President-elect Trump considers potential Apple manufacturing in US a 'real achievement'

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  • Reply 81 of 133
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,179member

    Manufacturing engineers.  Of the one million people making iPhones, how many of them are manufacturing engineers?  In the ten years time that one billion iPhones have been built, let's say a couple hundred thousand manufacturing engineers have been trained.  Maybe Donald Trump will be so kind as to get his magic pixie want and go around rural Pennsylvania and Austin Texas, and Janesville Wisconsin and say "Ding!  You're a manufacturing engineer!!  Go forth and build iPhones in the USA". So easy.

    Let's think out of the box (I hate that expression).

    What if the government(s) said:  There are many things that the private sector can do better and more efficiently than the government.  Rather than pass regulations, form bureaucracies, etc. to get the results -- wouldn't it be better to make an offer[s] they can't refuse to the private sector.

    Something like this:

    We, the government(s) will provide a safe, secure place to perform, and will offer incentives to you (private companies) to provide the services we need! *

    * This is how we get Utility companies, for example.

    So, the Jobs Czar says: Hey Apple we need jobs in Youngstown, Aliquippa, Chicago South Side...   What can you do to train and place people in these areas.

    Apple might respond:  We can train and place people in [the manufacturing of] application programs (or building and maintaining robots)...

    During the training, the students would be paid a good wage by the government(s).

    Oh, by the way, we also need facilities to train/house/feed these people -- let's get a private sector project to repair, build and maintain the necessary infrastructure.

    The fan out of new jobs/SMBs would be tremendous!


    Finally, a job returned to an outsourced [rustbelt] job does not necessarily need to be the same as the job that was lost -- it can be a better job with a better future!
    So the government funds all of this but Trump wants to cut taxes. Where does the money come from? Right now he's using the stick - tariffs - you're suggesting the carrot but the government has no carrots to give 

    1) Repatriation of over $2Trillion cash held overseas by US Corporations @ 10%

    2) Reduction of US Corporate taxes to 15%

    3) Future US Corporate taxes on overseas sales = 15% less taxes paid overseas

    4) Change the US from one of the highest-taxed business environment to be more competitive with other countries

    The above should encourage investment in the US economy by both US and Foreign companies.

    5) Reduction of individual Income taxes

    More money in citizens pockets == more money to spend and invest

    7) Thoughtful repeal and delay/replace of ACA 

    This should encourage SMBs to hire more employees 

    SMBs will also benefit from lower individual tax rates -- and may benefit by changing chapter S rules.


    I am old enough to remember when Elvis paid income taxes at 98%.  This lead to all kinds of creative tax-avoidance schemes by the millionaires who could afford it.

    JFK greatly reduced personal income taxes, as did Reagan -- the results were massive inflow of $ to the treasury instead of expensive tax-avoidance schemes.


    It comes down to this, IMO:  

    Do you want to invest this money to seed good jobs, infrastructure improvements, growth of the economy -- or big government mandates like $15/hr for burger flippers and an entitlement economy. 

    Others have said it, but JFK said it best:  A raising tide lifts all boats!


    What makes you think corporations will pay overaseas taxes just because the rate is reduced? If they are willing to avoid tax now, they'll avoid tax later too. Sure, if the tax rate is close to zero then avoidance becomes less profitable but 10-15% is not zero. This is all hypothetical anyway. There's no way Trump is raising tariffs like that. Imagine the inflation - tariffs, local manufacturing and cheap labour from immigrants all gone and more importantly, less consumer choice as most cheaper manufacturers will just leave the market. Trump won't change thing - he's a Republican
    The fact that Tim Cook said they would like to repatriate that money, but they couldn't justify it because charing ANY tax on it is absurd- it has already been taxed. They would use that money to pay dividends.

    Instead they borrow money here and then pay the dividends out of that.
    Not quite accurate but I understand the point you're trying to make. 
  • Reply 82 of 133
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,075member
    Owning Apple stock is turning into nothing but bad luck. Apple seems to be everyone's target as to what has gone wrong with America. Apple is no different from any of the other tech companies having products manufactured and assembled overseas. Wall Street is constantly on Apple's back due to declining profit margins and bringing manufacturing to America is going to put a huge burden on Apple's profit machine. It appears as though Apple's share price might be heading toward the $80 range if this nonsense keeps up. Of all the tech companies on the planet, Trump just has to go after Apple. I'm sure there must be plenty of American companies using overseas employees. Trump is getting his revenge on Apple because Tim Cook was supporting Hillary for president. Nice going, Tim.
    A big reason that Tim Cook and other tech exec supported Hillary was to get increased H1-B visas.     hopefully that is dead.
  • Reply 83 of 133
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,075member
    Manufacturing engineers.  Of the one million people making iPhones, how many of them are manufacturing engineers?  In the ten years time that one billion iPhones have been built, let's say a couple hundred thousand manufacturing engineers have been trained.  Maybe Donald Trump will be so kind as to get his magic pixie want and go around rural Pennsylvania and Austin Texas, and Janesville Wisconsin and say "Ding!  You're a manufacturing engineer!!  Go forth and build iPhones in the USA". So easy.
    You forget that for a long time the A series chip was made in Austin, Tx by Samsung I don't see why final assemble would not be made in the USA with many components coming from the world.   Does anyone know where the Intel and Qualcomm modem chips are manufactured?   Cook would then be able to show he really is a Supply Chain genius to manage this.
  • Reply 84 of 133
    gtrgtr Posts: 3,231member
    apple ][ said:
    kamilton said:
    Here's the difficulty with your position on Trump's documented behavior.   If I grab your wife's hoo hah or say that about your daughter, you'd not take offense?  I don't believe you!  You'd probably deck me, as well you should.  Accordingly, if you can't see the inherent contradiction in your thinking, then you're an idiot or delusional or both.
    It was a private conversation between 2 men.

    You do know that men (straight men) do like pussy, don't you?

    Anybody who claims to be shocked by it is a liar and a hypocrite.






    I have been sitting often - after playing squash - with groups of half naked men, or in a one to one situation, and never have I or one of my friends said things like: I grab 'm by the pussy. We like women. And yes, I was shocked. 
    Come on, you don't have to pretend you'd been playing squash!  ;)

    Surely if Obama parades his erection around a plane full of women journalists...



    ...and talks about pussy himself...



    ...then it should be okay for others to talk about sex in private.

    edited November 2016 tallest skilSpamSandwich
  • Reply 85 of 133
    k2kw said:
    Manufacturing engineers.  Of the one million people making iPhones, how many of them are manufacturing engineers?  In the ten years time that one billion iPhones have been built, let's say a couple hundred thousand manufacturing engineers have been trained.  Maybe Donald Trump will be so kind as to get his magic pixie want and go around rural Pennsylvania and Austin Texas, and Janesville Wisconsin and say "Ding!  You're a manufacturing engineer!!  Go forth and build iPhones in the USA". So easy.
    You forget that for a long time the A series chip was made in Austin, Tx by Samsung I don't see why final assemble would not be made in the USA with many components coming from the world.   Does anyone know where the Intel and Qualcomm modem chips are manufactured?   Cook would then be able to show he really is a Supply Chain genius to manage this.
     I think Tim is up to the job! 
    gtr
  • Reply 86 of 133
    Trump is playing to his base, a large portion of which don't have a clue as to how the economy works, and want simple answers to very complex problems. The factories that churn out millions upon millions of iThis and iThat are already up and running in other countries. Does anyone really believe that Apple is going throw away its investments in the partners that have made them rich? Apple doesn't own these factories, in any event; they're owned by their suppliers, and anyone who thinks Foxconn, one of the primary makers of the iPhone, is going to suddenly say "Hey, I have an idea! Let's shut down our factories in China, let go of over a million employees (yes, they have that many), spend millions in researching new regulations in a foreign country, spend billions on a new plant(s), retrain new employees, and make less profit, just because Donald Trump promised his gullible voters that we would." Even Trump knows that isn't going to happen. He also knows that the reason jobs are disappearing here in America is because of automation. Initially, they left because of cheaper labor (and that's still a factor), but, as technology advances it becomes less of a factor, as labor is replaced by automated machinery and robots.

    The auto industry had a record year in 2016, and I'd bet they did so with fewer jobs. When I was a young man, an entire auto was put together by hand, running down an assembly line. Today's auto factory is completely different, as robotics takes over. Even the fast food industry is looking to cut unskilled jobs with automation and robotics.

    Trump promised the Virginia coal miners the same thing, while knowing full well he couldn't deliver. Coal jobs aren't coming back, because coal is becoming more expensive than wind and solar.

    The reality is that the job market is changing, and if you sit at your kitchen table, moaning about not being able to find a job, while swilling your Bud Lite, Trump isn't going to be able to help you, for the simple fact is that your job is gone, and not coming back. Take some of that personal responsibility that a certain political party is always saying that it believes in and educate yourself on what you'll be doing in the future, and learn something new (it's really not that scary). 

    The days of working for one company for life, collecting a pension and retiring near palm trees isn't going to get there, for you, unless you make it happen for yourself. It isn't up to Trump, or any politician in either party to make sure you get a paycheck. Change happens; deal with it or suffer.
    anantksundaramroundaboutnowjlanddpalomine
  • Reply 87 of 133
    I love liberal thinking... Raise minimum wage to $15. Can't manufacture iPhones here, wages are too high.
    Its already $15?

    Wow, those liberals are amazing...
  • Reply 88 of 133
    gatorguy said:
    Someone should just explain to Trump that 99% of the value is in the software and 95% of that is made in the US. He'd love that
    ...but rights assigned to/owned by Irish subsidiaries who use it to charge high licensing fees and avoid a portion of corporate taxes in various countries? 
    This is a nonsensical assertion.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 89 of 133

    What makes you think corporations will pay overaseas taxes just because the rate is reduced? If they are willing to avoid tax now, they'll avoid tax later too. Sure, if the tax rate is close to zero then avoidance becomes less profitable but 10-15% is not zero. This is all hypothetical anyway. There's no way Trump is raising tariffs like that. Imagine the inflation - tariffs, local manufacturing and cheap labour from immigrants all gone and more importantly, less consumer choice as most cheaper manufacturers will just leave the market. Trump won't change thing - he's a Republican

    US Corps like Apple have been lobbying for years to repatriate their overseas profits at a reduced tax rate.  The current rate is 35% -- 10% is manna from heaven.

    It's 10% over and above taxes already paid abroad. Lower than 35%, for sure, but not just 10%.
  • Reply 90 of 133
    opa karl said:
    …a large portion of which don’t have a clue as to how the economy works…
    Entirely true. Unquestionably accurate. Why, this has been known for a good long while now.
    It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. – Henry Ford
    However, I’ll take Trump’s partial base’s economic knowledge to the mathematical assurance that Hillary’s (et. al.) ENTIRE base does not know how the economy works.
    Does anyone really believe that Apple is going throw away its investments in the partners that have made them rich?
    Who would say they must?
    The auto industry had a record year in 2016
    Over a trillion dollars in loans (ever more of which becoming truant) and a bubble bigger than the world has ever seen. What could possibly go wrong?

    Even the fast food industry is looking to cut unskilled jobs with automation and robotics.
    Couldn’t possibly be because uneducated morons who don’t know how inflation works are demanding $15 an hour or anything… 
    Trump promised the Virginia coal miners the same thing, while knowing full well he couldn't deliver. Coal jobs aren't coming back, because coal is becoming more expensive than wind and solar.
    Drop all illegal federal energy subsidies (that’s a redundancy; it means all of them) and we’ll see what’s cheaper.
    Take some of that personal responsibility that a certain political party is always saying that it believes in and educate yourself on what you'll be doing in the future, and learn something new (it's really not that scary).
    Change happens; deal with it or suffer.
    The irony!
    The days of working for one company for life, collecting a pension and retiring near palm trees isn't going to get there, for you, unless you make it happen for yourself.
    The days of the unconstitutional madness of “social security” are nearing an end. Best to retask people entirely.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 91 of 133


    Right now it's just too dangerous to build a factory- because you get eaten out by everyone from the local union thugs to the president who has their hand out demanding a cut.
    I think that companies like Tesla, Mercedes Benz, and BMW would vehemently disagree with you. 

    The issue is not whether there are skills in the US. It is whether the skills are there in sufficient quantity to build many dozens of millions of a product like the iPhone, and whether the supply chain for it can exist at reasonable cost, quality, and timeliness.
    palomine
  • Reply 92 of 133
    k2kw said:
    Owning Apple stock is turning into nothing but bad luck. Apple seems to be everyone's target as to what has gone wrong with America. Apple is no different from any of the other tech companies having products manufactured and assembled overseas. Wall Street is constantly on Apple's back due to declining profit margins and bringing manufacturing to America is going to put a huge burden on Apple's profit machine. It appears as though Apple's share price might be heading toward the $80 range if this nonsense keeps up. Of all the tech companies on the planet, Trump just has to go after Apple. I'm sure there must be plenty of American companies using overseas employees. Trump is getting his revenge on Apple because Tim Cook was supporting Hillary for president. Nice going, Tim.
    A big reason that Tim Cook and other tech exec supported Hillary was to get increased H1-B visas.     hopefully that is dead.
    I doubt it. We'll see soon enough, won't we?
    edited November 2016
  • Reply 93 of 133
    evilution said:
    If you get robots to make the products, the costs shouldn't be much higher. Plus you get less leaks.

    EDIT: Never Mind.
    edited November 2016
  • Reply 94 of 133
    gtrgtr Posts: 3,231member
    evilution said:
    If you get robots to make the products, the costs shouldn't be much higher. Plus you get less leaks.

    EDIT: Never Mind.
    You didn't make a joke about oil leaks, did you?

    Cos I would have LOL'ed.

    ;)
    edited November 2016 SpamSandwich
  • Reply 95 of 133
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    k2kw said:
    evilution said:
    If you get robots to make the products, the costs shouldn't be much higher. Plus you get less leaks.
    Steven Job's ultimate vision, dating back to his time with NeXT, was to have machines building machines, so I bet Apple has been investing heavily into supply chain automation (logistics automation). The Liam is probably one of the manifestation of this.
    Tesla is investing in automation/robotics.   I doubt if Cook is.
    Why?  Especially since we know for a fact that he is in one sense, Liam.
  • Reply 96 of 133
    kamilton said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    I have high hopes for Trump. I voted for him because I truly believe he can bring changes that are need here stateside. I also think good advisers will temper his extreme talk. He is just candid like I am. Doesn't mean he is bad. Just has to choose his words differently depending on who he is addressing. 
    Right.

    So during a conversation about women during whicy he said, "You can do anything. Grab them by the p###y," which words should he have chosen?

    When he went past that 14-year-old girl and said to an adviser that he would be dating her in ten years, would it have been better if he said he'd be dating her in twelve years?
    Stop being a pussy. I don't see anything wrong with those comments.
    Here's the difficulty with your position on Trump's documented behavior.   If I grab your wife's hoo hah or say that about your daughter, you'd not take offense?  I don't believe you!  You'd probably deck me, as well you should.  Accordingly, if you can't see the inherent contradiction in your thinking, then you're an idiot or delusional or both.
    What he said was that when you're famous, women let you do anything to them, even let you grab them by the pussy. Is there something wrong with that statement? If Trump told a friend that in 10 years, he'd be dating my daughter, why would I be offended? You should stop being a beta male pussy. Are you a male feminist?
    edited November 2016 SpamSandwichgtr
  • Reply 97 of 133
    fracfrac Posts: 480member
    jasenj1 said:
    I don't see how the USA can compete with cultures where workers are housed in dorms, eat in company cafeterias, don't own cars, etc. Where many of the employees' other choices include subsistence farming in huts. And I don't know what the health care is like in China, the Philippines, Taiwan, etc. but I'm going to guess it is cheaper for companies than whatever we have in the USA. And then there's environmental regulations, workplace safety, and many other regulatory burdens.

    I'm not saying it can't be profitable to manufacture in the USA, but I think it will always be MORE profitable to manufacture in third/second-world countries. Unless we impose large enough tariffs - but that leads to cries of "protectionism", "trade war", etc.
    Some very good points, particularly "workplace safety". A few years ago I was asked by the owner of a cast iron manufacturer here in the U.K. that had outsourced first to Slovakia and when that fell through on quality concerns...to China, to investigate as best I could, their working conditions and safety record during a trip I made. His B of D's had concerns. 
    I found a staggering lack of any worker based safety policy and a total disregard for worker health issues in the factory. They were quite open about it. I witnessed child labour being used to de-coke castings because they could get into smaller spaces. Severe burns were commonplace, many had lost fingers, eyes, teeth and had open sores. They had ridiculously low wages, no protection and no breaks in a 12 hour day. If they missed one day through illness, they were sacked and owed wages not payed. Environmentally, it was like a modern day Dickensian nightmare with filth, zero sanitation, choking pollution - even in their offices and bullying at every management level. 
    As far as I could tell, it was modern day slavery - but the product was cheap. 
    I reported my strongly held belief that there was no justification for using this company other than bottom line economics. 
    They moved production to Malaysia. 
    The one thing chump Trump would have to do, would be to remove all worker rights and protection ie. sweeping deregulation to the point of insanity, and rewrite hard-won environmental protection, to even begin to produce a level playing field. 
    Ain't going to happen. 
    palomine
  • Reply 98 of 133
    kamilton said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    I have high hopes for Trump. I voted for him because I truly believe he can bring changes that are need here stateside. I also think good advisers will temper his extreme talk. He is just candid like I am. Doesn't mean he is bad. Just has to choose his words differently depending on who he is addressing. 
    Right.

    So during a conversation about women during whicy he said, "You can do anything. Grab them by the p###y," which words should he have chosen?

    When he went past that 14-year-old girl and said to an adviser that he would be dating her in ten years, would it have been better if he said he'd be dating her in twelve years?
    Stop being a pussy. I don't see anything wrong with those comments.
    Here's the difficulty with your position on Trump's documented behavior.   If I grab your wife's hoo hah or say that about your daughter, you'd not take offense?  I don't believe you!  You'd probably deck me, as well you should.  Accordingly, if you can't see the inherent contradiction in your thinking, then you're an idiot or delusional or both.
    What he said was that when you're famous, women let you do anything to them, even let you grab them by the pussy. Is there something wrong with that statement? If Trump told a friend that in 10 years, he'd be dating my daughter, why would I be offended? You should stop being a beta male pussy. Are you a male feminist?
    Apparently, I'm a rare moralist who respects women.  Your women are safe and respected in my presence.  One of you pussy grabbers assault my daughter or wife and I'll acquaint you with my Second Amendment rights.  Defending the language and behavior of assault makes you complicit.  
    anantksundarampalomine
  • Reply 99 of 133
    What he said was that when you're famous, women let you do anything to them, even let you grab them by the pussy. Is there something wrong with that statement? 
    You are basically saying there is nothing wrong with saying you can sexually assault women because you're famous.  Despicable.

    Would you find it OK if he had said "When you're famous you can rape women"?  Because the principle is exactly the same, its just the level of abuse that is different.
     If Trump told a friend that in 10 years, he'd be dating my daughter, why would I be offended? You should stop being a beta male pussy.
    The fact you'd find it acceptable that a 70 year old man would look at a 14 year old and make a sexually based comment speaks volumes about you.  I don't know if you actually have a daughter, but if you do I pity her.
    Are you a male feminist?
    If you mean would I like to see women treated with respect and not be subjected to such lewd behavior, count me in.
    singularityanomepalomine
  • Reply 100 of 133
    jlanddjlandd Posts: 873member
    tallest skil said: 

    However, I’ll take Trump’s partial base’s economic knowledge to the mathematical assurance that Hillary’s (et. al.) ENTIRE base does not know how the economy works.

     What alternate universe have you been observing for you to reach that conclusion?
    singularityanantksundaram
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