Touch Bar keyboards, 'modest' Mac upgrades on Apple's slate for 2017

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 59
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile

    Same for Apple, that focus so much in mobile, because it feeds their cash cows (iOS devices).


    Sorry holmes. Microsoft has sold so few Surface Studios that they won't even mention how many units they sold. Surface Studio is a niche product or a niche product. 


    My reply was to your post,

    "The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) "

    Windows / Office aren't niche products.  The Surface Studio is a niche device, focused in designers and artists. But it's interesting how the "niche" device showed how slow Apple have become in innovation.  They proved that desktop touchscreen are usable, while Apple went with the toaster / fridge "logic".   
    WRONG.

    Microsoft still has not proven a touch desktop is usable. They have sold so few Surface Studio units, it has proven NOTHING. 

    When Microsoft is selling tens of millions of touch desktops then we can talk.
    If sales numbers is what define what is usable, then macOS is completely useless compared to Windows, same as Android, which is ahead of iOS.
    sales numbers isn't everything.

    But when a device only sales a couple thousand units, that is not enough proof that the device is successful.

    Over the last 5 years, Apple has sold well over 70 million Mac's. There is not question the Mac platform is here to stay. Can't say the same thing about the Surface Studio
    You say sales aren't everything, but then point to the 70M Mac's that were sold.  Lenovo, HP and Dell sold far more devices than that.  Does that mean Mac's are useless? 

    I remember a lot of people here saying that the Surface line will be dead by now, because touch screen in a notebook was useless, and they were wrong.  It is very expensive, and may never sell to the iMac levels (which isn't that big either, compared to sales of HP, Dell and Lenovo).  What it's clear is that MS made a big impact with the Surface Studio.

    Google for Surface Studio reviews, and you'll see that most of them are very positive.  So it looks like based in the experience of those users, it has been a success.  And that's the V1 of the product. 




    Surface Studio has made ZERO impact with the public. 
    It only impacted desperate tech writers who need to write something.

    Just stop. Surface Studio is not selling at all. That's why we don't get ANY unit sales.  Same with the entire Surface line. We get ZERO unit numbers.
    Why bring again that the Surface Studio is not selling?  Do you remember your line "sales numbers isn't everything"?  Read the reviews, go to a MS Store o purchase one, try it and then you'll have an idea of the experience.  But don't make assumptions based in sales numbers. 
    snype719
  • Reply 42 of 59
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile

    Same for Apple, that focus so much in mobile, because it feeds their cash cows (iOS devices).


    Sorry holmes. Microsoft has sold so few Surface Studios that they won't even mention how many units they sold. Surface Studio is a niche product or a niche product. 


    My reply was to your post,

    "The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) "

    Windows / Office aren't niche products.  The Surface Studio is a niche device, focused in designers and artists. But it's interesting how the "niche" device showed how slow Apple have become in innovation.  They proved that desktop touchscreen are usable, while Apple went with the toaster / fridge "logic".   

    I don't see Sog saying that Windows/ Office are niche products. He seems to say they are Microsoft's cash cows.
    I tried to point out that Windows/Office sales are far larger than the Surface Studio, so it's obvious they are their cash cows. 

    I read the line again, and it's confusing.  English is not my main language, and it looks like I need to practice a little more...  :)
  • Reply 43 of 59
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 2,075member
    zoetmb said:

    I do agree that Apple should bring back a tower configuration that is completely modular and can be configured, maintained and repaired by end-users.   But they won't, because Apple is still a very arrogant company and Ive doesn't like doors or seams.  But even if they did, I wouldn't expect it to sell very well, but it would sell to programmers and techies and the like and by creating a machine that they actually want and like, would gain Apple some credibility. 
    That would be great, unfortunately Jony Ive is too busy going over new Apple Watch bands.
    snype719
  • Reply 44 of 59
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:

    Surface Studio has made ZERO impact with the public. 
    It only impacted desperate tech writers who need to write something.

    Just stop. Surface Studio is not selling at all. That's why we don't get ANY unit sales.  Same with the entire Surface line. We get ZERO unit numbers.
    Why bring again that the Surface Studio is not selling?  Do you remember your line "sales numbers isn't everything"?  Read the reviews, go to a MS Store o purchase one, try it and then you'll have an idea of the experience.  But don't make assumptions based in sales numbers. 
    Because the studio is a competitor to the Cintiq  + computer.  Not a competitor to just a computer due to cost.  As such it has no real impact to Apple but rather Wacom.  This is no different than a new server offering by Dell or HP.  It can be really nice, make money and get great reviews but Apple isn't much impacted.

    The odds that Apple loses any significant amount of Mac sales due to the Surface is minimal. Artists with deep pockets already own a Cintiq.  Only is Wacom doesn't improve its own product line is there some risk of erosion

    Is it "innovative"?  Yes.  These types of improvements are all innovative even if folks scoff "it's just an iMac with a Wacom digitizer".  Is it going to cause a major paradigm shift like the iPhone or even iPad?  Nope.

    Surface Pro and SurfaceBook are more relevant to Apple but more so for Microsoft as an almost billion dollar ($926M) per quarter product line.  Which is nice for any company even a $20B one like MS or a $78B one like Apple.

    Assuming an ASP of $2K that means MS booked 463K Surface sales last qtr.  That may seems small in comparison to 4.8M macs sold but it's in the same product category as the MB and MBA with high ASPs so MS is likely deservedly happy.
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 45 of 59
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 


    Innovation isn't the problem. Selling them in quantities to make them worthwhile is the problem. Microsoft hasn't done that yet.

    Agree, MS has no problem with innovation, Apple does.  And if you think quantities is the issue, then Apple has that too, when you consider how far ahead are HP, Dell and Lenovo in "quantities".


    Nothing you said refutes anything Rayz2016 just said. He asks if it they are selling enough to justify making the Surface Studios. You are just saying "Apple doesn't sell much either! nyah! nyah!".

    Could it be that Apple hasn't updated the Mac Pro because it isn't selling much? It probably isn't worth the effort? If that is the case, then it fits with Rayz2016's statement - make items that sell.

    Maybe you didn't noticed that I didn't meant to reply to @Rayz2016.  My opinion is that the Surface Studio was never meant to be a big seller, considering it starts at USD$3000.00.  But still a great move from MS, that showed that innovation in the desktop market is possible. 
  • Reply 46 of 59
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,799member
    sog35 said:

    The MacPro is a niche product, so you can't expect them to update that every year.
    Historically they have updated it as follows:
    2006
    2008
    2009
    2010
    2012
    2013

    Sometimes every year. Other times, every two years. Prior to the current model I feel it has been a popular and well received machine. This time though they are at three years and counting between updates, but I'm hopeful that a redesign is in the works, however I'm sure politically within Apple it is a touchy subject since I don't think Jony's design was very popular with the pro market and a complete redesign after only one release would probably bruise his ego.
    edited December 2016 snype719
  • Reply 47 of 59
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile

    Same for Apple, that focus so much in mobile, because it feeds their cash cows (iOS devices).


    Sorry holmes. Microsoft has sold so few Surface Studios that they won't even mention how many units they sold. Surface Studio is a niche product or a niche product. 


    My reply was to your post,

    "The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) "

    Windows / Office aren't niche products.  The Surface Studio is a niche device, focused in designers and artists. But it's interesting how the "niche" device showed how slow Apple have become in innovation.  They proved that desktop touchscreen are usable, while Apple went with the toaster / fridge "logic".   
    i don't think the touch screen desktop has been proven useful yet. my in laws had one and it was useless. just showing a big surface for illustrators doesn't make it useful to normal people. thus the low sales. 
  • Reply 48 of 59

    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 


    Innovation isn't the problem. Selling them in quantities to make them worthwhile is the problem. Microsoft hasn't done that yet.

    Agree, MS has no problem with innovation, Apple does.  And if you think quantities is the issue, then Apple has that too, when you consider how far ahead are HP, Dell and Lenovo in "quantities".
    Is this bizzaro day? Apple releases far more innovative products than MS. macbook air, superior notebook touch pads, the iphone, ipad, retina screens, siri, touch ID, the watch, 3D touch, wide color gamut screens, true tone screens, touch bar, the new screens in the MBP, AirPods, etc etc... their hardware innovation is much richer than you may think and marches on steadily. 
    watto_cobrasnype719
  • Reply 49 of 59

    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile

    Same for Apple, that focus so much in mobile, because it feeds their cash cows (iOS devices).


    Sorry holmes. Microsoft has sold so few Surface Studios that they won't even mention how many units they sold. Surface Studio is a niche product or a niche product. 


    My reply was to your post,

    "The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) "

    Windows / Office aren't niche products.  The Surface Studio is a niche device, focused in designers and artists. But it's interesting how the "niche" device showed how slow Apple have become in innovation.  They proved that desktop touchscreen are usable, while Apple went with the toaster / fridge "logic".   
    WRONG.

    Microsoft still has not proven a touch desktop is usable. They have sold so few Surface Studio units, it has proven NOTHING. 

    When Microsoft is selling tens of millions of touch desktops then we can talk.
    If sales numbers is what define what is usable, then macOS is completely useless compared to Windows, same as Android, which is ahead of iOS.
    sales numbers isn't everything.

    But when a device only sales a couple thousand units, that is not enough proof that the device is successful.

    Over the last 5 years, Apple has sold well over 70 million Mac's. There is not question the Mac platform is here to stay. Can't say the same thing about the Surface Studio
    You say sales aren't everything, but then point to the 70M Mac's that were sold.  Lenovo, HP and Dell sold far more devices than that.  Does that mean Mac's are useless? 
    You need to reach a critical mass to establish success. Macs, despite being less than all the other PC makers put together, have quite obviously reach a critical mass threshold. The studio has not. One reaching critical mass doesn't somehow make another not. But not doing it all does. Surface hasn't sold yet, perhaps ever. 
    edited December 2016 watto_cobra
  • Reply 50 of 59
    dacloo said:
    Gimmick? Have you used to the Touch Bar? 
    Well, have you? Because you're mention 'reviews point out it's great'.

    I have the new MacBook Pro and I can tell you it's a gimmick. It's dumb. Instead of feeling the function keys (muscle memory), you now have to look at the keyboard to search for it!

    Apple clearly ignored people don't look at the keyboard and type 'blindly'.
    The Touch Bar gets into sleep mode as well, so sometimes that means I have to tap the bar repeaditly to wake it up. How's that intuitive and 'added value'? The only 'added value' is for Apple: around $300 to be precise.

    This should have stayed in their R&D lab as a failed experiment, which would have been fine.

    Related note: the keyboard is LOUD. Not ideal for meetings and at conferences.
    I've used it but i'm not the one claiming it's a gimmick, which is why I'm asking whether they have (plenty of people claim Apple Feature X is a gimmick without having used it or owned it). I weigh people's opinions based on their relevant experience with a thing. Reviews say it's great and not a gimmick. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 51 of 59
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile

    Same for Apple, that focus so much in mobile, because it feeds their cash cows (iOS devices).


    Sorry holmes. Microsoft has sold so few Surface Studios that they won't even mention how many units they sold. Surface Studio is a niche product or a niche product. 


    My reply was to your post,

    "The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) "

    Windows / Office aren't niche products.  The Surface Studio is a niche device, focused in designers and artists. But it's interesting how the "niche" device showed how slow Apple have become in innovation.  They proved that desktop touchscreen are usable, while Apple went with the toaster / fridge "logic".   
    WRONG.

    Microsoft still has not proven a touch desktop is usable. They have sold so few Surface Studio units, it has proven NOTHING. 

    When Microsoft is selling tens of millions of touch desktops then we can talk.
    If sales numbers is what define what is usable, then macOS is completely useless compared to Windows, same as Android, which is ahead of iOS.
    sales numbers isn't everything.

    But when a device only sales a couple thousand units, that is not enough proof that the device is successful.

    Over the last 5 years, Apple has sold well over 70 million Mac's. There is not question the Mac platform is here to stay. Can't say the same thing about the Surface Studio
    You say sales aren't everything, but then point to the 70M Mac's that were sold.  Lenovo, HP and Dell sold far more devices than that.  Does that mean Mac's are useless? 

    I remember a lot of people here saying that the Surface line will be dead by now, because touch screen in a notebook was useless, and they were wrong.  It is very expensive, and may never sell to the iMac levels (which isn't that big either, compared to sales of HP, Dell and Lenovo).  What it's clear is that MS made a big impact with the Surface Studio.

    Google for Surface Studio reviews, and you'll see that most of them are very positive.  So it looks like based in the experience of those users, it has been a success.  And that's the V1 of the product. 




    Surface Studio has made ZERO impact with the public. 
    It only impacted desperate tech writers who need to write something.

    Just stop. Surface Studio is not selling at all. That's why we don't get ANY unit sales.  Same with the entire Surface line. We get ZERO unit numbers.
    Why bring again that the Surface Studio is not selling?  Do you remember your line "sales numbers isn't everything"?  Read the reviews, go to a MS Store o purchase one, try it and then you'll have an idea of the experience.  But don't make assumptions based in sales numbers. 
    One needn't buy every new product personally to observe whether it's successful or not. People vote with their wallets -- they aren't gonna buy a premium computer if it's not adding value. If Studio doesn't sell in big numbers of any sort we can safely conclude it's a lame product. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 52 of 59

    danvm said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 


    Innovation isn't the problem. Selling them in quantities to make them worthwhile is the problem. Microsoft hasn't done that yet.

    Agree, MS has no problem with innovation, Apple does.  And if you think quantities is the issue, then Apple has that too, when you consider how far ahead are HP, Dell and Lenovo in "quantities".


    Nothing you said refutes anything Rayz2016 just said. He asks if it they are selling enough to justify making the Surface Studios. You are just saying "Apple doesn't sell much either! nyah! nyah!".

    Could it be that Apple hasn't updated the Mac Pro because it isn't selling much? It probably isn't worth the effort? If that is the case, then it fits with Rayz2016's statement - make items that sell.

    Maybe you didn't noticed that I didn't meant to reply to @Rayz2016.  My opinion is that the Surface Studio was never meant to be a big seller, considering it starts at USD$3000.00.  But still a great move from MS, that showed that innovation in the desktop market is possible. 
    Yeah, I can see that product pitch meeting now -- "It'll be great! But it won't be a big seller, is that cool?" blank stares. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 53 of 59
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile

    Same for Apple, that focus so much in mobile, because it feeds their cash cows (iOS devices).


    Sorry holmes. Microsoft has sold so few Surface Studios that they won't even mention how many units they sold. Surface Studio is a niche product or a niche product. 


    My reply was to your post,

    "The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) "

    Windows / Office aren't niche products.  The Surface Studio is a niche device, focused in designers and artists. But it's interesting how the "niche" device showed how slow Apple have become in innovation.  They proved that desktop touchscreen are usable, while Apple went with the toaster / fridge "logic".   
    i don't think the touch screen desktop has been proven useful yet. my in laws had one and it was useless. just showing a big surface for illustrators doesn't make it useful to normal people. thus the low sales. 
    So now the criteria of being usable is if it works for "normal people".  That means that if the device can enhance the experience of designers and/or illustrators, is useless, because they aren't normal people.  Is suppose applications like Photoshop, Illustrator and FCX are useless too, since they aren't for normal people, right?
  • Reply 54 of 59
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member

    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 


    Innovation isn't the problem. Selling them in quantities to make them worthwhile is the problem. Microsoft hasn't done that yet.

    Agree, MS has no problem with innovation, Apple does.  And if you think quantities is the issue, then Apple has that too, when you consider how far ahead are HP, Dell and Lenovo in "quantities".
    Is this bizzaro day? Apple releases far more innovative products than MS. macbook air, superior notebook touch pads, the iphone, ipad, retina screens, siri, touch ID, the watch, 3D touch, wide color gamut screens, true tone screens, touch bar, the new screens in the MBP, AirPods, etc etc... their hardware innovation is much richer than you may think and marches on steadily. 
    My point is Apple innovation are not the best anymore.  Macbook Air is a dead product.  They have the best trackpad, with one of the worst keyboards in the market.  iPhone maybe is one of the best phones, but have the same iOS in a large screen don't help the iPad.  Retina Screen is very good, but Samsung and many other vendors are ahead of it.  TouchID maybe was an innovation in the iPhone, but not in laptops and still not available in desktops.  Plus Windows Hello with facial recognition is more innovative than TouchID.  I don't see how the Watch is an innovation, and 3D Touch is useless with so few apps supporting it.  Wide Gamut screen aren't new, HP had them many years ago in desktop and mobile workstations, same as the Touch Bar which Lenovo had in the X1 Carbon a few years ago.  And there were many wireless earbuds before the AirPods, unless you think the style is innovative. 

    Is Apple innovative?  Yes   But looks like the competition have offerings as good or better than Apple .  MS Surface line is getting a lot of attention, over Apple desktops and notebooks.  Amazon / Alexa and Google Now easily are ahead of Siri.  Tim Cook mentioned how AR have a future, but there is nothing from Apple like Hololens.  Samsung had a phone many consider better than the iPhone, with the Galaxy Note 7, until everything exploded.  And how Apple "latest Apple TV"  shipped without 4K / HDR, whlie Google ChromeCast, Roku, XBox One S and PS4 are ready for it.  There are more examples, but I think you got my point. 
  • Reply 55 of 59
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member

    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile

    Same for Apple, that focus so much in mobile, because it feeds their cash cows (iOS devices).


    Sorry holmes. Microsoft has sold so few Surface Studios that they won't even mention how many units they sold. Surface Studio is a niche product or a niche product. 


    My reply was to your post,

    "The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) "

    Windows / Office aren't niche products.  The Surface Studio is a niche device, focused in designers and artists. But it's interesting how the "niche" device showed how slow Apple have become in innovation.  They proved that desktop touchscreen are usable, while Apple went with the toaster / fridge "logic".   
    WRONG.

    Microsoft still has not proven a touch desktop is usable. They have sold so few Surface Studio units, it has proven NOTHING. 

    When Microsoft is selling tens of millions of touch desktops then we can talk.
    If sales numbers is what define what is usable, then macOS is completely useless compared to Windows, same as Android, which is ahead of iOS.
    sales numbers isn't everything.

    But when a device only sales a couple thousand units, that is not enough proof that the device is successful.

    Over the last 5 years, Apple has sold well over 70 million Mac's. There is not question the Mac platform is here to stay. Can't say the same thing about the Surface Studio
    You say sales aren't everything, but then point to the 70M Mac's that were sold.  Lenovo, HP and Dell sold far more devices than that.  Does that mean Mac's are useless? 
    You need to reach a critical mass to establish success. Macs, despite being less than all the other PC makers put together, have quite obviously reach a critical mass threshold. The studio has not. One reaching critical mass doesn't somehow make another not. But not doing it all does. Surface hasn't sold yet, perhaps ever. 
    For some reason, @sog35 thinks that if it not sells, it's not useful.  If sales is what defines how useful is a device, then Lenovo, HP and Dell are more useful than Apple, or at least looks like he thinks that way.   

    Regarding sales numbers, Mac as a whole reach the masses.  But Apple won't reveal specifics of sales by model.  Could it be that there are many Apple models that don't reach the critical mass you mention?  The Surface line have been in the market for +4 years, and it's already at $1B per quarter.  I don't think that's too bad at all.
  • Reply 56 of 59
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile

    Same for Apple, that focus so much in mobile, because it feeds their cash cows (iOS devices).


    Sorry holmes. Microsoft has sold so few Surface Studios that they won't even mention how many units they sold. Surface Studio is a niche product or a niche product. 


    My reply was to your post,

    "The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) "

    Windows / Office aren't niche products.  The Surface Studio is a niche device, focused in designers and artists. But it's interesting how the "niche" device showed how slow Apple have become in innovation.  They proved that desktop touchscreen are usable, while Apple went with the toaster / fridge "logic".   
    WRONG.

    Microsoft still has not proven a touch desktop is usable. They have sold so few Surface Studio units, it has proven NOTHING. 

    When Microsoft is selling tens of millions of touch desktops then we can talk.
    If sales numbers is what define what is usable, then macOS is completely useless compared to Windows, same as Android, which is ahead of iOS.
    sales numbers isn't everything.

    But when a device only sales a couple thousand units, that is not enough proof that the device is successful.

    Over the last 5 years, Apple has sold well over 70 million Mac's. There is not question the Mac platform is here to stay. Can't say the same thing about the Surface Studio
    You say sales aren't everything, but then point to the 70M Mac's that were sold.  Lenovo, HP and Dell sold far more devices than that.  Does that mean Mac's are useless? 

    I remember a lot of people here saying that the Surface line will be dead by now, because touch screen in a notebook was useless, and they were wrong.  It is very expensive, and may never sell to the iMac levels (which isn't that big either, compared to sales of HP, Dell and Lenovo).  What it's clear is that MS made a big impact with the Surface Studio.

    Google for Surface Studio reviews, and you'll see that most of them are very positive.  So it looks like based in the experience of those users, it has been a success.  And that's the V1 of the product. 




    Surface Studio has made ZERO impact with the public. 
    It only impacted desperate tech writers who need to write something.

    Just stop. Surface Studio is not selling at all. That's why we don't get ANY unit sales.  Same with the entire Surface line. We get ZERO unit numbers.
    Why bring again that the Surface Studio is not selling?  Do you remember your line "sales numbers isn't everything"?  Read the reviews, go to a MS Store o purchase one, try it and then you'll have an idea of the experience.  But don't make assumptions based in sales numbers. 
    One needn't buy every new product personally to observe whether it's successful or not. People vote with their wallets -- they aren't gonna buy a premium computer if it's not adding value. If Studio doesn't sell in big numbers of any sort we can safely conclude it's a lame product. 
    If you read the whole conversation, you'll notice that the point is how unusable or usable is the Surface Studio based in sales numbers.  That's the reason I mention that he should read the reviews, go to a MS or purchase one to see how it works.  Isn't that reasonable? 
  • Reply 57 of 59
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,400member

    danvm said:
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 


    Innovation isn't the problem. Selling them in quantities to make them worthwhile is the problem. Microsoft hasn't done that yet.

    Agree, MS has no problem with innovation, Apple does.  And if you think quantities is the issue, then Apple has that too, when you consider how far ahead are HP, Dell and Lenovo in "quantities".


    Nothing you said refutes anything Rayz2016 just said. He asks if it they are selling enough to justify making the Surface Studios. You are just saying "Apple doesn't sell much either! nyah! nyah!".

    Could it be that Apple hasn't updated the Mac Pro because it isn't selling much? It probably isn't worth the effort? If that is the case, then it fits with Rayz2016's statement - make items that sell.

    Maybe you didn't noticed that I didn't meant to reply to @Rayz2016.  My opinion is that the Surface Studio was never meant to be a big seller, considering it starts at USD$3000.00.  But still a great move from MS, that showed that innovation in the desktop market is possible. 
    Yeah, I can see that product pitch meeting now -- "It'll be great! But it won't be a big seller, is that cool?" blank stares. 
    Was this meeting at Apple, and related to the MacPro?  The only thing is that it wasn't that great, since it have the same internals as the release date, while keeping the same USD$3000.00 price today, three years later.  I don't see MS doing the same with the Surface Studio, or any other vendor with their devices, specially since it was designed for high end customers. 
  • Reply 58 of 59
    sog35 said:
    While I understand that the desktop computer isn't as profitable as it once was and that iOS is the way of the future, the fact remains that those great iOS apps need to be developed somewhere. And what better place than on a Mac with Xcode. They'll always be required, until there's a better way to do it I guess. 
    xcode is coming to iOS in a few years

    While Xcode on iOS would be great for occasional use, pro developers need desktop machines with multiple large displays.
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