Well,what I would like to see and what Apple will do are two different things. Probably the understatement of the year!
As far as putting one in a Mac, Apples ARM chips are already good enough for the Mac Book. ... So so what do I think, I think I would love to see an ARM based laptop from Apple. Done well I could see a bunch of Linux based ARM machines coming on the market to compete. Now will Apple do this, good question, I'm obviously hopeful! As for the referenced article well it could very well be what they claim but it could also be an indication that they want users to download optimized solutions for all for the currently supported architectures. The tool chains for ARM and i86 are closely linked the entries we see might just be there for completeness.
First, let me say that all this technical discussion on the chips is why I come to these forums, this thread is filled with fantastic information and discussion, thanks for sharing and participating!
My question has to do with ARM on laptops, it's something I think none would be surprised to see from Apple at some point, but what I never see is any discussion around the merits of not running macOS on an ARM laptop, but instead a variant of iOS. iOS has a much larger install base, and I would assume a much larger developer community. There is already a non-touch version of iOS in Apple ARM devices (tvOS), so I would assume turning the OS into a proper non-touch OS such that it could be run on a laptop is probably not a lot of work on Apple's part. From a business perspective doesn't this make more sense than porting macOS to ARM and losing what everyone always decries when it's suggested (macOS on ARM) with their "what about Windows?!" concerns, plus also the porting of all existing apps is not a trivial affair as we've already been through a decade ago. How many people would jump ship from Apple laptop/desktops, and would that be offset by new entrants to their user base with macOS on ARM?
I guess Apple would be asking themselves how many more laptops (and desktops) could they sell with macOS on ARM, and would that be more or less than those same laptops and desktops running a non-touch iOS? It seems to me that people who don't normally buy laptops or desktops from Apple but have one or more iDevices already would be prime candidates for these new machines, and that's a HUGE base from which to draw future sales.
Keeping Intel chips on some laptops and desktops would allow them to continue selling more expensive hardware to niche users, those with higher computing needs and special use cases, and not piss off the current install base or developer community or Intel itself, plus it would allow them to pursue an entirely new path of users with ARM chips in new devices, expanding that base and developer community (this seems a very important factor!). Doesn't this seem a more logical path to take?
Putting macOS on ARM another point people bring up immediately is, "macOS on an iPad." This is a fair question, but what makes more sense: macOS on iPad or (non-touch) iOS on laptop/desktop? iOS has matured so much in the past few years, they keep pushing this as more than a "toy OS" and there is less and less that separates it from a desktop/laptop OS each iteration, creating another variant of the OS to run in a non-touch environment just seems a logical extension, especially when one considers they've already done it at least partially and it's been in market for a year now. Which would you prefer? I know which one excites me more (both are interesting of course). Which do you think is more likely?
Wizard69 stated above "Long term, i86 is pretty dead", which I agree with. In my mind, Apple will keep x86 compatibility until it doesn't make any sense to, but at the same time, Apple will be delivering iOS products that encroach on the Mac product line.
The first of these products would likely be an iOS Book, in the same form factor as the Mac Book, but with a Lightning port in lieu of the USB Type C connector, although there would be a good case for having both ports. This would be yet another incentive for developers to create more productivity apps for iOS. I suspect that the iOS Book would work with the rumored 5K TB 3 monitor, but it would just be in mirror mode, not GPU accelerated for iOS. As an aside, I don't think there is any case to be made for a Mac Mini analog with ARM and iOS.
This product would be fine for those who have little need of x86 software solutions, and Mac's would still be available for everyone else. That might be a pretty decent niche to create a product for, and would encourage developers to provide more and better productivity solutions either cloud based or "clones" of existing x86 apps. The benefit of this is that Apple can reduce the Windows footprint, and at the same time leverage its existing ARM experience and supply chain for an alternate to x86 hardware.
Well,what I would like to see and what Apple will do are two different things. Probably the understatement of the year!
As far as putting one in a Mac, Apples ARM chips are already good enough for the Mac Book. ... So so what do I think, I think I would love to see an ARM based laptop from Apple. Done well I could see a bunch of Linux based ARM machines coming on the market to compete. Now will Apple do this, good question, I'm obviously hopeful! As for the referenced article well it could very well be what they claim but it could also be an indication that they want users to download optimized solutions for all for the currently supported architectures. The tool chains for ARM and i86 are closely linked the entries we see might just be there for completeness.
First, let me say that all this technical discussion on the chips is why I come to these forums, this thread is filled with fantastic information and discussion, thanks for sharing and participating!
My question has to do with ARM on laptops, it's something I think none would be surprised to see from Apple at some point, but what I never see is any discussion around the merits of not running macOS on an ARM laptop, but instead a variant of iOS. iOS has a much larger install base, and I would assume a much larger developer community. There is already a non-touch version of iOS in Apple ARM devices (tvOS), so I would assume turning the OS into a proper non-touch OS such that it could be run on a laptop is probably not a lot of work on Apple's part. From a business perspective doesn't this make more sense than porting macOS to ARM and losing what everyone always decries when it's suggested (macOS on ARM) with their "what about Windows?!" concerns, plus also the porting of all existing apps is not a trivial affair as we've already been through a decade ago. How many people would jump ship from Apple laptop/desktops, and would that be offset by new entrants to their user base with macOS on ARM?
I guess Apple would be asking themselves how many more laptops (and desktops) could they sell with macOS on ARM, and would that be more or less than those same laptops and desktops running a non-touch iOS? It seems to me that people who don't normally buy laptops or desktops from Apple but have one or more iDevices already would be prime candidates for these new machines, and that's a HUGE base from which to draw future sales.
Keeping Intel chips on some laptops and desktops would allow them to continue selling more expensive hardware to niche users, those with higher computing needs and special use cases, and not piss off the current install base or developer community or Intel itself, plus it would allow them to pursue an entirely new path of users with ARM chips in new devices, expanding that base and developer community (this seems a very important factor!). Doesn't this seem a more logical path to take?
Putting macOS on ARM another point people bring up immediately is, "macOS on an iPad." This is a fair question, but what makes more sense: macOS on iPad or (non-touch) iOS on laptop/desktop? iOS has matured so much in the past few years, they keep pushing this as more than a "toy OS" and there is less and less that separates it from a desktop/laptop OS each iteration, creating another variant of the OS to run in a non-touch environment just seems a logical extension, especially when one considers they've already done it at least partially and it's been in market for a year now. Which would you prefer? I know which one excites me more (both are interesting of course). Which do you think is more likely?
Excellent reply & discuss by both you and wizard69! Regarding your suggestion of Apple doing a non-touch version of iOS on a laptop / desktop - if they did that, they wouldn't be that far away from doing a "2-in-1" (as opposed to having a separate iPad & laptop line). The only difference being that Apple's version, being based off of iOS, wouldn't run desktop apps but that wouldn't matter considering the target audience. There's 2 ways Apple could go about it:
1. Adding KB / mouse capability to iOS would allow the iPad Pro to dynamically optimize the UI (touch or non-touch) based on if you have a KB attached (or not). This would be similar to MS' Surface Pro Continuum feature
Just my 2 cents. Again, excellent discussion all around.
Point 1 of yours, this is where things get really interesting, I see the parallels strongly to Continuum when you look at the Smart Connector. That port could be the pathway to docking an iDevice and having it immediately be connected to a larger monitor, trackpad and keyboard and the OS would detect this and immediately go to non-touch (for the external monitor anyway, as for the iDevice itself, it could serve as the trackpad if it were iPhone size, or it could be the source of the mirror to the external monitor, or it could be something else entirely, or simply shut off). Apple doing something along the line of Continuum (which is actually a very interesting feature), I'd love to see, mostly because it'd be a more elegant solution than Microsoft's implementation (because, well, it's Apple), and I can totally imagine how useful it'd be. You'd only need your phone as your only computer, and when you're at home you dock it and connect it to a larger monitor, keyboard and trackpad and have access to the convenience of those items, but it'd run the same apps, just in different orientation when disconnected and in your hand as a phone sized device. But, the main point is: one computer, your main one fits in your pocket and is powerful enough to do it all, when you need more, it's peripherals to which you connect - the world could be filled with monitors/keyboards/trackpads ready to dock your phone. Very cool.
Point 2 - also very cool. I used to think that a hybrid iOS/macOS laptop would be the bee's knees (whatever those are<grin>), but today I think the ideal hybrid would run only iOS, just non-touch when connected to keyboard, and touch when disconnected.
I just think iOS is maturing so beautifully and with the chips blowing expectations each iteration, much to I think all our collective amazement, those two together really could displace computing as we've been doing it with laptops and desktops the past couple of decades. That's not to say an ARM device running macOS is not appealing, I'm sure it could be as well, but I just have to wonder whether that's the future, or whether Apple believes iOS is where they'd rather take things. Very exciting regardless.
Well,what I would like to see and what Apple will do are two different things. Probably the understatement of the year!
As far as putting one in a Mac, Apples ARM chips are already good enough for the Mac Book. ... So so what do I think, I think I would love to see an ARM based laptop from Apple. Done well I could see a bunch of Linux based ARM machines coming on the market to compete. Now will Apple do this, good question, I'm obviously hopeful! As for the referenced article well it could very well be what they claim but it could also be an indication that they want users to download optimized solutions for all for the currently supported architectures. The tool chains for ARM and i86 are closely linked the entries we see might just be there for completeness.
First, let me say that all this technical discussion on the chips is why I come to these forums, this thread is filled with fantastic information and discussion, thanks for sharing and participating!
My question has to do with ARM on laptops, it's something I think none would be surprised to see from Apple at some point, but what I never see is any discussion around the merits of not running macOS on an ARM laptop, but instead a variant of iOS. iOS has a much larger install base, and I would assume a much larger developer community. There is already a non-touch version of iOS in Apple ARM devices (tvOS), so I would assume turning the OS into a proper non-touch OS such that it could be run on a laptop is probably not a lot of work on Apple's part. From a business perspective doesn't this make more sense than porting macOS to ARM and losing what everyone always decries when it's suggested (macOS on ARM) with their "what about Windows?!" concerns, plus also the porting of all existing apps is not a trivial affair as we've already been through a decade ago. How many people would jump ship from Apple laptop/desktops, and would that be offset by new entrants to their user base with macOS on ARM?
I guess Apple would be asking themselves how many more laptops (and desktops) could they sell with macOS on ARM, and would that be more or less than those same laptops and desktops running a non-touch iOS? It seems to me that people who don't normally buy laptops or desktops from Apple but have one or more iDevices already would be prime candidates for these new machines, and that's a HUGE base from which to draw future sales.
Keeping Intel chips on some laptops and desktops would allow them to continue selling more expensive hardware to niche users, those with higher computing needs and special use cases, and not piss off the current install base or developer community or Intel itself, plus it would allow them to pursue an entirely new path of users with ARM chips in new devices, expanding that base and developer community (this seems a very important factor!). Doesn't this seem a more logical path to take?
Putting macOS on ARM another point people bring up immediately is, "macOS on an iPad." This is a fair question, but what makes more sense: macOS on iPad or (non-touch) iOS on laptop/desktop? iOS has matured so much in the past few years, they keep pushing this as more than a "toy OS" and there is less and less that separates it from a desktop/laptop OS each iteration, creating another variant of the OS to run in a non-touch environment just seems a logical extension, especially when one considers they've already done it at least partially and it's been in market for a year now. Which would you prefer? I know which one excites me more (both are interesting of course). Which do you think is more likely?
Wizard69 stated above "Long term, i86 is pretty dead", which I agree with. In my mind, Apple will keep x86 compatibility until it doesn't make any sense to, but at the same time, Apple will be delivering iOS products that encroach on the Mac product line.
The first of these products would likely be an iOS Book, in the same form factor as the Mac Book, but with a Lightning port in lieu of the USB Type C connector, although there would be a good case for having both ports. This would be yet another incentive for developers to create more productivity apps for iOS. I suspect that the iOS Book would work with the rumored 5K TB 3 monitor, but it would just be in mirror mode, not GPU accelerated for iOS. As an aside, I don't think there is any case to be made for a Mac Mini analog with ARM and iOS.
This product would be fine for those who have little need of x86 software solutions, and Mac's would still be available for everyone else. That might be a pretty decent niche to create a product for, and would encourage developers to provide more and better productivity solutions either cloud based or "clones" of existing x86 apps. The benefit of this is that Apple can reduce the Windows footprint, and at the same time leverage its existing ARM experience and supply chain for an alternate to x86 hardware.
Re: productivity apps on iOS, yes! It will hurt iOS and Apple not one bit if iOS and future devices facilitate more productivity usage, I'm sure developers will very willingly step up to the challenge and provide more and more of such apps, which will only serve to displace our dependence Intel based desktop operating systems (I imagine this is Intel's nightmare scenario). I love the idea of an iOS Book, and I agree with you about an ARM Mac Mini, we actually sort of already have that, when you think about how different it would be from (or similar to) an Apple TV, I can't see it happening. For the time being, I'm absolutely happy with that, my next home computer I want is an Intel Mac Mini (hoping they update it soon, waiting, waiting, waiting for that moment). But, I could totally imagine that computer (Intel Mac Mini) would be my last Intel computer ever, that Apple's ARM devices will easily quite soon replace all Intel devices I own and ever would own again. Can't wait to see how this future unfolds.
TSMC is substantially ahead of Intel. It makes little sense for Apple to remain tied to Intel for their CPUs. It would be easy to see how iOS takes over many of the tasks of OS X/Mac OS. For portable computing and that includes high end laptops with Intel chips, there will be little performance wise that will be competitive with the upcoming A10X. It will be interesting to see how much DRAM Apple includes with the upcoming iPad Pro.
And TSMC has an aggressive roadmap.
The key is that their chip are capable of being produced in large numbers at good yields on the state of the art nodes. Intel has had considerable difficulties with their own yields at 14 nm FF.
I find it interesting that the Intel modem in the iPhone 7 is manufactured on TSMC's 28 nm process. The QCOM modem is manufactured on a more advanced 20 nm process. With QCOM's new partnership with Samsung, I expect that to change in the future. Samsung will not be able to compete going forward either with all of their problems with the Note 7.
Apple with TSMC is going to move into the dominant position in CPU design and manufacturing. And with that dominance, they can leverage their position into taking control of a number of technologies, including the cloud and AI.
Intel's x86 and Microsoft's dependence upon it are headed for irrelevance. It is not hard to imagine Apple's top of the line A series chip one day in the near future, within just a few years, as being performance competitive with Intel's Xeon line.
Intel had to get into the iPhone to remain relevant. They will at least survive and can still thrive. Modems will be a very big business going forward. Especially once Apple works things out sufficiently to include one in the Watch. However, the x86 line is coming to the end of the road. I am not even certain that building x86 emulation for ARM even makes sense.
The following link outlines the TSMC roadmap. And it doesn't look good for anyone else. Not Samsung, not Intel and not Global Foundries.
Comments
The first of these products would likely be an iOS Book, in the same form factor as the Mac Book, but with a Lightning port in lieu of the USB Type C connector, although there would be a good case for having both ports. This would be yet another incentive for developers to create more productivity apps for iOS. I suspect that the iOS Book would work with the rumored 5K TB 3 monitor, but it would just be in mirror mode, not GPU accelerated for iOS. As an aside, I don't think there is any case to be made for a Mac Mini analog with ARM and iOS.
This product would be fine for those who have little need of x86 software solutions, and Mac's would still be available for everyone else. That might be a pretty decent niche to create a product for, and would encourage developers to provide more and better productivity solutions either cloud based or "clones" of existing x86 apps. The benefit of this is that Apple can reduce the Windows footprint, and at the same time leverage its existing ARM experience and supply chain for an alternate to x86 hardware.
Point 2 - also very cool. I used to think that a hybrid iOS/macOS laptop would be the bee's knees (whatever those are<grin>), but today I think the ideal hybrid would run only iOS, just non-touch when connected to keyboard, and touch when disconnected.
I just think iOS is maturing so beautifully and with the chips blowing expectations each iteration, much to I think all our collective amazement, those two together really could displace computing as we've been doing it with laptops and desktops the past couple of decades. That's not to say an ARM device running macOS is not appealing, I'm sure it could be as well, but I just have to wonder whether that's the future, or whether Apple believes iOS is where they'd rather take things. Very exciting regardless.
And TSMC has an aggressive roadmap.
The key is that their chip are capable of being produced in large numbers at good yields on the state of the art nodes. Intel has had considerable difficulties with their own yields at 14 nm FF.
I find it interesting that the Intel modem in the iPhone 7 is manufactured on TSMC's 28 nm process. The QCOM modem is manufactured on a more advanced 20 nm process. With QCOM's new partnership with Samsung, I expect that to change in the future. Samsung will not be able to compete going forward either with all of their problems with the Note 7.
Apple with TSMC is going to move into the dominant position in CPU design and manufacturing. And with that dominance, they can leverage their position into taking control of a number of technologies, including the cloud and AI.
Intel's x86 and Microsoft's dependence upon it are headed for irrelevance. It is not hard to imagine Apple's top of the line A series chip one day in the near future, within just a few years, as being performance competitive with Intel's Xeon line.
Intel had to get into the iPhone to remain relevant. They will at least survive and can still thrive. Modems will be a very big business going forward. Especially once Apple works things out sufficiently to include one in the Watch. However, the x86 line is coming to the end of the road. I am not even certain that building x86 emulation for ARM even makes sense.
The following link outlines the TSMC roadmap. And it doesn't look good for anyone else. Not Samsung, not Intel and not Global Foundries.
https://www.semiwiki.com/forum/content/6240-will-tsmc-alone-10nm-7nm.html