Apple captures more than 103% of smartphone profits in Q3 despite shrinking shipments

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 65
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 4,759member
    dugbug said:
    This headline is stupid. You can't capture more than 100% of something.
    It means other players in this market lost money
    And? Their losses are not profit for Apple.
    And how do you know this? If a company didn't sell enough of something to make a profit, that typically means a customer went elsewhere and bought a different product, in this case an iPhone. You're thinking too much into this. 
    netmage
  • Reply 42 of 65
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 4,759member

    fallenjt said:
    This headline is stupid. You can't capture more than 100% of something.
    Why not? Have you known about negative profit?
    Negative Profit, i.e. Loss. That's all I'm saying. Obviously mathematically Apple would be over 100% but wouldn't it make more sense to just say Apple is the only profitable smartphone maker? And even that is silly because not one smartphone maker tells you what their profit/loss is just for smartphones. Apple doesn't give us a P&L for iPhone.
    No, because thats most likely not true. Just because Apple is making 103% of the profits doesn't mean others aren't making profits. They just aren't making as much as Apple. You can't tell me that HTC, LG, Motorola, Samsung, etc are selling all of their phones at a loss right now. 
  • Reply 43 of 65
    The article title has the word profit in it.  If you lose money you do not make a profit and the result is returned as zero.  You mad zero profit.  In fact you lost money, but that does not mean you make negative profit just like you can't eat negative ice cream.

    Another way to look at this is how much profit is out there and how much did Apple get of it?  the amount of profit does not go up when someone loses money.  When someone loses money the amount of profit did not expand (all else being equal).  The amount of profit stayed the same.  It is just someone lost money.

    So profit is the whole pie.  Companies that don't have profit don't count at all, you exclude them.  Apple can't have more than 100%.  Apple is not the only company to make profit.  Out of those companies that make a profit how much does Apple have? 

    Last, Apple does not make more money because someone else loses money.  What they make relative to the losing company may be larger, but Apple makes the same amount of money. 

    You can do the math either way.  One way becomes very misleading.  You can have more than 100% growth in revenue.  You really can't have more than 100% market share.  You're selling everything and someone is selling negative something or buying back last year's inventory?  Simply does not make sense. 

    That is how it is done in the real world.  Glad my MBA comes in handy once in a while.
  • Reply 44 of 65
    g-newsg-news Posts: 1,107member
    For the same reason it is possible to have more than 100% of profits, the number is also pretty meaningless. You can have the same sum of profits over the years, yet still gain in the share of profits, if your competition increases their losses. As Samsung has obviously just lost a few billion on the Note 7 and the remaining competition isn't doing too well either, Apple's profit share could only rise. They could even have lower margins than a year ago yet still catch a bigger percentage of the profits. The metric is meaningless without context.
    edited November 2016
  • Reply 45 of 65
    steven n.steven n. Posts: 1,102member
    This headline is stupid. You can't capture more than 100% of something.
    I agree 110%. :-)

    by combing losses with profit, it could lead to some whacky numbers in the future. For example, if the industry gets disrupted and Apple's profits fall substantially and every other company looses money, Apple could capture 10,000% of the profits. It even gets whackier if The industry as a hole looses more money than Apple earns. Then Apple could make -250% of the profits while the other companies, that all lost money, would calculate to positive values. 

    but 103% of the profits make good click bait headlines. 
    rogifan_newsingularity
  • Reply 46 of 65
    steven n.steven n. Posts: 1,102member
    dugbug said:
    This headline is stupid. You can't capture more than 100% of something.
    It means other players in this market lost money
    It's still not a very useful measure.

    Say that Apple makes 10 billion profit, Samsung makes 6 billions and everybody else loses 6 billion.

    Then Apple makes 100% of industry - but Samsung also makes 60% of industry profits.

    However, the "100%" suggests somehow that everyone but Apple is insignificant which is not the case in this example. It would seem more informative to compare Apple's profits to the closest competitors. 
    It gets better. Do the math again with Apple only making 2 billion and Samsung making 1 billion with everyone one else loosing 3 billion. 
  • Reply 47 of 65
    croprcropr Posts: 904member
    It is clear that Apple is making the most profits in the smartphone business, but I do have serious doubts about the 103% figure.  How can one estimate the profit figure of Huawei?  Huawei is not a public company, it does not publish any profit figures about it smartphone business, so the only thing that remains is guessing.  Taken into account that Huawei is approaching the market share of Apple, the 103% figure must be taken with a big bag of salt. 
    jasenj1
  • Reply 48 of 65
    macxpress said:
    dugbug said:
    This headline is stupid. You can't capture more than 100% of something.
    It means other players in this market lost money
    And? Their losses are not profit for Apple.
    And how do you know this? If a company didn't sell enough of something to make a profit, that typically means a customer went elsewhere and bought a different product, in this case an iPhone. You're thinking too much into this. 
    How do we know their losses are all driven by fewer sales?
  • Reply 49 of 65

    cropr said:
    It is clear that Apple is making the most profits in the smartphone business, but I do have serious doubts about the 103% figure.  How can one estimate the profit figure of Huawei?  Huawei is not a public company, it does not publish any profit figures about it smartphone business, so the only thing that remains is guessing.  Taken into account that Huawei is approaching the market share of Apple, the 103% figure must be taken with a big bag of salt. 
    All of this stuff is just people pulling figures out of their rear end. 
  • Reply 50 of 65

    g-news said:
    For the same reason it is possible to have more than 100% of profits, the number is also pretty meaningless. You can have the same sum of profits over the years, yet still gain in the share of profits, if your competition increases their losses. As Samsung has obviously just lost a few billion on the Note 7 and the remaining competition isn't doing too well either, Apple's profit share could only rise. They could even have lower margins than a year ago yet still catch a bigger percentage of the profits. The metric is meaningless without context.
    Exactly. Hence why the click bait headline is stupid.
    singularity
  • Reply 51 of 65
    calicali Posts: 3,495member
    Wow I predicted 96% this year but 103.6%!?!

     Time to celebrate! 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 65
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 4,759member
    macxpress said:
    dugbug said:
    This headline is stupid. You can't capture more than 100% of something.
    It means other players in this market lost money
    And? Their losses are not profit for Apple.
    And how do you know this? If a company didn't sell enough of something to make a profit, that typically means a customer went elsewhere and bought a different product, in this case an iPhone. You're thinking too much into this. 
    How do we know their losses are all driven by fewer sales?
    How do we know they weren't? 
  • Reply 53 of 65
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 4,759member


    g-news said:
    For the same reason it is possible to have more than 100% of profits, the number is also pretty meaningless. You can have the same sum of profits over the years, yet still gain in the share of profits, if your competition increases their losses. As Samsung has obviously just lost a few billion on the Note 7 and the remaining competition isn't doing too well either, Apple's profit share could only rise. They could even have lower margins than a year ago yet still catch a bigger percentage of the profits. The metric is meaningless without context.
    Exactly. Hence why the click bait headline is stupid.
    And yet you clicked on it... Haha!
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 65
    Maybe I'm just old, but I do not see this as good news.

    In the 1980s there was a deliberate decision by Apple management to go for the "high right" part of the product graph - that is, the high-price, high-margin side of the product spectrum. For about five years this made Apple highly profitable, the darling of Wall Street.

    The problem is that it was also responsible for the 1990s crash in Apple sales. As others came into the market with still-inferior-but-not-as-much machines, the market for high-end DPT (for instance) became diluted. When Windows 95 came, developers fled the platform overnight. And when the developers fled, the customers disappeared too.

    I really do worry this is the same thing again. Wall Street is happy, but are any of you? Have any recent Apple products seemed to be as knockout as previous ones? Is the new MBP as much better than everyone else than the TiBook was, or the iPod, or iPhone?

    If the market share keeps slipping, there is a point, I don't know where but I can't believe it's far below 12%, where developers will just stop. And at that point, everyone here will think about switching. It simply isn't about Apple, there's an ecosystem that has to be kept healthy, and there's no guarantee that Apple's margins will translate into theirs.
  • Reply 55 of 65
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,556member

    cropr said:
    It is clear that Apple is making the most profits in the smartphone business, but I do have serious doubts about the 103% figure.  How can one estimate the profit figure of Huawei?  Huawei is not a public company, it does not publish any profit figures about it smartphone business, so the only thing that remains is guessing.  Taken into account that Huawei is approaching the market share of Apple, the 103% figure must be taken with a big bag of salt. 
    All of this stuff is just people pulling figures out of their rear end. 

    I'm amazed that an analyst has actually managed to come up with a figure more meaningless than market share. 

    If if you want measure percentage of profit then including companies that made a loss makes about as much sense as including companies with unisex bathrooms. 
  • Reply 56 of 65
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    badmonk said:
    Apple's profits in this space ensures its dominance for the time being.  And note the bifurcation of the market...no windows phones, no tizen devices.  It means things will continue this way for awhile.

    And Microsoft will not be the next Apple with its top-down approach with $2700 surface tablets and mega-touch devices.

    We live in a post-computer world.
    We don't live in a post computer world.

    macs and pcs (of which the surface family belong) are computers. Nothing more.

    and mobile devices are as well, just tailored to suit more limited needs. And that's something that only Apple seems to get. It is also why they are steadily succeeding while everyone else whiffs.
    the phrase refers to form factors. "post" means "after" (and not "replace" as rabble rousers like to suggest)... PC refers to the desktop form factor. thus post-PC means "the computing form factor that comes after the long dominant desktop PC".

    thats it.
  • Reply 57 of 65
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    dugbug said:
    This headline is stupid. You can't capture more than 100% of something.
    It means other players in this market lost money
    And? Their losses are not profit for Apple.
    the number indicates relativity to the sector. a positive number indicates their standing to the others.

    just admit it -- you dont know very much about this sort of thing, and now you're trying your best to refuse to learn. "Shame!" >clang!<
    watto_cobramacxpress
  • Reply 58 of 65
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    Maybe I'm just old, but I do not see this as good news.

    In the 1980s there was a deliberate decision by Apple management to go for the "high right" part of the product graph - that is, the high-price, high-margin side of the product spectrum. For about five years this made Apple highly profitable, the darling of Wall Street.

    The problem is that it was also responsible for the 1990s crash in Apple sales. As others came into the market with still-inferior-but-not-as-much machines, the market for high-end DPT (for instance) became diluted. When Windows 95 came, developers fled the platform overnight. And when the developers fled, the customers disappeared too.

    I really do worry this is the same thing again. Wall Street is happy, but are any of you? Have any recent Apple products seemed to be as knockout as previous ones? Is the new MBP as much better than everyone else than the TiBook was, or the iPod, or iPhone?

    If the market share keeps slipping, there is a point, I don't know where but I can't believe it's far below 12%, where developers will just stop. And at that point, everyone here will think about switching. It simply isn't about Apple, there's an ecosystem that has to be kept healthy, and there's no guarantee that Apple's margins will translate into theirs.
    yeah yeah, you're "concerned" that it's "Mac vs Windows all over again" yada yada.... we've all heard those tropes. unfortunately for your concern, the apple of today isn't the apple of yesterday. today theyre the largest and most profitable public company on earth with the best consumer satisfaction ratings, and theyve achieved these things because theyre better at making products than ever. your "concern" was been voiced for 10 years now -- warning of commoditization from cheap competitors. still nothing...the cheapies take up the bottom end w/ larger market share and apple sucks up the profit at the upper end. works for high-end car makers, and its working for a high-end phone maker. deal with it.
    watto_cobracali
  • Reply 59 of 65
    dugbug said:
    This headline is stupid. You can't capture more than 100% of something.
    It means other players in this market lost money
    And? Their losses are not profit for Apple.
    the number indicates relativity to the sector. a positive number indicates their standing to the others.

    just admit it -- you dont know very much about this sort of thing, and now you're trying your best to refuse to learn. "Shame!" >clang!<
    No it's just a meaningless figure. And on top of that its just a guesstimate not hard numbers coming from financial reports.
  • Reply 60 of 65
    Maybe I'm just old, but I do not see this as good news.

    In the 1980s there was a deliberate decision by Apple management to go for the "high right" part of the product graph - that is, the high-price, high-margin side of the product spectrum. For about five years this made Apple highly profitable, the darling of Wall Street.

    The problem is that it was also responsible for the 1990s crash in Apple sales. As others came into the market with still-inferior-but-not-as-much machines, the market for high-end DPT (for instance) became diluted. When Windows 95 came, developers fled the platform overnight. And when the developers fled, the customers disappeared too.

    I really do worry this is the same thing again. Wall Street is happy, but are any of you? Have any recent Apple products seemed to be as knockout as previous ones? Is the new MBP as much better than everyone else than the TiBook was, or the iPod, or iPhone?

    If the market share keeps slipping, there is a point, I don't know where but I can't believe it's far below 12%, where developers will just stop. And at that point, everyone here will think about switching. It simply isn't about Apple, there's an ecosystem that has to be kept healthy, and there's no guarantee that Apple's margins will translate into theirs.
    yeah yeah, you're "concerned" that it's "Mac vs Windows all over again" yada yada.... we've all heard those tropes. unfortunately for your concern, the apple of today isn't the apple of yesterday. today theyre the largest and most profitable public company on earth with the best consumer satisfaction ratings, and theyve achieved these things because theyre better at making products than ever. your "concern" was been voiced for 10 years now -- warning of commoditization from cheap competitors. still nothing...the cheapies take up the bottom end w/ larger market share and apple sucks up the profit at the upper end. works for high-end car makers, and its working for a high-end phone maker. deal with it.
    I haven't followed Apple since the very beginning. Were Apple fans always this obsessed with how much profit they make?  These days it seems any time someone brings up a concern they get Apple is most profitable blah blah blah thrown back at them. When did this become a who has the biggest dick contest?
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