Apple patents screen tech capable of reading fingerprints without dedicated sensor

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 43
    irelandireland Posts: 17,669member
    sog35 said:
    ireland said:
    Something along these lines is enevitable and comprehendible. What I'm more interested in intellectually is how Apple handles the home button UI and the earpiece speaker in such a scenario. I presume the speaker just moves to the top bevel edge. I know pizio speaker or whatever they are called are possibly but am skeptical of their sound quality. But how is the home button UI handled?? If it's not an always-on portion or the display how can the user see it and press it in one go and how will they feel where it is in a dark room? Raise to wake? I like that I can feel the home button. Any alternative I can imagine is in some way a worse experience. Yes design is about trade offs, but this seems like it might be 'cool' replacing totally useable.
    You have to move on from physical home button.

    Just like we moved on from the physical click wheel on the iPod. 

    People always said we needed a physical keyboard on phones before the iPhone. Its the same deal. 

    You will get use to not having a physical home button.
    I've no problem with innovation as long as it's well considered. What's your suggestion and how does it work?
  • Reply 22 of 43
    irelandireland Posts: 17,669member
    mjtomlin said:
    ireland said:

    rob53 said:
    Real question is whether this fingerprint sensor can be spoofed. Article talks about being able to sense ridges but what about sensing a live body. We've all seen the full hand sensors in movies but do these actually work perfectly? What about wet or too dry hands? Or oily hands? As for a home button I agree with other commenters, it has to be something you can actually feel.
    It doesn't necessarily need to be something you can feel if it works for the entire display, re unlocking. My issue is, for example, when you are in an app how do you get Home? Where do you press? Is it intuitive? Does it work every time? Is it only one interaction/press? The idea of 3D-touching the bottom edge to get to Home makes my skin crawl. As a power-user feature, sure, but as the standard way to go Home—yuck! Terrible idea. Leave those kinds of ideas to Microsoft.

    The brilliance of TouchID is that there is very little friction between it and the home button. They are used in conjunction with each other, but it is not completely necessary. A physical home button can be placed on the side of the device.
    Please, no. I'd hate a side home button.
    repressthis
  • Reply 23 of 43
    irelandireland Posts: 17,669member

    jbdragon said:
    Am I the only one who likes the home button and what rather keep it?
    I love it. If there is a better alternative that's as intuitive I'd switch. No one has suggested one yet.
    edited February 2017 repressthis
  • Reply 24 of 43
    irelandireland Posts: 17,669member
    ireland said:
    Something along these lines is enevitable and comprehendible. What I'm more interested in intellectually is how Apple handles the home button UI and the earpiece speaker in such a scenario. I presume the speaker just moves to the top bevel edge. I know pizio speaker or whatever they are called are possibly but am skeptical of their sound quality. But how is the home button UI handled?? If it's not an always-on portion or the display how can the user see it and press it in one go and how will they feel where it is in a dark room? Raise to wake? I like that I can feel the home button. Any alternative I can imagine is in some way a worse experience. Yes design is about trade offs, but this seems like it might be 'cool' replacing totally useable.
    Sure, it is. But in the same way that going from a clickable home button to the current capacitive button. Or going from a physical keyboard to a touchscreen keyboard -- technically less good in that measure, but overall worth it. This could be no different.
    I disagree. A non moving home button is better because its failure rate is likely much less and you can programmatically give the user the feel they like. And the user can still 'feel' the ring and feel the press-click. If someone can describe a better method I'd switch over. Describe it to me—how do I exit an app?
    repressthis
  • Reply 25 of 43
    irelandireland Posts: 17,669member
    sog35 said:
    foggyhill said:
    mjtomlin said:
    ireland said:

    rob53 said:
    Real question is whether this fingerprint sensor can be spoofed. Article talks about being able to sense ridges but what about sensing a live body. We've all seen the full hand sensors in movies but do these actually work perfectly? What about wet or too dry hands? Or oily hands? As for a home button I agree with other commenters, it has to be something you can actually feel.
    It doesn't necessarily need to be something you can feel if it works for the entire display, re unlocking. My issue is, for example, when you are in an app how do you get Home? Where do you press? Is it intuitive? Does it work every time? Is it only one interaction/press? The idea of 3D-touching the bottom edge to get to Home makes my skin crawl. As a power-user feature, sure, but as the standard way to go Home—yuck! Terrible idea. Leave those kinds of ideas to Microsoft.

    The brilliance of TouchID is that there is very little friction between it and the home button. They are used in conjunction with each other, but it is not completely necessary. A physical home button can be placed on the side of the device. The tech described above has nothing to do with the home button, it's about the fingerprint scanner. This would enable to move the Home button to make more room for the display but still allow a convenient way to scan finger prints.
    Why on earth would someone move the home button! There is a reason it's there in the first place.
    Why would anyone get rid of the click wheel on the iPod?
    Why would anyone get rid of the physical keyboard on a phone?
    Because the new way is better. Tell us the newer way.
  • Reply 26 of 43
    irelandireland Posts: 17,669member
    jbdragon said:
    Am I the only one who likes the home button and what rather keep it? It's what makes a iPhone a iPhone!!! What, so you want it to look like many Android phones? I like the real (Well now kind of fake) button that does a number of things, then taking up screen space for a home button.
    A physical button is the only thing that can help one orient the device in the dark or without looking. If the location of the camera lens, power plug, speakers or microphone didn't matter, then the physical home button wouldn't matter.
    Interesting suggestion. A phone that is exactly the same in either orientation. But what about when orientation is locked? Would we now have to sometimes tip the phone up to orient it correctly? Those things would annoy me though. Still, how does a user exit an app? Where do the press? What's the UX?
  • Reply 27 of 43
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,860member
    rob53 said:
    Real question is whether this fingerprint sensor can be spoofed. Article talks about being able to sense ridges but what about sensing a live body. We've all seen the full hand sensors in movies but do these actually work perfectly? What about wet or too dry hands? Or oily hands? As for a home button I agree with other commenters, it has to be something you can actually feel. For that matter what about the typical volume buttons? Will those go away for a totally waterproof enclosure?
    Nothing is spoof proof.  You can only make it as difficult as possible.  
  • Reply 28 of 43
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 1,648member
    ireland said:
    Something along these lines is enevitable and comprehendible. What I'm more interested in intellectually is how Apple handles the home button UI and the earpiece speaker in such a scenario. I presume the speaker just moves to the top bevel edge. I know pizio speaker or whatever they are called are possibly but am skeptical of their sound quality. But how is the home button UI handled?? If it's not an always-on portion or the display how can the user see it and press it in one go and how will they feel where it is in a dark room? Raise to wake? I like that I can feel the home button. Any alternative I can imagine is in some way a worse experience. Yes design is about trade offs, but this seems like it might be 'cool' replacing totally useable.
    Breaking news - Apple has decided that speakers are antiquated technology, take up valuable real estate and make waterproofing more difficult and so has decided to remove them from future iPhones. Market research has determined that the majority of iPhone users do not actually use their phone as a phone and people wishing to do so can easily use a bluetooth speaker or headset.... 
  • Reply 29 of 43
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 12,860member
    All i got to say is that if this report is accurate we are looking at some impressive technology here.    You dont need to like the idea to be impressed with what is claimed here.  If this tech makes it into the next iPhone i will be impressed even more so if it makes it into iPad.  
    spliff monkey
  • Reply 30 of 43
    ireland said:
    jbdragon said:
    Am I the only one who likes the home button and what rather keep it? It's what makes a iPhone a iPhone!!! What, so you want it to look like many Android phones? I like the real (Well now kind of fake) button that does a number of things, then taking up screen space for a home button.
    A physical button is the only thing that can help one orient the device in the dark or without looking. If the location of the camera lens, power plug, speakers or microphone didn't matter, then the physical home button wouldn't matter.
    Interesting suggestion. A phone that is exactly the same in either orientation. But what about when orientation is locked? Would we now have to sometimes tip the phone up to orient it correctly? Those things would annoy me though. Still, how does a user exit an app? Where do the press? What's the UX?
    Exactly.
  • Reply 31 of 43
    irelandireland Posts: 17,669member
    sog35 said:
    ireland said:
    sog35 said:
    foggyhill said:
    mjtomlin said:
    ireland said:

    rob53 said:
    Real question is whether this fingerprint sensor can be spoofed. Article talks about being able to sense ridges but what about sensing a live body. We've all seen the full hand sensors in movies but do these actually work perfectly? What about wet or too dry hands? Or oily hands? As for a home button I agree with other commenters, it has to be something you can actually feel.
    It doesn't necessarily need to be something you can feel if it works for the entire display, re unlocking. My issue is, for example, when you are in an app how do you get Home? Where do you press? Is it intuitive? Does it work every time? Is it only one interaction/press? The idea of 3D-touching the bottom edge to get to Home makes my skin crawl. As a power-user feature, sure, but as the standard way to go Home—yuck! Terrible idea. Leave those kinds of ideas to Microsoft.

    The brilliance of TouchID is that there is very little friction between it and the home button. They are used in conjunction with each other, but it is not completely necessary. A physical home button can be placed on the side of the device. The tech described above has nothing to do with the home button, it's about the fingerprint scanner. This would enable to move the Home button to make more room for the display but still allow a convenient way to scan finger prints.
    Why on earth would someone move the home button! There is a reason it's there in the first place.
    Why would anyone get rid of the click wheel on the iPod?
    Why would anyone get rid of the physical keyboard on a phone?
    Because the new way is better. Tell us the newer way.
    what specific function of a physical home button are you talking about?

    1. TouchID - replaced with glass reader

    2. Wake screen - lift to wake
    Where is the home button located? Don't say "on the display". Be specific.
    edited February 2017
  • Reply 32 of 43
    irelandireland Posts: 17,669member

    MplsP said:
    ireland said:
    Something along these lines is enevitable and comprehendible. What I'm more interested in intellectually is how Apple handles the home button UI and the earpiece speaker in such a scenario. I presume the speaker just moves to the top bevel edge. I know pizio speaker or whatever they are called are possibly but am skeptical of their sound quality. But how is the home button UI handled?? If it's not an always-on portion or the display how can the user see it and press it in one go and how will they feel where it is in a dark room? Raise to wake? I like that I can feel the home button. Any alternative I can imagine is in some way a worse experience. Yes design is about trade offs, but this seems like it might be 'cool' replacing totally useable.
    Breaking news - Apple has decided that speakers are antiquated technology, take up valuable real estate and make waterproofing more difficult and so has decided to remove them from future iPhones. Market research has determined that the majority of iPhone users do not actually use their phone as a phone and people wishing to do so can easily use a bluetooth speaker or headset.... 
    Can't tell if you are being sarcastic. The speaker is also for listening to audio (stereo) such as podcasts as I do and by his stats Arment tells us the vast majority of his customers do. 
  • Reply 33 of 43
    irelandireland Posts: 17,669member
    sog35 said:
    ireland said:
    sog35 said:
    ireland said:
    sog35 said:
    foggyhill said:
    mjtomlin said:
    ireland said:

    rob53 said:
    Real question is whether this fingerprint sensor can be spoofed. Article talks about being able to sense ridges but what about sensing a live body. We've all seen the full hand sensors in movies but do these actually work perfectly? What about wet or too dry hands? Or oily hands? As for a home button I agree with other commenters, it has to be something you can actually feel.
    It doesn't necessarily need to be something you can feel if it works for the entire display, re unlocking. My issue is, for example, when you are in an app how do you get Home? Where do you press? Is it intuitive? Does it work every time? Is it only one interaction/press? The idea of 3D-touching the bottom edge to get to Home makes my skin crawl. As a power-user feature, sure, but as the standard way to go Home—yuck! Terrible idea. Leave those kinds of ideas to Microsoft.

    The brilliance of TouchID is that there is very little friction between it and the home button. They are used in conjunction with each other, but it is not completely necessary. A physical home button can be placed on the side of the device. The tech described above has nothing to do with the home button, it's about the fingerprint scanner. This would enable to move the Home button to make more room for the display but still allow a convenient way to scan finger prints.
    Why on earth would someone move the home button! There is a reason it's there in the first place.
    Why would anyone get rid of the click wheel on the iPod?
    Why would anyone get rid of the physical keyboard on a phone?
    Because the new way is better. Tell us the newer way.
    what specific function of a physical home button are you talking about?

    1. TouchID - replaced with glass reader

    2. Wake screen - lift to wake
    Where is the home button located? Don't say "on the display". Be specific.
    Who says you need a home button?

    Think outside of the box

    I mean what is the purpose of the home button?

    To get to your home screen. Pretty sure there are more ways to get there than just a button.
    Think outside the box? Thanks, Steve. Now just tell me one of them and I'll tell you if it's better than what we have now where a 3-year-old and an octogenarian can do it without instruction. Otherwise we can wait and see and our discussion is over.
    edited February 2017 SpamSandwich
  • Reply 34 of 43
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 1,648member
    ireland said:

    MplsP said:
    ireland said:
    Something along these lines is enevitable and comprehendible. What I'm more interested in intellectually is how Apple handles the home button UI and the earpiece speaker in such a scenario. I presume the speaker just moves to the top bevel edge. I know pizio speaker or whatever they are called are possibly but am skeptical of their sound quality. But how is the home button UI handled?? If it's not an always-on portion or the display how can the user see it and press it in one go and how will they feel where it is in a dark room? Raise to wake? I like that I can feel the home button. Any alternative I can imagine is in some way a worse experience. Yes design is about trade offs, but this seems like it might be 'cool' replacing totally useable.
    Breaking news - Apple has decided that speakers are antiquated technology, take up valuable real estate and make waterproofing more difficult and so has decided to remove them from future iPhones. Market research has determined that the majority of iPhone users do not actually use their phone as a phone and people wishing to do so can easily use a bluetooth speaker or headset.... 
    Can't tell if you are being sarcastic. The speaker is also for listening to audio (stereo) such as podcasts as I do and by his stats Arment tells us the vast majority of his customers do. 
    Yes  -  sorry if it wasn't obvious enough. I was attempting to be a parody of the removal of the headphone jack
  • Reply 35 of 43
    irelandireland Posts: 17,669member
    sog35 said:
    ireland said:
    sog35 said:
    ireland said:
    sog35 said:
    ireland said:
    sog35 said:
    foggyhill said:
    mjtomlin said:
    ireland said:

    rob53 said:
    Real question is whether this fingerprint sensor can be spoofed. Article talks about being able to sense ridges but what about sensing a live body. We've all seen the full hand sensors in movies but do these actually work perfectly? What about wet or too dry hands? Or oily hands? As for a home button I agree with other commenters, it has to be something you can actually feel.
    It doesn't necessarily need to be something you can feel if it works for the entire display, re unlocking. My issue is, for example, when you are in an app how do you get Home? Where do you press? Is it intuitive? Does it work every time? Is it only one interaction/press? The idea of 3D-touching the bottom edge to get to Home makes my skin crawl. As a power-user feature, sure, but as the standard way to go Home—yuck! Terrible idea. Leave those kinds of ideas to Microsoft.

    The brilliance of TouchID is that there is very little friction between it and the home button. They are used in conjunction with each other, but it is not completely necessary. A physical home button can be placed on the side of the device. The tech described above has nothing to do with the home button, it's about the fingerprint scanner. This would enable to move the Home button to make more room for the display but still allow a convenient way to scan finger prints.
    Why on earth would someone move the home button! There is a reason it's there in the first place.
    Why would anyone get rid of the click wheel on the iPod?
    Why would anyone get rid of the physical keyboard on a phone?
    Because the new way is better. Tell us the newer way.
    what specific function of a physical home button are you talking about?

    1. TouchID - replaced with glass reader

    2. Wake screen - lift to wake
    Where is the home button located? Don't say "on the display". Be specific.
    Who says you need a home button?

    Think outside of the box

    I mean what is the purpose of the home button?

    To get to your home screen. Pretty sure there are more ways to get there than just a button.
    Think outside the box? Thanks, Steve. Now just tell me one of them and I'll tell you if it's better than what we have now where a 3-year-old and an octogenarian can do it without instruction. Otherwise we can wait and see and our discussion is over.
    how the hell would I know?
    Exactly. Discussion over.
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 36 of 43
    irelandireland Posts: 17,669member

    MplsP said:
    ireland said:

    MplsP said:
    ireland said:
    Something along these lines is enevitable and comprehendible. What I'm more interested in intellectually is how Apple handles the home button UI and the earpiece speaker in such a scenario. I presume the speaker just moves to the top bevel edge. I know pizio speaker or whatever they are called are possibly but am skeptical of their sound quality. But how is the home button UI handled?? If it's not an always-on portion or the display how can the user see it and press it in one go and how will they feel where it is in a dark room? Raise to wake? I like that I can feel the home button. Any alternative I can imagine is in some way a worse experience. Yes design is about trade offs, but this seems like it might be 'cool' replacing totally useable.
    Breaking news - Apple has decided that speakers are antiquated technology, take up valuable real estate and make waterproofing more difficult and so has decided to remove them from future iPhones. Market research has determined that the majority of iPhone users do not actually use their phone as a phone and people wishing to do so can easily use a bluetooth speaker or headset.... 
    Can't tell if you are being sarcastic. The speaker is also for listening to audio (stereo) such as podcasts as I do and by his stats Arment tells us the vast majority of his customers do. 
    Yes  -  sorry if it wasn't obvious enough. I was attempting to be a parody of the removal of the headphone jack
    lol
  • Reply 37 of 43
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,130moderator
    mattinoz said:
    ireland said:
    Something along these lines is enevitable and comprehendible. What I'm more interested in intellectually is how Apple handles the home button UI and the earpiece speaker in such a scenario. I presume the speaker just moves to the top bevel edge. I know pizio speaker or whatever they are called are possibly but am skeptical of their sound quality. But how is the home button UI handled?? If it's not an always-on portion or the display how can the user see it and press it in one go and how will they feel where it is in a dark room? Raise to wake? I like that I can feel the home button. Any alternative I can imagine is in some way a worse experience. Yes design is about trade offs, but this seems like it might be 'cool' replacing totally useable.
    They could just stop the glass panel for the screen just short of the top and bottom to create a small resonance chamber each end to direct speaker output forward 
    Then no matter which way you pick up the phone and hold one of these edges to your ear it will hear clearly. bonus one forward facing speakers while watching video or facetiming (seeing the facetime camera under screen has patent already issued). Bonus two glass and indeed anything important would be slightly inboard of the metal corners, so less prone to damage hopefully.

    You touch on an interesting point.  If the entire screen is the fingerprint sensor, then it could be touched anywhere and at any angle.  So in a dark room you'd need only touch anywhere on the screen with a registered finger/thumb.  It's even possible they could allow you to use the phone upside down, by adding a mic on each end and a phone speaker on each end.  The whole screen would be the proximity sensor.  Crazy.
    edited February 2017 repressthis
  • Reply 38 of 43
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,130moderator
    ireland said:
    ireland said:
    Something along these lines is enevitable and comprehendible. What I'm more interested in intellectually is how Apple handles the home button UI and the earpiece speaker in such a scenario. I presume the speaker just moves to the top bevel edge. I know pizio speaker or whatever they are called are possibly but am skeptical of their sound quality. But how is the home button UI handled?? If it's not an always-on portion or the display how can the user see it and press it in one go and how will they feel where it is in a dark room? Raise to wake? I like that I can feel the home button. Any alternative I can imagine is in some way a worse experience. Yes design is about trade offs, but this seems like it might be 'cool' replacing totally useable.
    Sure, it is. But in the same way that going from a clickable home button to the current capacitive button. Or going from a physical keyboard to a touchscreen keyboard -- technically less good in that measure, but overall worth it. This could be no different.
    I disagree. A non moving home button is better because its failure rate is likely much less and you can programmatically give the user the feel they like. And the user can still 'feel' the ring and feel the press-click. If someone can describe a better method I'd switch over. Describe it to me—how do I exit an app?

    The screen could still be divided into an app space and a home button space. The Home button space could be dynamic in the sense that other information presented in it, like Back, Share and Tabs buttons, etc could rotate in place when the screen is orientated to landscape, while still remaining on the same end of the phone. That's more desirable than what happens currently, with those controls taking away a wide band along the bottom of the limited shorter dimension of the screen in landscape orientation.

    And the whole virtual Home button space could fade away in some contexts or could act like the Mac's new Touch Bar, presenting context sensitive controls. Think video playback controls, game buttons/controls, etc.  So the iPhone and iPad would feel more like the new Macs in this regard.

    And when the phone is off, touching anywhere with a registered finger/thumb unlocks, as the entire screen in that context would act as the fingerprint sensor. If touched with an unregistered digit, the screen would simply light up with the lock screen or password entry screen. So, you could have a dedicated area for a Home button when needed (to return to the home screen from apps) but also have the convenience of an anywhere TouchID when the screen is off.
    edited February 2017
  • Reply 39 of 43
    ireland said:
    mjtomlin said:
    ireland said:

    rob53 said:
    Real question is whether this fingerprint sensor can be spoofed. Article talks about being able to sense ridges but what about sensing a live body. We've all seen the full hand sensors in movies but do these actually work perfectly? What about wet or too dry hands? Or oily hands? As for a home button I agree with other commenters, it has to be something you can actually feel.
    It doesn't necessarily need to be something you can feel if it works for the entire display, re unlocking. My issue is, for example, when you are in an app how do you get Home? Where do you press? Is it intuitive? Does it work every time? Is it only one interaction/press? The idea of 3D-touching the bottom edge to get to Home makes my skin crawl. As a power-user feature, sure, but as the standard way to go Home—yuck! Terrible idea. Leave those kinds of ideas to Microsoft.

    The brilliance of TouchID is that there is very little friction between it and the home button. They are used in conjunction with each other, but it is not completely necessary. A physical home button can be placed on the side of the device.
    Please, no. I'd hate a side home button.
    Apple Watch has a physical side home button...
  • Reply 40 of 43
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,130moderator
    Preparation is underway...





    repressthisbestkeptsecret
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