armchair executives complaining about apple pricing -- news at 11.
Who's an armchair executive? This isn't MacRumors. My criticisms were sensibly phrased and thought about. I've long-since owned AAPL. I think like a customer now. If you think price shouldn't matter to the customer, you are wrong.
I'm not a price-sensitive purchaser of Apple gear. So this is rather academic to me.
That said, there has been a lot of international market volatility this year. Brexit and such. So currency markets on top of a price hike make for a large jump in some areas.
It might seem easy for me to say as an American, but in light of our recent election it's quite possible tarrifs on Asian manufactured Macs will cause a jump in American pricing soon.
Lord have mercy when this knee-jerk neanderthal gets in. Between that and George Bush taking to acrylic painting I don't know what to make of it all anymore.
I live by my Mac(s). I run my company from my macs. Most of the time I have at least 10 apps running on two large monitors. Apps usually include Numbers, Mail, Preview, Photoshop, Calendar, Contacts, Transmit, Dreamweaver, Preview, Safari and Firefox. My 2013 iMac has 8gb Ram, and ditto my 2015 MBP. I have never had a RAM issue whatsoever. The question is - am I a pro user?
I suspect the new base model 13" mbp would serve me just fine (though I'd more likely go for the TB version. Just because.
The $1,898 starting price in Europe would affect the star rating for me.
Well, but nothing about this is new. The European pricing includes VAT. The 13" w/o Touch Bar is EUR 1,699 here including 19% VAT (approx. 1,845 USD). If I subtract the VAT it is around 1,550 USD, or 50 USD more than in the US. This includes local support (something nobody else even offers), EU mandatory 2 year implicit warranty (which you do not get in the US and which partially eliminates the need for Apple Care)... Premium priced, for sure. But it is a premium article.
And as far as price "increases" are concerned, I do not really see them (other than what you might spend on adapters). If you upgrade last year's base model to a 256 GB SSD (128 GB was standard), you are at a price just around EUR 50 below the new model. These EUR 50 give you much faster storage, a much better display, a better trackpad, a better keyboard (ok, that is a personal choice, I absolutely love the 12" MacBook keyboard, and I will like this one), much better speakers, longer battery life, all in a smaller and lighter package. I would pay these additional EUR 50 in a heartbeat.
Now, what can be debated is if Apple should have kept a cheaper 128 GB option around to lower the entry-level price. Since this machine has ultra-fast I/O, adding more external storage without a real performance penalty later is no big deal. External SSDs like Samsung's T3, or the even faster San Disk one provide ample performance, are minuscule and they have come down a lot in price. You can find the external 1.9 TB San Disk SSD for around EUR 500 now.
Thanks Marvin. I do appreciate your comprehensive and technical reply. The high SSD speeds of both MacBook (Toshiba SSD) and MacBook Pro (SanDisk SSD) suggest they have RAID 0 inside since as far as I know, only Samsung has such speed for non-RAID 0 SSD. Indeed, SanDisk is prone to use such implementation as with SanDisk Extreme 900 portable SSD, yet they do not disclose it but it is revealed googling for it and "RAID 0":
I am still concerned about RAID 0 and in any case, I want such information disclosed, not hidden as SanDisk does. Customers have the right to know what they purchase.
Thanks Marvin. I do appreciate your comprehensive and technical reply. The high SSD speeds of both MacBook (Toshiba SSD) and MacBook Pro (SanDisk SSD) suggest they have RAID 0 inside since as far as I know, only Samsung has such speed for non-RAID 0 SSD. Indeed, SanDisk is prone to use such implementation as with SanDisk Extreme 900 portable SSD, yet they do not disclose it but it is revealed googling for it and "RAID 0":
I am still concerned about RAID 0 and in any case, I want such information disclosed, not hidden as SanDisk does. Customers have the right to know what they purchase.
Aren't all NAND running in parallel fro one controller essentially doing what RAID0 does? I wouldn't call it RAID0 because it's not discrete drives being paired, but it's still the same effect.
The $1,898 starting price in Europe would affect the star rating for me. At some point the price has to push the rating down. For what you're getting I'd give the machine a solid 3-stars. If I was rich I'd give it a 4 and the Touch Bar models 4.5 or something, but back in reality ("this is reality, Greg") money is an aspect for most and should affect the review justly. New 13" MBP without Touch Bar starts at almost $1,900 here... whoa. As for the highest end 15", that's over $5,500.
€1,749.00 Includes VAT of approx. €328.00. There... Apple Store Ireland. Or where are you located? Why do you blame Apple's pricing because of your VAT?
The $1,898 starting price in Europe would affect the star rating for me. At some point the price has to push the rating down. For what you're getting I'd give the machine a solid 3-stars. If I was rich I'd give it a 4 and the Touch Bar models 4.5 or something, but back in reality ("this is reality, Greg") money is an aspect for most and should affect the review justly. New 13" MBP without Touch Bar starts at almost $1,900 here... whoa. As for the highest end 15", that's over $5,500.
€1,749.00 Includes VAT of approx. €328.00. There... Apple Store Ireland. Or where are you located? Why do you blame Apple's pricing because of your VAT?
armchair executives complaining about apple pricing -- news at 11.
Who's an armchair executive? This isn't MacRumors. My criticisms were sensibly phrased and thought about. I've long-since owned AAPL. I think like a customer now. If you think price shouldn't matter to the customer, you are wrong.
I'm not a price-sensitive purchaser of Apple gear. So this is rather academic to me.
That said, there has been a lot of international market volatility this year. Brexit and such. So currency markets on top of a price hike make for a large jump in some areas.
It might seem easy for me to say as an American, but in light of our recent election it's quite possible tarrifs on Asian manufactured Macs will cause a jump in American pricing soon.
Lord have mercy when this knee-jerk neanderthal gets in. Between that and George Bush taking to acrylic painting I don't know what to make of it all anymore.
To be clear, I wasn't trying to stoke another political firestorm. Just pointing out possible policy-based price hikes that may be coming to Americans, possibly subjecting us to some of the same pains the rest of the world experiences.
Early adopters have to pay more to amortize the R&D and capital expenditures to revamp production. As long as demand outstrips supply, it's what the market will bear, and therefore the way the world works.
This time around, we're paying for the cluster of changes around the oxide display, which has allowed for a complete redesign of the architecture, as well as the more expensive display itself. Not to mention the space saving advances from the MacBook: the keyboard, the force-touch trackpad, SSDs, and USB-C only.
I'd fault the review here for not mentioning the energy and space saving mandates that the new display requires of the honest engineers at Apple. They take the implications all the way. Perversely, the review implies that this consumer-level machine might have better with a legacy USB-A port.
I've said all this before, but it bears repeating. Keeping a USB-A would have been a betrayal of the opportunity afforded by all the new space-saving elements. Imagine the offense of a thicker and wasteful wall of aluminum destroying that beautiful edge just to accommodate the old port. Jony Ive and crew have their principles, thankfully. And that's what makes the machines irresistible to early adopters.
Early adopters have to pay more to amortize the R&D and capital expenditures to revamp production. As long as demand outstrips supply, it's what the market will bear, and therefore the way the world works.
This time around, we're paying for the cluster of changes around the oxide display, which has allowed for a complete redesign of the architecture, as well as the more expensive display itself. Not to mention the space saving advances from the MacBook: the keyboard, the force-touch trackpad, SSDs, and USB-C only.
I'd fault the review here for not mentioning the energy and space saving mandates that the new display requires of the honest engineers at Apple. They take the implications all the way. Perversely, the review implies that this consumer-level machine might have better with a legacy USB-A port.
I've said all this before, but it bears repeating. Keeping a USB-A would have been a betrayal of the opportunity afforded by all the new space-saving elements. Imagine the offense of a thicker and wasteful wall of aluminum destroying that beautiful edge just to accommodate the old port. Jony Ive and crew have their principles, thankfully. And that's what makes the machines irresistible to early adopters.
You might wonder how it is that people are still managing with their 7 year old 17" MBPs. Could it have something to do with apple's forward-thinking designs?
MBPs aren't designed for today, they are designed for tomorrow.
avon b7 said: A fair review but this machine doesn't go past three stars in my book.
A 'fair review' meaning everyone is required to hold the same values as you. Uh huh.
I hope you can see how utterly stupid your comment is. If you can't, I will try to help you. Which part says everyone is required to hold the same values as me? Let me answer that for you: no part.
Was it too difficult to comprehend that that is my opinion?
When someone tells you they will pay you, do you ask them if it will be with money (just in case the try to pay you in some other fashion - magic beans perhaps?)
Cynically it almost seems the sole reason they named the one without a Touch Bar MBP is to jack up the price.
Good article that is. Schiller missed the mark there. Totally should have named it MBA (with Retina display). And I stand by my original statement that it's priced too high for what it is including the removal of VAT at 23%. It should have been the new MBA and priced at €1,499, with MacBook reduced to €1,299 and MBP with Touch Bar should have started at €1,799 (not €2,099).
Yes, it is a good replacement for an MBA if it was priced like an MBA. The problems with doing so is that it has close to the same form factor as the real MBPs, and has less battery life than an MBA. Also, how would it fit with the rMB which would look even lamer if this was priced as an MBA replac ment? So Apple decided to go with calling it the clunky named MBP with touch screen.
As I think about it more, the real problem with the MacBook line up is the rMB. If it was priced below the MBA, or even similar priced, it would have caused MBA prices to crater. As it is paying those prices for an m series chip is just wrong. And then there is the single port. so some Apple exec's baby is the rMB. But the MBA is more popular? What to do? Rather than address the rMB shortcomings, Apple's solution is to ossify the MBA. Hopefully with the end of the MBA, Apple will get around to fixing the rMB as an MBA replacement.
entropys said: Yes, it is a good replacement for an MBA if it was priced like an MBA. The problems with doing so is that it has close to the same form factor as the real MBPs, and has less battery life than an MBA.
Ars pegged the new MBP light web browsing test at 16 hours. Their 2015 MBA got 14 hours on the same test at the same brightness (200 nits). Pricing is relative too. It's an updated design in smaller form with larger trackpad and starts with a 256 GB drive and high density screen. Pricing it at €1,499 would have been acceptable while calling it the new MBA (not €1,749 however). They could have easily went with the alu display frame to differentiate it from the Pro which also has Touch Bar, a much faster proc, faster RAM, two cooling fans and two additional USBc ports.
The article above makes a great argument for calling this the new MBA. After reading it I feel it is what Schiller should have done. There are enough differentiators from the new MBP with Touch Bar and my suggestion of alu display frame would have clarifyied that further visually. And over time the price would come down. And the existing Air would stick around as a budget machine.
Downgrade on connectivity. Downgrade on magsafe "insurance." Potential downgrade for the keyboard. Par for Ram & CPU speed (the lower native clock speed may actually make this a downgrade when pushing the machine). Improvements for SSD speed, weight, screen brightness & gamut.
This is, at best, a $1300 overall equivalent to the 2015 model dependent upon what your needs are and keyboard preference. AND... Apple continues to gouge customers with their RAM upgrades. Include the faster RAM, base 2.7ghz CPU and this becomes a much more palatable $1500 to swallow. At least $200 overpriced.
I call it a connectivity upgrade. The way Thunderbolt 3 is basically sic-fi. Once everything has a USB-C port (and one day everything will), the idea of video, networking and data cables will be as archaic as pulse versus touch-tone dialing in old-fashioned phone service (google it, millennials)
This is the key, the USB-C/Thunderbolt3 combo is a huge upgrade. It is rather shocking that more people don't grasp this reality. Sure it hurts a little bit in the beginning but long term it is a very signify improvement.
armchair executives complaining about apple pricing -- news at 11.
Who's an armchair executive? This isn't MacRumors. My criticisms were sensibly phrased and thought about. I've long-since owned AAPL. I think like a customer now. If you think price shouldn't matter to the customer, you are wrong.
I believe most people realize that price matters. Frankly I suspect this is a matter of Apple pricing the machine high to be able to offer discounts and promotionals. All this year there seems to have been a number of Mac Book promotions (deals and so forth) going. The higher list price just gives Apple room to offer discounts through its third party sellers.
entropys said: Yes, it is a good replacement for an MBA if it was priced like an MBA. The problems with doing so is that it has close to the same form factor as the real MBPs, and has less battery life than an MBA.
Ars pegged the new MBP light web browsing test at 16 hours. Their 2015 MBA got 14 hours on the same test at the same brightness (200 nits). Pricing is relative too. It's an updated design in smaller form with larger trackpad and starts with a 256 GB drive and high density screen. Pricing it at €1,499 would have been acceptable while calling it the new MBA (not €1,749 however). They could have easily went with the alu display frame to differentiate it from the Pro which also has Touch Bar, a much faster proc, faster RAM, two cooling fans and two additional USBc ports.
The article above makes a great argument for calling this the new MBA. After reading it I feel it is what Schiller should have done. There are enough differentiators from the new MBP with Touch Bar and my suggestion of alu display frame would have clarifyied that further visually. And over time the price would come down. And the existing Air would stick around as a budget machine.
Schiller has already done it during the keynote. He compared that MBP to MBA. Apparently the existing MBA will stick around for a while. One reason to not withdraw it right now may be to not make the Macbook series too unbalanced towards the Pro ones: Then there would remain only one entry level machine, the Retina Macbook vs. three models of Macbook Pro. I think the Pro models are consistent in their differentiation. This is the entry level that seems problematic at the moment. If MBA is withdrawn right now, the lack of another entry level machine becomes immediately apparent. Maybe such an entry level machine is still being developed? I can't figure out what it may look like. A 15" Retina Macbook perhaps? Given the footprint reduction in the new Pro line, that doesn't seem improbable. So I review what I said before: after the withdrawal of MBA and pulling the 12" Retina Macbook to $1000 slot, Apple may fill the $1300 slot with another entry level machine instead of shifting all Pro models to a lower price slot.
armchair executives complaining about apple pricing -- news at 11.
Who's an armchair executive? This isn't MacRumors. My criticisms were sensibly phrased and thought about. I've long-since owned AAPL. I think like a customer now. If you think price shouldn't matter to the customer, you are wrong.
I'm not a price-sensitive purchaser of Apple gear. So this is rather academic to me.
That said, there has been a lot of international market volatility this year. Brexit and such. So currency markets on top of a price hike make for a large jump in some areas.
It might seem easy for me to say as an American, but in light of our recent election it's quite possible tarrifs on Asian manufactured Macs will cause a jump in American pricing soon.
Lord have mercy when this knee-jerk neanderthal gets in. Between that and George Bush taking to acrylic painting I don't know what to make of it all anymore.
Knee Jerk Neanderthal -- Really?
One of the reasons I voted for Trump, beyond that fact that Hillary is mentally ill in my opinion, is that he expressed a more rational approach to Russia. Hillary's desire to confront Russia would do nothing but create an environment for another massive war. A war by the way that would impact Americans by the millions. Now I can't say that Trump will be successful with Russia but we need to at least try a more rational approach.
Now was far as Mac and tariffs go, frankly it is a start. So much manufacturing has left the USA that we have no choice but to do something to turn the tide. Manufacturing is what built the middle class in the USA and that manufacturing hasn't been replaced with lucrative work in other fields. In the end the lack of viable jobs will result in social instability which we are already seeing to some extent.
So if these are the policies of a neanderthal then we should all become neanderthals.
Comments
I suspect the new base model 13" mbp would serve me just fine (though I'd more likely go for the TB version. Just because.
And as far as price "increases" are concerned, I do not really see them (other than what you might spend on adapters). If you upgrade last year's base model to a 256 GB SSD (128 GB was standard), you are at a price just around EUR 50 below the new model. These EUR 50 give you much faster storage, a much better display, a better trackpad, a better keyboard (ok, that is a personal choice, I absolutely love the 12" MacBook keyboard, and I will like this one), much better speakers, longer battery life, all in a smaller and lighter package. I would pay these additional EUR 50 in a heartbeat.
Now, what can be debated is if Apple should have kept a cheaper 128 GB option around to lower the entry-level price. Since this machine has ultra-fast I/O, adding more external storage without a real performance penalty later is no big deal. External SSDs like Samsung's T3, or the even faster San Disk one provide ample performance, are minuscule and they have come down a lot in price. You can find the external 1.9 TB San Disk SSD for around EUR 500 now.
I am still concerned about RAID 0 and in any case, I want such information disclosed, not hidden as SanDisk does. Customers have the right to know what they purchase.
2.0GHz Processor
256 GB Storage
This time around, we're paying for the cluster of changes around the oxide display, which has allowed for a complete redesign of the architecture, as well as the more expensive display itself. Not to mention the space saving advances from the MacBook: the keyboard, the force-touch trackpad, SSDs, and USB-C only.
I'd fault the review here for not mentioning the energy and space saving mandates that the new display requires of the honest engineers at Apple. They take the implications all the way. Perversely, the review implies that this consumer-level machine might have better with a legacy USB-A port.
I've said all this before, but it bears repeating. Keeping a USB-A would have been a betrayal of the opportunity afforded by all the new space-saving elements. Imagine the offense of a thicker and wasteful wall of aluminum destroying that beautiful edge just to accommodate the old port. Jony Ive and crew have their principles, thankfully. And that's what makes the machines irresistible to early adopters.
MBPs aren't designed for today, they are designed for tomorrow.
I like that.
Was it too difficult to comprehend that that is my opinion?
When someone tells you they will pay you, do you ask them if it will be with money (just in case the try to pay you in some other fashion - magic beans perhaps?)
This slashgear article agrees, although he forgets to mention the price aspect.
Good article that is. Schiller missed the mark there. Totally should have named it MBA (with Retina display). And I stand by my original statement that it's priced too high for what it is including the removal of VAT at 23%. It should have been the new MBA and priced at €1,499, with MacBook reduced to €1,299 and MBP with Touch Bar should have started at €1,799 (not €2,099).
The problems with doing so is that it has close to the same form factor as the real MBPs, and has less battery life than an MBA. Also, how would it fit with the rMB which would look even lamer if this was priced as an MBA replac ment? So Apple decided to go with calling it the clunky named MBP with touch screen.
As I think about it more, the real problem with the MacBook line up is the rMB. If it was priced below the MBA, or even similar priced, it would have caused MBA prices to crater. As it is paying those prices for an m series chip is just wrong. And then there is the single port.
so some Apple exec's baby is the rMB. But the MBA is more popular? What to do?
Rather than address the rMB shortcomings, Apple's solution is to ossify the MBA. Hopefully with the end of the MBA, Apple will get around to fixing the rMB as an MBA replacement.
Ars pegged the new MBP light web browsing test at 16 hours. Their 2015 MBA got 14 hours on the same test at the same brightness (200 nits). Pricing is relative too. It's an updated design in smaller form with larger trackpad and starts with a 256 GB drive and high density screen. Pricing it at €1,499 would have been acceptable while calling it the new MBA (not €1,749 however). They could have easily went with the alu display frame to differentiate it from the Pro which also has Touch Bar, a much faster proc, faster RAM, two cooling fans and two additional USBc ports.
The article above makes a great argument for calling this the new MBA. After reading it I feel it is what Schiller should have done. There are enough differentiators from the new MBP with Touch Bar and my suggestion of alu display frame would have clarifyied that further visually. And over time the price would come down. And the existing Air would stick around as a budget machine.
One of the reasons I voted for Trump, beyond that fact that Hillary is mentally ill in my opinion, is that he expressed a more rational approach to Russia. Hillary's desire to confront Russia would do nothing but create an environment for another massive war. A war by the way that would impact Americans by the millions. Now I can't say that Trump will be successful with Russia but we need to at least try a more rational approach.
Now was far as Mac and tariffs go, frankly it is a start. So much manufacturing has left the USA that we have no choice but to do something to turn the tide. Manufacturing is what built the middle class in the USA and that manufacturing hasn't been replaced with lucrative work in other fields. In the end the lack of viable jobs will result in social instability which we are already seeing to some extent.
So if these are the policies of a neanderthal then we should all become neanderthals.