Apple and Foxconn weighing $7 billion display plant in U.S., report says

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  • Reply 41 of 58
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,521member
    There are a frack ton of Engineers and Scientists that are American born. You aren't one or you'd goddamn well know that. Most of us have decided after being in this pissant industry that our skills transfer to other interests. There isn't a lack of engineering talent in this country. Most of us just aren't that interested in the actual areas of growth and focus.
    Yet this pissant industry is the only one in which a few US companies have been able to sell anything that the rest of the world wants to buy, except for airplanes, which has derived its leading technology from defense contracting. And it's this pissant industry that has made it possible for you to add your view to this discussion. Why so bitter?

    Taniwha raises an interesting point. When are we going to get realistic about the failure of US industry to lead in major fields like consumer electronics since the 1960s, or autos since the 1970s?
    edited January 2017
  • Reply 42 of 58
    Will Foxconn be running the plant and controlling the workers?
    Americans have unions and can't be controlled or might not want to work the hours Foxconn's overseas plants do.
    Will uneducated Americans have the manufacturing skill set required and will they have greater pride of workmanship in manufacturing Apple products then they do a Ford or Chrysler car?
    I hope Apple can partner with Foxconn to make this a viable opportunity.
  • Reply 43 of 58
    safi said:
    Unfortunately the US has screwed itself because of it's education system. You go to a Ph.D program and pretty much 80-90% of the PhD candidates are foreign born. Americans are getting degrees in psychology and sociology instead of STEM creating a huge opportunity for foreign workers especially foreign Software Engineers. 
    No sh_t. It's "its education system"! No apostrophe.
    afrodri
  • Reply 44 of 58

    If they're going to depend on robots, I guess they'll locate it in a red state.
    Yeah, where there'd be a better employee pool of people trained to design, engineer, install, operate, and maintain the robots.
  • Reply 45 of 58

    bobroo said:
    $7B in Robots.

    Nothing to get excited over.

    You must have missed the "30,000 - 50,000" jobs thing.


    I'm not able to reconcile the 2 bits of information. Automated manufacturing means less human intervention. How exactly are the 30-50k jobs being created? You don't need that many people to manage the automation plant. Are these permanent jobs or temporary work contracts for installing and setting up the automation plant?

    I can't imagine a scale of manufacturing that uses automation and needs 50k jobs. I'm definitely missing something here.

    You have a lack of imagination.
  • Reply 46 of 58

    Engineering is a HARD subject. Kids today mostly want instant gratification. Even my grandkids are really not interested in STEM despite my attempts to get them interested. They were far more interested in playing computer games. Asking them where the tech they are using came from and who designed it just seemed to go over their heads. They know it all comes from China and Japan.

    Then I got them a visit to a high tech race car builder. They have a different opinion now. There is hope yet.

    But this is not a new thing. As a now retired Engineer I know that I had to work a lot harder than my roommates who were doing SOFT subjects (Business Studies, English History) and this was in the mid 1970's.

    I'm still tinkering with machines. The new Full size Steam Loco that I'm helping to build should steam for the first time this year.

    It's not nearly as hard if you know how to study. You can't get by in technical training if you expect to party all semester and then cram for finals. You have to be able to demonstrate competence in the subject. You have to be able to get actual results in the subject or area of study. With an actual job market, and people wanting to learn technical jobs, there'll be schools started which teach actual skills.
  • Reply 47 of 58
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  • Reply 48 of 58
    k2kw said:
    There are a frack ton of Engineers and Scientists that are American born. You aren't one or you'd goddamn well know that. Most of us have decided after being in this pissant industry that our skills transfer to other interests. There isn't a lack of engineering talent in this country. Most of us just aren't that interested in the actual areas of growth and focus.
    And American corporations probably laid off a ton of engineers in 2008-2010.    Its how they get rid of people in the 50s and 60s.   Go back and watch "Falling Down" 
    with Michael Douglas back in 1993.    
    I live in a suburb north of Dallas near an area that used to be known as the "telecom corridor" because of all the telecom engineering companies that had been located there including Nortel. Many of my neighbors were engineers, some native born and others who immigrated. Nearly all had lost their jobs starting in 2003 through 2010. Most have moved off now. I only know one who was able to get a new permanent job at Frontier. The rest never did as far as I know. Meanwhile I make a very good living doing graphic design and Photoshop and have done so for 25 years now. I don't mind schools teaching STEM but to do so at the expense of the arts is foolhardy.
  • Reply 49 of 58
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,521member
    safi said:
    safi said:
    Unfortunately the US has screwed itself because of it's education system. You go to a Ph.D program and pretty much 80-90% of the PhD candidates are foreign born. Americans are getting degrees in psychology and sociology instead of STEM creating a huge opportunity for foreign workers especially foreign Software Engineers. 
    No sh_t. It's "its education system"! No apostrophe.
    My apologies. English is far from my first language. :smile: 

    A lot of native English speakers get that one wrong. I wouldn't have known that you were not a native speaker by your first post, even without the "its."
  • Reply 50 of 58
    safi said:
    safi said:
    Unfortunately the US has screwed itself because of it's education system. You go to a Ph.D program and pretty much 80-90% of the PhD candidates are foreign born. Americans are getting degrees in psychology and sociology instead of STEM creating a huge opportunity for foreign workers especially foreign Software Engineers. 
    No sh_t. It's "its education system"! No apostrophe.
    My apologies. English is far from my first language. :smile: 

    Apology accepted, as long as you respect our language's rules and learn from this. But, assuming you're a software engineer, you have due respect for "languages." As precise and demanding of perfect spelling and syntax as these languages are, when English is learned and used properly, it also enables the intended good results.

    My point was that our shoddy educational system contributes to sloppy English like this. And its effects spread to ESL persons such as you, as in this case. It's unfortunate, and it needs to be handled. Ultimately, the individual is responsible, despite having received such a shoddy education.


  • Reply 51 of 58
    sandorsandor Posts: 551member
    MacPro said:
    safi said:
    Notsofast said:
    safi said:
    Unfortunately the US has screwed itself because of it's education system. You go to a Ph.D program and pretty much 80-90% of the PhD candidates are foreign born. Americans are getting degrees in psychology and sociology instead of STEM creating a huge opportunity for foreign workers especially foreign Software Engineers. 

    You hit the problem on the head Safi.  Steve Jobs made it clear, that contrary to popular understanding,  the greatest impediment to moving production to the US was the shortage of engineers (not just software BTW, there are many other engineering jobs necessary to run a heavily automated plant).  This is an opportunity with the new administration to shift back towards a training and education model focused on meeting job demand, rather than funding each persons "self-discovery."   Indeed, most of these type of engineering jobs won't require Phd, or even traditional 4 year schools.  Let the revolution begin.  

    PS,  it is wonderful to hear that there is so much discussion of creating good paying jobs in the tech and other industries.  Previous administrations of both parties had given up on this, so kudos to a fresh start and innovative thinking.
    The U.S. doesn't have a shortage of engineers. This long standing myth has been debunked various times and was even reported on to congressed by two professors last year. Importing H-1b visa immigrants or outsourcing overseas in merely a way to cut cost.

    It is very hard to hire an immigrant over an American. In order to be granted an H1B the company must prove that there was no American available that could take that job and the employee that is being hired must have a relatively higher salary compared to other starters. What you are referring to are probably low level IT workers or CISCO system operators. There is no shortage of them in America, but there is a huge need for skilled software engineers and researchers. Do you think it helps MIT cut costs when they import foreign born Ph.D candidates by the hundreds?

    In a growing economy, there is always demand and a shortage of Engineers/Doctors/STEM people. Go to the immigrations website of most major countries and they will ask you to apply if you fall in the 'short fall' category. The German economy for instance has maintained it's strength for quite a while and it is backed by one of the best education systems in the world. When someone goes for a STEM degree to Germany, they end up with a job almost every time because there is huge demand. It's the same in the US minus the educational system. The strength of the US is in it's ability to attract the best and the most hardworking people from around the world.

    If you don't support outsourcing to cheaper labor you might as well end world trade as well and ask for an ultra socialist government where economic growth isn't everything and rabid consumerism doesn't drive society. Learn to compete or become irrelevant. Petition governments to provide you free high quality education so that you can compete with the impoverished third world worker who 'took your job'.
    As an H1B visa recipient originally from England back in 1990 I can verify (at that time at least) your description of the difficulty and high standards set is very accurate.  I later obtained a green card and citizenship and hopefully have contributed to my new country.
    <sarcasm>
    nope. not going to buy it.
    </sarcasm>

    as a nation of immigrants, whose cry is ""Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp! Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore, send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
    we have always retained the right to moan and complain about the most recent waves of immigrants. how did the Irish feel? the Italians?

    Somehow i think the majority of those clamoring to close the borders are not going to be much more than the great-grand children of immigrants, and very few will be native to North America.
    afrodri
  • Reply 52 of 58
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,521member
    safi said:
    safi said:
    Unfortunately the US has screwed itself because of it's education system. You go to a Ph.D program and pretty much 80-90% of the PhD candidates are foreign born. Americans are getting degrees in psychology and sociology instead of STEM creating a huge opportunity for foreign workers especially foreign Software Engineers. 
    No sh_t. It's "its education system"! No apostrophe.
    My apologies. English is far from my first language. smile 

    Apology accepted, as long as you respect our language's rules and learn from this. But, assuming you're a software engineer, you have due respect for "languages." As precise and demanding of perfect spelling and syntax as these languages are, when English is learned and used properly, it also enables the intended good results.

    My point was that our shoddy educational system contributes to sloppy English like this. And its effects spread to ESL persons such as you, as in this case. It's unfortunate, and it needs to be handled. Ultimately, the individual is responsible, despite having received such a shoddy education.


    "Respect our language's rules"? Why the jingoist plus schoolmarmish tone?

    He's doing very well, and it's a stretch to get all possesive, patriotic and strict about the stew of diverse languages — Anglo-Saxon, French, Celtic, Danish, not to mention American dialect — that makes up English.


    edited January 2017 argonautjSnivelyafrodriroundaboutnowgatorguy
  • Reply 53 of 58

    It's not nearly as hard if you know how to study. You can't get by in technical training if you expect to party all semester and then cram for finals. You have to be able to demonstrate competence in the subject. You have to be able to get actual results in the subject or area of study. With an actual job market, and people wanting to learn technical jobs, there'll be schools started which teach actual skills.
    You might have been able to get away with cramming for finals but when and where I did my degree, finals were only 40% of your final grade.
    You had to work hard all year. This wasn't in a conventional University but one that was very practical in the way it taught things.
    This sort of education was perfect for me as I dropped out of school aged 15, got a job as an apprentice toolroom fitter and went to night school.
    I walked into a job desiging Autopilots. That would not have happend if I was incompetent.

  • Reply 54 of 58
    Thanks, new administration!
  • Reply 55 of 58
    A $7 billion infusion to this economy is not something to sneeze about. I don't care how many jobs the investment creates, $7 billion is huge and its an economic multiplier however you slice it.
  • Reply 56 of 58

    bobroo said:
    $7B in Robots.

    Nothing to get excited over.

    You must have missed the "30,000 - 50,000" jobs thing.


    I'm not able to reconcile the 2 bits of information. Automated manufacturing means less human intervention. How exactly are the 30-50k jobs being created? You don't need that many people to manage the automation plant. Are these permanent jobs or temporary work contracts for installing and setting up the automation plant?

    I can't imagine a scale of manufacturing that uses automation and needs 50k jobs. I'm definitely missing something here.

    You have a lack of imagination.
    Well, that clears it up!!
  • Reply 57 of 58
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,490member
    Engineering is a HARD subject. Kids today mostly want instant gratification. Even my grandkids are really not interested in STEM despite my attempts to get them interested. They were far more interested in playing computer games. Asking them where the tech they are using came from and who designed it just seemed to go over their heads. They know it all comes from China and Japan.

    Then I got them a visit to a high tech race car builder. They have a different opinion now. There is hope yet.

    But this is not a new thing. As a now retired Engineer I know that I had to work a lot harder than my roommates who were doing SOFT subjects (Business Studies, English History) and this was in the mid 1970's.

    I'm still tinkering with machines. The new Full size Steam Loco that I'm helping to build should steam for the first time this year.

    All true but it's nothing especially new.  I attended an engineering high school and while that high school is still great in many ways, they couldn't get enough students to apply, so they now have majors in law, medicine, graphic design, etc and have combined mechanical and electrical engineering into one major which has relatively few takers.    I was a recording engineer and I'm still a member of the Audio Engineering Society.   About 20 years ago, the AES published a special edition of its journal dedicated to the state of digital audio at the time.   I remember being shocked to see that not one paper was written by an American and it's also largely true at the AES conventions.   The tech sessions and producer sessions have many Americans.  But the hard engineering sessions (papers with Calculus) rarely do.  

    I've been teaching my 13-year-old granddaughter the basics of circuits and I got my 7-year-old grandson a robotics kit and a circuit breadboarding kit.  He's nailed it, but it remains to be seen if they'll stick with it and pursue careers in those fields or strive for an easier path.  Parents need to realize that there aren't well-paying careers for button pushers anymore because almost anyone can now do accomplish those things at home.   

    Having said that, I disagree with those who think that tech factories can't be opened in the U.S. because of a lack of skilled labor.   As I understand it, a great percentage of the employees working in Foxconn factories in China came from the farmland.   People can be trained.   Of course, if a factory is going to be largely automated, it's a moot point.  And it's probably easier to automate a panel factory than a smartphone factory, especially if the major components are still manufactured elsewhere.   People don't realize that many "factories" are not really manufacturing plants, but assembly plants.  
  • Reply 58 of 58
    eideardeideard Posts: 402member
    Take a look at actual practice. This will be latest Sharp tech.  When they built their primo state-of-the-art display plant in Japan a few years ago they ended up onstream with ~1000 employees at peak production. 
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