Some Slight Changes to the Forums

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 142
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,946member
    avon b7 said:
    jeffdm said:
    I'm generally against making bubbles but it really does seem like the Apple haters are protected on what was previously an Apple enthusiast site, now it's wading through Apple hating BS on the forums. The haters will shit all over Apple on multiple threads, and even when rebutted they'll carry on in a different thread as if that never happened. But it's the ones calling them out on it that apparently gets the brunt of the moderation. So much cherry picking, pretzel logic and it's really insane, a handful of Apple haters really do have a run of the place. This used to be an enjoyable forum to participate in but increasingly over the years, it's like we have to put up with the acid wash from people that carry on like Apple is Always Wrong™. One certain individual seems to even have a fetish for telling us that Tim Cook is doing it all wrong and will bring it up in many threads not about Cook. There's a point that we don't need their kind of misinformed noise, seriously.
    I don't see Apple haters running rife through the forums and the forums themselves are not a place of Apple evangelism. They are a place of discussion. To discuss the good and the bad. One person's good might be another person's bad and vice versa. 

    Even a person who is seemingly critical of Apple is very probably an owner of one or more Apple devices, and as such, perfectly entitled to express an opinion.

    If you think there are true Apple haters here whose only goal is to bring Apple down, you can simply ignore them.

    In the opinion based threads you will see just that, opinions. A broad spread of different opinions with some defended better than others, some more passionate than others.

    If you perceive that there is more criticism of Apple or its products than before, then perhaps it is true and perhaps some of that criticism is justified. 

    The modifications mentioned in this thread seem more orientated to reducing abuse of some forum mechanisms (namely the dislike button), and not as a method to protect any one kind of user. 

    The explanation given was clearly explained and later defended and the changes themselves were fruit of a real, identifiable situation.
    I'm addressing the claimed root cause of why this policy is changing, which carries over to the issues I raised.

    I'm OK with people raising issues, the problem is how they tend to be raised, where people act like Apple kicked their puppy and they're going to go to Android now for some petty slight. The way they do it raises some astroturfing smells.

    Simply ignoring the haters doesn't work. The poison is still there and it's being normalized. And even if you block them other people quote the poison.

    Frankly, the level of intelligence would go up if mods would "man up" and dump SoG instead of protecting his antics.

    People are entitled to have an opinion, but expressing them toxicly against the core theme of the supposed community here doesn't do this forum any good. This is allegedly an Apple interest site and I don't see why it should be allowed to be used as a platform for Google advocacy. There's other sites for that.
    edited December 2016 williamlondon
  • Reply 42 of 142
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,360member
    This is a great change!

    Not that it ever stopped me from posting, but I actually had more dislikes than likes! :#

    Certain posters would constantly go and dislike any and all of my posts, just because they were from me. It hardly made a difference what I wrote.

    I could post a factual quote from an encyclopedia, and Boom! Automatic dislike from one of the usual crowd!

    Not anymore! B)

    Now posters have only 4 choices when it comes to my posts! They can either ignore it, or they can like it, or they can funny it or they can find it informative!

    Sounds good to me! :|
    SpamSandwichasdasd
  • Reply 43 of 142
    apple ][ said:
    This is a great change!

    Not that it ever stopped me from posting, but I actually had more dislikes than likes! :#

    Certain posters would constantly go and dislike any and all of my posts, just because they were from me. It hardly made a difference what I wrote.

    I could post a factual quote from an encyclopedia, and Boom! Automatic dislike from one of the usual crowd!

    Not anymore! B)

    Now posters have only 4 choices when it comes to my posts! They can either ignore it, or they can like it, or they can funny it or they can find it informative!

    Sounds good to me! :|
    Or be censored like me! But, only the outrageous righty fanatics are allowed to prevail, those that stick up for good are held to a different standard than you and your buddies.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 44 of 142
    apple ][ said:
    This is a great change!

    Not that it ever stopped me from posting, but I actually had more dislikes than likes! :#

    Certain posters would constantly go and dislike any and all of my posts, just because they were from me. It hardly made a difference what I wrote.

    I could post a factual quote from an encyclopedia, and Boom! Automatic dislike from one of the usual crowd!

    Not anymore! B)

    Now posters have only 4 choices when it comes to my posts! They can either ignore it, or they can like it, or they can funny it or they can find it informative!

    Sounds good to me! :|
    Or be censored like me! But, only the outrageous righty fanatics are allowed to prevail, those that stick up for good are held to a different standard than you and your buddies.
    What buddies?
    asdasd
  • Reply 45 of 142
    jSnivelyjSnively Posts: 325administrator
    apple ][ said:
    This is a great change!

    Not that it ever stopped me from posting, but I actually had more dislikes than likes! 

    Certain posters would constantly go and dislike any and all of my posts, just because they were from me. It hardly made a difference what I wrote.

    I could post a factual quote from an encyclopedia, and Boom! Automatic dislike from one of the usual crowd!

    Not anymore! 

    Now posters have only 4 choices when it comes to my posts! They can either ignore it, or they can like it, or they can funny it or they can find it informative!

    Sounds good to me! 
    Or be censored like me! But, only the outrageous righty fanatics are allowed to prevail, those that stick up for good are held to a different standard than you and your buddies.
    That's not what's happening. In fact, I've deleted a few of Apple ]['s posts today. Everyone is so quick to claim some sort of bias. We just put these new rules into effect a few days ago. We're not going to go back through the forums and mess with everyone's post history. If you see something we miss, then flag it. You don't "stand up for good" when you engage in an off-topic battle-of-the-wills.

    apple ][ said:
    This is a great change!

    Not that it ever stopped me from posting, but I actually had more dislikes than likes! 

    Certain posters would constantly go and dislike any and all of my posts, just because they were from me. It hardly made a difference what I wrote.

    I could post a factual quote from an encyclopedia, and Boom! Automatic dislike from one of the usual crowd!

    Not anymore! 

    Now posters have only 4 choices when it comes to my posts! They can either ignore it, or they can like it, or they can funny it or they can find it informative!

    Sounds good to me! 
    Potentially. You could also just end up with a lot more deleted posts

    apple ][ said:
    [...]
    [...]
    What buddies?
    if this were in a news thread, that would a great example of a post that would get deleted. Your only intent there is to rile up Apple][, or maybe get a few likes at his expense. It's a fundamentally worthless contribution, regardless of whether or not you feel he "deserves" it. (Almost) Everyone is on a clean slate as of a few days ago, we're looking at your output going forward.

    jeffdm said:

    [...]

    Frankly, the level of intelligence would go up if mods would "man up" and dump SoG instead of protecting his antics.

    People are entitled to have an opinion, but expressing them toxicly against the core theme of the supposed community here doesn't do this forum any good. This is allegedly an Apple interest site and I don't see why it should be allowed to be used as a platform for Google advocacy. There's other sites for that.
    Sog has been on timeout for a few days now. His posting had become extremely disruptive and allowed to go on for too long. It is being handled.

    Toxicity does not mean "does not agree with me". Just because we all like Apple doesn't mean Google can't do good things, and vice-versa. The companies complete in a lot of areas, and to compare and contrast offerings is not some horrible offense. Obviously we're going to lean towards the Apple way of doing things, but that doesn't mean we need to burn everyone at the stake who disagrees.

    We all have to be better. That's how this works, that's how this grows. We care deeply about the long-term health of these forums, and we respect that change is sometimes hard, especially for the people who have been around here the longest. If you have complaints or just things you want to keep confidential, please don't hesitate to PM me about it.

    edited December 2016 ai-dev
  • Reply 46 of 142
    nhtnht Posts: 4,331member
    jSnively said:

    That's not what's happening. In fact, I've deleted a few of Apple ]['s posts today. Everyone is so quick to claim some sort of bias. We just put these new rules into effect a few days ago. We're not going to go back through the forums and mess with everyone's post history. If you see something we miss, then flag it. You don't "stand up for good" when you engage in an off-topic battle-of-the-wills
    Potentially. You could also just end up with a lot more deleted posts

    jeffdm said:

    [...]

    Frankly, the level of intelligence would go up if mods would "man up" and dump SoG instead of protecting his antics.

    People are entitled to have an opinion, but expressing them toxicly against the core theme of the supposed community here doesn't do this forum any good. This is allegedly an Apple interest site and I don't see why it should be allowed to be used as a platform for Google advocacy. There's other sites for that.
    Sog has been on timeout for a few days now. His posting had become extremely disruptive and allowed to go on for too long. It is being handled.

    Toxicity does not mean "does not agree with me". Just because we all like Apple doesn't mean Google can't do good things, and vice-versa. The companies complete in a lot of areas, and to compare and contrast offerings is not some horrible offense. Obviously we're going to lean towards the Apple way of doing things, but that doesn't mean we need to burn everyone at the stake who disagrees.

    We all have to be better. That's how this works, that's how this grows. We care deeply about the long-term health of these forums, and we respect that change is sometimes hard, especially for the people who have been around here the longest. If you have complaints or just things you want to keep confidential, please don't hesitate to PM me about it.

    I suggest you make the number of bans, posts edited or removed visible as well as the reasons why.  That will likely more quickly change behaviors if folks can obviously see active moderation and what behaviors are unacceptable.

    Toxicity IMHO includes repetitive Cook and Ive bashing as well as general negativity on anything Apple does.  The piling on I've seen here is more of the Apple is doomed because Tim and Jony are incompetent and should/will be replaced.

    Folks that do nothing BUT criticize Apple really have no place here. That's not discussion or commentary.  That's deliberately going into a enthusiast forum and constantly pissing in other people's cherrios because their own life sucks and they derive pathetic pleasure in being annoying.  

    Apple has a certain way of doing things and it has been that way for over a decade.  If you don't like the trend for thinner and more sealed devices BUY SOMETHING ELSE AND BE HAPPY IN THIER FORUM.  Not haunt this one and be pissy in every frigging news thread.
    SpamSandwichwilliamlondonpscooter63
  • Reply 47 of 142
    nhtnht Posts: 4,331member
    Mike called me out on using an ad blocker (despite the denial that he was not actually doing so) but the use of an ad blocker doesn't impact either DaringFireball or the Loop.  Yes, they enjoy different revenue models (and levels of expense) but you can have ads that aren't annoying.

    As I messaged him, I'll stop using an ad blocker when ads here aren't so annoying.  I still see the B&H ads as well as Apple Deals & Discounts as well as the AppleInsider 2016 Holiday Gift Guide banner ad.

    I have paid for lifetime membership at sites like AVSForum.  I would do so here if the price was reasonable for an ad free experience and whatever minor extra bennies you can provide (extra discounts at B&H etc).  Heck if you re enable the dislike button for paying members that would be worth it. :)  I think I paid $50 at the time for a lifetime membership which was like $5 a year for a normal membership.

    I don't know how long it takes you to earn $50 off me but given I don't click on ads anyway it's probably a long freaking time.
  • Reply 48 of 142
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 19,699member
    nht said:

     Heck if you re enable the dislike button for paying members that would be worth it. :)
    All the complaints about the silly "dislike" entirely miss the point that using it instead of responding to a post that uses incorrect claims or facts does you and other Apple fans a disservice. Casual readers who are not members don't see the dislikes/likes, and allowing false information to go unchallenged may make it appear to be valid. If you don't agree with something that was said putting words to it actually serves a purpose. An anonymous "Dislike" did nothing except as a lazy way out that requires zero reasoning. It didn't tell even members if a post was factual. All it did was indicate "we don't like your kind here" in effect.

    AI did fine before "Dislikes" were an option, which wasn't very long ago as long-time members know, and will do better without them now IMHO. We used to have much better discussions without it than what I've been reading for the past few months. Adding the apparently more active moderation and I truly believe the quality is going to improve dramatically. 
  • Reply 49 of 142
    jSnivelyjSnively Posts: 325administrator
    nht said:
    Mike called me out on using an ad blocker (despite the denial that he was not actually doing so) but the use of an ad blocker doesn't impact either DaringFireball or the Loop.  Yes, they enjoy different revenue models (and levels of expense) but you can have ads that aren't annoying.

    As I messaged him, I'll stop using an ad blocker when ads here aren't so annoying.  I still see the B&H ads as well as Apple Deals & Discounts as well as the AppleInsider 2016 Holiday Gift Guide banner ad.

    I have paid for lifetime membership at sites like AVSForum.  I would do so here if the price was reasonable for an ad free experience and whatever minor extra bennies you can provide (extra discounts at B&H etc).  Heck if you re enable the dislike button for paying members that would be worth it. I think I paid $50 at the time for a lifetime membership which was like $5 a year for a normal membership.

    I don't know how long it takes you to earn $50 off me but given I don't click on ads anyway it's probably a long freaking time.
    We are working on expanding our subscription service sometime next year. Right now it only applies to the app, which is a bummer. That was our initial testing grounds, and It honestly didn't do very well, so we backed off of it to focus on other projects. I don't have too much to say about that now, I will sometime in 2017.

    Different staff members have different positions on ad blockers. Neil wrote a great piece a while ago on it. We do try and make sure nothing break-breaks if you run a blocker, but there are a couple outstanding issues we are aware of. For example, if you see blobs of forum comments without paragraph breaks, it's usually they created them from within the embed on the main site with an ad blocker running.

    If you do choose to use a blocker, keep in mind that as ad blocker use increases, we have very few options. We do try to look for newer and reliable revenue streams, but that is a tough nut to crack. It has been a while since I last checked, but ad blocking use was around 40%. Apples decision to allow blockers on iOS this past year have been devastating to us. The situation just sucks for everyone involved. 

    This is a problem for the entire industry, and there is no simple fix. We don't expect you guys to do anything about it, it's our problem as a business and as a company. We are an independent publisher however, and that means we don't have the coffers of a Condé Nast, or millions of dollars in VC to just burn through like Vox media. We don't have an "ad team" and we don't do "advertorial". If you see a deals post, it's very clear what that is.

    I see the "I don't click ads anyway" thing a lot; That's not really how it works. Most sites (like ours) use a standard CPM model - that is we are paid for impressions (in groups of 1000), not clicks. There are exceptions, but any "standard" ad network ads you see on the site are going to be view-based. Our partnerships with Apple resellers like Adorama and B&H are generally commission based, meaning you actually have to buy something for us to make any money.

    Hope that helps clear up any confusion.

    Also, (and I regret not typing this out originally) for anyone who is deep enough in this thread to read this, it is way more valuable (and important) to us that you not only read AI, but have also gone the extra steps to interact with the community.

    nht said:
    jSnively said:

    [...]
    I suggest you make the number of bans, posts edited or removed visible as well as the reasons why.  That will likely more quickly change behaviors if folks can obviously see active moderation and what behaviors are unacceptable.
    We're not looking to air everyone's dirty laundry out in public. We are happy to speak one-on one with any user, but our intent is to increase post quality, not shame people away. I deleted a few posts today I thought were probably fine, but enough users reported them, and they caused enough problems via people's reactions that I took them down.

    I can't stress enough that if something of yours gets pulled and you're not sure why, please don't hesitate to PM me.
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 50 of 142
    nhtnht Posts: 4,331member
    gatorguy said:
    nht said:

     Heck if you re enable the dislike button for paying members that would be worth it. :)
    All the complaints about the silly "dislike" entirely miss the point that using it instead of responding to a post that uses incorrect claims or facts does you and other Apple fans a disservice. Casual readers who are not members don't see the dislikes/likes, and allowing false information to go unchallenged may make it appear to be valid. If you don't agree with something that was said putting words to it actually serves a purpose. An anonymous "Dislike" did nothing except as a lazy way out that requires zero reasoning. It didn't tell even members if a post was factual. All it did was indicate "we don't like your kind here" in effect.

    AI did fine before "Dislikes" were an option, which wasn't very long ago as long-time members know, and will do better without them now IMHO. We used to have much better discussions without it than what I've been reading for the past few months. Adding the apparently more active moderation and I truly believe the quality is going to improve dramatically. 
    It is exceedingly tedious to read the opinion that Tim Cook is an idiot for the umpteenth time in response to every Apple move.

    Given that "Tim Cook is an idiot" or "Tim Cook is ruining apple" is an opinion what factual refutation do you suggest?  The fact that Apple remains a highly profitable company with the lion's share of profits in many of the segments it competes in is already well known and documented.

    That the complaints against the current MBP read like complaints against the first retina MBP (too expensive, too thin, etc) in 2013 means that folks who are complaining are either extremely slow learners or just trolling. 

    So why not "we don't like your kind here"?  Its a lot like going into a BMW forum to diss BMWs while extolling the virtues of the Shelby GT350. Ya think that might not be a bit annoying?  Or a Nikon forum to extoll the virtues of Panasonic and m43 if you hate cars.

    Gruber says negative things about Apple and he's the uber fanboy.  So it's not that negative comments or criticisms are unwelcome but folks that for whatever reason hate Apple and Apple products but want to hang around and be negative about every thing.  Why is it not okay to say "we don't like your kind here"?  If you hate BMW or Nikon why would you hang around their forums?
    williamlondon
  • Reply 51 of 142
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 19,699member
    nht said:
    gatorguy said:
    nht said:

     Heck if you re enable the dislike button for paying members that would be worth it. :)
    All the complaints about the silly "dislike" entirely miss the point that using it instead of responding to a post that uses incorrect claims or facts does you and other Apple fans a disservice. Casual readers who are not members don't see the dislikes/likes, and allowing false information to go unchallenged may make it appear to be valid. If you don't agree with something that was said putting words to it actually serves a purpose. An anonymous "Dislike" did nothing except as a lazy way out that requires zero reasoning. It didn't tell even members if a post was factual. All it did was indicate "we don't like your kind here" in effect.

    AI did fine before "Dislikes" were an option, which wasn't very long ago as long-time members know, and will do better without them now IMHO. We used to have much better discussions without it than what I've been reading for the past few months. Adding the apparently more active moderation and I truly believe the quality is going to improve dramatically. 
    It is exceedingly tedious to read the opinion that Tim Cook is an idiot for the umpteenth time in response to every Apple move.

    Given that "Tim Cook is an idiot" or "Tim Cook is ruining apple" is an opinion what factual refutation do you suggest?  The fact that Apple remains a highly profitable company with the lion's share of profits in many of the segments it competes in is already well known and documented.

    That the complaints against the current MBP read like complaints against the first retina MBP (too expensive, too thin, etc) in 2013 means that folks who are complaining are either extremely slow learners or just trolling. 

    So why not "we don't like your kind here"?  Its a lot like going into a BMW forum to diss BMWs while extolling the virtues of the Shelby GT350. Ya think that might not be a bit annoying?  Or a Nikon forum to extoll the virtues of Panasonic and m43 if you hate cars.

    Gruber says negative things about Apple and he's the uber fanboy.  So it's not that negative comments or criticisms are unwelcome but folks that for whatever reason hate Apple and Apple products but want to hang around and be negative about every thing.  Why is it not okay to say "we don't like your kind here"?  If you hate BMW or Nikon why would you hang around their forums?
    What you seem to be describing would be an obvious troll. Every forum gets 'em and down-voting doesn't make them go away. Even casual readers recognize one when they see them. Ignore and report is the best advice IMHO as it looks like AI is being very responsive to valid complaints about specific posts and or new members. 
  • Reply 52 of 142
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,969member
    @jSnively is the practice of banning users for violations still in effect? I have not seen one banned user since the switch to this new layout. Benjamin Frost was permanently banned because of his incessant hatred towards the Apple Watch, so why hasn't anyone else? 

    Criticism is one thing, and bashing is another. I kinda like sog35 when he's not being obtuse, but until he gets a slap on the hand for his TC bashing rhetoric he is going to continue. 
    pscooter63
  • Reply 53 of 142
    jSnivelyjSnively Posts: 325administrator
    gatorguy said:
    nht said:
    [..]
    What you seem to be describing would be an obvious troll. Every forum gets 'em and down-voting doesn't make them go away. Even casual readers recognize one when they see them. Ignore and report is the best advice IMHO as it looks like AI is being very responsive to valid complaints about specific posts and or new members. 
    It's a pattern we see. Ideally we would like that stuff to not happen at all, but a new user coming in isn't going to see it as part of the pattern. A lot of it is going to depend on the content of the post. If it's "hur hur Cookie sucky", then yeah that's going to get deleted. If it's more along the lines of "I wish Cook would address issue x,y,z because i feel like Apple has z,y,x" then it's less likely to get outright deleted. Those types of posts can lead to productive and interesting conversations. If the conversation around them turns to garbage, however, then we delete them along with any direct replies.

    @jSnively is the practice of banning users for violations still in effect? I have not seen one banned user since the switch to this new layout. Benjamin Frost was permanently banned because of his incessant hatred towards the Apple Watch, so why hasn't anyone else? 

    Criticism is one thing, and bashing is another. I kinda like sog35 when he's not being obtuse, but until he gets a slap on the hand for his TC bashing rhetoric he is going to continue. 
    We will ban people as a last resort, yeah. I'm not familiar with the Benjamin Frost situation. It was likely before I was paying any attention to what was going on in the forums. Perhaps @Marvin could speak to that? He should have been a mod around that time frame.

    I already commented on Sog. I would really prefer it if the thread didn't around a single individual though.
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 54 of 142
    Not exactly sure if this would be the thread to add this, but are everyone else's headlines looking like this (especially with longer text descriptions)? Notice how the text is cutoff?


  • Reply 55 of 142
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,195moderator
    jSnively said:
    We will ban people as a last resort, yeah. I'm not familiar with the Benjamin Frost situation. It was likely before I was paying any attention to what was going on in the forums. Perhaps @Marvin could speak to that? He should have been a mod around that time frame.
    He was banned mainly for his offensive comments, which not everyone saw as they were removed. He also became more of a nuisance poster over time by deliberately trying to annoy other members of the forum and some members are easily irritated by certain posting styles. Everybody on the forum reads the same comments but don't have the same reaction to them. This is more to do with how people present their opinions than what their opinions are. It's an ongoing cycle where groups of members tend to focus their attention on the member that is irritating them most. Take here for example in early 2015, where sog35 was talking about blocking Benjamin Frost and little attention was paid to sog35:

    http://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/comment/2692808/#Comment_2692808

    With Benjamin Frost gone, people then refocus their attention on someone else who annoys them. The aim would be to eventually quarantine the group. An open forum has a lot of different personalities that all want different things. Some want a quiet place to discuss things with like-minded people, others want news/information whether good or bad, some people want to debate, others want to fight. As long as the discussion stays civilized then it should accommodate everybody's input.
    jSnivelygatorguyavon b7
  • Reply 56 of 142
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,070member
    nht said:
    gatorguy said:
    nht said:

     Heck if you re enable the dislike button for paying members that would be worth it.
    All the complaints about the silly "dislike" entirely miss the point that using it instead of responding to a post that uses incorrect claims or facts does you and other Apple fans a disservice. Casual readers who are not members don't see the dislikes/likes, and allowing false information to go unchallenged may make it appear to be valid. If you don't agree with something that was said putting words to it actually serves a purpose. An anonymous "Dislike" did nothing except as a lazy way out that requires zero reasoning. It didn't tell even members if a post was factual. All it did was indicate "we don't like your kind here" in effect.

    AI did fine before "Dislikes" were an option, which wasn't very long ago as long-time members know, and will do better without them now IMHO. We used to have much better discussions without it than what I've been reading for the past few months. Adding the apparently more active moderation and I truly believe the quality is going to improve dramatically. 
    It is exceedingly tedious to read the opinion that Tim Cook is an idiot for the umpteenth time in response to every Apple move.

    Given that "Tim Cook is an idiot" or "Tim Cook is ruining apple" is an opinion what factual refutation do you suggest?  The fact that Apple remains a highly profitable company with the lion's share of profits in many of the segments it competes in is already well known and documented.

    That the complaints against the current MBP read like complaints against the first retina MBP (too expensive, too thin, etc) in 2013 means that folks who are complaining are either extremely slow learners or just trolling. 

    So why not "we don't like your kind here"?  Its a lot like going into a BMW forum to diss BMWs while extolling the virtues of the Shelby GT350. Ya think that might not be a bit annoying?  Or a Nikon forum to extoll the virtues of Panasonic and m43 if you hate cars.

    Gruber says negative things about Apple and he's the uber fanboy.  So it's not that negative comments or criticisms are unwelcome but folks that for whatever reason hate Apple and Apple products but want to hang around and be negative about every thing.  Why is it not okay to say "we don't like your kind here"?  If you hate BMW or Nikon why would you hang around their forums?
    I don't see the Apple haters that you are referring to and to label people as such is a mistake. You cannot judge someone as an Apple hater if they have iPad, iPhones and Macs in their home, and that is something you cannot possibly know. They may be critical of Apple and give their reasons. If they do it, while defending their opinion and without insulting anyone in the process, it shouldn't be a problem. 

    Likewise the phrase 'we don't like your kind here', whatever it's justification, is also a mistake as the 'we' may not be representative. It is not for one or various members to decide who is welcome and who isn't.

    The only people that can say that are the moderators and the administrators and they are there to moderate.

    The dislike button has been removed in part due to misuse. Even to the casual visitor it was clear that it was sometimes being used on personal grounds by some members and not on grounds of the posts themselves (the 'we don't want your kind' situation). It devalues the whole point of having a dislike button or anything similar.

    There are forum mechanisms to simply ignore posters if you believe a person is an Apple hater. I believe the ignore list can now list more users.

    Since the release of the new MBPs the amount of criticism directed at them and Apple on the internet  has not been insignificant. It has been by all accounts unprecedented. That in itself should tell you something. If you look closely at many of the writers, bloggers comentators and commenters you will see that they are mostly Mac users. What you see in some threads here is the proportional representation of that criticism. You might not agree with what they say but if you choose not to ignore those opinions you should offer up your own view but without resorting to labelling those members as whiners, idiots, bitchers etc. It adds nothing to the discussion and often provokes a response in a similar tone. These 'yous' are impersonal.

    If we speak of patterns in the threads, there is definitely and pattern that sees a critical voice quickly labelled a whiner etc without even attempting to listen to what was really said or read it in the appropriate context.

    Beyond the new MBPs there have been several issues that have led to still more criticism of Apple, both in software and hardware. AI has itself has posted pieces based on rumours which of course leads to speculation in the comments and in turn to more criticism (although proportional IMO). Much of it also valid. No one should have any problems with that.

    AI is not a paradise for Mac lovers where naysayers are not welcome or get hounded out and I think that was made pretty clear in the thread opener. Yes, it is a place where Mac users can come to get news, information and help and participate freely in discussion. That discussion will flow in various directions and will inevitably include criticism. Some threads will have more than others and will peak around certain Apple moves.

    For example the criticism on price may subside when prices actually come down. Perhaps the same thing happened with the Retina Macs rollout. If you take a snapshot of the forums today you will see a healthy amount of criticism but they aren't rife with it. Some individual threads may be but in global forum terms I just can't see it, or the Apple haters.

    Shortly, the year will be up for evaluation and not long after that, the next earnings call will bring some solid numbers to the table for us to chew on. The forums will no doubt be bubbling with opinions over the next few weeks.
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 57 of 142
    jSnivelyjSnively Posts: 325administrator
    Not exactly sure if this would be the thread to add this, but are everyone else's headlines looking like this (especially with longer text descriptions)? Notice how the text is cutoff?


    Haha, Dan's title was too long for the forums. Publisher has been updated to truncate with '...' : )
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 58 of 142
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,360member
    I made a post a few minutes ago to this thread:

    http://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/197754/

    Shortly after I posted, I noticed that a few lines in the middle of my reply were edited out, removed and censored. The rest of my reply remains intact.

    The lines that were censored out was my commentary on the people who complain and whine about the $10 price tag for the super mario run app.

    I wasn't attacking any specific user, and was that against the rules or something? That sort of censorship seems to be rather heavy handed, if one is not allowed to express their opinions, if one is not breaking any rules and their reply is on topic.

    In the future, I would prefer to just have my entire post erased, deleted and censored, instead of just removing a few lines from my posts, as that can change the entire meaning and intent of what I posted. I think that what I posted was very relevant, especially in this age of freemium games and certain entitled people.

    I can understand certain political posts and off topic posts getting censored, but I am surprised that my particular reply in that thread was censored, as it's probably one of the mildest and on topic things that I've ever written here, and I also think that I made a good point. That's why I wrote it.

    If what I wrote was too offensive for somebody, to the point of it being removed and deleted, then I believe that there's not much of a future for me here. I just went back and deleted the rest of my reply, including the intact part that was not censored.
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 59 of 142
    jSnivelyjSnively Posts: 325administrator
    apple ][ said:
    I made a post a few minutes ago to this thread:

    http://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/197754/

    Shortly after I posted, I noticed that a few lines in the middle of my reply were edited out, removed and censored. The rest of my reply remains intact.

    The lines that were censored out was my commentary on the people who complain and whine about the $10 price tag for the super mario run app.

    I wasn't attacking any specific user, and was that against the rules or something? That sort of censorship seems to be rather heavy handed, if one is not allowed to express their opinions, if one is not breaking any rules and their reply is on topic.

    In the future, I would prefer to just have my entire post erased, deleted and censored, instead of just removing a few lines from my posts, as that can change the entire meaning and intent of what I posted. I think that what I posted was very relevant, especially in this age of freemium games and certain entitled people.

    I can understand certain political posts and off topic posts getting censored, but I am surprised that my particular reply in that thread was censored, as it's probably one of the mildest and on topic things that I've ever written here, and I also think that I made a good point. That's why I wrote it.

    If what I wrote was too offensive for somebody, to the point of it being removed and deleted, then I believe that there's not much of a future for me here.

    I thought you had some good points in there, so i didn't want to remove it completely. You can't just insult a whole swath of users and complain about posts you think will appear. The first post too, like that's not going to derail the entire thing. It was super bait-y language. Not everyone who disagrees with you is an "entitled", "cheap", "whiner", "idiot". People assign different values to money based on their circumstances, and while you may be well-off enough to afford "$75 apps", a $10 app purchase can mean a lot more to someone else. They don't deserve to be "smacked down" for that.

    I happen to agree with you that not being willing to pay the $10 price point only serves as a reminder of some of the very real problems with the app ecosystem (especially when it comes to the valuation of games), but I would not belittle people for it.

    I went ahead and removed the post completely for you. Going forward, we will simply delete any inappropriate posts you make instead of sanitizing them. That's less work for us anyway ; )

    edited December 2016
  • Reply 60 of 142
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,360member
    jSnively said:
    I went ahead and removed the post completely for you. Going forward, we will simply delete any inappropriate posts you make instead of sanitizing them. That's less work for us anyway ; )
    I have a feeling that a considerable percentage of my posts will have to be sanitized, as I have never been shy to state what I believe, and I am always willing to back up what I believe and argue in favor of my viewpoints.

    If the new direction of the site means that certain kinds of opinions will have to be 'sanitized', then I don't have a problem with that, it is up to the site owners how they wish to run their site after all.

    But it is obvious to me that a person such as myself, who is often politically incorrect, will no longer be a good fit, with the new direction.

    I wont burden anybody with having to 'sanitize' any of my posts anymore, because I wont post here anymore, and that'll be even less work for anybody involved.

    For what it's worth, I do still believe that this is the best Apple related news site, and I will still check in and read it from time to time. I just wont post anymore, because I'm just not a very 'sanitary' person, at least when it comes to my viewpoints and my words. I can't change who I am or what I believe in.
    edited December 2016 singularity
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