Apple invention uses ferrofluids to enhance induction charging performance

2»

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 36
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member

    Soli said:
    mike1 said:
    I also wonder if anybody has tested the effect of micro-charges on the overall health and lifetime of a battery. What happens if you if you place the phone on a charging mat at say 15% battery charge, leave it on there for 10 minutes, pick it up to make a call for 5 minutes, put it back for 2 minutes, pick it up to do some e-mail. Maybe the battery bounces between 20% and 30% charge all day. Then do this every day. Unless something has changed in battery tech, which I don't think has happened, I see this use pattern seriously degrading the max life of a fully charged battery.
    I don't know of any permanent damage that will happen. The cells wear down based on usage, and whether you're using, say, 50% in a day with spot charging in between usage or between charging, it's still one-half of the battery cells being charged and uncharged in a given day. Since Apple uses a battery chemistry that is rated for 1000 charges before the battery holds 80% of its original capacity, that would be 2,000 or nearly 5.5 years before you'd reach that point. You might need to calibrate the battery, but I'm not sold on how effective that rigamarole really is.
    I basically agree. But Apple does recommend that occasionally, you should run the battery down and charge it fully.
    baconstang
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 22 of 36
    Solisoli Posts: 10,038member
    melgross said:

    Soli said:
    mike1 said:
    I also wonder if anybody has tested the effect of micro-charges on the overall health and lifetime of a battery. What happens if you if you place the phone on a charging mat at say 15% battery charge, leave it on there for 10 minutes, pick it up to make a call for 5 minutes, put it back for 2 minutes, pick it up to do some e-mail. Maybe the battery bounces between 20% and 30% charge all day. Then do this every day. Unless something has changed in battery tech, which I don't think has happened, I see this use pattern seriously degrading the max life of a fully charged battery.
    I don't know of any permanent damage that will happen. The cells wear down based on usage, and whether you're using, say, 50% in a day with spot charging in between usage or between charging, it's still one-half of the battery cells being charged and uncharged in a given day. Since Apple uses a battery chemistry that is rated for 1000 charges before the battery holds 80% of its original capacity, that would be 2,000 or nearly 5.5 years before you'd reach that point. You might need to calibrate the battery, but I'm not sold on how effective that rigamarole really is.
    I basically agree. But Apple does recommend that occasionally, you should run the battery down and charge it fully.
    But that's just calibrating or refreshing the battery. I'm not aware of any evidence that it will cause the physical battery to degrade improperly if you use the battery capacity in different ways within a set percentage of use.

    I can't seem to find Apple's documentation, but here's a decent write up.
    edited October 2016
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 23 of 36
    jdgazjdgaz Posts: 408member
    I just want to carry less charging devices when I travel. Phone, watch, laptop, iPad, bluetooth speaker.
    randominternetperson
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 24 of 36
    ireland said:
    Clever. Notice the iPod classic.

    Yeah, the "Persistance of Memory" version.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Persistence_of_Memory
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 25 of 36
    boredumb said:
    Soli said:
    boredumb said:
    As long as the unit you set your device on has to be plugged in, you aren't really "wireless",
    and you're still confined to a certain radius based on that cord length anyway…
    1) You don't consdier a wireless router wireless because the router has to be plugged in, not to mention the devices which connect to your WiFi network need to be powered at some point?

    2) What power option wouldn't be confined to a radius?
    1) I don't have to set my laptop on my router - I can roam all around my home with it (or at any McDonald's or Starbucks, etc, whoopee!) effectively extending its convenience beyond any considerations of 'cord'...
    2) effectively, solar - just kidding, 'none' is the answer, which is why I'm asking, why get all excited about inductive charging, when you're still effectively tied to that base?

    I agree.  "Wireless" is a bit of a misnomer.  It's really just "plugless,"  To me, wireless would be like WiFi or Bluetooth--charging while I wander around.  To me that's the connotation of "wireless charging."
    watto_cobra
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 26 of 36
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Soli said:
    melgross said:

    Soli said:
    mike1 said:
    I also wonder if anybody has tested the effect of micro-charges on the overall health and lifetime of a battery. What happens if you if you place the phone on a charging mat at say 15% battery charge, leave it on there for 10 minutes, pick it up to make a call for 5 minutes, put it back for 2 minutes, pick it up to do some e-mail. Maybe the battery bounces between 20% and 30% charge all day. Then do this every day. Unless something has changed in battery tech, which I don't think has happened, I see this use pattern seriously degrading the max life of a fully charged battery.
    I don't know of any permanent damage that will happen. The cells wear down based on usage, and whether you're using, say, 50% in a day with spot charging in between usage or between charging, it's still one-half of the battery cells being charged and uncharged in a given day. Since Apple uses a battery chemistry that is rated for 1000 charges before the battery holds 80% of its original capacity, that would be 2,000 or nearly 5.5 years before you'd reach that point. You might need to calibrate the battery, but I'm not sold on how effective that rigamarole really is.
    I basically agree. But Apple does recommend that occasionally, you should run the battery down and charge it fully.
    But that's just calibrating or refreshing the battery. I'm not aware of any evidence that it will cause the physical battery to degrade improperly if you use the battery capacity in different ways within a set percentage of use.

    I can't seem to find Apple's documentation, but here's a decent write up.
    It is supposed to enable a full charge. For whatever reason, apparently if it isn't done, every so often, you might not be able to fully charge it. It's recommended for all of Apple's devices. I've never had a problem with Apple's batteries. But my daughter did with her 3GS, way back. The battery expanded so much the plastic case in the back cracked. I've still got that one around.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 27 of 36
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    mike1 said:
    boredumb said:
    Can someone help me see the efficacy of this entire technology?
    As long as the unit you set your device on has to be plugged in, you aren't really "wireless",
    and you're still confined to a certain radius based on that cord length anyway...
    So, are the economies of space gained by removing the lightning or whatever connector from the equation,
    really not counterbalanced by whatever internal receptors receive and convey the charge?
    Or is the only real difference and benefit, closing that portal to incursion of moisture & dust?
    I also wonder if anybody has tested the effect of micro-charges on the overall health and lifetime of a battery. What happens if you if you place the phone on a charging mat at say 15% battery charge, leave it on there for 10 minutes, pick it up to make a call for 5 minutes, put it back for 2 minutes, pick it up to do some e-mail. Maybe the battery bounces between 20% and 30% charge all day. Then do this every day. Unless something has changed in battery tech, which I don't think has happened, I see this use pattern seriously degrading the max life of a fully charged battery.
    you don't think the engineers and manufacturers of this stuff have thought about the things you're thinking about? 
    edited October 2016
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 28 of 36
    Solisoli Posts: 10,038member
    melgross said:
    It is supposed to enable a full charge. For whatever reason, apparently if it isn't done, every so often, you might not be able to fully charge it. It's recommended for all of Apple's devices. I've never had a problem with Apple's batteries. But my daughter did with her 3GS, way back. The battery expanded so much the plastic case in the back cracked. I've still got that one around.
    From what I understand, the expanding battery is a defect and cannot be caused by failing to calibrate the battery.

    PS: I've had an early iPhone and several Macs with expanding batteries, but it's been a very long time. I think around the time they moved from the 300 to 1000 charge cycle chemistry (before the battery will only retain 80% of its original charge) that stopped being an issue. I also hear less about physical battery issue, which I find pretty damn impressive considering the number of batteries they use (although, that's anecdotal).
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 29 of 36
    Soli said:
    boredumb said:
    As long as the unit you set your device on has to be plugged in, you aren't really "wireless",
    and you're still confined to a certain radius based on that cord length anyway…
    1) You don't consdier a wireless router wireless because the router has to be plugged in, not to mention the devices which connect to your WiFi network need to be powered at some point?

    2) What power option wouldn't be confined to a radius?



    I think what you're after is something like this:


    Radio charging serves low-power devices operating within a 10-meter (30-foot) radius from the transmitter to charge batteries in medical implants, hearing aids, watches, entertainment devices and RFID (radio frequency identification) chips. The transmitter sends a low-wattage radio wave and the receiver converts the signal to energy. Radio charging resembles radio transmission the most; it offers high flexibility but has a low power capture and exposes people to electro-smog. Radio charging is not in common use.

    http://www.batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_without_wires
    The picture, above, reminds me of an old joke:

    Question: What are the 3 things a bird can do that a man can't do?

    Answer:  Well, there's 1) Fly;  then 2) sit on a hot power line without frying his ass;  and 3) whistle through his pecker!


    edited October 2016
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 30 of 36
    mike1mike1 Posts: 3,502member
    boredumb said:

    Soli said:
    mike1 said:
    I also wonder if anybody has tested the effect of micro-charges on the overall health and lifetime of a battery. What happens if you if you place the phone on a charging mat at say 15% battery charge, leave it on there for 10 minutes, pick it up to make a call for 5 minutes, put it back for 2 minutes, pick it up to do some e-mail. Maybe the battery bounces between 20% and 30% charge all day. Then do this every day. Unless something has changed in battery tech, which I don't think has happened, I see this use pattern seriously degrading the max life of a fully charged battery.
    I don't know of any permanent damage that will happen. The cells wear down based on usage, and whether you're using, say, 50% in a day with spot charging in between usage or between charging, it's still one-half of the battery cells being charged and uncharged in a given day. Since Apple uses a battery chemistry that is rated for 1000 charges before the battery holds 80% of its original capacity, that would be 2,000 or nearly 5.5 years before you'd reach that point. You might need to calibrate the battery, but I'm not sold on how effective that rigamarole really is.
    I still think Mike1's point may have validity.  Halfway charging your device one time, 75% the next, 40% the next, may turn out to be different from 2% then 8% then 3% etc.  Apple's battery care standards don't really address that particular sort of partial-cycle charging.  If anyone knows of actual studies that do address it, I'd very much appreciate being directed to them...
    So much to learn, so little ability to...uh...what was I saying?
    Even though, in theory at least, lithium batteries don't have a memory like NiCads did, best practices dictated and some manufacturers recommended fully charging batteries when they got down to 15-20% to maximize battery longevity. Of course, sometimes life gets in the way, but I usually try to do that and have had good results.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 31 of 36
    mike1mike1 Posts: 3,502member
    mike1 said:
    boredumb said:
    Can someone help me see the efficacy of this entire technology?
    As long as the unit you set your device on has to be plugged in, you aren't really "wireless",
    and you're still confined to a certain radius based on that cord length anyway...
    So, are the economies of space gained by removing the lightning or whatever connector from the equation,
    really not counterbalanced by whatever internal receptors receive and convey the charge?
    Or is the only real difference and benefit, closing that portal to incursion of moisture & dust?
    I also wonder if anybody has tested the effect of micro-charges on the overall health and lifetime of a battery. What happens if you if you place the phone on a charging mat at say 15% battery charge, leave it on there for 10 minutes, pick it up to make a call for 5 minutes, put it back for 2 minutes, pick it up to do some e-mail. Maybe the battery bounces between 20% and 30% charge all day. Then do this every day. Unless something has changed in battery tech, which I don't think has happened, I see this use pattern seriously degrading the max life of a fully charged battery.
    you don't think the engineers and manufacturers of this stuff have thought about the things you're thinking about? 
    Maybe in Apple's case. We'll see. I don't for a moment, however, doubt that Samsung and others would rather sell a wireless charging feature than the best overall performance.
    edited October 2016
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 32 of 36
    boredumbboredumb Posts: 1,418member
    Soli said:
    But there's still a wired somewhere, which was your concern and your reason for writing off all the benefits of not having to use a physical plug to charge. Solar has a radius, too.
    I believe I mentioned that "solar" was facetious.  And yes, my router has cords...plug in your phone in your den, now go to the bathroom, or out on the deck, or out to the mailbox...it can't be that hard to see the practical difference.  But, to simplify (not usually an issue when conversing with you), when using wi-fi, the device is essentially still mobile, when using any kind of charging, since the device must be in contact with the charger, it is essentially not mobile...
    And, while I'm at it, where did you delineate "all the benefits" I wrote off?  As I recall, that was key to my initial query.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 33 of 36
    boredumbboredumb Posts: 1,418member
     nolamacguy said:
    mike1 said:
    boredumb said:
    Can someone help me see the efficacy of this entire technology?
    As long as the unit you set your device on has to be plugged in, you aren't really "wireless",
    and you're still confined to a certain radius based on that cord length anyway...
    So, are the economies of space gained by removing the lightning or whatever connector from the equation,
    really not counterbalanced by whatever internal receptors receive and convey the charge?
    Or is the only real difference and benefit, closing that portal to incursion of moisture & dust?
    I also wonder if anybody has tested the effect of micro-charges on the overall health and lifetime of a battery. What happens if you if you place the phone on a charging mat at say 15% battery charge, leave it on there for 10 minutes, pick it up to make a call for 5 minutes, put it back for 2 minutes, pick it up to do some e-mail. Maybe the battery bounces between 20% and 30% charge all day. Then do this every day. Unless something has changed in battery tech, which I don't think has happened, I see this use pattern seriously degrading the max life of a fully charged battery.
    you don't think the engineers and manufacturers of this stuff have thought about the things you're thinking about? 
    Not psychic, my friend - I'm asking what they thought (not if they thought) - why they or anybody finds comparative advantages in this form of charging.  
    If you listen to advertising by Apple's competitors, you'd get the false impression that mobility was one of them ("no more wall-huggers!" etc.)...
    it patently isn't, so I'm simply curious what is.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 34 of 36
    baconstangbaconstang Posts: 1,193member
    Besides making physical alignment between phone and charger less critical, the thermal characteristics of ferrofluids can help a lot with thermal management of the system.
    This will help to avoid pulling a Samsung.
    watto_cobra
     1Like 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 35 of 36
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member
    Soli said:
    melgross said:
    It is supposed to enable a full charge. For whatever reason, apparently if it isn't done, every so often, you might not be able to fully charge it. It's recommended for all of Apple's devices. I've never had a problem with Apple's batteries. But my daughter did with her 3GS, way back. The battery expanded so much the plastic case in the back cracked. I've still got that one around.
    From what I understand, the expanding battery is a defect and cannot be caused by failing to calibrate the battery.

    PS: I've had an early iPhone and several Macs with expanding batteries, but it's been a very long time. I think around the time they moved from the 300 to 1000 charge cycle chemistry (before the battery will only retain 80% of its original charge) that stopped being an issue. I also hear less about physical battery issue, which I find pretty damn impressive considering the number of batteries they use (although, that's anecdotal).
    Sure, the battery became defective after some time. I'm just mentioning that she had a defective battery. But all batteries expand when charging or when used heavily. It's just a very small percentage though. It's also a reason why the Note 7 burned up.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
  • Reply 36 of 36
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,713member

    Besides making physical alignment between phone and charger less critical, the thermal characteristics of ferrofluids can help a lot with thermal management of the system.
    This will help to avoid pulling a Samsung.
    That had nothing to do with it. It was a combination of the phone design, and them putting a substantially larger battery inside at the last moment, and failing to properly test it.
     0Likes 0Dislikes 0Informatives
Sign In or Register to comment.