Apple manufacturer Foxconn aiming to fully automate factories in three phases

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 84
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    Robots aren't consumers or taxpayers, so there's a point where automated work becomes self-defeating economically: the increased efficiency and savings have no purpose if there aren't enough consumers or a stable society.
     A lot of the econ 101 guys don't get this. Or that mass capitalism needs highly paid workers. 

    Foxconn may find the Chinese government may intervene - it is still a communist state. 
  • Reply 22 of 84
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    macxpress said:

    This is exactly why Trump's promises of bringing manufacturing back to America are more likely to have a negative effect on jobs.  Not that it's Trump's fault, but promising factory workers that there is some great future for them is irresponsible at best, and dangerous on some level.
    Someday all of these Trump supporters will see his campaign was completely full of BS. All of these promises he cannot and will not keep. 
    I'm not a trump supporter, nor even an American but if he is just seen to try he will still be credited by the working classes as better than nothing. 
    gatorguy
  • Reply 23 of 84
    This is why I think people need to create value in whatever job they perform. The $15/hr minimum wage for fast food workers for instance.....many franchises are saying our labor is not worth $15/hr and I'll replace it them with kiosks. Some Wendy's are already doing this. 

    Eventually the people that are unemployable or will be underemployed in the future will need to get a $20-25K supplement from the govt. to supplement whatever they make.
  • Reply 24 of 84
    Might be a good time to start the conversation on Universal Basic Income.
    It was on Switzerland's ballot as I recall this past summer, it failed. I think eventually this may become a reality in the U.S.
  • Reply 25 of 84
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    hmlongco said:
    This has been happening since humans existed. So to say all of the sudden this is going to be a major issue is absurd. It changes the landscape so people have to adapt as well. It still doesn't make it any less important to retain jobs in the US. It also is a good idea to keep illegals out and require them to play by the same rules if they want into this country. Then the biggest piece of this is those that are jobless need to WANT to work. Good luck with that.
    This has NOT been happening since humans existed, since the scale of the disruption is massive and since the timeline for change is exceedingly short.

    If you took a list of jobs, ranked by the number of people who do each one, you'll have to go all of the way down to number 33 on the list to find a new job that didn't exist 100 years ago: computer programmer.

    Sure, there have been technological advancements and "new" jobs, but most "new" jobs aren't new at all, because by and large the general categories have remained the same: driver, delivery man, manager, secretary, assembly line worker. It's just today that the assembly line worker snaps together circuit boards and screens as opposed to stamping car parts or sewing together buggy whips.

    The cabby of today was the carriage driver of yesterday, and, if Uber has it's way, replaced by the self-driving car of tomorrow. In fact, Uber has publicly stated that it's looking to replace all of the cab drivers in NY (51,000) with autonomous vehicles in the next decade.

    Major trucking companies are looking to replace their biggest expense (drivers) with autonomous trucks (trials are running... today). There go 3.5 million truck drivers.

    And if all of those autonomous vehicles hit their safety numbers, then accidents decline dramatically. That's fewer mechanics and body shop workers, fewer insurance claims adjusters, fewer ambulance and emergency room workers and staff, fewer police needed for speed traps, fewer cooks and truck stop workers, and so on, in every town and city across the US.

    Pretty soon you have massive dislocations as entire local industries collapse and -- even worse -- as the industries that depended upon the incomes of those workers collapse, which widens the circle even further. (Can't run a restaurant serving food to people who can't pay for it.)

    All told, here in the US we're looking at employment disruptions measured in the tens of millions, and all of them occurring within the next decade.

    The Great Depression had an unemployment rate of 25%. What happens when that number hits 45%?

    I'm not a Luddite, but I am worried that our civilization is going to go through a few major teutonic upheavals in a relatively short period of time.
    Nice post. Best undo the autocorrect in the last sentence to "tectonic." 

    Anyway, we can't predict the future of the "Second Machine Age." There will be millions of low-skilled jobs available, for example, in clearing, resurfacing, marking and manicuring the streets and roadways for autonomous vehicles. At present, the state of the roads are way too messy and vague because humans are programmed to overlook clutter when they need to.

    Karl Polyanyi in 1956, writing about the first machine age: 

    "On the eve of the greatest industrial revolution in history, no signs and portents were forthcoming. Capitalism arrived unannounced. No one had forcast the development of a machine industry; it came as a complete surprise. For some time England had been actually expecting a permanent recession of foreigh trade when the damn burst, and the old world was swept away in one indomitable surge toward a planatary economy." 

    This time we know there's a revolution coming, but the outline of the new world is cloudy. Based on the last one, there is something better than capitalism ahead, and new forms of human work. If I had to guess, I'd say we will consciously and conscientiously merge our two present economic systems into some kind of creative, evolutionary benevolence based on Nature, and begin turning Earth into a garden. Ya'll are going to laugh at this, but I think Jobs's vision of Apple was uniquely directed this way, and Cook is quietly (more or less) following that vision.

    Edit: that garden would have to incorporate wildness and wilderness on principle, following how nature works. 
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 26 of 84
    Robots aren't consumers or taxpayers, so there's a point where automated work becomes self-defeating economically: the increased efficiency and savings have no purpose if there aren't enough consumers or a stable society.
    Might be a good time to start the conversation on Universal Basic Income.
    "I was born, so I must be paid."
  • Reply 27 of 84
    flaneur said:

    If I had to guess, I'd say we will consciously and conscientiously merge our two present economic systems into some kind of creative, evolutionary benevolence based on Nature, and begin turning Earth into a garden. Ya'll are going to laugh at this, but I think Jobs's vision of Apple was uniquely directed this way, and Cook is quietly (more or less) following that vision.
    I'd love to see this, but I'm half afraid that, based on current trends, that more and more wealth is going to be locked up by the top 1% and the rest of us are going to be living in a Matt Damon/Elysium-style world, begging for scraps and choking on our own pollution.

    Not to launch this thread in a political direction, but Trump and the GOP seem poised to accelerate that trend, cutting taxes on the rich and corporations while in turn cutting funding and access to social services and medical care.

    The benefits of automation and productivity and renewable energy can be used to benefit us all... or a very, very, very few.

    Hence my comment regarding tectonic (grin) upheavals. Without good planning, things in our country could get very dramatic... and extremely messy, with no guarantees that the future we get is the one best for us all.
  • Reply 28 of 84
    hmlongco said:
    flaneur said:

    If I had to guess, I'd say we will consciously and conscientiously merge our two present economic systems into some kind of creative, evolutionary benevolence based on Nature, and begin turning Earth into a garden. Ya'll are going to laugh at this, but I think Jobs's vision of Apple was uniquely directed this way, and Cook is quietly (more or less) following that vision.
    I'd love to see this, but I'm half afraid that, based on current trends, that more and more wealth is going to be locked up by the top 1% and the rest of us are going to be living in a Matt Damon/Elysium-style world, begging for scraps and choking on our own pollution.

    Not to launch this thread in a political direction, but Trump and the GOP seem poised to accelerate that trend, cutting taxes on the rich and corporations while in turn cutting funding and access to social services and medical care.

    The benefits of automation and productivity and renewable energy can be used to benefit us all... or a very, very, very few.

    Hence my comment regarding tectonic (grin) upheavals. Without good planning, things in our country could get very dramatic... and extremely messy, with no guarantees that the future we get is the one best for us all.
    Not to sound harsh or anything, but consider getting re-trained, developing a new skill, and re-inventing yourself. The possibilities are endless. Whether you want to "choke on your own pollution" or take advantage of the "benefits of automation and productivity" is pretty much up to you in a country like the US. 
    designrdewme
  • Reply 29 of 84
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,686member
    hmlongco said:
    flaneur said:

    If I had to guess, I'd say we will consciously and conscientiously merge our two present economic systems into some kind of creative, evolutionary benevolence based on Nature, and begin turning Earth into a garden. Ya'll are going to laugh at this, but I think Jobs's vision of Apple was uniquely directed this way, and Cook is quietly (more or less) following that vision.
    I'd love to see this, but I'm half afraid that, based on current trends, that more and more wealth is going to be locked up by the top 1% and the rest of us are going to be living in a Matt Damon/Elysium-style world, begging for scraps and choking on our own pollution.

    Not to launch this thread in a political direction, but Trump and the GOP seem poised to accelerate that trend, cutting taxes on the rich and corporations while in turn cutting funding and access to social services and medical care.

    The benefits of automation and productivity and renewable energy can be used to benefit us all... or a very, very, very few.

    Hence my comment regarding tectonic (grin) upheavals. Without good planning, things in our country could get very dramatic... and extremely messy, with no guarantees that the future we get is the one best for us all.
    Not to sound harsh or anything, but consider getting re-trained, developing a new skill, and re-inventing yourself. The possibilities are endless. Whether you want to "choke on your own pollution" or take advantage of the "benefits of automation and productivity" is pretty much up to you in a country like the US. 
    Why personalise a generalised argument. 
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 30 of 84
    asdasd said:
    hmlongco said:
    flaneur said:

    If I had to guess, I'd say we will consciously and conscientiously merge our two present economic systems into some kind of creative, evolutionary benevolence based on Nature, and begin turning Earth into a garden. Ya'll are going to laugh at this, but I think Jobs's vision of Apple was uniquely directed this way, and Cook is quietly (more or less) following that vision.
    I'd love to see this, but I'm half afraid that, based on current trends, that more and more wealth is going to be locked up by the top 1% and the rest of us are going to be living in a Matt Damon/Elysium-style world, begging for scraps and choking on our own pollution.

    Not to launch this thread in a political direction, but Trump and the GOP seem poised to accelerate that trend, cutting taxes on the rich and corporations while in turn cutting funding and access to social services and medical care.

    The benefits of automation and productivity and renewable energy can be used to benefit us all... or a very, very, very few.

    Hence my comment regarding tectonic (grin) upheavals. Without good planning, things in our country could get very dramatic... and extremely messy, with no guarantees that the future we get is the one best for us all.
    Not to sound harsh or anything, but consider getting re-trained, developing a new skill, and re-inventing yourself. The possibilities are endless. Whether you want to "choke on your own pollution" or take advantage of the "benefits of automation and productivity" is pretty much up to you in a country like the US. 
    Why personalise a generalised argument. 
    Who personalized it? It was meant as a perfectly general comment, applicable to anyone (including me). My response, and the use of "you" was playing off of his reference to "..rest of us..." and "...our own pollution..." and "...us all..." and "...our country...".

    Please read it again. In context.
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 31 of 84
    designr said:
    Everyone needs to learn that if your job, or some part of it, can be automated...eventually it probably will be. So then, what will you do to keep increasing your value in less automate-able activities? What will you do to become skilled in things that are much harder to automate well or possibly at all?

    There are three basic options here:

    1. Try to prevent the automation in some way (unlikely and a bad idea anyway)
    2. Stare, light the proverbial "deer in the headlights" at the automation that's happening and then ask for handouts from the government.
    3. Keep growing, learning, preparing, saving, etc. in new or better skills that are still a few steps ahead of the robots.

    The third is the hardest but also the best option.

    Love the textbook libertarian talking points, but... what automation-relation government handouts are you referring to? Also, in your suggested vision of the future, is every single human on earth going to become a highly educated, highly trained...something? Is that really sustainable?
    waverboy
  • Reply 32 of 84

    jkichline said:
    daven said:
    And so,lies the next big world economic challenge - how will the typical current factory and service industry workers earn a living when manufacturing and support services are automated? The factories may return but with very few jobs.
    Yep. That's what I've been saying to the "Fight for 15" crew... you may get $15/hour... but not for long. Corporations will simply replace you with robots and computers.  That's the way things are heading. Anyone who doesn't see that has their head firmly jammed up their past.

    We are in the midst of the beginning of a new industrial revolution. The trouble is that our government is so far not wanting to admit it.  Instead, they want to return to "the good 'ol days" with "the good 'ol boys".  The people who will suffer are the average, everyday citizen that is trying to make ends meet.

    What we need is a more progressive governance that understand that automation is the future we had always hoped for and that finally mankind can work less and enjoy life instead of slaving away for peanuts.  What you are seeing now are oligarchies struggling with this new reality and trying to use it to further line their pockets. But there will be a social revolution.  It's an inevitability. 
    So you're suggesting that there will be a sort of global trickle-down-economics as a result of automation? That the kind-hearted executive class is going to cut everybody a break and let everybody enjoy the good life while the machines do their jobs for them? Not sure I follow. Seems to be all trends show that the savings will be collected at the top and stay there. When machines and technology save us time in the workforce we are expected to fill that saved time with more work.
    edited December 2016 patchythepirate
  • Reply 33 of 84
    anantksundaram said:
    Not to sound harsh or anything, but consider getting re-trained, developing a new skill, and re-inventing yourself. The possibilities are endless. Whether you want to "choke on your own pollution" or take advantage of the "benefits of automation and productivity" is pretty much up to you in a country like the US. 
    Ah, yes, the nebulous "retraining" argument.

    Many, many, many people simply do not have that ability, nor that luxury. If you're a mid-western truck driver displaced by automation, what "retraining" do you suggest? How about a former Detroit autoworker? Even if you can sell everything you own and pack up and move yourself and your family elsewhere.... where would you go? What new industry hiring people by the millions would you suggest retraining for, even if one could afford the time and expense?

    Robotics has improved to the point where a modern car plant which once employed 6,000 people now only employs 300. Where do the other 5,700 go? Another car plant? Sorry, it's automating too. Robotics plant? Nope, sorry, the robots are building the robots.

    Robot repair, maintenance? What do you think half the 300 remaining employees are doing?

    Robot programming? Yep. Hundred or so people at the robot plant. Robot parts? Yep, definitely need more chips and circuits… from the fabs in China. (Which in itself is replacing workers with robots.)

    Further, the one single robot plant is churning out the robots that replaced the 5,700 people at plant A, and 5,700 people at plant B, and 5,700 people at plant C. A couple of software companies employing a thousand or so people are developing the AI systems poised to displace 3.5 million truck drivers. A company with a mere hundred or so employees is busy creating automated chefs capable of flipping burgers and adding pepperonis to pizzas, thereby putting 10 million more fast food workers on the street.

    And all of them are doing this, all at the same time.

    We. Are. Running. Out. Of. Jobs.

    StrangeDaysgatorguypatchythepiratewaverboyroundaboutnow
  • Reply 34 of 84
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,385member
    I guess now the people that have been giddily attacking Apple over their Foxconn "slave factories" will now be happy because many of these workers will probably starve to death. Because that is a fantastic alternative, instead of working one of the most lucrative manufacturing jobs in the country. 
    edited December 2016 patchythepirate
  • Reply 35 of 84

    designr said:
    This is exactly why Trump's promises of bringing manufacturing back to America are more likely to have a negative effect on jobs.  Not that it's Trump's fault, but promising factory workers that there is some great future for them is irresponsible at best, and dangerous on some level.
    There are always related ancillary jobs created and needed, ever been to an automotive production plant?  I was just at the Camaro/CTS plant in Grand River, MI, and there are plenty of people also required for much work...  
    Yeah. The job counts might decrease in some way in some areas and in the short term. But really what happens is the jobs themselves change and are redefined in some ways. And then there is demand (and supply of of labor) for other things.
    Exactly, there are always changes and retraining required, anyone who thinks they found a life-long job is fooling themselves these days.  Everything is evolving and job skills and training must also continually evolve, that is the only way to thrive in these times of change.  

    We as a species are planning to goto Mars, now THAT is an area for jobs!  ;)  
    Neither of your points is sustainable.

    - The entire working class cannot *all* become robot repair men. 

    - The entire working class cannot *all* become hard scientists because of the overheard of higher education. There are millions/billions of poor, uneducated rural Chinese farmers, and it's unrealistic to expect all of them to become scientists.
    waverboyasdasd
  • Reply 36 of 84
    hmlongco said:
    anantksundaram said:
    Not to sound harsh or anything, but consider getting re-trained, developing a new skill, and re-inventing yourself. The possibilities are endless. Whether you want to "choke on your own pollution" or take advantage of the "benefits of automation and productivity" is pretty much up to you in a country like the US. 
    Ah, yes, the nebulous "retraining" argument.

    Many, many, many people simply do not have that ability, nor that luxury. If you're a mid-western truck driver displaced by automation, what "retraining" do you suggest? How about a former Detroit autoworker? Even if you can sell everything you own and pack up and move yourself and your family elsewhere.... where would you go? What new industry hiring people by the millions would you suggest retraining for, even if one could afford the time and expense?

    Robotics has improved to the point where a modern car plant which once employed 6,000 people now only employs 300. Where do the other 5,700 go? Another car plant? Sorry, it's automating too. Robotics plant? Nope, sorry, the robots are building the robots.

    Robot repair, maintenance? What do you think half the 300 remaining employees are doing?

    Robot programming? Yep. Hundred or so people at the robot plant. Robot parts? Yep, definitely need more chips and circuits… from the fabs in China. (Which in itself is replacing workers with robots.)

    Further, the one single robot plant is churning out the robots that replaced the 5,700 people at plant A, and 5,700 people at plant B, and 5,700 people at plant C. A couple of software companies employing a thousand or so people are developing the AI systems poised to displace 3.5 million truck drivers. A company with a mere hundred or so employees is busy creating automated chefs capable of flipping burgers and adding pepperonis to pizzas, thereby putting 10 million more fast food workers on the street.

    And all of them are doing this, all at the same time.

    We. Are. Running. Out. Of. Jobs.

    Oh, I don't know. Building homes? Starting a small business? Learning a high-paying trade craft (e.g., carpentry, plumbing, roofing, painting, welding.... many many more come to mind)? Farming? Computer/electronics repair? Auto repair? Truck repair? Nursing? Elevator repair? Joining the police force? Paralegal? Here's 25 more: http://career-profiles.careertrends.com/stories/9699/highest-paying-blue-collar-jobs#1-Biofuels-Processing-Technicians

    Want me to go on?
    designr
  • Reply 37 of 84
    hmlongco said:
    flaneur said:

    If I had to guess, I'd say we will consciously and conscientiously merge our two present economic systems into some kind of creative, evolutionary benevolence based on Nature, and begin turning Earth into a garden. Ya'll are going to laugh at this, but I think Jobs's vision of Apple was uniquely directed this way, and Cook is quietly (more or less) following that vision.
    I'd love to see this, but I'm half afraid that, based on current trends, that more and more wealth is going to be locked up by the top 1% and the rest of us are going to be living in a Matt Damon/Elysium-style world, begging for scraps and choking on our own pollution.

    Not to launch this thread in a political direction, but Trump and the GOP seem poised to accelerate that trend, cutting taxes on the rich and corporations while in turn cutting funding and access to social services and medical care.

    The benefits of automation and productivity and renewable energy can be used to benefit us all... or a very, very, very few.

    Hence my comment regarding tectonic (grin) upheavals. Without good planning, things in our country could get very dramatic... and extremely messy, with no guarantees that the future we get is the one best for us all.
    Not to sound harsh or anything, but consider getting re-trained, developing a new skill, and re-inventing yourself. The possibilities are endless. Whether you want to "choke on your own pollution" or take advantage of the "benefits of automation and productivity" is pretty much up to you in a country like the US. 
    But are we talking about the US? I thought this was a Chinese thread and global topic -- at what point is automation of the workforce unsustainable to an economy? I'm fairly certain those in impoverished areas will not have much financial ability to "re-invent" themselves (or to use the GOP lingo, "pull themselves up by the bootstraps") as you've suggested is the answer.
  • Reply 38 of 84
    hmlongco said:
    anantksundaram said:
    Not to sound harsh or anything, but consider getting re-trained, developing a new skill, and re-inventing yourself. The possibilities are endless. Whether you want to "choke on your own pollution" or take advantage of the "benefits of automation and productivity" is pretty much up to you in a country like the US. 
    Ah, yes, the nebulous "retraining" argument.

    Many, many, many people simply do not have that ability, nor that luxury. If you're a mid-western truck driver displaced by automation, what "retraining" do you suggest? How about a former Detroit autoworker? Even if you can sell everything you own and pack up and move yourself and your family elsewhere.... where would you go? What new industry hiring people by the millions would you suggest retraining for, even if one could afford the time and expense?

    Robotics has improved to the point where a modern car plant which once employed 6,000 people now only employs 300. Where do the other 5,700 go? Another car plant? Sorry, it's automating too. Robotics plant? Nope, sorry, the robots are building the robots.

    Robot repair, maintenance? What do you think half the 300 remaining employees are doing?

    Robot programming? Yep. Hundred or so people at the robot plant. Robot parts? Yep, definitely need more chips and circuits… from the fabs in China. (Which in itself is replacing workers with robots.)

    Further, the one single robot plant is churning out the robots that replaced the 5,700 people at plant A, and 5,700 people at plant B, and 5,700 people at plant C. A couple of software companies employing a thousand or so people are developing the AI systems poised to displace 3.5 million truck drivers. A company with a mere hundred or so employees is busy creating automated chefs capable of flipping burgers and adding pepperonis to pizzas, thereby putting 10 million more fast food workers on the street.

    And all of them are doing this, all at the same time.

    We. Are. Running. Out. Of. Jobs.

    Oh, I don't know. Building homes? Starting a small business? Learning a high-paying trade craft (e.g., carpentry, plumbing, roofing, painting, welding.... many many more come to mind)? Farming? Computer/electronics repair? Auto repair? Truck repair? Nursing? Elevator repair? Joining the police force? Paralegal? Here's 25 more: http://career-profiles.careertrends.com/stories/9699/highest-paying-blue-collar-jobs#1-Biofuels-Processing-Technicians

    Want me to go on?
    Sure, go on, because all you've done is listed jobs. That doesn't explain how unemployed families are actually supposed to get educated and trained in new fields possibly in other parts of the country or world, all without collecting government dole. You didn't address Hmlongco's point that the workforce for uneducated workers will continue to get dramatically smaller. I'm all for considering free university education, but you surely can't expect the masses of displaced workers to somehow put themselves through university or trade school unassisted.
    singularity
  • Reply 39 of 84
    anantksundaram said:

    Oh, I don't know. Building homes? Starting a small business? Learning a high-paying trade craft (e.g., carpentry, plumbing, roofing, painting, welding.... many many more come to mind)? Farming? Computer/electronics repair? Auto repair? Truck repair? Nursing? Elevator repair? Joining the police force? Paralegal? Here's 25 more: http://career-profiles.careertrends.com/stories/9699/highest-paying-blue-collar-jobs#1-Biofuels-Processing-Technicians

    Want me to go on?
    No, I don't want you to go on, because you're not getting it. People without work don't have incomes. People without incomes don't buy homes, nor do they have them painted. Auto and truck repair? Just how many millions of new people can move into that field? (Especially if the economy tightens when people stop buying and companies need to ship less?)

    Farming is already on the verge of becoming fully automated. Police???? Don't make me laugh. The GOP is cutting taxes left and right, which (as we've seen in Kansas and Texas and Wisconsin) means that police and fire departments and schools are CUTTING employees, not hiring new ones.

    Henry Ford figured out a long time ago that if he wanted to sell more cars, he needed to pay his employees enough money so they could buy them. We're now on the flip side of that trend, with companies bend on paying as few people as little as possible, and hoping someone else will pick up the slack. 

    Now loss of industrialization, shipping jobs overseas, and the trend towards ever-increasing automation are going to be the 1-2-3 punch that KO's us all.

    Unless we recognize that it's coming and do something about it.
    gatorguywaverboy
  • Reply 40 of 84
    Most people posting here aren't fellow Engineers and Computer Science recipients, but I will tell you no amount of effort will make that wish come true. You either have the aptitude or you do not. Learning to assemble large scale Solar Arrays, Redundant Distributed SMART Power Grid that needs hundreds of thousands of trained Power Technicians will need to be created as the current GRID can't manage present potentials.

    Large scale mass transit systems requiring both Engineering, Techs and Grunts [Manufacturing Assembly Workers] will cover all walks of life.

    There is literally Trillions in rotting Infrastructure that needs addressing, but you dip shits who think Dump is the answer don't understand the problems. 

    64% of the GDP in this country overwhelmingly voted Clinton:
    36% of the GDP in this country overwhelmingly voted Trump:

    https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-avenue/2016/11/29/another-clinton-trump-divide-high-output-america-vs-low-output-america/

    It'll soon be 75 vs. 25 and in the next 15 years after that 85:15.

    Rural America is DOA. It'll best serve as tourism and that is all.

    You want your future offspring to have a bright future, stop being so stupid in your choices of votes and invest in their education because you don't want to be old and decrepit with your offspring hating your guts for screwing them over early in life.

     The Big 6 Banks are ready to invest $90 Trillion in Climate Change, but you voted for a moron who denies its very existence.

    Keep ranting on a forum that is Conservative Friendly. You idiots bitch about Apple yet wouldn't know how to work there outside of the janitorial services.
    anantksundaramsingularitydewmemacplusplus
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