I knew this was going to happen. Apple has made it known they like the east coast expo being in NYC and Jobs has said he would not want the show to move to Boston.
Say all you want, fran can talk up boston all he wants, but when it comes down to it, there ain't no place like NYC... may be expensive, may have its problems, but its an amazing one of a kind environment... and Apple knows that... hype and publicity go a long ways here and it is the media capital of the world.
IDG are a bunch of assholes for letting this happen. They knew Apple was upset with a possible move to Boston yet they did it anyways...
Apple doesn't need Macworld...Macworld needs Apple. so who's stupid here? IDG <hr></blockquote>
Surely you are joking applenut.
This isn't a debate about New York vs. Boston.
The Javitz Center added tons of extra costs to IDG two weeks before the show that they claimed were 'non negotiable'. IDG was held hostage by the people in NY and were upset about it. Why wouldn't they go for the better deal?
This deal was also about making the show more cost effective. Numerous developers had announced they would not be attending the show in NY because it would cost too much to exhibit. In Boston, this problem wouldn't happen as costs would be down and many companies would have much less of a distance to travel, especially the large number of companies based in New England.
By doing this, Apple alienates its users and its developers. Since Apple wants the show in a bigger city, developers lose out- that's the bottom line.
Applenut, I'm sorry it's sour grapes for you, but now you feel how those of us in the Boston area felt when the show left for New York.
As IDG announced this morning, the show was always supposed to move back to Boston. It was inevitable, and a good move for everyone involved.
It's not even like IDG announced that the move would be next year. Instead, they are going to have the show one last time in New York and letting people know almost 20 months in advance of the change.
But what does Apple do? They have a fit. IDG claims that Apple is a sponsor of the show until 2006. If that's true, Apple is wasting a lot of money here.
You also have to remember that supposedly Apple and IDG do not have strained relations. If that was the case, they would be pulling out of Macworld San Francisco as well, but they didn't.
In the end, I see Apple going to Macworld in New York and Macworld in Boston.
For the people in New York that don't like it, I'm sorry. Come visit Boston for a change. I made the drive every single year it was in NYC and unless Apple makes good on their promise to ruin the last NY show, I will be going out there again next year. It costs me much more to go out and stay in New York then it will ever cost you to come to stay in Boston.
In the end, Apple looks like the big loser; both in the eyes of its consumers and its developers.
Saw a billboard truck parked on Brookline Ave today right up past the Art Institute of Boston (maybe it isn't brookline, I don't remember, I"m an SMFA guy). Anyhow, it said, "Hey Boston, Guess who's coming back? Macworld Boston July 2004"
This advertising part of the deal? It's pretty neat to see Macworld ads in your hometown again IDG should call Apple's bluff...
[quote] Then there is the media attention. Metro Boston is one of the largest tech business centers, only second to Silicon Valley in the US. If Apple had Macworld in Boston, you wouldn't see any less media attention and in fact, you'd see more companies attending. Costs will be down, attendance will most likely be the same or perhaps a little higher. <hr></blockquote>
Fran, that is not actually the kind of media attention Apple wants. They want national, big magazine, big media attention--mainstream attention.
More companies attending does nothing for Apple in this regard.
When I said they did the numbers, they just know that NYC will work for them, media-wise, and they believe that Boston will not as well. I am inclined to agree...and when they crunch the numbers with that consideration, suddenly the massive expense to make the faithful...er...more faithful...doesn't seem such a hot investment.
[quote] The Javitz Center added tons of extra costs to IDG two weeks before the show that they claimed were 'non negotiable'. IDG was held hostage by the people in NY and were upset about it. Why wouldn't they go for the better deal? <hr></blockquote>
Well, they did, didn't they? Not such a great deal now.
[quote] This deal was also about making the show more cost effective. <hr></blockquote>
Yes, and for Apple it is about getting value for their investment. Now it will be very cost effective.
[quote] Since Apple wants the show in a bigger city, developers lose out- that's the bottom line. <hr></blockquote>
Frankly, I think they will live. I don't think developers get that excited by Macworld, professionally.
[quote] I'm sorry it's sour grapes for you, but now you feel how those of us in the Boston area felt when the show left for New York. <hr></blockquote>
I don't think it is quite the same--I mean, we all lose out, with Apple not going. It's not like they are going to go to NYC on their own.
I'm just explaining why it makes sense for Apple. It's not an emotional one.
[quote] the show was always supposed to move back to Boston. It was inevitable, and a good move for everyone involved. <hr></blockquote>
Well, this hardly needs saying, but--NOT APPARENTLY FOR APPLE.
[quote] But what does Apple do? They have a fit. <hr></blockquote>
Look, they definitely sound pissed, but all they did is condemn the move and say they're not going. That's all. I'm sure that Apple previously told IDG, "We really like NYC." IDG must have weighed that and decided that saving money in Boston was more important. I doubt they thought Apple would pull out.
[quote] For the people in New York that don't like it, I'm sorry. Come visit Boston for a change. <hr></blockquote>
Look, Boston is fine. It's a very nice city, it's cheaper, blah blah blah. I would actually rather go there, because then I get a vacation.
BUT, Boston is nowhere near as effective for media purposes. I work in the entertainment industry, and let me assure you that there is no place like NYC for print publications--it makes a huge difference. Apple knows this.
[quote] In the end, Apple looks like the big loser; <hr></blockquote>
I actually think it's the most sensible and cost-effective thing they've done in a long time, and I think it speaks well of a committment to shifting emphasis onto Switchers and the other 90%.
Prediction: If Apple goes to an Expo next summer/fall, it will be PCEXPO in NYC, and thereby establish a beachhead of Macness there. If they do that they could clean up in the press.
I knew this was going to happen. Apple has made it known they like the east coast expo being in NYC and Jobs has said he would not want the show to move to Boston.
Say all you want, fran can talk up boston all he wants, but when it comes down to it, there ain't no place like NYC... may be expensive, may have its problems, but its an amazing one of a kind environment... and Apple knows that... hype and publicity go a long ways here and it is the media capital of the world.
IDG are a bunch of assholes for letting this happen. They knew Apple was upset with a possible move to Boston yet they did it anyways...
Apple doesn't need Macworld...Macworld needs Apple. so who's stupid here? IDG</strong><hr></blockquote>
Do you guys forget that the last Macworld in Boston got the MOST media attention of any Macworld ever?
It's not the city that makes the news, it's Apple themselves. If Apple has a big announcement, it will be in the papers, on television, etc., just like it always is.
Macworld is Macworld and making the move to a newer and larger facility is only good for the show.
Not only that, but they are OPENING Boston's new convention center! That's huge news by itself and it will draw tons of people who just want to see the new convention center.
The 'media argument' is lame. This isn't the 1950s- the news media is out there. You'd think Boston doesn't even have a media the way that people are talking, when it's far from the truth.
In fact, I'd argue that Macworld in Boston would is a much larger story than Macworld in New York. When Macworld is in town, everybody would know about it, whereas in New York, it's just another of many events.
It might not say a lot about Boston, but you can bet that it will be the city's top priority when the show is in town.
With the new agreement, Macworld will get more advertising than ever, even better media coverage than before (especially in New England), and costs will be significantly decreased.
I also don't buy the argument that Apple approached IDG about staying in New York. From what the media is saying, it came out of the blue. Does anyone seriously think that IDG would have ignored Apple's request?
I can't believe New Yorkers are happy about this. Is your mentality, "Either we have the show or nobody has the show?"
EmAn, I know this is hitting below the belt, but you never even went to Macworld when it was in New York. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Boston isn't a bad place for Macworld. I'm sorry that the New Yorkers and Apple don't see it that way.
Purely a political move. I'm sure that a very large percentage of Apple's most loyal customers are locted in NYC, with all the ad agencies, publishing and design houses ... advertising. On top of all that, with what NY has gone through in the last little while. NY is now rebuilding, bad time for IDG to move.
[quote] It's not the city that makes the news, it's Apple themselves. <hr></blockquote>
That part I agree with in principle, but the rest of your arguement seems to miss what I'm talking about.
[quote] Macworld is Macworld and making the move to a newer and larger facility is only good for the show. <hr></blockquote>
Fran, a good show has no correlation to these media issues. I'm sure the facilities in Boston kick total ass.
[quote] Not only that, but they are OPENING Boston's new convention center! That's huge news by itself <hr></blockquote>
This is the kind of news that is huge in an individual city, or maybe even region, but has nothing to do with capturing national media buzz.
[quote] The 'media argument' is lame. This isn't the 1950s- the news media is out there. You'd think Boston doesn't even have a media the way that people are talking, when it's far from the truth. <hr></blockquote>
Actually, in the 50's things might have worked out better for Boston.
All the media that COUNTS--all the national print media, the mainstream print media--comes out of New York. All of it. All. The only thing Boston has is THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY, and I don't think a MWBoston feature is their bag.
Fran, what are you talking about Boston media? No one is saying that it doesn't exist--there is plenty of it. I'm saying that it is not what Apple wants...and when they looked at the loss of NYC-based media, and factored in the costs, and want to move away from expectations for keynotes, blah blah blah they decided.
[quote] When Macworld is in town, everybody would know about it, whereas in New York, it's just another of many events. <hr></blockquote>
Exactly. And by "everyone" you mean, "the people of Boston"--and that's just not going to cut it.
[quote] It might not say a lot about Boston, but you can bet that it will be the city's top priority <hr></blockquote>
Oh, stop it! Boston is a big American city, and a very important one...let's not starting indulging in false modesty. NO ONE (at least not me) IS DISPARAGING BOSTON. Gah!
[quote] even better media coverage than before (especially in New England), <hr></blockquote>
Exactly.
[quote] I also don't buy the argument that Apple approached IDG about staying in New York. Does anyone seriously think that IDG would have ignored Apple's request? <hr></blockquote>
I can believe it...we don't know what went down. I would bet Apple said they didn't want to move, and IDG nodded but knew it had to for fiscal reasons, never thinking Apple would actually pull out.
OR Apple just wants out of some Expos for reasons we have all explored in this thread, and they sprung it on IDG to get themselves suddenly free. I don't know.
[quote] I can't believe New Yorkers are happy about this. Is your mentality, "Either we have the show or nobody has the show?" <hr></blockquote>
Are you *reading* what I'm writing? Sigh.
I would like Apple to be at every MacWorld. i would like MW to be in Boston, as then I get a vacation. However, I think this is a good decision FOR APPLE. This does not make it a good decision for me.
I have to agree with Apple and applenut. Who cares what kind of expenses the Javitz Center shoved onto IDG? It makes much more sense for the show to be in NYC. 1) It's an international hub. 2) It's a bigger city. 3) It's where Macworld Expo has been for the last 4 years.
EmAn, I know this is hitting below the belt, but you never even went to Macworld when it was in New York. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, that's part of why I feel the way I do about the whole MW Boston situation, but that's not all. I feel what everyone else said about "NY vs. Boston" or whatever is true. And yes, I've been to Boston before.
[quote]This isn't a debate about New York vs. Boston.<hr></blockquote>
of course it is
[quote]The Javitz Center added tons of extra costs to IDG two weeks before the show that they claimed were 'non negotiable'. IDG was held hostage by the people in NY and were upset about it. Why wouldn't they go for the better deal?<hr></blockquote>
1.) have a link?
2.) if so, so what... u know, boston may have provided a better deal financially... but its impossible to expect the javits center to match it... free space? come on... IDG were cheap bastards and Boston played right in with them. Apple didn't
[quote]This deal was also about making the show more cost effective. Numerous developers had announced they would not be attending the show in NY because it would cost too much to exhibit. In Boston, this problem wouldn't happen as costs would be down and many companies would have much less of a distance to travel, especially the large number of companies based in New England.<hr></blockquote>
yet the last few Macworld NYs have been the largest most attended ones... face it, the economy sucks... NYC is expensive but developers would have pulled out of the show anyways... and the truth is, more and more will in the future... tech trade shows are pretty dumb to be honest... what purpose do they serve now that we have the internet, compusas everywhere, apple stores everywhere, seminars, etc?
[quote]By doing this, Apple alienates its users and its developers. Since Apple wants the show in a bigger city, developers lose out- that's the bottom line. <hr></blockquote>
by doing this, IDG alienates apple and its customers.... Apple is just a company that attends... IDG never made them a power in the decision and apparantly did not even make Apple a major consideration in the plans to move.... again, IDG is getting a good kick in the nuts for being dumbasses.
[quote]Applenut, I'm sorry it's sour grapes for you, but now you feel how those of us in the Boston area felt when the show left for New York. <hr></blockquote>
hey hey... I love boston, going there this saturday, actually was a bit excited about a MW Boston cause its more of a vacation for me then it is in NYC... but the fact is, NYC is a better venue. And Apple wants it in NYC.... Apple is what makes macworld.... not where IDG finds cheapest.
[quote]But what does Apple do? They have a fit. IDG claims that Apple is a sponsor of the show until 2006. If that's true, Apple is wasting a lot of money here.<hr></blockquote>
Fit? I'm sure they voiced there opinion and said they didn't want it to move from NYC... IDG moved it... there's no fit... If Apple doesn't like the move they have every right to not go
If you want to see NY vs. Boston, watch the Yankees play the Red Sox.
IDG chose Boston over New York for Macworld since it made the most sense. Boston gave IDG an awesome deal to move the expo including a new convention center that will more than rival the Javitz with no rent, cheaper labor prices, plenty of fixed rate, cheap hotel rooms, and plenty of other bonuses including advertising everywhere for free.
I'm sorry that New York didn't do more to get Macworld to stay, but that is NYC's fault.
The media argument doesn't fly guys, I'm sorry. Disagree with me all that you want.
The only speculation I've heard of why Apple decided to put up this front against IDG is to avoid bad press in NY. I guess that's fair since Apple will be blasted for moving the show to Boston even though it was IDG that did it. After all, it is 'Macworld'.
So the 'theory' is that Apple will put up this 'fight' now and backtrack later when no one remembers.
We're still 20 months from the first Boston show, though. So that's plenty of time for agreements to be made.
You know what, I think it is just because Apple finished building that flagship SOHO store and they wanted to use that in conjunction with their MWNY presence.
[quote] The media argument doesn't fly guys, I'm sorry. <hr></blockquote>
Fran, stop! You're killing me with the force of your rhetoric.
"Doesn't fly?" I spent a lot of time addressing every point you've made, and THAT is the response I get?
[quote] So the 'theory' is that Apple will put up this 'fight' now and backtrack later when no one remembers. <hr></blockquote>
I would buy that, but then why have they been so cold and bitchy? By being so aggressive I think they've closed off the option of changing their mind and going to Boston--if they had made a quieter statement, maybe, but I doubt they are changing their stance.
i do agree that 20 months is a long time, and it is possible, but I tend to doubt it.
First of all, the Metro Boston area has the second largest HOME market of Mac users in the country. That's why there are so many Apple stores around here in a relatively small area, and why more are coming.
Second of all, Boston/Cambridge is college central. Look at all of the Universities and Collegegs around the Boston area and tell me that Macworld wouldn't target a ton of these schools?
Then there is the publishing market. Seybold was held in Boston every year in the Winter until last year when the convention center was too small for them. They are already booked to come back to Boston upon completion of the new convention center. If that market is so small, then why are they going back to Boston and not staying in New York?
Again- no one's going to challenge that New York isn't a media hub. But you make it sound like having the show in Boston will give Apple no press at all, in newspapers, magazines, or otherwise. I'm arguing that it is false.
Macworld is a huge technology show and it will be covered by the media. You will get stories in the papers like every year, as long as Apple delivers new products. This is nothing new and dates back years.
I haven't seen anyone argue the point that the Macworld that got the most press EVER was in Boston.
It's not the show that makes the news, it's the news that makes the show.
I'm sorry if you guys don't like my opinion here, but if the biggest argument against Apple attending the show is media attention, they are being foolish, as they will get all the attention they normally get.
I didn't see applenut's post last night before I made my post. That information about the Javitz Center raising costs was posted in the NY Times (I believe) during Macworld with a response of how upset IDG was about it. Then it was brought up a few times in discussions of why Macworld would be moved to Boston. I will try and find a link.
The media here is still reporting that Apple's decision came out of the blue and they have interviewed IDG officials who have said that this is all news to them and that they had discussions with Apple and they never had a problem with it.
With that in mind, I really think that this is a front by Apple to not get bad press in NYC.
After all, IDG runs Macworld in San Francisco and if Apple was really upset with IDG, they would have pulled out of that show as well. Not only that, but they have not pulled out of the New York show.
Apple is filing their 'protest' now, but I believe they will go to the Boston show. IDG will give them some kind of 'deal', and they will go. But like I said above, there's 20 months until the show; plenty of time for just about anything to happen.
you know, having appleinsider's registry on the fritz is driving me nuts... i deleted all my cookies at home, and now can only post from work. ACK!
anyway, just to chime in:
i, too, am beginning to believe that apple is doing this simply to act as though "leaving NYC wasn't OUR idea... we're not the bad guys. they are." yet still move to boston, possibly with a little strong-arming tactics for free floorspace, etc. thrown in for good measure.
i will agree with another poster in this thread, however:
toronto would make an excellent expo center. i am american, but have lived here the past four years. my wife and i will be moving back next year sometime when her schooling is complete, but toronto has a lot to offer. and if you are earning american dollars (unlike me now), everything here is so stupid-CHEAP! also, the waether up here is really beautiful int he summer (though this past july was god-awful, and i grew up in florida, and went to college in new orleans, so i know heat better than ANYbody).
so there's my two cents. i will be re-installing my work computer soon, too, so i will only be able to watch from the sidelines on these forums until the mods get 'em fixed. take care, everybody, and see you on the other side.
Comments
Great exchange rate for all the visiting Americans, and brings welcome $ to our city.
Heck, we don't even have a frickin' Apple Store anywhere in Canada.
And for those who think we still live in igloos, the summers in Toronto are swealtering hot!
So are the babes.
I knew this was going to happen. Apple has made it known they like the east coast expo being in NYC and Jobs has said he would not want the show to move to Boston.
Say all you want, fran can talk up boston all he wants, but when it comes down to it, there ain't no place like NYC... may be expensive, may have its problems, but its an amazing one of a kind environment... and Apple knows that... hype and publicity go a long ways here and it is the media capital of the world.
IDG are a bunch of assholes for letting this happen. They knew Apple was upset with a possible move to Boston yet they did it anyways...
Apple doesn't need Macworld...Macworld needs Apple. so who's stupid here? IDG <hr></blockquote>
Surely you are joking applenut.
This isn't a debate about New York vs. Boston.
The Javitz Center added tons of extra costs to IDG two weeks before the show that they claimed were 'non negotiable'. IDG was held hostage by the people in NY and were upset about it. Why wouldn't they go for the better deal?
This deal was also about making the show more cost effective. Numerous developers had announced they would not be attending the show in NY because it would cost too much to exhibit. In Boston, this problem wouldn't happen as costs would be down and many companies would have much less of a distance to travel, especially the large number of companies based in New England.
By doing this, Apple alienates its users and its developers. Since Apple wants the show in a bigger city, developers lose out- that's the bottom line.
Applenut, I'm sorry it's sour grapes for you, but now you feel how those of us in the Boston area felt when the show left for New York.
As IDG announced this morning, the show was always supposed to move back to Boston. It was inevitable, and a good move for everyone involved.
It's not even like IDG announced that the move would be next year. Instead, they are going to have the show one last time in New York and letting people know almost 20 months in advance of the change.
But what does Apple do? They have a fit. IDG claims that Apple is a sponsor of the show until 2006. If that's true, Apple is wasting a lot of money here.
You also have to remember that supposedly Apple and IDG do not have strained relations. If that was the case, they would be pulling out of Macworld San Francisco as well, but they didn't.
In the end, I see Apple going to Macworld in New York and Macworld in Boston.
For the people in New York that don't like it, I'm sorry. Come visit Boston for a change. I made the drive every single year it was in NYC and unless Apple makes good on their promise to ruin the last NY show, I will be going out there again next year. It costs me much more to go out and stay in New York then it will ever cost you to come to stay in Boston.
In the end, Apple looks like the big loser; both in the eyes of its consumers and its developers.
This advertising part of the deal? It's pretty neat to see Macworld ads in your hometown again
Fran, that is not actually the kind of media attention Apple wants. They want national, big magazine, big media attention--mainstream attention.
More companies attending does nothing for Apple in this regard.
When I said they did the numbers, they just know that NYC will work for them, media-wise, and they believe that Boston will not as well. I am inclined to agree...and when they crunch the numbers with that consideration, suddenly the massive expense to make the faithful...er...more faithful...doesn't seem such a hot investment.
[quote] The Javitz Center added tons of extra costs to IDG two weeks before the show that they claimed were 'non negotiable'. IDG was held hostage by the people in NY and were upset about it. Why wouldn't they go for the better deal? <hr></blockquote>
Well, they did, didn't they? Not such a great deal now.
[quote] This deal was also about making the show more cost effective. <hr></blockquote>
Yes, and for Apple it is about getting value for their investment. Now it will be very cost effective.
[quote] Since Apple wants the show in a bigger city, developers lose out- that's the bottom line. <hr></blockquote>
Frankly, I think they will live. I don't think developers get that excited by Macworld, professionally.
[quote] I'm sorry it's sour grapes for you, but now you feel how those of us in the Boston area felt when the show left for New York. <hr></blockquote>
I don't think it is quite the same--I mean, we all lose out, with Apple not going. It's not like they are going to go to NYC on their own.
I'm just explaining why it makes sense for Apple. It's not an emotional one.
[quote] the show was always supposed to move back to Boston. It was inevitable, and a good move for everyone involved. <hr></blockquote>
Well, this hardly needs saying, but--NOT APPARENTLY FOR APPLE.
[quote] But what does Apple do? They have a fit. <hr></blockquote>
Look, they definitely sound pissed, but all they did is condemn the move and say they're not going. That's all. I'm sure that Apple previously told IDG, "We really like NYC." IDG must have weighed that and decided that saving money in Boston was more important. I doubt they thought Apple would pull out.
[quote] For the people in New York that don't like it, I'm sorry. Come visit Boston for a change. <hr></blockquote>
Look, Boston is fine. It's a very nice city, it's cheaper, blah blah blah. I would actually rather go there, because then I get a vacation.
BUT, Boston is nowhere near as effective for media purposes. I work in the entertainment industry, and let me assure you that there is no place like NYC for print publications--it makes a huge difference. Apple knows this.
[quote] In the end, Apple looks like the big loser; <hr></blockquote>
I actually think it's the most sensible and cost-effective thing they've done in a long time, and I think it speaks well of a committment to shifting emphasis onto Switchers and the other 90%.
Prediction: If Apple goes to an Expo next summer/fall, it will be PCEXPO in NYC, and thereby establish a beachhead of Macness there. If they do that they could clean up in the press.
Sponsor can meet a lot of things, and it's doubtful that this means a lot of cold cash.
<strong>Gotta say... good for Apple.
I knew this was going to happen. Apple has made it known they like the east coast expo being in NYC and Jobs has said he would not want the show to move to Boston.
Say all you want, fran can talk up boston all he wants, but when it comes down to it, there ain't no place like NYC... may be expensive, may have its problems, but its an amazing one of a kind environment... and Apple knows that... hype and publicity go a long ways here and it is the media capital of the world.
IDG are a bunch of assholes for letting this happen. They knew Apple was upset with a possible move to Boston yet they did it anyways...
Apple doesn't need Macworld...Macworld needs Apple. so who's stupid here? IDG</strong><hr></blockquote>
Very well said, applenut.
It's not the city that makes the news, it's Apple themselves. If Apple has a big announcement, it will be in the papers, on television, etc., just like it always is.
Macworld is Macworld and making the move to a newer and larger facility is only good for the show.
Not only that, but they are OPENING Boston's new convention center! That's huge news by itself and it will draw tons of people who just want to see the new convention center.
The 'media argument' is lame. This isn't the 1950s- the news media is out there. You'd think Boston doesn't even have a media the way that people are talking, when it's far from the truth.
In fact, I'd argue that Macworld in Boston would is a much larger story than Macworld in New York. When Macworld is in town, everybody would know about it, whereas in New York, it's just another of many events.
It might not say a lot about Boston, but you can bet that it will be the city's top priority when the show is in town.
With the new agreement, Macworld will get more advertising than ever, even better media coverage than before (especially in New England), and costs will be significantly decreased.
I also don't buy the argument that Apple approached IDG about staying in New York. From what the media is saying, it came out of the blue. Does anyone seriously think that IDG would have ignored Apple's request?
I can't believe New Yorkers are happy about this. Is your mentality, "Either we have the show or nobody has the show?"
EmAn, I know this is hitting below the belt, but you never even went to Macworld when it was in New York. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Boston isn't a bad place for Macworld. I'm sorry that the New Yorkers and Apple don't see it that way.
That part I agree with in principle, but the rest of your arguement seems to miss what I'm talking about.
[quote] Macworld is Macworld and making the move to a newer and larger facility is only good for the show. <hr></blockquote>
Fran, a good show has no correlation to these media issues. I'm sure the facilities in Boston kick total ass.
[quote] Not only that, but they are OPENING Boston's new convention center! That's huge news by itself <hr></blockquote>
This is the kind of news that is huge in an individual city, or maybe even region, but has nothing to do with capturing national media buzz.
[quote] The 'media argument' is lame. This isn't the 1950s- the news media is out there. You'd think Boston doesn't even have a media the way that people are talking, when it's far from the truth. <hr></blockquote>
Actually, in the 50's things might have worked out better for Boston.
All the media that COUNTS--all the national print media, the mainstream print media--comes out of New York. All of it. All. The only thing Boston has is THE ATLANTIC MONTHLY, and I don't think a MWBoston feature is their bag.
Fran, what are you talking about Boston media? No one is saying that it doesn't exist--there is plenty of it. I'm saying that it is not what Apple wants...and when they looked at the loss of NYC-based media, and factored in the costs, and want to move away from expectations for keynotes, blah blah blah they decided.
[quote] When Macworld is in town, everybody would know about it, whereas in New York, it's just another of many events. <hr></blockquote>
Exactly. And by "everyone" you mean, "the people of Boston"--and that's just not going to cut it.
[quote] It might not say a lot about Boston, but you can bet that it will be the city's top priority <hr></blockquote>
Oh, stop it! Boston is a big American city, and a very important one...let's not starting indulging in false modesty. NO ONE (at least not me) IS DISPARAGING BOSTON. Gah!
[quote] even better media coverage than before (especially in New England), <hr></blockquote>
Exactly.
[quote] I also don't buy the argument that Apple approached IDG about staying in New York. Does anyone seriously think that IDG would have ignored Apple's request? <hr></blockquote>
I can believe it...we don't know what went down. I would bet Apple said they didn't want to move, and IDG nodded but knew it had to for fiscal reasons, never thinking Apple would actually pull out.
OR Apple just wants out of some Expos for reasons we have all explored in this thread, and they sprung it on IDG to get themselves suddenly free. I don't know.
[quote] I can't believe New Yorkers are happy about this. Is your mentality, "Either we have the show or nobody has the show?" <hr></blockquote>
Are you *reading* what I'm writing? Sigh.
I would like Apple to be at every MacWorld. i would like MW to be in Boston, as then I get a vacation. However, I think this is a good decision FOR APPLE. This does not make it a good decision for me.
<strong>
Yeah, if Apple dosn't have a pressence at these expos, IDG might as well hold MacWorld 2006 in a High School Gym.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Or worse- back at the Home Brew Computer Club with cookies and milk for the kids.
<strong>
EmAn, I know this is hitting below the belt, but you never even went to Macworld when it was in New York. <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, that's part of why I feel the way I do about the whole MW Boston situation, but that's not all. I feel what everyone else said about "NY vs. Boston" or whatever is true. And yes, I've been to Boston before.
of course it is
[quote]The Javitz Center added tons of extra costs to IDG two weeks before the show that they claimed were 'non negotiable'. IDG was held hostage by the people in NY and were upset about it. Why wouldn't they go for the better deal?<hr></blockquote>
1.) have a link?
2.) if so, so what... u know, boston may have provided a better deal financially... but its impossible to expect the javits center to match it... free space? come on... IDG were cheap bastards and Boston played right in with them. Apple didn't
[quote]This deal was also about making the show more cost effective. Numerous developers had announced they would not be attending the show in NY because it would cost too much to exhibit. In Boston, this problem wouldn't happen as costs would be down and many companies would have much less of a distance to travel, especially the large number of companies based in New England.<hr></blockquote>
yet the last few Macworld NYs have been the largest most attended ones... face it, the economy sucks... NYC is expensive but developers would have pulled out of the show anyways... and the truth is, more and more will in the future... tech trade shows are pretty dumb to be honest... what purpose do they serve now that we have the internet, compusas everywhere, apple stores everywhere, seminars, etc?
[quote]By doing this, Apple alienates its users and its developers. Since Apple wants the show in a bigger city, developers lose out- that's the bottom line. <hr></blockquote>
by doing this, IDG alienates apple and its customers.... Apple is just a company that attends... IDG never made them a power in the decision and apparantly did not even make Apple a major consideration in the plans to move.... again, IDG is getting a good kick in the nuts for being dumbasses.
[quote]Applenut, I'm sorry it's sour grapes for you, but now you feel how those of us in the Boston area felt when the show left for New York. <hr></blockquote>
hey hey... I love boston, going there this saturday, actually was a bit excited about a MW Boston cause its more of a vacation for me then it is in NYC... but the fact is, NYC is a better venue. And Apple wants it in NYC.... Apple is what makes macworld.... not where IDG finds cheapest.
[quote]But what does Apple do? They have a fit. IDG claims that Apple is a sponsor of the show until 2006. If that's true, Apple is wasting a lot of money here.<hr></blockquote>
Fit? I'm sure they voiced there opinion and said they didn't want it to move from NYC... IDG moved it... there's no fit... If Apple doesn't like the move they have every right to not go
If you want to see NY vs. Boston, watch the Yankees play the Red Sox.
IDG chose Boston over New York for Macworld since it made the most sense. Boston gave IDG an awesome deal to move the expo including a new convention center that will more than rival the Javitz with no rent, cheaper labor prices, plenty of fixed rate, cheap hotel rooms, and plenty of other bonuses including advertising everywhere for free.
I'm sorry that New York didn't do more to get Macworld to stay, but that is NYC's fault.
The media argument doesn't fly guys, I'm sorry. Disagree with me all that you want.
The only speculation I've heard of why Apple decided to put up this front against IDG is to avoid bad press in NY. I guess that's fair since Apple will be blasted for moving the show to Boston even though it was IDG that did it. After all, it is 'Macworld'.
So the 'theory' is that Apple will put up this 'fight' now and backtrack later when no one remembers.
We're still 20 months from the first Boston show, though. So that's plenty of time for agreements to be made.
[ 10-18-2002: Message edited by: Max8319 ]</p>
*shrugs*
Fran, stop! You're killing me with the force of your rhetoric.
"Doesn't fly?" I spent a lot of time addressing every point you've made, and THAT is the response I get?
[quote] So the 'theory' is that Apple will put up this 'fight' now and backtrack later when no one remembers. <hr></blockquote>
I would buy that, but then why have they been so cold and bitchy? By being so aggressive I think they've closed off the option of changing their mind and going to Boston--if they had made a quieter statement, maybe, but I doubt they are changing their stance.
i do agree that 20 months is a long time, and it is possible, but I tend to doubt it.
1. Publishing/Media
2. Home Consumers
3. Education<hr></blockquote>
Ok, I'll respond to these points.
First of all, the Metro Boston area has the second largest HOME market of Mac users in the country. That's why there are so many Apple stores around here in a relatively small area, and why more are coming.
Second of all, Boston/Cambridge is college central. Look at all of the Universities and Collegegs around the Boston area and tell me that Macworld wouldn't target a ton of these schools?
Then there is the publishing market. Seybold was held in Boston every year in the Winter until last year when the convention center was too small for them. They are already booked to come back to Boston upon completion of the new convention center. If that market is so small, then why are they going back to Boston and not staying in New York?
Again- no one's going to challenge that New York isn't a media hub. But you make it sound like having the show in Boston will give Apple no press at all, in newspapers, magazines, or otherwise. I'm arguing that it is false.
Macworld is a huge technology show and it will be covered by the media. You will get stories in the papers like every year, as long as Apple delivers new products. This is nothing new and dates back years.
I haven't seen anyone argue the point that the Macworld that got the most press EVER was in Boston.
It's not the show that makes the news, it's the news that makes the show.
I'm sorry if you guys don't like my opinion here, but if the biggest argument against Apple attending the show is media attention, they are being foolish, as they will get all the attention they normally get.
I didn't see applenut's post last night before I made my post. That information about the Javitz Center raising costs was posted in the NY Times (I believe) during Macworld with a response of how upset IDG was about it. Then it was brought up a few times in discussions of why Macworld would be moved to Boston. I will try and find a link.
The media here is still reporting that Apple's decision came out of the blue and they have interviewed IDG officials who have said that this is all news to them and that they had discussions with Apple and they never had a problem with it.
With that in mind, I really think that this is a front by Apple to not get bad press in NYC.
After all, IDG runs Macworld in San Francisco and if Apple was really upset with IDG, they would have pulled out of that show as well. Not only that, but they have not pulled out of the New York show.
Apple is filing their 'protest' now, but I believe they will go to the Boston show. IDG will give them some kind of 'deal', and they will go. But like I said above, there's 20 months until the show; plenty of time for just about anything to happen.
anyway, just to chime in:
i, too, am beginning to believe that apple is doing this simply to act as though "leaving NYC wasn't OUR idea... we're not the bad guys. they are." yet still move to boston, possibly with a little strong-arming tactics for free floorspace, etc. thrown in for good measure.
i will agree with another poster in this thread, however:
toronto would make an excellent expo center. i am american, but have lived here the past four years. my wife and i will be moving back next year sometime when her schooling is complete, but toronto has a lot to offer. and if you are earning american dollars (unlike me now), everything here is so stupid-CHEAP! also, the waether up here is really beautiful int he summer (though this past july was god-awful, and i grew up in florida, and went to college in new orleans, so i know heat better than ANYbody).
so there's my two cents. i will be re-installing my work computer soon, too, so i will only be able to watch from the sidelines on these forums until the mods get 'em fixed. take care, everybody, and see you on the other side.
-rok-