT!? As shareholders, all companies shares must pay the same taxes!
Anant, the fact that they would even consider an appeal is evidence is has enforcement power behind it, correct? Otherwise it would be "we disagree and choose to ignore it". But if you cannot find more about it yourself I'll take a look and see what the current status is.
I've read (or tried to read) too many links links today that have led nowhere. So I am going to pass.
But basically, you're saying that no one has really been actually sanctioned yet. And no fine has been paid yet.
I don't think mine ever, or at least rarely, lead nowhere. No country rec'ed fines anyway. They were just ordered to recover the taxes. Those countries also realize they are bound to follow the judgements, which is why the Netherlands is appealing, tho Luxembourg also said at the time they too would likely be.
Ok, "no recovered taxes" yet. Tell me otherwise. Or else, move on, GG.
Move on? It was you asking the questions. It took Samsung a looong time to pay Apple too. It didn't meant they didn't have to did it?
Excellent sir. Anyone that is still confused about what the order is and whether it is enforceable should read it. Lots of silly shoot-from-the-hip uninformed comments and claims can then be spared
This is really an indictment on Ireland but all parties to the deal probably bear some responsibility. Apple and every other global company taking advantage of the Irish sweetheart tax deal, and there are many, must have known going in that they were getting a windfall from Ireland and that Ireland would ultimately have to contend with their EU Overlords since Ireland as an EU member is no longer a sovereign nation. Business people and especially CFOs of international companies are not stupid and know how to game the system - and they understand the risks. A fairer deal perhaps would be to split responsibility for the unpaid taxes between Ireland and participating companies since Ireland has been deemed to be a naughty child by their EU Fathers and must be spanked. Of course the EU would never allow such a thing to happen because they now own Ireland and they'd be penalizing themselves. Shame on Ireland for disobeying their masters and shame on Apple (and every other involved company) for believing that Ireland had the authority to cut its own business deals any more. Welcome to the EU.
The best outcome for all of this craziness, knowing that it will not end with Apple by any means, is a level playing field and transparency for all global business dealings. Of course this will never happen due to protectionist measures put in place by all countries with modern economies with any semblance of trading clout. Struggling economies hoping to skim from the system by offering sweetheart deals and concessions are going to have a tougher time of it going forward but I'd still expect that another non-captive country in an emerging economy is going to step in and take Ireland's place as a tax haven for doing international business with favorable tax scenarios.
Anant, the fact that they would even consider an appeal is evidence is has enforcement power behind it, correct? Otherwise it would be "we disagree and choose to ignore it". But if you cannot find more about it yourself I'll take a look and see what the current status is.
I've read (or tried to read) too many links links today that have led nowhere. So I am going to pass.
But basically, you're saying that no one has really been actually sanctioned yet. And no fine has been paid yet.
I don't think mine ever, or at least rarely, lead nowhere. No country rec'ed fines anyway. They were just ordered to recover the taxes. Those countries also realize they are bound to follow the judgements, which is why the Netherlands is appealing, tho Luxembourg also said at the time they too would likely be.
Ok, "no recovered taxes" yet. Tell me otherwise. Or else, move on, GG.
Move on? It was you asking the questions. It took Samsung a looong time to pay Apple too. It didn't meant they didn't have to did it?
It's quite strange that you don't understand the distinction between a legal decision in courts versus a decision of an executive arm of the government.
As as an aside, it is quite legitimate to ask questions when questionable claims are made. (And no, I am not going to tell you which ones -- you can infer from the questions).
I highly doubt the Irish government will appeal, what government would turn down 1billion euros. Apple already have a base setup and plans for further expansion - there are much bigger players in Ireland than apple and a 1billion pay off to the government will mean more than the promise of another 1000jobs for the lowly citizens.
According to a report in the New York Times this morning:
"The finance minister, Michael Noonan, said he would move to appeal the Apple decision, adding it was “necessary to defend the integrity of our tax system.”
“It is important that we send a strong message that Ireland remains an attractive and stable location of choice for substantive investment,” he said."
Excellent sir. Anyone that is still confused about what the order is and whether it is enforceable should read it. Lots of silly shoot-from-the-hip uninformed comments and claims can then be spared
I read that and the commission is on very weak ground. At one stage it overturns worldwide corporation law by suggesting that corporate tax be taxed where the sales are.
Then it fails to prove, by its own admission, that any special deal was agreed between Ireland and Apple. It merely says that Apple sought a tax ruling from Ireland about a loophole Apple had found, and that Irish tax authorities said that the loophole was legal. It doesn't prove a sweetheart deal, because any company in Ireland could avail of that tax loophole had they smart enough accountants (and the commission is in fact investigating Google). You can't really get away with claiming that Apple has a state aid sweetheart deal if you are investigating other companies for that same deal, which is in fact a universal tax loophole.
EU won't waste their time. If there is no cash in the EU they have no leverage. Apple could play the waiting game for decades.
Depends if Ireland wants to or not. The EU can huff and puff all they want, but ultimately can't force Ireland to do anything.
Now Ireland on the other hand, if they want that tax money paid, and Apple is holding any assents in Ireland, It's well within their power to start seizing property, garnishing wages and arresting (local) executives for unpaid taxes. The US-based tax office doesn't have nearly the same power that IR does. The 3-year investigation has concluded and that payment with interest will probably be due soon.
Excellent sir. Anyone that is still confused about what the order is and whether it is enforceable should read it. Lots of silly shoot-from-the-hip uninformed comments and claims can then be spared
I read that and the commission is on very weak ground. At one stage it overturns worldwide corporation law by suggesting that corporate tax be taxed where the sales are.
Spot on. This is at fundamental variance with how US taxes companies, which is based on their worldwide income (as opposed to the territorial system in the EU). This is setting up for a major cross-border fight.
Man, lots of unaffected little people getting butthurt and irate by damage to Apple, a multi billion dollar mega corporation, and making shit up about laws they don't understand.
The law was clear, Ireland and Apple violated, and now they have to backpay. It's really that simple. They got off lightly; the system is rigged in these cases so that the punishment is always less than the crime, Ireland and Apple's effective tax rate is still appallingly low.
The EU is sticking around, no matter how many crazy alt-right yanks claim otherwise, and for the most part its laws are good ones.
Good outcome. The amount seems a little low, but I haven't done the math and I have no inclination to do so, so I'll trust it.
tell me the law that Apple broke.
AND BE SPECIFIC. DON'T JUST SAY THEY BROKE A LAW OR PAID TOO LITTLE.
The Treaty of Lisbon, new article numbering Title VII Article 101 through 106. Like any law, it's not black and white, it's rather gray and lawyers from both sides argue opposing cases citing the same passages. The argument is that Ireland willfully allowed Apple an unfair corporate advantage by providing a less than 1% (Effectively, 0.005%) corporate tax rate.
The important distinction is that it's not Apple that directly broke the law, it's Ireland. However, just as if your employer were to willfully allow you to not pay tax, you are still liable if caught.
Man, lots of unaffected little people getting butthurt and irate by damage to Apple, a multi billion dollar mega corporation, and making shit up about laws they don't understand.
The law was clear, Ireland and Apple violated, and now they have to backpay. It's really that simple. They got off lightly; the system is rigged in these cases so that the punishment is always less than the crime, Ireland and Apple's effective tax rate is still appallingly low.
The EU is sticking around, no matter how many crazy alt-right yanks claim otherwise, and for the most part its laws are good ones.
Good outcome. The amount seems a little low, but I haven't done the math and I have no inclination to do so, so I'll trust it.
tell me the law that Apple broke.
AND BE SPECIFIC. DON'T JUST SAY THEY BROKE A LAW OR PAID TOO LITTLE.
The Treaty of Lisbon, new article numbering Title VII Article 101 through 106. Like any law, it's not black and white, it's rather gray and lawyers from both sides argue opposing cases citing the same passages. The argument is that Ireland willfully allowed Apple an unfair corporate advantage by providing a less than 1% (Effectively, 0.005%) corporate tax rate.
The important distinction is that it's not Apple that directly broke the law, it's Ireland. However, just as if your employer were to willfully allow you to not pay tax, you are still liable if caught.
The EU has no competency on member states' specific corporation tax laws, whether nominal or de facto. Ireland can legally tax at 0%. Which is why they went down the "state aid" road, suggesting that there was a deal between Apple and Ireland, but nothing in the report indicates that other companies domiciled in Ireland could not have used this same loophole.
Excellent sir. Anyone that is still confused about what the order is and whether it is enforceable should read it. Lots of silly shoot-from-the-hip uninformed comments and claims can then be spared
I read that and the commission is on very weak ground. At one stage it overturns worldwide corporation law by suggesting that corporate tax be taxed where the sales are.
Spot on. This is at fundamental variance with how US taxes companies, which is based on their worldwide income (as opposed to the territorial system in the EU). This is setting up for a major cross-border fight.
When did the US send Apple a tax bill based on it's worldwide income? When did Apple actually PAY taxes based on it's worldwide revenue? That's the essence of the entire situation isn't it? They haven't paid taxes on 10's of $Billions in profits in either the countries in which they incorporated or the countries where the revenue was earned according to available facts. And no Apple is not the only one, so they are not being singled out. As the world's and richest company the numbers are just bigger and as an Apple-centric fan site it gets magnified here.
Personally I have no huge issues with a massively profitable multinational like Google or Microsoft or Exxon or yes Apple paying taxes on their profits just as less-well-heeled and smaller companies do, Particularly so as it at least leaves open the possibility of lower personal taxes on the common man, and maybe even public debt being reduced. I don't know why you seem so eager to favor the richest over the regular guy. In Apple's case specifically they would suffer ZERO harm. Take $14B away and they still have more cash in the bank than any company on the planet, more than most countries even, and still the world's richest.
Now with that out of the way I too have questions about the ability of the EU stepping in where no one else does. It may end up as dismissed. It may not. I doubt you will be as up in arms about EU overstepping when Google gets fined 10% of it's WORLDWIDE revenue to settle a EUROPEAN issue, a similar right claimed by the Commission.
But the individual countries EU will not let the big companies off the hook so readily anymore. They won't be able to. It will also force a worldwide conversation about corporate tax responsibilities and rules, a talk that's long past due IMO.
Did The Netherlands appeal? And, did such clawback actually happen?
Anant, the fact that they would even consider an appeal is evidence is has enforcement power behind it, correct? Otherwise it would be "we disagree and choose to ignore it". But if you cannot find more about it yourself I'll take a look and see what the current status is.
I've read (or tried to read) too many links links today that have led nowhere. So I am going to pass.
But basically, you're saying that no one has really been actually sanctioned yet. And no fine has been paid yet. This is not even accounting for the fact that US government hasn't got into the game yet.
Much as as people here might hyperventilate, curse, or yell otherwise, @sog35 is basically right. Nothing much will come of it anytime soon. If it does, it'll be some wrist-slap. We'll have to wait and see, won't we?
SOG35 was basically wrong. I think the EU commission have spent an awful long time on this case precisely to make sure they have got it right, I doubt there will be legal grounds for a court to find they were wrong, so there won't be any 'deals' or wrist slaps allowed, otherwise the EU competition authority might as well shut down for all the authority it would have going forward.
Did The Netherlands appeal? And, did such clawback actually happen?
Anant, the fact that they would even consider an appeal is evidence is has enforcement power behind it, correct? Otherwise it would be "we disagree and choose to ignore it". But if you cannot find more about it yourself I'll take a look and see what the current status is.
I've read (or tried to read) too many links links today that have led nowhere. So I am going to pass.
But basically, you're saying that no one has really been actually sanctioned yet. And no fine has been paid yet. This is not even accounting for the fact that US government hasn't got into the game yet.
Much as as people here might hyperventilate, curse, or yell otherwise, @sog35 is basically right. Nothing much will come of it anytime soon. If it does, it'll be some wrist-slap. We'll have to wait and see, won't we?
SOG35 was basically wrong. I think the EU commission have spent an awful long time on this case precisely to make sure they have got it right, I doubt there will be legal grounds for a court to find they were wrong, so there won't be any 'deals' or wrist slaps allowed, otherwise the EU competition authority might as well shut down for all the authority it would have going forward.
So you are basically saying Tim Cook lied. You are saying Apple did get a special deal from the Irish government that no one else could get.
"The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." Tim Cook
Sorry, but I'm going to take Tim Cook's word on this instead of some mindless Bureaucrat.
To be fair Tim is unlikely to come out and say "It's a fair cop guvnor. We basically screwed the tax system to get more money than we should". Simple principle is you don't admit liability in law unless it means you escape with a lesser punishment.
Though I'd better someone in their tax/finance department is having a very bad day today.
Man, lots of unaffected little people getting butthurt and irate by damage to Apple, a multi billion dollar mega corporation, and making shit up about laws they don't understand.
The law was clear, Ireland and Apple violated, and now they have to backpay. It's really that simple. They got off lightly; the system is rigged in these cases so that the punishment is always less than the crime, Ireland and Apple's effective tax rate is still appallingly low.
The EU is sticking around, no matter how many crazy alt-right yanks claim otherwise, and for the most part its laws are good ones.
Good outcome. The amount seems a little low, but I haven't done the math and I have no inclination to do so, so I'll trust it.
tell me the law that Apple broke.
AND BE SPECIFIC. DON'T JUST SAY THEY BROKE A LAW OR PAID TOO LITTLE.
The Treaty of Lisbon, new article numbering Title VII Article 101 through 106. Like any law, it's not black and white, it's rather gray and lawyers from both sides argue opposing cases citing the same passages. The argument is that Ireland willfully allowed Apple an unfair corporate advantage by providing a less than 1% (Effectively, 0.005%) corporate tax rate.
The important distinction is that it's not Apple that directly broke the law, it's Ireland. However, just as if your employer were to willfully allow you to not pay tax, you are still liable if caught.
sorry but any other foreign corporation in Ireland could have done the EXACT same thing as Apple. Thus no unfair corporate advantage.
You need read up more on the case, you look ignorant.
Sog, IMO you are far from being well-read on this based on your comments. Look into the 1980 tax arrangement Apple made with a then-Irish Tax Agency executive. Examine how critical that old agreement (prohibited since back in the 80's as a condition of Ireland being accepted into the European Economic Community) to the existence of Apple post-1997 tax avoidance structure, which itself has been reworked since this all came to light in 2014. Such an arrangement could not have been created in the past decade or more under the rules in place. Without that old 1980 agreement we'd be discussing Singapore instead of Ireland according to reports, albeit at not quite as attractive tax rates. Good ones, but not zero. At least that what I'm reading.
Comments
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-2923_en.htm
original letter to Ireland that explains the case in more detail
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/state_aid/cases/253200/253200_1582634_87_2.pdf
The best outcome for all of this craziness, knowing that it will not end with Apple by any means, is a level playing field and transparency for all global business dealings. Of course this will never happen due to protectionist measures put in place by all countries with modern economies with any semblance of trading clout. Struggling economies hoping to skim from the system by offering sweetheart deals and concessions are going to have a tougher time of it going forward but I'd still expect that another non-captive country in an emerging economy is going to step in and take Ireland's place as a tax haven for doing international business with favorable tax scenarios.
As as an aside, it is quite legitimate to ask questions when questionable claims are made. (And no, I am not going to tell you which ones -- you can infer from the questions).
"The finance minister, Michael Noonan, said he would move to appeal the Apple decision, adding it was “necessary to defend the integrity of our tax system.”
“It is important that we send a strong message that Ireland remains an attractive and stable location of choice for substantive investment,” he said."
Then it fails to prove, by its own admission, that any special deal was agreed between Ireland and Apple. It merely says that Apple sought a tax ruling from Ireland about a loophole Apple had found, and that Irish tax authorities said that the loophole was legal. It doesn't prove a sweetheart deal, because any company in Ireland could avail of that tax loophole had they smart enough accountants (and the commission is in fact investigating Google). You can't really get away with claiming that Apple has a state aid sweetheart deal if you are investigating other companies for that same deal, which is in fact a universal tax loophole.
Now Ireland on the other hand, if they want that tax money paid, and Apple is holding any assents in Ireland, It's well within their power to start seizing property, garnishing wages and arresting (local) executives for unpaid taxes. The US-based tax office doesn't have nearly the same power that IR does. The 3-year investigation has concluded and that payment with interest will probably be due soon.
The Treaty of Lisbon, new article numbering Title VII Article 101 through 106. Like any law, it's not black and white, it's rather gray and lawyers from both sides argue opposing cases citing the same passages. The argument is that Ireland willfully allowed Apple an unfair corporate advantage by providing a less than 1% (Effectively, 0.005%) corporate tax rate.
The important distinction is that it's not Apple that directly broke the law, it's Ireland. However, just as if your employer were to willfully allow you to not pay tax, you are still liable if caught.
Personally I have no huge issues with a massively profitable multinational like Google or Microsoft or Exxon or yes Apple paying taxes on their profits just as less-well-heeled and smaller companies do, Particularly so as it at least leaves open the possibility of lower personal taxes on the common man, and maybe even public debt being reduced. I don't know why you seem so eager to favor the richest over the regular guy. In Apple's case specifically they would suffer ZERO harm. Take $14B away and they still have more cash in the bank than any company on the planet, more than most countries even, and still the world's richest.
Now with that out of the way I too have questions about the ability of the EU stepping in where no one else does. It may end up as dismissed. It may not. I doubt you will be as up in arms about EU overstepping when Google gets fined 10% of it's WORLDWIDE revenue to settle a EUROPEAN issue, a similar right claimed by the Commission.
But the individual countries EU will not let the big companies off the hook so readily anymore. They won't be able to. It will also force a worldwide conversation about corporate tax responsibilities and rules, a talk that's long past due IMO.
"It's a fair cop guvnor. We basically screwed the tax system to get more money than we should".
Simple principle is you don't admit liability in law unless it means you escape with a lesser punishment.
Though I'd better someone in their tax/finance department is having a very bad day today.