Reported 2016 MacBook Pro graphics issues likely caused by third-party software [u]

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 72
    scrutinizerscrutinizer Posts: 2unconfirmed, member
    farjamed said:
    My 2010 15" MBP intermittently had this problem for years. I had to live with it like that until finally the motherboard needed to be replaced. I was having constant kernel panics related to the same graphics issue.  It was a little known issue that even Genius Bar employees did not know about. I found it hidden in apple support pages <…> Soon after mine was repaired, they took the article off their website and that was that.

    Hi farjamed,

    I got interested in this. Wondering if it's still possible to track down and retrieve this documentation using web cache? Could you please send me the original link in PM?
    Thanks
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 42 of 72
    farjamed said:
    My 2010 15" MBP intermittently had this problem for years. I had to live with it like that until finally the motherboard needed to be replaced. I was having constant kernel panics related to the same graphics issue.  It was a little known issue that even Genius Bar employees did not know about. I found it hidden in apple support pages <…> Soon after mine was repaired, they took the article off their website and that was that.

    Hi farjamed,

    I got interested in this. Wondering if it's still possible to track down and retrieve this documentation using web cache? Could you please send me the original link in PM?
    Thanks
    http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro-videoissues/

    "...The program covers affected MacBook Pro models until December 31, 2016 or four years from its original date of sale, whichever provides longer coverage for you."
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 43 of 72
    scrutinizerscrutinizer Posts: 2unconfirmed, member
    Farjamed,

    Thanks for your reply,
    I thought that by  "I found it hidden in apple support pages" you meant some purely technical description of possible causes for Kernel Panic like on the developer section considering just MacBookPro. Are we talking about the same? Otherwise it seems I've misinterpreted  your message and I did read about that program.
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 44 of 72
    Farjamed,

    Thanks for your reply,
    I thought that by  "I found it hidden in apple support pages" you meant some purely technical description of possible causes for Kernel Panic like on the developer section considering just MacBookPro. Are we talking about the same? Otherwise it seems I've misinterpreted  your message and I did read about that program.
    FYI this is not Farjamed but macplusplus who posted that reply #42.
    edited December 2016 scrutinizer
  • Reply 45 of 72
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,767member
    jdw said:
    If there were a replacement program and you missed it, that is totally your fault. Stop blaming the world for your misfortune.
    Another example of why AppleInsider forums can be a horrible place to share thoughts.  I enjoy AppleInsider articles, which is the primary reason I come here.   I also come across some good dialog in these forums too.  But the worst of humanity shoots forth in these forums, I must say.  Many AppleInsider forum posters worship the Dislike button and have no regard for their fellow man.  When someone posts a truth, they get Dislikes if their remarks aren't very pro-Apple.  Nearly all the pro-Apple posts, truthful or not, get mountains of Likes.  People with problems or people who vent some steam get pounded.

    Just because your life is near perfect or you have a near perfect brain that can resolve all problems in your own life doesn't mean everyone else can be your clone.  Have some sympathy. Stop adding woe to the existing woe of others.  Stop trying to play lawyer or teacher.  Encourage others and try to be friendly even when others don't reciprocate your goodness.  Stop complaining about people complaining.  If you read something you dislike, bite your tongue instead of clicking a Dislike or bashing that person.  When a fellow Mac user needs to vent, be upbeat and supportive.  Optimists make the world go 'round.
    The misfortune I was referring to was the ignorance or laziness that caused to skip over a free replacement program, not the general human condition. I have neither a perfect life nor a perfect brain yet I try to stay honest towards myself and others. I don't use this forum as a place to release steam and I try to keep my posts as factual as possible. If someone wants to release steam he can just open a blog, they are free and don't require a perfect life. I served at least two decades in that same sector and I know how hard is to make a living if your only capital is your creativity. I remember the days where a bundle of Macintosh SE and a PCL laser printer without Postscript were sold for $5000. Yet the creative people have managed to live with that and managed to change their lives and helped the world change considerably by sticking with that technology. This is a tech forum, not a literary forum. If someone wants to go into literary exercises to explain the world and the human condition there are more appropriate places for that.
    This is a tech forum but often brimming with human condition as your reply served to illustrate:

    "Stop blaming the world for your misfortune"

    He wasn't blaming the world for his misfortune but you waded in with your conclusions nonetheless. 

    In this specific case he is fully justified. 

    In the past I have also lost out in these situations.

    Apple has NEVER contacted me about ANY extended warranty EVER. ALL of my Macs have had AppleCare and they have my registration details. 

    It is not the job of the user to follow Apple's support notices to see if something pops up, possibly years after sale when, more often than not, Apple has the contact info of the potentially affected users.
    duervo
  • Reply 46 of 72
    avon b7 said:
    jdw said:
    If there were a replacement program and you missed it, that is totally your fault. Stop blaming the world for your misfortune.
    Another example of why AppleInsider forums can be a horrible place to share thoughts.  I enjoy AppleInsider articles, which is the primary reason I come here.   I also come across some good dialog in these forums too.  But the worst of humanity shoots forth in these forums, I must say.  Many AppleInsider forum posters worship the Dislike button and have no regard for their fellow man.  When someone posts a truth, they get Dislikes if their remarks aren't very pro-Apple.  Nearly all the pro-Apple posts, truthful or not, get mountains of Likes.  People with problems or people who vent some steam get pounded.

    Just because your life is near perfect or you have a near perfect brain that can resolve all problems in your own life doesn't mean everyone else can be your clone.  Have some sympathy. Stop adding woe to the existing woe of others.  Stop trying to play lawyer or teacher.  Encourage others and try to be friendly even when others don't reciprocate your goodness.  Stop complaining about people complaining.  If you read something you dislike, bite your tongue instead of clicking a Dislike or bashing that person.  When a fellow Mac user needs to vent, be upbeat and supportive.  Optimists make the world go 'round.
    The misfortune I was referring to was the ignorance or laziness that caused to skip over a free replacement program, not the general human condition. I have neither a perfect life nor a perfect brain yet I try to stay honest towards myself and others. I don't use this forum as a place to release steam and I try to keep my posts as factual as possible. If someone wants to release steam he can just open a blog, they are free and don't require a perfect life. I served at least two decades in that same sector and I know how hard is to make a living if your only capital is your creativity. I remember the days where a bundle of Macintosh SE and a PCL laser printer without Postscript were sold for $5000. Yet the creative people have managed to live with that and managed to change their lives and helped the world change considerably by sticking with that technology. This is a tech forum, not a literary forum. If someone wants to go into literary exercises to explain the world and the human condition there are more appropriate places for that.
    This is a tech forum but often brimming with human condition as your reply served to illustrate:

    "Stop blaming the world for your misfortune"

    He wasn't blaming the world for his misfortune but you waded in with your conclusions nonetheless. 

    In this specific case he is fully justified. 

    In the past I have also lost out in these situations.

    Apple has NEVER contacted me about ANY extended warranty EVER. ALL of my Macs have had AppleCare and they have my registration details. 

    It is not the job of the user to follow Apple's support notices to see if something pops up, possibly years after sale when, more often than not, Apple has the contact info of the potentially affected users.
    In that specific case, it is the user who has to contact Apple. Because the issue does not manifest itself in every laptop. That depends on the usage. Regarding the 2011 MBP 15" logic board replacement program I posted the link above, I've done a lot of video conversions and rendering on that machine causing it to heat up to 95° C. Someone else might have used without heating it that much and would experience no issue at all. Apple cannot know that and Apple should not panic its users either by calling each one by one for such a trivial issue. And yet Apple has not hidden anything, this issue had been largely processed by the computing media and I learned the existence of such a program from the media. If that was an exploding battery then the case would be different because there is a life hazard and Apple is expected to call its customers in such a fictitious case. Since you're locked-up to a "defective GPU" scenario and to your metaphysical conception of a world you idealized in your mind, you couldn't consider (or care about) even such basic things about real life and come to wrong conclusions, in short.

    Don't worry you are still unfalsifiable...
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 47 of 72
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,767member
    avon b7 said:
    jdw said:
    If there were a replacement program and you missed it, that is totally your fault. Stop blaming the world for your misfortune.
    Another example of why AppleInsider forums can be a horrible place to share thoughts.  I enjoy AppleInsider articles, which is the primary reason I come here.   I also come across some good dialog in these forums too.  But the worst of humanity shoots forth in these forums, I must say.  Many AppleInsider forum posters worship the Dislike button and have no regard for their fellow man.  When someone posts a truth, they get Dislikes if their remarks aren't very pro-Apple.  Nearly all the pro-Apple posts, truthful or not, get mountains of Likes.  People with problems or people who vent some steam get pounded.

    Just because your life is near perfect or you have a near perfect brain that can resolve all problems in your own life doesn't mean everyone else can be your clone.  Have some sympathy. Stop adding woe to the existing woe of others.  Stop trying to play lawyer or teacher.  Encourage others and try to be friendly even when others don't reciprocate your goodness.  Stop complaining about people complaining.  If you read something you dislike, bite your tongue instead of clicking a Dislike or bashing that person.  When a fellow Mac user needs to vent, be upbeat and supportive.  Optimists make the world go 'round.
    The misfortune I was referring to was the ignorance or laziness that caused to skip over a free replacement program, not the general human condition. I have neither a perfect life nor a perfect brain yet I try to stay honest towards myself and others. I don't use this forum as a place to release steam and I try to keep my posts as factual as possible. If someone wants to release steam he can just open a blog, they are free and don't require a perfect life. I served at least two decades in that same sector and I know how hard is to make a living if your only capital is your creativity. I remember the days where a bundle of Macintosh SE and a PCL laser printer without Postscript were sold for $5000. Yet the creative people have managed to live with that and managed to change their lives and helped the world change considerably by sticking with that technology. This is a tech forum, not a literary forum. If someone wants to go into literary exercises to explain the world and the human condition there are more appropriate places for that.
    This is a tech forum but often brimming with human condition as your reply served to illustrate:

    "Stop blaming the world for your misfortune"

    He wasn't blaming the world for his misfortune but you waded in with your conclusions nonetheless. 

    In this specific case he is fully justified. 

    In the past I have also lost out in these situations.

    Apple has NEVER contacted me about ANY extended warranty EVER. ALL of my Macs have had AppleCare and they have my registration details. 

    It is not the job of the user to follow Apple's support notices to see if something pops up, possibly years after sale when, more often than not, Apple has the contact info of the potentially affected users.
    In that specific case, it is the user who has to contact Apple. Because the issue does not manifest itself in every laptop. That depends on the usage. Regarding the 2011 MBP 15" logic board replacement program I posted the link above, I've done a lot of video conversions and rendering on that machine causing it to heat up to 95° C. Someone else might have used without heating it that much and would experience no issue at all. Apple cannot know that and Apple should not panic its users either by calling each one by one for such a trivial issue. And yet Apple has not hidden anything, this issue had been largely processed by the computing media and I learned the existence of such a program from the media. If that was an exploding battery then the case would be different because there is a life hazard and Apple is expected to call its customers in such a fictitious case. Since you're locked-up to a "defective GPU" scenario and to your metaphysical conception of a world you idealized in your mind, you couldn't consider (or care about) even such basic things about real life and come to wrong conclusions, in short.

    Don't worry you are still unfalsifiable...
    I disagree. Apple should be proactive on all identified issues that lead to warranty extensions. ALL of them, not only 'life hazard' issues. 

    If they have your register info, they should contact you with the information even if the issue is only potential.
     
    Personally I would go one step further and also channel the information (I mean all warranty extension programmes) directly into the affected machines via something like software update.

    The basic infrastructure is already there. It could be adapted for this purpose with the user's permission and would represent a step in the right direction in terms of support.

    I would also offer the user a cashback agreement if the machine developed the fault outside the extension period. Perhaps the same amount an out of warranty repair might cost.

    As for being locked into 'defective GPU' scenario, I remind you that I haven't even mentioned the words defective GPU much less become locked into any 'scenario'.

    And for rest, wasn't it you who said this wasn't a life condition or literary forum?

    Was this really necessary?:

    "to your metaphysical conception of a world you idealized in your mind, you couldn't consider (or care about) even such basic things about real life and come to wrong conclusions, in short.

    Don't worry you are still unfalsifiable..."


    duervo
  • Reply 48 of 72
    I've been using mine to render with Blender 3D and with Premiere Pro and it works just fine. But I didn't transfer any data or settings using migration from an older mac, that usually is the death of macOS, when you migrate using the assistant and have accumulated years of preferences…
    macplusplus
  • Reply 49 of 72
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,755member
    I'm sure some of you will know the answer to this question. When a company makes a computer product do they not load it up with all sorts of popular third party apps to run it through it's paces?  My experience of reading about new Mac releases over many decades would say that Apple does not.  I doubt anyone else does either.  Why would you not make a strong effort to "break" your new product by testing it the way your customers are going to use it?  This has always been a mystery to me.
  • Reply 50 of 72
    mj webmj web Posts: 918member
    An "early adopter" tax Apple will fix. A year from now all the software glitches will be squashed, the CPU will be upgraded, more RAM will be addressable, battery life will be better, the computer will be faster, the price will drop, third party apps will take advantage of the Touch Bar, and I may consider buying one.
  • Reply 51 of 72
    jdwjdw Posts: 947member
    I'm still worried, even after reading the good experiences of others.  Again, I've got a fully loaded 15" MBP w/TouchBar + AppleCare on backorder with Adorama.  But the graphic glitches I read about are a worry, and now I am seeing articles about short battery life during regular use (which doesn't seem exclusively tied to the use of the Chrome browser either):

    http://www.macrumors.com/2016/12/03/macbook-pro-battery-life-concerns/

    Even this fellow's rather upbeat review cites lackluster battery life versus his 2015 model:
    https://youtu.be/YlXM6RUB_g0

    And this guy cites poor battery life and the fact it is noticeably slower than his 2015 model:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7sqJFe-XBc

    This guy doesn't report bad performance but he does cite bad battery life:
    https://youtu.be/_9htVUns6qg

    If Adorama had the 2015 15" MBP model available in a fully loaded configuration with AppleCare, it would be easy to cancel the 2016 and go with that reliable 2015 model.  Speed would be roughly the same, only slightly larger and heavier, better keyboard, and with SD card slot, MagSafe, Power Extension Cord, and USB-A ports.  But it doesn't seem like anyone sells the fully loaded 2015 model except for EBAY, from sellers who say "no refunds."  By fully loaded I mean 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2.8GHz CPU and the AMD Radeon R9 M370X GPU.  Models with the GPU are very hard to find outside EBAY for some reason.  Everyone seems to have stock of the models without GPU, which seems to indicate that everyone is buying up the dGPU models.

    I've already purchased some USB-C dongles for the 2016 MBP on backorder so I guess I shouldn't cancel, but more and more these negative reports worry me.
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 52 of 72
    GeorgeCNBGeorgeCNB Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    If 3rd party software can cause problems like this then there is an issue with the underlying Apple software. The point of an OS is to prevent non-OS programs from causing problems like this. Also why didn't Apple testing detect these problems before the machines were released? Doesn't Apple have enough money to QA their machines? Finally why can't you be more specific about which third party software is allegedly causing the issues?
  • Reply 53 of 72
    coolfactorcoolfactor Posts: 1,804member
    I can offer both general, reported evidence that is available to everyone, and I can also offer my anecdotal experiences. As to the latter... Every time (and the times have been twice since 2006 - once for an iPhone swap because I broke mine, and once for another iPhone that had a defective, bulging battery out of warranty), I was made to feel like I was their only customer. They were so interested in my satisfaction that THEY were calling ME to make sure I was happy.

    Cradle to grave.  

    I need to chime in here on this, too. The only support call that I've made to Apple recently was handled with such care, I was left breathless. From the moment I called the number to the moment that I hung up, the experience was like night and day compared to your average call into a company. The AI that initiated the call was super smart and the human agent that I was connected with kept me on the line to resolve my issue instead of passing me to another department. She contacted other departments, as needed, instead of passing me there. It was a very satisfying experience, to say the least. I truly felt she cared about my problem (ie. an iPhone 4 that re-locked itself after I paid my carrier to unlock it).
  • Reply 54 of 72
    mj webmj web Posts: 918member
    That's what Gateway 2000 used to say, "Not our fault -- its the Radeon drivers!"
  • Reply 55 of 72
    hucom2000 said:
    Mine was doing it when switching users... no third party software involved here.

    I had a bigger problem with the graphics card though. And it's the reason why I have returned the laptop:

    Battery life
    . 5-6 hours browsing the web and answering emails, doing nothing taxing? The battery of my four year old 13" beats that... PRAM Reset, SMC Reset - nothing helped. I then installed gfxCardStatus which tells you which of the GPUs is active. It showed that the MacBook Pro was constanly switching to the discrete GPU, even when just browsing the web. And that's precisely when the battery drained. I could literally watch the percentage dwindle when the discrete card was active. 

    It feels like an unfinished product to me, like Apple has a quite bit of optimizing left to do. The real problem is that the system preference's options only allows for automatic switching or discrete only. What we need is an option for integrated only, so that we can have all-day battery life if we need it.

    I'm also curious to find out, if there's a difference between the (real life, not on paper) power consumption of the 450 vs, 455 vs 460? I had completely maxed-out the configuration with the fastest i7, fastest GPU, 2TB, etc. Maybe that was a mistake...
    That's normal, my 2011 does that all the time. Uninstalling Flash or adding a click to Flash ad blocker plugin helps. Most of the time it's going to be animated or video ads kicking the dGPU on. But you can see the dependencies in gfxCardStatus to kill offending apps that you might not be currently using but are keeping it from switching. It's nothing new, and they have been improving things through App Nap and other optimizations in the OS. I get maybe 3 hrs or a bit more without the dGPU running, and under 2 if it's cranking away. I'll gladly take 5-6 when I eventually order the same model you returned. :)
  • Reply 56 of 72
    farjamed said:
    My 2010 15" MBP intermittently had this problem for years. I had to live with it like that until finally the motherboard needed to be replaced. I was having constant kernel panics related to the same graphics issue.  It was a little known issue that even Genius Bar employees did not know about. I found it hidden in apple support pages <…> Soon after mine was repaired, they took the article off their website and that was that.

    Hi farjamed,

    I got interested in this. Wondering if it's still possible to track down and retrieve this documentation using web cache? Could you please send me the original link in PM?
    Thanks
    http://www.apple.com/support/macbookpro-videoissues/

    "...The program covers affected MacBook Pro models until December 31, 2016 or four years from its original date of sale, whichever provides longer coverage for you."
    Just got my fourth logic board under this program. :/
  • Reply 57 of 72
    jdwjdw Posts: 947member
    Found some good news (if it can be believed) about the battery drain issue:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/OSXBeta/comments/5govjm/news_macos_10122_b5_tmacbook_pro_battery/

    But alas, no word yet on the graphics glitch problem.
    fastasleep
  • Reply 58 of 72
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,756member
    avon b7 said:
    mobius said:
    Other reports claim it may be related to File Vault 2. Couple that with your own mention of the Photos app, I'm not sure there's a strong enough case to be made (yet) to say it's "likely third party software" at fault.

    It does seem troubling that such an issue could strike these new models so soon after release, and especially after similar graphics problems had impacted some MBP 2011-13 models.

    One wonders just how much emphasis goes on Q and A these days. Perhaps they need to spend a bit more time and money on that. Otherwise it's going to cause damage to Apple's reputation at a time when patience is already wearing thin with many pro users.



    "In a serious case chronicled by a MacRumorsforum member Jan Becker, a new 15-inch MacBook Pro configured with an optional AMD Radeon Pro 460 GPU encountered trouble and ultimately crashed while transcoding video in Adobe Premiere Pro. Becker consequently took the machine into an Apple store for replacement."

    "The incident did not go unnoticed by Apple. Becker said he received a call from the company's headquarters in Cupertino, Calif., where a team of engineers asked him to help replicate the glitch over the phone and requested access to the affected laptop for further investigation."


    ^^^

    All part of that "Q and A" you thought smart to bring up. 

    Apple's is from cradle to grave. Good on them. 


    Warranty calls and refunds are the antithesis of good QA. 


    No such thing as perfect QA.


    Guess who's still the best in the business, though.


    http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/macbook-leads-reliability-customer-satisfaction/


    http://www.macrumors.com/2015/12/02/macbooks-top-consumer-reports-reliability/


    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliability


    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2498302,00.asp


    http://www.zdnet.com/article/consumer-reports-notebook-reliability-survey/


    I am sorry but after reading through the first link I didn't bother with the second.

    Please re-read it and tell me if there is something really tangible in there. 

    For example. Of the 58,000 subscribers that were quizzed, how many had Mac laptops? Of the rest, How many had comparable PC laptops? Could it be that a large part of the rest had low cost laptops (netbooks etc)?

    What were they measuring exactly? 

    It just seems like pie in the sky.

    Through experience I would say that you could easily find laptop brands/models that were on a par with Apple. Perhaps slightly better or slightly worse but comparing Apple with the entire PC industry would seem to away things in favour of Apple as in the opposing group you are including absolutely all the garbage that has come out over five years which is a segment that Apple just doesn't operate in.


    You're sorry for what, exactly? For not providing better, alternative metrics? Apple dominates THESE ones every year. For what, well over a decade now. 

    If *these* reports aren't good enough for you, PROVIDE BETTER ONES. I can wait. Don't bother with a few anecdotal reports and folks' personal experiences because unless they're multiplied on a massive scale, they're worthless. There has *always* been a certain steady stream of complaints against Apple, traceable back to over a decade ago. And there always will be. This is normal. It'd be odd if there weren't. But unless they're quantifiably significant, all we have is *your* complaint and the metrics and reports we already have. Guess which one *I'm* taking seriously.

    But there's more. 

    If you can't provide better reports or statistical measures, and if you're not satisfied with THESE ones – you know, the ones we see every year and which Apple dominates, then all we can conclude is that we don't *actually* have enough information to draw ANY general conclusions about Apple's Q and A, now do we. 

    So then how is it even remotely justifiable to trash Apple's Q and A under these circumstances, unless you're a perfidious little shit (I'm speaking generally) that thinks THEIR problems are a reflection on Apple as a whole and is perfectly fine with posting in in kind, without any regard that there's actually a galaxy of reality outside their three feet of personal space and insignificant experience. 

    Lmao. The complete lack of sense in so much of the careless commentary about Apple is priceless. I mean Lmao. Really. 

    Thanks for your time. 
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 59 of 72
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,479moderator
    jdw said:
    Found some good news (if it can be believed) about the battery drain issue:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/OSXBeta/comments/5govjm/news_macos_10122_b5_tmacbook_pro_battery/
    The battery issues people are seeing will partly be to do with it having a smaller battery:

    https://www.cnet.com/news/macbook-pro-october-2016-battery-life/

    2015 model had 99.5Wh (to fit within 100Wh flight regulations), new one has 76Wh. If the old one got 8 hours, putting the new one under the same load would get 6 hours. The new one should use less power during light usage but under heavy load, they'll use around the same. People who do moderately heavy tasks on battery will see ~25% drop vs older models.
  • Reply 60 of 72
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 5,767member
    avon b7 said:
    mobius said:
    Other reports claim it may be related to File Vault 2. Couple that with your own mention of the Photos app, I'm not sure there's a strong enough case to be made (yet) to say it's "likely third party software" at fault.

    It does seem troubling that such an issue could strike these new models so soon after release, and especially after similar graphics problems had impacted some MBP 2011-13 models.

    One wonders just how much emphasis goes on Q and A these days. Perhaps they need to spend a bit more time and money on that. Otherwise it's going to cause damage to Apple's reputation at a time when patience is already wearing thin with many pro users.



    "In a serious case chronicled by a MacRumorsforum member Jan Becker, a new 15-inch MacBook Pro configured with an optional AMD Radeon Pro 460 GPU encountered trouble and ultimately crashed while transcoding video in Adobe Premiere Pro. Becker consequently took the machine into an Apple store for replacement."

    "The incident did not go unnoticed by Apple. Becker said he received a call from the company's headquarters in Cupertino, Calif., where a team of engineers asked him to help replicate the glitch over the phone and requested access to the affected laptop for further investigation."


    ^^^

    All part of that "Q and A" you thought smart to bring up. 

    Apple's is from cradle to grave. Good on them. 


    Warranty calls and refunds are the antithesis of good QA. 


    No such thing as perfect QA.


    Guess who's still the best in the business, though.


    http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/macbook-leads-reliability-customer-satisfaction/


    http://www.macrumors.com/2015/12/02/macbooks-top-consumer-reports-reliability/


    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/laptops/LaptopReliability


    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2498302,00.asp


    http://www.zdnet.com/article/consumer-reports-notebook-reliability-survey/


    I am sorry but after reading through the first link I didn't bother with the second.

    Please re-read it and tell me if there is something really tangible in there. 

    For example. Of the 58,000 subscribers that were quizzed, how many had Mac laptops? Of the rest, How many had comparable PC laptops? Could it be that a large part of the rest had low cost laptops (netbooks etc)?

    What were they measuring exactly? 

    It just seems like pie in the sky.

    Through experience I would say that you could easily find laptop brands/models that were on a par with Apple. Perhaps slightly better or slightly worse but comparing Apple with the entire PC industry would seem to away things in favour of Apple as in the opposing group you are including absolutely all the garbage that has come out over five years which is a segment that Apple just doesn't operate in.


    You're sorry for what, exactly? For not providing better, alternative metrics? Apple dominates THESE ones every year. For what, well over a decade now. 

    If *these* reports aren't good enough for you, PROVIDE BETTER ONES. I can wait. Don't bother with a few anecdotal reports and folks' personal experiences because unless they're multiplied on a massive scale, they're worthless. There has *always* been a certain steady stream of complaints against Apple, traceable back to over a decade ago. And there always will be. This is normal. It'd be odd if there weren't. But unless they're quantifiably significant, all we have is *your* complaint and the metrics and reports we already have. Guess which one *I'm* taking seriously.

    But there's more. 

    If you can't provide better reports or statistical measures, and if you're not satisfied with THESE ones – you know, the ones we see every year and which Apple dominates, then all we can conclude is that we don't *actually* have enough information to draw ANY general conclusions about Apple's Q and A, now do we. 

    So then how is it even remotely justifiable to trash Apple's Q and A under these circumstances, unless you're a perfidious little shit (I'm speaking generally) that thinks THEIR problems are a reflection on Apple as a whole and is perfectly fine with posting in in kind, without any regard that there's actually a galaxy of reality outside their three feet of personal space and insignificant experience. 

    Lmao. The complete lack of sense in so much of the careless commentary about Apple is priceless. I mean Lmao. Really. 

    Thanks for your time. 
    Firstly some context and perspective.

    My reply was to your post, which in turn was to somebody else's which doubted Apple's levels of QA.

    You attempted to counter that person's claim with a series of links. The first of those links contained zero substantiated information. Nothing tangible. I explained why that link was worthless.

    Secondly, I was 'sorry' because I couldn't waste my time reading your other links because they might contain more unsubstantiated claims. If your first link was worthless (and I explained why) there wasn't much hope for the rest.

    Thirdly, it is YOU who is countering the other person's claim. Therefore, it is YOU who must back up your claim, NOT ME.

    Lastly, I have not doubted what you are saying, I have doubted how you are saying it and the logic behind it.

    You speak of 'careless comment' but your reply contained a link to a 'conclusion' that wasn't substantiated in ANY shape or form. You speak of 'anecdotal' evidence but that is exactly what your link presented.


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