Apple captured 540% the profits of Samsung Mobile in 2016 as China's phone makers battled ...

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  • Reply 41 of 81
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    Rayz2016 said:

    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Avon B7 said, "No manufacturer of low or mid tier phones has even the slightest intention of massive profit. Comparing those profits to those of Apple serves little or no purpose."

    If maximizing profits isn't the goal, then it's time for those companies to get out of the business. 

    The criticism of the points DED made with statements like this are pretty ridiculous. 

    Apple and Samsung are the only two companies capable of reliably profiting from the smartphone industry. Samsung primarily in components and Apple in the finished product and vertically integrated system. 

    Samsung is attempting to move to Apple's vertically integrated model much to the consternation of Google. Samsung's plan is to move off of Android all together and over to Tizen. Samsung's Tizen phone sales in India are pretty nice. And it is quite worrisome to Google. Because if Samsung is successful, the only high end players will be Apple and Samsung. And neither will be running on Android. 

    https://techviral.net/samsung-shift-devices-android-tizen-os/

    So it actually be self-fulfilling if the low end Android device manufacturers aren't interested in large profits. Because it won't happen. There will be Apple and Samsung. The others, including Huawei won't be playing at the high end of anything. Samsung's Gear S3 makes the Android wear watches from Huawei and LG look atrocious. 
    You appear to be confusing 'massive' profit with 'maximising' profit.

    My point is that low to mid tier manufacturers can't get away with 30-40% margins and they know it. That isn't part of the plan.

    Huawei hasn't even stretched its legs in the premium segment but has already released a phone well over the $1,000 mark and has units at all the price points down to the entry level. It took such a jump on quality with the P9 that it has allowed itself to take a breather with last week's P10 announcements which were more lifestyle focussed. Expect a bigger jump later in the year with the successor to the Mate 9 and perhaps an attack on the US market.
    No large profit, no large R&D budget.
    No large R&D budget, reduced innovation and no synergy of innovation across product lines.

    Samsung and Apple both benefit from the above; Apple more so as it controls all of its OS's, and much of the ecosystem. I would note that the only glitch in Apple's ecosystem is that many of its users benefit from x86 on Apple's Mac products, limiting what Apple can do to remove Intel from that product line.

    But of course, if all you sell is handsets near equal to every other handset in a particular market segment, then I agree with you that Huawei is doing just fine eking out a modest profit.
    Is this still the case though? Do folk still need to run Windows? The main reason for doing so was MSOffce, or so I thought. 
    There are still classes of applications that require x86, and while some of those have and will migrate to the cloud or Mac OS, it is an edge today that x86 has over Mac OS. Being able to host Window OS on a Mac is a necessity for some.

    Personally, I think that Apple should continue with x86 until MS deprecates it for Windows. In the meantime though, there are a great many applications that are available for iOS, and it seems a natural that there would be an iOS analog of a Mac Book (with a Touch Bar) in the near future, at a lesser price.
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  • Reply 42 of 81
    StrangeDaysstrangedays Posts: 13,220member
    blastdoor said:
    buzdots said:
    blastdoor said:
    My takeaways --

    1. Despite the enormous profit advantage, Apple does not seem able to completely knock the competition out of the high-end market. The Chinese are not as far behind in terms of features and performance as one might expect given the resource disadvantage. I think this is because Apple can't come up with enough good ideas for investing those profits back into the iPhone business. That's not a criticism, it's just the nature of a mature product -- innovations come more slowly because the opportunities for meaningful improvement are far less obvious than they were when "copy/paste" was a big new feature. 

    2. The Mac is a very profitable business that deserves more investment from Apple! I think it is realistic to believe that Apple could double (at least) its share of the global PC market if they tried. They should dominate the high-end of the PC market in the way they dominate the high-end of the smartphone market. 

    The fanaticism that use to surround and boost Apple is dying at a rate that may be unrecoverable without some serious reality distortion again.


    I remember back around the turn of the century the only people still enthusiastic about Apple products were hard core cultists. They were the kinds of people who never questioned anything Apple did and believed everything Apple said. For example, the cultists really believed that a 400 MHz G4 was faster than an 1 GHz Athlon. 

    These days, I'm getting the impression that cultists are once again becoming a disproportionately large share of the people making positive comments about Apple. 

    Don't get me wrong -- things today are not nearly as bad as they were back then. But my sense is that there is a negative correlation between rationality and positive commentary on Apple these days. Five years ago, the only people saying negative things about Apple were hard core haters. 
    I don't subscribe. Apple is more popular than it has ever been, and there is a much smaller percentage of those consumers who are diehard enthusiasts. Yet there remains plenty of positive comments to be made about Apple due to the historic popularity and success of the company, more so than ever before. 

    You say "things aren't nearly as bad", I say "things aren't bad at all". I think the DOOM we hear from old apple fans (who always, always say they've been buying Apple gear since yada yada) is due to their own aging and nostalgia. The notion that things used to be better, or are getting worse, etc... It's a pessimistic view that seems to hit older people. 
    edited March 2017
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  • Reply 43 of 81
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,330member
    avon b7 said:
    In spite of the recall, $8.3 billion operating profits from the mobile division is still good business and let's not forget that Samsung also makes a profit out of every iPhone sold through the components it supplies to Apple.

    Why? Did I accidentally stumble onto Samsung Insider?  Why do you feel a need to prop up Samsung?

    Also, unless i'm mistaken Samsung's semiconductor division is different than its mobile business and thus component profits have jack to do with their mobile profits or lack thereof. 
    No props to Samsung from me nor any combining of mobile profits with component profits. Just stating that a few billion from your mobile unit is very nice and from whatever your main competitor does in the premium handset segment, you benefit directly, as your frenemy is giving you business. Big Business.
    edited March 2017
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  • Reply 44 of 81
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 3,857member
    Rayz2016 said:
    blastdoor said:


    2. The Mac is a very profitable business that deserves more investment from Apple! I think it is realistic to believe that Apple could double (at least) its share of the global PC market if they tried. They should dominate the high-end of the PC market in the way they dominate the high-end of the smartphone market. 
    This might help you understand things a little better. 

    http://www.itechpost.com/articles/74000/20170113/why-pc-sales-keep-falling.htm
    This might help you understand things a little better:

    Apple sold 18 million Macs in 2016, representing about 7% out of 270 million PCs sold

    If the PC market declines by 10% but Apple doubles its share, it would mean growth in Mac sales of about 90 percent. 

    is that math too hard? 
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  • Reply 45 of 81
    buzdotsbuzdots Posts: 452member
    sog35 said:
    What a joke post.

    No innovation in Apple?

    What was Touch ID? Apple Pay?  Apple Watch - and don't try minimizing this. No one 4 years ago though that an Apple Watch would sell tens of millions of units a year and do the things it does today - mobile payments, notifications, fitness, health, ect... Home Kit. Health Kit. Did you not see what Apple is doing in the health sector and medical research?  3D touch. Airpods. Portrait mode. Innovation at Apple is alive and well.
    I didn't say they had stopped innovating, I said it had slowed to a trickle.  Alive and well?.... well...

    Fingerprint recognition has been in the works for decades - back when years started with a 19. Motorola had it on one of their phones about 2 years before Apple.
    Apple Watch started its work up in the early 2000's - heck, Apple filed for a patent for a kinetic wristband w/keyboard BEFORE Steve died.  Yep, I am sure it is doing far more that even he surmised it might - thanks to third party apps.

    ApplePay - a masterful job.

    I will give you HealthKit, CareKit, ResearchKit - fabulous frameworks...

    AirPods?  Portrait Mode?  Not mind-blowing innovation

    The only joke was the switchboard operator.
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  • Reply 46 of 81
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,330member
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Avon B7 said, "No manufacturer of low or mid tier phones has even the slightest intention of massive profit. Comparing those profits to those of Apple serves little or no purpose."

    If maximizing profits isn't the goal, then it's time for those companies to get out of the business. 

    The criticism of the points DED made with statements like this are pretty ridiculous. 

    Apple and Samsung are the only two companies capable of reliably profiting from the smartphone industry. Samsung primarily in components and Apple in the finished product and vertically integrated system. 

    Samsung is attempting to move to Apple's vertically integrated model much to the consternation of Google. Samsung's plan is to move off of Android all together and over to Tizen. Samsung's Tizen phone sales in India are pretty nice. And it is quite worrisome to Google. Because if Samsung is successful, the only high end players will be Apple and Samsung. And neither will be running on Android. 

    https://techviral.net/samsung-shift-devices-android-tizen-os/

    So it actually be self-fulfilling if the low end Android device manufacturers aren't interested in large profits. Because it won't happen. There will be Apple and Samsung. The others, including Huawei won't be playing at the high end of anything. Samsung's Gear S3 makes the Android wear watches from Huawei and LG look atrocious. 
    You appear to be confusing 'massive' profit with 'maximising' profit.

    My point is that low to mid tier manufacturers can't get away with 30-40% margins and they know it. That isn't part of the plan.

    Huawei hasn't even stretched its legs in the premium segment but has already released a phone well over the $1,000 mark and has units at all the price points down to the entry level. It took such a jump on quality with the P9 that it has allowed itself to take a breather with last week's P10 announcements which were more lifestyle focussed. Expect a bigger jump later in the year with the successor to the Mate 9 and perhaps an attack on the US market.
    Sorry dude. But Huawei is in deep SHIT.

    They missed profit targets in the phone division and massive layoffs are coming:

    https://www.xda-developers.com/internal-memos-at-huawei-talk-about-missed-profit-targets/

    “Huawei will not pay for those that don’t work hard,” which suggests the company may start cutting back jobs. Huawei employs a total of 170,000 people, with 45% of them working on research and development. A Huawei engineer is quoted by Reuters as saying “everybody is nervous” since they know they are now at risk of being laid off.

    Deep SHIT Huawei.

    As Apple dominates the top end and cheap POS china phones start under pricing even cheap SHIT Huawei phones.

    Huawei will quickly disappear into irrelevance like Xiaomi before it.
    LOL.

    Wasn't it you that said Huawei was just copying other people's hard work? And now you place a quote claiming that Huawei has 45% of its 170,000 workforce dedicated to R&D?

    They should be fired on the spot as they don't actually research and develop anything, right?

    Let's be serious for a moment. Until relatively recently, Huawei's mobile division didn't even exist. And now your quote claims it represents a third of their business!

    Believe me, I doubt Huawei will do anything drastic until it has at least had a crack at the US market but as I said earlier, it could all unravel at any point, but the same applies to Apple.

    It is well known that they are working on their own system but that's all I know. I have no idea how developed it is.

    Right now Huawei is doing great even if the top brass want more. They have released a string of absolutely phenomenal phones (in both the high and low ends) to critical acclaim. They have an ARM licence and are designing their own silicon. They have probably the fastest charging technology in the business. Android 7 has borrowed from Huawei's tweaks to Android. They are creating far deeper symbiosis with their networking infrastructure which means better, stronger and more efficient use of 4G - less missed calls, more stable connections etc.

    Not bad for a bunch of copy artists.


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  • Reply 47 of 81
    fallenjtfallenjt Posts: 4,057member
    Apple took the damn Caviars on top of the rice bowl and let other cheap craps smartphone makers share the left over rice...
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  • Reply 48 of 81
    buzdotsbuzdots Posts: 452member
    I don't subscribe. Apple is more popular than it has ever been, and there is a much smaller percentage of those consumers who are diehard enthusiasts. Yet there remains plenty of positive comments to be made about Apple due to the historic popularity and success of the company, more so than ever before. 

    You say "things aren't nearly as bad", I say "things aren't bad at all". I think the DOOM we hear from old apple fans (who always, always say they've been buying Apple gear since yada yada) is due to their own aging and nostalgia. The notion that things used to be better, or are getting worse, etc... It's a pessimistic view that seems to hit older people. 
    Apple IS more popular than it ever has been - and a MUCH smaller percentage of diehard enthusiasts.  My point exactly.
    Apple has become more main stream.  Windows users used to spit (figuratively) on Apple products of any kind - now not so much.  Most have opened their eyes to a better, classier product.  Saturation is the key word here, I believe.

    To continue to lead, you must push the envelope, not just put more postage on it.

    I'm not sure about old farts being more pessimistic... maybe.
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  • Reply 49 of 81
    freeperfreeper Posts: 77member
    sog35 said:

    Those profit figures from Samsung are lies.

    They are transfering profit from their chip division to mobile division.

    If Samsung was buying chips from other companies their mobile division would have ZERO profit. But their internal chip division gives Samsung mobile MASSIVE DISCOUNTS to show false profits.
    Yeah. Sure they are lies. Explain to me genius ... how can Samsung sell all those phones and still not make a profit? It ... is ... impossible. You do realize that the Galaxy S, S Edge/Plus and Note phones cost substantially more than iPhones right? And in South Korea - where nationalism is a huge factor and America - where Apple hatred is a huge factor as is the tinkering community - Samsung sells about half as many of their premium phones as Apple does iPhones. Look, if Apple can make $500 billion by selling 100 million iPhones, then Samsung can make $5 billion by selling 20 million Galaxy S and 5 million Galaxy Note phones. 

    Also, a major reason: why would Samsung lose BILLIONS in mobile only to cover their losses? Pride? Samsung has tons invested in their mobile division: manufacturing, R&D, marketing, you name it. Why? Because they are making money. If Samsung were not making money, they would make fewer phones. Like Sony did. Sony tried to compete with Apple and Samsung. Because of terrible marketing, they didn't. So they just cut their sales and marketing budget, drastically reduced the number of phones they make a year and now eke out a small profit. Were Samsung not making money, they would do the same. Another example: tablets. Samsung was losing their shirt on tablets. What did they do? Start making FAR LESS. They don't even try to compete with the iPad anymore like they did as recently as 3 years ago when they came out with the Galaxy Note Pro (a prototype for the iPad Pro) for enterprise users. They also trimmed their tablet product line from like a dozen to like 3 or 4 with only 1 that costs more than $250, the rest are designed to be bundled with their phones in carrier promotions. Not just tablets. Samsung also tried to be a major PC manufacturer too, but couldn't compete with HP, Dell, Toshiba and Lenovo so now they just make a very tiny number of PCs and Chromebooks. Sony? Same deal. They once did pretty good business in PCs but when the PC market collapsed they spun their Vaio PC business off. 

    Look, you can keep wanting to believe that no one is making money but Apple selling smartphones. Or that the collapse of Android because no one is making money is imminent. But come on ... it has been almost 10 years. There are more companies making Android devices than ever. And there are more Android device sales than ever. Granted, HTC is in real trouble. But when they finally go under, another company like Asus or Huawei will buy them out and get their American carrier agreements, support channels and patent portfolio. But Samsung, LG, Asustek, Acer, Sony, Kyocera and the Chinese companies aren't going anywhere. They are either making plenty of money, or are at least making as much money as the companies that have always made cheap TVs and stereos have made, which means they aren't going anywhere. And as the years pass by, when smartphones go from being trendsetting conversation pieces to being just another product - as happened with cars, radios, TVs, washing machines, PCs and everything else in tech - that favors the companies that can make good electronics that do not cost a whole lot of money. Again, look at the radio, telephone and TV business. A lot of the companies that made "premium" products in those categories in the 70s, 80s and 90s are out of business, but a lot of the budget manufacturers are still around. Some of them actually bought the names and trademarks of the "premium" companies when they went under. That is the way the tech business has always been, and it is not going to change just because it is Apple ruling the roost this time and not GE, RCA, IBM or AT&T. Note: this is not a prediction that Apple will go out of business or be diminished. It is just pointing out the reality based on market conditions that always existed that Apple will not enjoy the type of monopoly with smartphones that they did with the iPod, which let's face it was something of a niche product anyway. 
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  • Reply 50 of 81
    freeperfreeper Posts: 77member
    Avon B7 said, "No manufacturer of low or mid tier phones has even the slightest intention of massive profit. Comparing those profits to those of Apple serves little or no purpose."

    If maximizing profits isn't the goal, then it's time for those companies to get out of the business. 

    The criticism of the points DED made with statements like this are pretty ridiculous. 

    Apple and Samsung are the only two companies capable of reliably profiting from the smartphone industry. Samsung primarily in components and Apple in the finished product and vertically integrated system. 

    Samsung is attempting to move to Apple's vertically integrated model much to the consternation of Google. Samsung's plan is to move off of Android all together and over to Tizen. Samsung's Tizen phone sales in India are pretty nice. And it is quite worrisome to Google. Because if Samsung is successful, the only high end players will be Apple and Samsung. And neither will be running on Android. 

    https://techviral.net/samsung-shift-devices-android-tizen-os/

    So it actually be self-fulfilling if the low end Android device manufacturers aren't interested in large profits. Because it won't happen. There will be Apple and Samsung. The others, including Huawei won't be playing at the high end of anything. Samsung's Gear S3 makes the Android wear watches from Huawei and LG look atrocious. 
    1. Maximizing profits is the goal, but these companies do not need Apple's profits to justify staying in business. Just like Apple didn't need IBM, Dell or Microsoft profits to stay in business for the 20 years before the iPhone made them a bigger player in the tech world than the likes of RCA and Sony.

    2. Apple and Samsung are not the only companies capable of profiting from the smartphone industry. Several companies make profits on components - Samsung for instance primarily uses Qualcomm chips - and several companies reliably make profits. They just don't make Apple profits, just like Apple never made IBM profits selling PCs.

    3. Samsung's Tizen sales are a fraction of their Android sales in India and everywhere else. And Samsung will not make Tizen viable without an app store. If Microsoft could not develop a viable app store, what chance does Samsung have? 

    4. Low end Android manufacturers who were never Apple to begin with get what is large profits TO THEM. If you were a company that had $500 million in annual revenue before Android, why on earth do you need to have $5 billion in annual revenue to justify staying in business now? Huawei, Asus and Acer were budget electronics makers before Android, they are the same now. Before you tell them to stop making Android phones and tablets, tell them to stop making the cheap TVs, networking equipment, Windows PCs etc. that they were before Android and iOS. The same with Xiaomi and the others ... they were Internet service providers and mobile providers who got into Android hardware in order to use it to sell data and Internet plans and to get more people to rent movies through them. Xiaomi's business of selling smart TVs and TV boxes so people can rent movies through their Netflix type service is huge, and they make far more money on that than they do Android phones. It is just that selling Android phones gives them brand recognition that allows them to sell more smart TVs and get more people to choose their Netflix type service over the competition.

    Please guys. End the wishful thinking. Android isn't going anywhere, Samsung isn't going anywhere, and Samsung Android isn't going anywhere. And another thing ... learn something about the tech industry beyond Apple products before spouting nonsense like this.
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  • Reply 51 of 81
    freeperfreeper Posts: 77member
    sog35 said:
    And yet Samsung is selling 40% less premium phones than just 4 years ago..........
    While Apple is selling 40% more premium phones.

    Its pretty obvious which company's share of premium phones is shrinking and which is growing.
    What does that have to do with your utterly false claim that Samsung wasn't making any profits at all? A claim that made no sense whatsoever given the volume of Samsung's sales?

    Also, Samsung selling 40% fewer premium phones is a good thing for Android. Why? Because it means that Huawei and other companies are selling MORE. If Samsung were actually selling all the expensive phones and making all the money in Android, it would be bad for Android and Google. Having more players is good for Android and Google, which is why Google encouraged it by partnering with Huawei to make the fantastic and huge selling (by their standards) Nexus 6P. It is also why Google partnered with HTC to make the Pixel phones, to keep them from going out of business. 

    But despite selling 40% fewer premium phones than 4 years ago, Samsung's revenues and profits were higher in 2016 than they were in 2014 DESPITE the Galaxy Note 7 debacle. Why? Because Samsung came out with the Edge line in 2015 and started charging $150 more per device for it, even though the Edge screen costs nowhere near $150 bucks. Samsung is also making and selling fewer cheap phone models, focusing more on their premium and more profitable midrange phones like the Galaxy A series. Samsung is learning from Apple's example and is making more money. Unless you are someone who simply wants Apple to have 90% market share because, well, just because, that is a good thing, right? Because let me tell you ... Samsung's R&D and trial-and-error marketing has given Apple a ton of ideas to rip off for the iPhone 6 and iPhone 8, without which Apple would be still selling 4' devices that had undergone no substantial changes since coming out with TouchID and 64 bit CPUs for the iPhone 5. Even Apple Pay was modeled after a Google product. (And Samsung Pay is better than both Apple Pay and Android Pay because it doesn't require NFC. Sorry, but it is true.). Competition is a good thing that helps companies, including Apple, and everyone but the fanatics is capable of admitting it.
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  • Reply 52 of 81
    brucemcbrucemc Posts: 1,541member
    blastdoor said:
    My takeaways --

    1. Despite the enormous profit advantage, Apple does not seem able to completely knock the competition out of the high-end market. The Chinese are not as far behind in terms of features and performance as one might expect given the resource disadvantage. I think this is because Apple can't come up with enough good ideas for investing those profits back into the iPhone business. That's not a criticism, it's just the nature of a mature product -- innovations come more slowly because the opportunities for meaningful improvement are far less obvious than they were when "copy/paste" was a big new feature. 

    2. The Mac is a very profitable business that deserves more investment from Apple! I think it is realistic to believe that Apple could double (at least) its share of the global PC market if they tried. They should dominate the high-end of the PC market in the way they dominate the high-end of the smartphone market. 
    On #1, there is a lot more to the "high-end" than speeds, feeds, and point features.  Compared with Chinese brands Apple continues to have a lead in the h/w product itself - specifically in custom silicon, cameras, biometrics - and also security, reliability, and of course that "ecosystem".  

    On #2, I agree that Apple does have room to grow in the "PC" market, although that is a declining market itself.  Apple already dominates the high-end here - I have seen some stats like 80% of units over $1000 USD in the past (maybe that is down a little bit given the longer cycles of updates?).  An updated Mac Pro would be useful to keep the "video/photo" Pro market engaged with Apple more, but it would not move the needle on either revenues or units within the Mac business itself.  The primary area for Apple to grow the Mac line is in the next level of the consumer & business tier - an entry level $799 MacBook based on A-Series processors could grow sales (profitably).
    tmay
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  • Reply 53 of 81
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,043member
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Avon B7 said, "No manufacturer of low or mid tier phones has even the slightest intention of massive profit. Comparing those profits to those of Apple serves little or no purpose."

    If maximizing profits isn't the goal, then it's time for those companies to get out of the business. 

    The criticism of the points DED made with statements like this are pretty ridiculous. 

    Apple and Samsung are the only two companies capable of reliably profiting from the smartphone industry. Samsung primarily in components and Apple in the finished product and vertically integrated system. 

    Samsung is attempting to move to Apple's vertically integrated model much to the consternation of Google. Samsung's plan is to move off of Android all together and over to Tizen. Samsung's Tizen phone sales in India are pretty nice. And it is quite worrisome to Google. Because if Samsung is successful, the only high end players will be Apple and Samsung. And neither will be running on Android. 

    https://techviral.net/samsung-shift-devices-android-tizen-os/

    So it actually be self-fulfilling if the low end Android device manufacturers aren't interested in large profits. Because it won't happen. There will be Apple and Samsung. The others, including Huawei won't be playing at the high end of anything. Samsung's Gear S3 makes the Android wear watches from Huawei and LG look atrocious. 
    You appear to be confusing 'massive' profit with 'maximising' profit.

    My point is that low to mid tier manufacturers can't get away with 30-40% margins and they know it. That isn't part of the plan.

    Huawei hasn't even stretched its legs in the premium segment but has already released a phone well over the $1,000 mark and has units at all the price points down to the entry level. It took such a jump on quality with the P9 that it has allowed itself to take a breather with last week's P10 announcements which were more lifestyle focussed. Expect a bigger jump later in the year with the successor to the Mate 9 and perhaps an attack on the US market.
    Sorry dude. But Huawei is in deep SHIT.

    They missed profit targets in the phone division and massive layoffs are coming:

    https://www.xda-developers.com/internal-memos-at-huawei-talk-about-missed-profit-targets/

    “Huawei will not pay for those that don’t work hard,” which suggests the company may start cutting back jobs. Huawei employs a total of 170,000 people, with 45% of them working on research and development. A Huawei engineer is quoted by Reuters as saying “everybody is nervous” since they know they are now at risk of being laid off.

    Deep SHIT Huawei.

    As Apple dominates the top end and cheap POS china phones start under pricing even cheap SHIT Huawei phones.

    Huawei will quickly disappear into irrelevance like Xiaomi before it.

    You do know that Huawei is a government funded business entity, as long as Huawei is doing things which the China government feels is in the best interest of the country they will be fine and will be around for a while longer. It has nothing to do with whether they are making money or not. As far as I know Xiaomi does not fall into the Huawei category of business in China. I do not know how the Government see them in the big scheme of things.
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  • Reply 54 of 81
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,330member
    maestro64 said:
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Avon B7 said, "No manufacturer of low or mid tier phones has even the slightest intention of massive profit. Comparing those profits to those of Apple serves little or no purpose."

    If maximizing profits isn't the goal, then it's time for those companies to get out of the business. 

    The criticism of the points DED made with statements like this are pretty ridiculous. 

    Apple and Samsung are the only two companies capable of reliably profiting from the smartphone industry. Samsung primarily in components and Apple in the finished product and vertically integrated system. 

    Samsung is attempting to move to Apple's vertically integrated model much to the consternation of Google. Samsung's plan is to move off of Android all together and over to Tizen. Samsung's Tizen phone sales in India are pretty nice. And it is quite worrisome to Google. Because if Samsung is successful, the only high end players will be Apple and Samsung. And neither will be running on Android. 

    https://techviral.net/samsung-shift-devices-android-tizen-os/

    So it actually be self-fulfilling if the low end Android device manufacturers aren't interested in large profits. Because it won't happen. There will be Apple and Samsung. The others, including Huawei won't be playing at the high end of anything. Samsung's Gear S3 makes the Android wear watches from Huawei and LG look atrocious. 
    You appear to be confusing 'massive' profit with 'maximising' profit.

    My point is that low to mid tier manufacturers can't get away with 30-40% margins and they know it. That isn't part of the plan.

    Huawei hasn't even stretched its legs in the premium segment but has already released a phone well over the $1,000 mark and has units at all the price points down to the entry level. It took such a jump on quality with the P9 that it has allowed itself to take a breather with last week's P10 announcements which were more lifestyle focussed. Expect a bigger jump later in the year with the successor to the Mate 9 and perhaps an attack on the US market.
    Sorry dude. But Huawei is in deep SHIT.

    They missed profit targets in the phone division and massive layoffs are coming:

    https://www.xda-developers.com/internal-memos-at-huawei-talk-about-missed-profit-targets/

    “Huawei will not pay for those that don’t work hard,” which suggests the company may start cutting back jobs. Huawei employs a total of 170,000 people, with 45% of them working on research and development. A Huawei engineer is quoted by Reuters as saying “everybody is nervous” since they know they are now at risk of being laid off.

    Deep SHIT Huawei.

    As Apple dominates the top end and cheap POS china phones start under pricing even cheap SHIT Huawei phones.

    Huawei will quickly disappear into irrelevance like Xiaomi before it.

    You do know that Huawei is a government funded business entity, as long as Huawei is doing things which the China government feels is in the best interest of the country they will be fine and will be around for a while longer. It has nothing to do with whether they are making money or not. As far as I know Xiaomi does not fall into the Huawei category of business in China. I do not know how the Government see them in the big scheme of things.

    jbdragon said:
    lwio said:
    and Apple makes an increasingly large profit from services including the App Store were Android makers have a very hard time making anything at all.
    This is the problem with Android, and Windows has gone through the same type of thing. Android phones have turned into a commodity. There is very little money to be made in selling the hardware. Everyone is fighting each other to sell the phones and so prices drop down to nothing. So then like windows, you throw on 3rd party crapware because you get a little money from that which is better then breaking even or losing money. People don't like that crap on their phones. The only real winner with Android is Google because they're making money from their services and from Ad's. Google doesn't care if you make money selling Android phones or not, Google still wins. If you disappear, there's always someone else to take your place. Google still wins. Google's services have to be up front and center. Other company's are trying to offer their own things. Samesung had done their MILK Music service thing which has failed. They're trying to make money with Samesung Pay, which in the end will fail over Android Pay. Google is trying to sell their Pixel phones at iPhone prices. I don't think they're selling all that many of them. Android all this time has been marketed as the CHEAP phones. Why would you then turn around, stop selling cheap NEXUS phones and sell iPhone priced Pixel phones? It's just not going to work well. China is the exception to the rule so much in that Google doesn't have a presence in China. So people there are going to 3rd party App stores. Pirating like crazy and Viruses are running rampant there. You can fork Android, but then you can't use Google's services and there's a lot of other Negatives to go along with it. Amazon tried with their Fire Phone and it bombed. The EU is trying to do something about it, but I don't see how. There's no money in selling low end to mid range phones. Who would you rather be, Android (Everyone) selling 1 BILLION Android phones and breaking even or Apple selling 1 iPhone and making a $50 profit? How about 10 billion for Android, still breaking even, or 10 iPhones making a $500 profit. So who's winning? Well the Investors and Android fanboys will say Android, they have a huge Market share over Apple, Look 10 billion Android phones to 10 iphones. Not even close. While everyone else with a brain will say Apple WON. They actually made a $500 profit and only had to sell 10 iPhones to do it. You've heard the saying, "Work Smarter, not harder!" What is Market Share in the phone industry getting you?
    Forgive me for taking a simplistic approach but there is an angle you haven't touched on. Android handsets sell 10 billion. Let's run with that notion but forget Google, Apple, Samsung etc. just for a second. Let's forget the profits or lack of them. That means 10 billion people got a phone and it serves their use, for better or worse, but it satisfies their use. That angle is key.

    Let's put the manufacturers back in and we see Apple were ignored by 10 billion shoppers. 

    Should Apple stay premium and ignore those 10 billion users and hope there are enough left to keep buying high margin, premium phones well into the future, or move into a lower tier in the hope of selling much more units?

    Will the main future earnings drivers be unit sales or services?

    If services are going to make up an ever increasing part of revenues, doesn't it make sense to have the largest possible pool to feed off? Surely that pool implies getting a lot of the 10 billion onto your platform or should Apple open up its platform to Android users?

    There are lots of possible scenarios but most of the ones that involve services require the highest possible share to feed off. The same logic applies to 'home kit' style devices.

    I'm in the camp that says smartphones have hit the comfort zone and shoppers can get far more than they ever could out of a mid tier phone and that premium prices will be a harder sell in a saturated market with a decent spread of top class phones. Past the iPhone 8/7s I see Apple having a harder time shifting units in the premium segment.


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  • Reply 55 of 81
    DanielErandanieleran Posts: 290editor
    freeper said:
    sog35 said:
    And yet Samsung is selling 40% less premium phones than just 4 years ago..........
    While Apple is selling 40% more premium phones.

    Its pretty obvious which company's share of premium phones is shrinking and which is growing.
    What does that have to do with your utterly false claim that Samsung wasn't making any profits at all? A claim that made no sense whatsoever given the volume of Samsung's sales?

    Also, Samsung selling 40% fewer premium phones is a good thing for Android. Why? Because it means that Huawei and other companies are selling MORE. If Samsung were actually selling all the expensive phones and making all the money in Android, it would be bad for Android and Google. Having more players is good for Android and Google, which is why Google encouraged it by partnering with Huawei to make the fantastic and huge selling (by their standards) Nexus 6P. It is also why Google partnered with HTC to make the Pixel phones, to keep them from going out of business. 

    But despite selling 40% fewer premium phones than 4 years ago, Samsung's revenues and profits were higher in 2016 than they were in 2014 DESPITE the Galaxy Note 7 debacle. Why? Because Samsung came out with the Edge line in 2015 and started charging $150 more per device for it, even though the Edge screen costs nowhere near $150 bucks. Samsung is also making and selling fewer cheap phone models, focusing more on their premium and more profitable midrange phones like the Galaxy A series. Samsung is learning from Apple's example and is making more money. Unless you are someone who simply wants Apple to have 90% market share because, well, just because, that is a good thing, right? Because let me tell you ... Samsung's R&D and trial-and-error marketing has given Apple a ton of ideas to rip off for the iPhone 6 and iPhone 8, without which Apple would be still selling 4' devices that had undergone no substantial changes since coming out with TouchID and 64 bit CPUs for the iPhone 5. Even Apple Pay was modeled after a Google product. (And Samsung Pay is better than both Apple Pay and Android Pay because it doesn't require NFC. Sorry, but it is true.). Competition is a good thing that helps companies, including Apple, and everyone but the fanatics is capable of admitting it.

    So many facts clearly wrong.

    - Nexus 6P was not "huge selling" by any metric. If it were successful Huawei wouldn't have walked away from it.
    - Google did not have HTC build the Pixel to "keep them from going out of business," and it obviously did nothing to help HTC, as is apparent from its earnings. You can't even see any evidence of a bump from Pixel. It was a waste of Google's resources, proof that Google's own online banner ads are worthless, and distracted HTC away from doing something that might have been profitable. 
    - "Samsung's revenues and profits were higher in 2016 than they were in 2014 DESPITE the Galaxy Note 7 debacle." FALSE in every way. 

    Full year sales across Samsung Electronics were down, but more importantly IM (Samsung Mobile) sale were down 10% and its profits were  down 25%.

    Sales were DOWN, profits were DOWN by 2x as much. 

    "
    Samsung is also making and selling fewer cheap phone models, focusing more on their premium and more profitable midrange phones like the Galaxy A series. Samsung is learning from Apple's example and is making more money." FALSE over and over.

    Samsung's component, chip and display sales have improved since 2014, but its finished electronics goods are down significantly. And it wasn't just due to a big Q3 write down for Note 7 failures. Samsung Mobile IM was down sharply every quarter of 2016 vs 2014.The company barely improved YoY in 2016 over 2015, which was hit hardest by the iPhone 6 mega launch. It still hasn't recovered. And 2017 is going to be harsh because no Note 7 and iPhone 7 will keep hitting it. Also Galaxy S8 will be late. So no light at the end of the tunnel. Also Samsung is losing its presence in China, and a new skirmish between S. Korea and China is causing nationalism in China to shun Samsung. 


    https://news.samsung.com/global/samsung-electronics-announces-fourth-quarter-and-fy-2016-results

    "Apple Pay was modeled after a Google product" FALSE. It uses technology that wasn't even available to Google when it got into Wallet. Everything about Wallet was a different approach compared to Apple Pay apart from NFC wireless technology that wasn't new. After Apple released its payment system, Google dumped its card efforts & HCE to copy Apple Pay. Samsung Pay acquired magnetic card swipe tech, but I've seen zero evidence that this is benefitting adoption of Samsung Pay or helping the company earn more money in the window where there may be people who can swipe but not tap. And that window is materially closing. 

    Competition is great. But making up facts is not. Virtually everything you post is unsourced and simply not true, and much of it totally false. 
    brucemcStrangeDays
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  • Reply 56 of 81
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,330member
    maestro64 said:
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Avon B7 said, "No manufacturer of low or mid tier phones has even the slightest intention of massive profit. Comparing those profits to those of Apple serves little or no purpose."

    If maximizing profits isn't the goal, then it's time for those companies to get out of the business. 

    The criticism of the points DED made with statements like this are pretty ridiculous. 

    Apple and Samsung are the only two companies capable of reliably profiting from the smartphone industry. Samsung primarily in components and Apple in the finished product and vertically integrated system. 

    Samsung is attempting to move to Apple's vertically integrated model much to the consternation of Google. Samsung's plan is to move off of Android all together and over to Tizen. Samsung's Tizen phone sales in India are pretty nice. And it is quite worrisome to Google. Because if Samsung is successful, the only high end players will be Apple and Samsung. And neither will be running on Android. 

    https://techviral.net/samsung-shift-devices-android-tizen-os/

    So it actually be self-fulfilling if the low end Android device manufacturers aren't interested in large profits. Because it won't happen. There will be Apple and Samsung. The others, including Huawei won't be playing at the high end of anything. Samsung's Gear S3 makes the Android wear watches from Huawei and LG look atrocious. 
    You appear to be confusing 'massive' profit with 'maximising' profit.

    My point is that low to mid tier manufacturers can't get away with 30-40% margins and they know it. That isn't part of the plan.

    Huawei hasn't even stretched its legs in the premium segment but has already released a phone well over the $1,000 mark and has units at all the price points down to the entry level. It took such a jump on quality with the P9 that it has allowed itself to take a breather with last week's P10 announcements which were more lifestyle focussed. Expect a bigger jump later in the year with the successor to the Mate 9 and perhaps an attack on the US market.
    Sorry dude. But Huawei is in deep SHIT.

    They missed profit targets in the phone division and massive layoffs are coming:

    https://www.xda-developers.com/internal-memos-at-huawei-talk-about-missed-profit-targets/

    “Huawei will not pay for those that don’t work hard,” which suggests the company may start cutting back jobs. Huawei employs a total of 170,000 people, with 45% of them working on research and development. A Huawei engineer is quoted by Reuters as saying “everybody is nervous” since they know they are now at risk of being laid off.

    Deep SHIT Huawei.

    As Apple dominates the top end and cheap POS china phones start under pricing even cheap SHIT Huawei phones.

    Huawei will quickly disappear into irrelevance like Xiaomi before it.

    You do know that Huawei is a government funded business entity, as long as Huawei is doing things which the China government feels is in the best interest of the country they will be fine and will be around for a while longer. It has nothing to do with whether they are making money or not. As far as I know Xiaomi does not fall into the Huawei category of business in China. I do not know how the Government see them in the big scheme of things.
    Huawei did receive some government funding but a I believe it has since severed any financial connection with the government.

    I would have to look it up to confirm, though.

    In the other direction, it's worth noting that the US government has, on at least two occasions, stepped in to scupper potential deals between Huawei and US carriers.

    I think a new deal is back on the cards and this time might get the go ahead.
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  • Reply 57 of 81
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,470member
    avon b7 said:
    maestro64 said:
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Avon B7 said, "No manufacturer of low or mid tier phones has even the slightest intention of massive profit. Comparing those profits to those of Apple serves little or no purpose."

    If maximizing profits isn't the goal, then it's time for those companies to get out of the business. 

    The criticism of the points DED made with statements like this are pretty ridiculous. 

    Apple and Samsung are the only two companies capable of reliably profiting from the smartphone industry. Samsung primarily in components and Apple in the finished product and vertically integrated system. 

    Samsung is attempting to move to Apple's vertically integrated model much to the consternation of Google. Samsung's plan is to move off of Android all together and over to Tizen. Samsung's Tizen phone sales in India are pretty nice. And it is quite worrisome to Google. Because if Samsung is successful, the only high end players will be Apple and Samsung. And neither will be running on Android. 

    https://techviral.net/samsung-shift-devices-android-tizen-os/

    So it actually be self-fulfilling if the low end Android device manufacturers aren't interested in large profits. Because it won't happen. There will be Apple and Samsung. The others, including Huawei won't be playing at the high end of anything. Samsung's Gear S3 makes the Android wear watches from Huawei and LG look atrocious. 
    You appear to be confusing 'massive' profit with 'maximising' profit.

    My point is that low to mid tier manufacturers can't get away with 30-40% margins and they know it. That isn't part of the plan.

    Huawei hasn't even stretched its legs in the premium segment but has already released a phone well over the $1,000 mark and has units at all the price points down to the entry level. It took such a jump on quality with the P9 that it has allowed itself to take a breather with last week's P10 announcements which were more lifestyle focussed. Expect a bigger jump later in the year with the successor to the Mate 9 and perhaps an attack on the US market.
    Sorry dude. But Huawei is in deep SHIT.

    They missed profit targets in the phone division and massive layoffs are coming:

    https://www.xda-developers.com/internal-memos-at-huawei-talk-about-missed-profit-targets/

    “Huawei will not pay for those that don’t work hard,” which suggests the company may start cutting back jobs. Huawei employs a total of 170,000 people, with 45% of them working on research and development. A Huawei engineer is quoted by Reuters as saying “everybody is nervous” since they know they are now at risk of being laid off.

    Deep SHIT Huawei.

    As Apple dominates the top end and cheap POS china phones start under pricing even cheap SHIT Huawei phones.

    Huawei will quickly disappear into irrelevance like Xiaomi before it.

    You do know that Huawei is a government funded business entity, as long as Huawei is doing things which the China government feels is in the best interest of the country they will be fine and will be around for a while longer. It has nothing to do with whether they are making money or not. As far as I know Xiaomi does not fall into the Huawei category of business in China. I do not know how the Government see them in the big scheme of things.
    Huawei did receive some government funding but a I believe it has since severed any financial connection with the government.

    I would have to look it up to confirm, though.

    In the other direction, it's worth noting that the US government has, on at least two occasions, stepped in to scupper potential deals between Huawei and US carriers.

    I think a new deal is back on the cards and this time might get the go ahead.
    Scuppered deals going back to 2012 because the U.S. Government was correctly concerned about security of networks that hosted Huawei and ZTE. Not sure what has changed since then.
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  • Reply 58 of 81
    brucemcbrucemc Posts: 1,541member
    avon b7 said:
    maestro64 said:
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Avon B7 said, "No manufacturer of low or mid tier phones has even the slightest intention of massive profit. Comparing those profits to those of Apple serves little or no purpose."

    If maximizing profits isn't the goal, then it's time for those companies to get out of the business. 

    The criticism of the points DED made with statements like this are pretty ridiculous. 

    Apple and Samsung are the only two companies capable of reliably profiting from the smartphone industry. Samsung primarily in components and Apple in the finished product and vertically integrated system. 

    Samsung is attempting to move to Apple's vertically integrated model much to the consternation of Google. Samsung's plan is to move off of Android all together and over to Tizen. Samsung's Tizen phone sales in India are pretty nice. And it is quite worrisome to Google. Because if Samsung is successful, the only high end players will be Apple and Samsung. And neither will be running on Android. 

    https://techviral.net/samsung-shift-devices-android-tizen-os/

    So it actually be self-fulfilling if the low end Android device manufacturers aren't interested in large profits. Because it won't happen. There will be Apple and Samsung. The others, including Huawei won't be playing at the high end of anything. Samsung's Gear S3 makes the Android wear watches from Huawei and LG look atrocious. 
    You appear to be confusing 'massive' profit with 'maximising' profit.

    My point is that low to mid tier manufacturers can't get away with 30-40% margins and they know it. That isn't part of the plan.

    Huawei hasn't even stretched its legs in the premium segment but has already released a phone well over the $1,000 mark and has units at all the price points down to the entry level. It took such a jump on quality with the P9 that it has allowed itself to take a breather with last week's P10 announcements which were more lifestyle focussed. Expect a bigger jump later in the year with the successor to the Mate 9 and perhaps an attack on the US market.
    Sorry dude. But Huawei is in deep SHIT.

    They missed profit targets in the phone division and massive layoffs are coming:

    https://www.xda-developers.com/internal-memos-at-huawei-talk-about-missed-profit-targets/

    “Huawei will not pay for those that don’t work hard,” which suggests the company may start cutting back jobs. Huawei employs a total of 170,000 people, with 45% of them working on research and development. A Huawei engineer is quoted by Reuters as saying “everybody is nervous” since they know they are now at risk of being laid off.

    Deep SHIT Huawei.

    As Apple dominates the top end and cheap POS china phones start under pricing even cheap SHIT Huawei phones.

    Huawei will quickly disappear into irrelevance like Xiaomi before it.

    You do know that Huawei is a government funded business entity, as long as Huawei is doing things which the China government feels is in the best interest of the country they will be fine and will be around for a while longer. It has nothing to do with whether they are making money or not. As far as I know Xiaomi does not fall into the Huawei category of business in China. I do not know how the Government see them in the big scheme of things.

    jbdragon said:
    lwio said:
    and Apple makes an increasingly large profit from services including the App Store were Android makers have a very hard time making anything at all.
    This is the problem with Android, and Windows has gone through the same type of thing. Android phones have turned into a commodity. There is very little money to be made in selling the hardware. Everyone is fighting each other to sell the phones and so prices drop down to nothing. So then like windows, you throw on 3rd party crapware because you get a little money from that which is better then breaking even or losing money. People don't like that crap on their phones. The only real winner with Android is Google because they're making money from their services and from Ad's. Google doesn't care if you make money selling Android phones or not, Google still wins. If you disappear, there's always someone else to take your place. Google still wins. Google's services have to be up front and center. Other company's are trying to offer their own things. Samesung had done their MILK Music service thing which has failed. They're trying to make money with Samesung Pay, which in the end will fail over Android Pay. Google is trying to sell their Pixel phones at iPhone prices. I don't think they're selling all that many of them. Android all this time has been marketed as the CHEAP phones. Why would you then turn around, stop selling cheap NEXUS phones and sell iPhone priced Pixel phones? It's just not going to work well. China is the exception to the rule so much in that Google doesn't have a presence in China. So people there are going to 3rd party App stores. Pirating like crazy and Viruses are running rampant there. You can fork Android, but then you can't use Google's services and there's a lot of other Negatives to go along with it. Amazon tried with their Fire Phone and it bombed. The EU is trying to do something about it, but I don't see how. There's no money in selling low end to mid range phones. Who would you rather be, Android (Everyone) selling 1 BILLION Android phones and breaking even or Apple selling 1 iPhone and making a $50 profit? How about 10 billion for Android, still breaking even, or 10 iPhones making a $500 profit. So who's winning? Well the Investors and Android fanboys will say Android, they have a huge Market share over Apple, Look 10 billion Android phones to 10 iphones. Not even close. While everyone else with a brain will say Apple WON. They actually made a $500 profit and only had to sell 10 iPhones to do it. You've heard the saying, "Work Smarter, not harder!" What is Market Share in the phone industry getting you?
    Forgive me for taking a simplistic approach but there is an angle you haven't touched on. Android handsets sell 10 billion. Let's run with that notion but forget Google, Apple, Samsung etc. just for a second. Let's forget the profits or lack of them. That means 10 billion people got a phone and it serves their use, for better or worse, but it satisfies their use. That angle is key.

    Let's put the manufacturers back in and we see Apple were ignored by 10 billion shoppers. 

    Should Apple stay premium and ignore those 10 billion users and hope there are enough left to keep buying high margin, premium phones well into the future, or move into a lower tier in the hope of selling much more units?

    Will the main future earnings drivers be unit sales or services?

    If services are going to make up an ever increasing part of revenues, doesn't it make sense to have the largest possible pool to feed off? Surely that pool implies getting a lot of the 10 billion onto your platform or should Apple open up its platform to Android users?

    There are lots of possible scenarios but most of the ones that involve services require the highest possible share to feed off. The same logic applies to 'home kit' style devices.

    I'm in the camp that says smartphones have hit the comfort zone and shoppers can get far more than they ever could out of a mid tier phone and that premium prices will be a harder sell in a saturated market with a decent spread of top class phones. Past the iPhone 8/7s I see Apple having a harder time shifting units in the premium segment.


    The problem with some "simplistic" approaches is that they miss the nuances of the "real world":
    - Android has been outselling Apple in units sold for the last 7 years.  In any year of the last 4 there has been no stop commentary that Apple will soon be commoditized.  Yet Apple has managed to grow both their iPhone h/w sales and services sales.  Services have been growing ~18% YoY over last few years.

    - You assume that every smartphone buyer is the same w.r.t. services potential.  History and the real world have shown that to be false.  Those with more disposable income tend to purchase more expensive devices, and also are more willing to spend on s/w, content, and services.  Those who seek out lower cost devices often don't want to pay for the extras.  Hence why Apple continues to lead (after 9 years) still with revenue from App Store vs. the much larger Android installed base.

    - You assume that in a market which becomes saturated all that matters is price.  That is true if no differentiation, but Apple continues to differentiate in many ways (h/w itself, longevity & reliability, s/w, content & ecosystem, payments, security, and increasingly differentiated accessories).  In a case study of how a company can grow revenue in a commodity / saturated market, I present you with Apple and the Mac.

    - You ignore the present and historical data regarding Apple's customer satisfaction ratings and retention.  Simply put, most iPhone users will upgrade to a new iPhone (of some variety) - not move to a different vendor.  Sure, there are some, just as Apple gets Android switchers (many estimate this 2nd number is much higher than first).  While the upgrade cycle lengthens, it doesn't alter what most of that installed base will upgrade to - and it is not likely to be Huawei, Samsung, or Oppy.

    - You believe that people will only ever purchase "what they need".  That there is no brand value, or desire for something better, or customer satisfaction, or resale value, or ease-of-use value,....  Perhaps that is how you and your friends think.  You buy all of your clothes at the lowest price location, most of them looking the same, as there is no need for anything else.  I can tell you though that others don't think this way.


    tmayStrangeDays
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  • Reply 59 of 81
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,330member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    maestro64 said:
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Avon B7 said, "No manufacturer of low or mid tier phones has even the slightest intention of massive profit. Comparing those profits to those of Apple serves little or no purpose."

    If maximizing profits isn't the goal, then it's time for those companies to get out of the business. 

    The criticism of the points DED made with statements like this are pretty ridiculous. 

    Apple and Samsung are the only two companies capable of reliably profiting from the smartphone industry. Samsung primarily in components and Apple in the finished product and vertically integrated system. 

    Samsung is attempting to move to Apple's vertically integrated model much to the consternation of Google. Samsung's plan is to move off of Android all together and over to Tizen. Samsung's Tizen phone sales in India are pretty nice. And it is quite worrisome to Google. Because if Samsung is successful, the only high end players will be Apple and Samsung. And neither will be running on Android. 

    https://techviral.net/samsung-shift-devices-android-tizen-os/

    So it actually be self-fulfilling if the low end Android device manufacturers aren't interested in large profits. Because it won't happen. There will be Apple and Samsung. The others, including Huawei won't be playing at the high end of anything. Samsung's Gear S3 makes the Android wear watches from Huawei and LG look atrocious. 
    You appear to be confusing 'massive' profit with 'maximising' profit.

    My point is that low to mid tier manufacturers can't get away with 30-40% margins and they know it. That isn't part of the plan.

    Huawei hasn't even stretched its legs in the premium segment but has already released a phone well over the $1,000 mark and has units at all the price points down to the entry level. It took such a jump on quality with the P9 that it has allowed itself to take a breather with last week's P10 announcements which were more lifestyle focussed. Expect a bigger jump later in the year with the successor to the Mate 9 and perhaps an attack on the US market.
    Sorry dude. But Huawei is in deep SHIT.

    They missed profit targets in the phone division and massive layoffs are coming:

    https://www.xda-developers.com/internal-memos-at-huawei-talk-about-missed-profit-targets/

    “Huawei will not pay for those that don’t work hard,” which suggests the company may start cutting back jobs. Huawei employs a total of 170,000 people, with 45% of them working on research and development. A Huawei engineer is quoted by Reuters as saying “everybody is nervous” since they know they are now at risk of being laid off.

    Deep SHIT Huawei.

    As Apple dominates the top end and cheap POS china phones start under pricing even cheap SHIT Huawei phones.

    Huawei will quickly disappear into irrelevance like Xiaomi before it.

    You do know that Huawei is a government funded business entity, as long as Huawei is doing things which the China government feels is in the best interest of the country they will be fine and will be around for a while longer. It has nothing to do with whether they are making money or not. As far as I know Xiaomi does not fall into the Huawei category of business in China. I do not know how the Government see them in the big scheme of things.
    Huawei did receive some government funding but a I believe it has since severed any financial connection with the government.

    I would have to look it up to confirm, though.

    In the other direction, it's worth noting that the US government has, on at least two occasions, stepped in to scupper potential deals between Huawei and US carriers.

    I think a new deal is back on the cards and this time might get the go ahead.
    Scuppered deals going back to 2012 because the U.S. Government was correctly concerned about security of networks that hosted Huawei and ZTE. Not sure what has changed since then.
    Yes. It was definitely security related. Some congressional committee or what not but this time around I read that a deal is very nearly sealed with a large carrier. Maybe Vodafone. I had so much news from MWC to get through that I might be mixing things up, though.
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  • Reply 60 of 81
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 8,330member
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    maestro64 said:
    sog35 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Avon B7 said, "No manufacturer of low or mid tier phones has even the slightest intention of massive profit. Comparing those profits to those of Apple serves little or no purpose."

    If maximizing profits isn't the goal, then it's time for those companies to get out of the business. 

    The criticism of the points DED made with statements like this are pretty ridiculous. 

    Apple and Samsung are the only two companies capable of reliably profiting from the smartphone industry. Samsung primarily in components and Apple in the finished product and vertically integrated system. 

    Samsung is attempting to move to Apple's vertically integrated model much to the consternation of Google. Samsung's plan is to move off of Android all together and over to Tizen. Samsung's Tizen phone sales in India are pretty nice. And it is quite worrisome to Google. Because if Samsung is successful, the only high end players will be Apple and Samsung. And neither will be running on Android. 

    https://techviral.net/samsung-shift-devices-android-tizen-os/

    So it actually be self-fulfilling if the low end Android device manufacturers aren't interested in large profits. Because it won't happen. There will be Apple and Samsung. The others, including Huawei won't be playing at the high end of anything. Samsung's Gear S3 makes the Android wear watches from Huawei and LG look atrocious. 
    You appear to be confusing 'massive' profit with 'maximising' profit.

    My point is that low to mid tier manufacturers can't get away with 30-40% margins and they know it. That isn't part of the plan.

    Huawei hasn't even stretched its legs in the premium segment but has already released a phone well over the $1,000 mark and has units at all the price points down to the entry level. It took such a jump on quality with the P9 that it has allowed itself to take a breather with last week's P10 announcements which were more lifestyle focussed. Expect a bigger jump later in the year with the successor to the Mate 9 and perhaps an attack on the US market.
    Sorry dude. But Huawei is in deep SHIT.

    They missed profit targets in the phone division and massive layoffs are coming:

    https://www.xda-developers.com/internal-memos-at-huawei-talk-about-missed-profit-targets/

    “Huawei will not pay for those that don’t work hard,” which suggests the company may start cutting back jobs. Huawei employs a total of 170,000 people, with 45% of them working on research and development. A Huawei engineer is quoted by Reuters as saying “everybody is nervous” since they know they are now at risk of being laid off.

    Deep SHIT Huawei.

    As Apple dominates the top end and cheap POS china phones start under pricing even cheap SHIT Huawei phones.

    Huawei will quickly disappear into irrelevance like Xiaomi before it.

    You do know that Huawei is a government funded business entity, as long as Huawei is doing things which the China government feels is in the best interest of the country they will be fine and will be around for a while longer. It has nothing to do with whether they are making money or not. As far as I know Xiaomi does not fall into the Huawei category of business in China. I do not know how the Government see them in the big scheme of things.

    jbdragon said:
    lwio said:
    and Apple makes an increasingly large profit from services including the App Store were Android makers have a very hard time making anything at all.
    This is the problem with Android, and Windows has gone through the same type of thing. Android phones have turned into a commodity. There is very little money to be made in selling the hardware. Everyone is fighting each other to sell the phones and so prices drop down to nothing. So then like windows, you throw on 3rd party crapware because you get a little money from that which is better then breaking even or losing money. People don't like that crap on their phones. The only real winner with Android is Google because they're making money from their services and from Ad's. Google doesn't care if you make money selling Android phones or not, Google still wins. If you disappear, there's always someone else to take your place. Google still wins. Google's services have to be up front and center. Other company's are trying to offer their own things. Samesung had done their MILK Music service thing which has failed. They're trying to make money with Samesung Pay, which in the end will fail over Android Pay. Google is trying to sell their Pixel phones at iPhone prices. I don't think they're selling all that many of them. Android all this time has been marketed as the CHEAP phones. Why would you then turn around, stop selling cheap NEXUS phones and sell iPhone priced Pixel phones? It's just not going to work well. China is the exception to the rule so much in that Google doesn't have a presence in China. So people there are going to 3rd party App stores. Pirating like crazy and Viruses are running rampant there. You can fork Android, but then you can't use Google's services and there's a lot of other Negatives to go along with it. Amazon tried with their Fire Phone and it bombed. The EU is trying to do something about it, but I don't see how. There's no money in selling low end to mid range phones. Who would you rather be, Android (Everyone) selling 1 BILLION Android phones and breaking even or Apple selling 1 iPhone and making a $50 profit? How about 10 billion for Android, still breaking even, or 10 iPhones making a $500 profit. So who's winning? Well the Investors and Android fanboys will say Android, they have a huge Market share over Apple, Look 10 billion Android phones to 10 iphones. Not even close. While everyone else with a brain will say Apple WON. They actually made a $500 profit and only had to sell 10 iPhones to do it. You've heard the saying, "Work Smarter, not harder!" What is Market Share in the phone industry getting you?
    Forgive me for taking a simplistic approach but there is an angle you haven't touched on. Android handsets sell 10 billion. Let's run with that notion but forget Google, Apple, Samsung etc. just for a second. Let's forget the profits or lack of them. That means 10 billion people got a phone and it serves their use, for better or worse, but it satisfies their use. That angle is key.

    Let's put the manufacturers back in and we see Apple were ignored by 10 billion shoppers. 

    Should Apple stay premium and ignore those 10 billion users and hope there are enough left to keep buying high margin, premium phones well into the future, or move into a lower tier in the hope of selling much more units?

    Will the main future earnings drivers be unit sales or services?

    If services are going to make up an ever increasing part of revenues, doesn't it make sense to have the largest possible pool to feed off? Surely that pool implies getting a lot of the 10 billion onto your platform or should Apple open up its platform to Android users?

    There are lots of possible scenarios but most of the ones that involve services require the highest possible share to feed off. The same logic applies to 'home kit' style devices.

    I'm in the camp that says smartphones have hit the comfort zone and shoppers can get far more than they ever could out of a mid tier phone and that premium prices will be a harder sell in a saturated market with a decent spread of top class phones. Past the iPhone 8/7s I see Apple having a harder time shifting units in the premium segment.


    Not all users are equal.

    Android may have more users but iOS still destroys in in App sales.

    A customer who buys a $99 cheap phone brings very little profit to anyone. You seriously think someone who buys  a cheap $99 phone will pay for services? LOL
    And a $250 phone? Some services are paid, others aren't but are monetised nonetheless.
    edited March 2017
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