A very false narrative: Microsoft Surface vs Apple iPad, Mac

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  • Reply 41 of 99
    robbyxrobbyx Posts: 469member
    I would go a step further and suggest that in the case of many, if not most, universities and large businesses, the reason why there is a continuation of the MS based PC hardware and software is the fact that the very people who direct and work in the IT departments:
    1. are MS die-hard fans / users
    2. need to justify their existence
    3. buy into the "low" cost hardware available

    Sure, there can be issues with software that doesn't have a Mac alternative, but given the fact that Apple addressed that years ago with Bootcamp making the MacBook Pro what used to be considered the best PC you could buy, suggests that's not a good excuse.
    #3 for the win.  I disagree with your Bootcamp argument and think software availability is a key factor. There are many industry-specific applications that aren't available for Mac.  No business is going to spend a premium on Mac hardware just to run Windows.  And users aren't going to reboot to jump between MacOS and Windows multiple times a day.  Plus Bootcamp requires the purchase of a Windows license, which makes it even more expensive (and pointless) to buy a Mac if you need a Windows application.  It's really just about hardware cost and software availability.  Most businesses don't care about the overall ownership cost either. They just care about what it costs today.
    elijahgwatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 99
    rezwitsrezwits Posts: 605member
    Bravo (good read). In my brief opinion, as the world turns Microsoft is getting squeezed. I seriously see them as having two final products, (besides the Corporate Side rapaged that they do :D): Windows Cloud & Office 365, $9.99//mo for each $14.99/mo for both, or even $20/mo for both! I see Microsoft just saying they could practically have 2xNetflix revenue, and that's all they have to do. The sad fact is this is ALL they CAN do. I unfortunately will be paying for Office 365whatever but, I will forbid myself in 2020 from paying for Windows Cloud/10+ on a monthly basis... That's the end of the road for ole MS... besides just having Office as their only product (due to an eroded virus ridden Kernel)!
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 99
    cali said:
    Microsoft announced that Surface sales plunged %26.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/microsoft-blames-slow-surface-sales-205312131.html

    so there goes that. 
    The 26% is revenue, not sales. Microsoft doesn't provide sales for the Surface product line. They said it was due in part to OEMs taking share. Plus I think their hardware is due for a refresh so probably people waiting to purchase. Let's see how Mac sales are when Apple reports.
    "Revenue not sales"  (laughing emoji)

    Where do you get your facts? Microsoft's 10K only says:

    "Surface revenue decreased $285 million or 26%, primarily due to a reduction in volumes sold."

    A bullshit story by Business Insider said it was good news that Microsoft was selling fewer Surface units because the whole point of Surface was to help hardware makers understand how to make with they were already making, just like Nexis and Google! 

    Are those the alternative facts you prefer to the truth?


    Ah! The classic "reference design" meme. I thought Google had a copyright on it?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 99
    RacerhomieXRacerhomieX Posts: 95unconfirmed, member
    I use primarily macs for home and my business but I IT a small medical clinic and bought 6 surface pro3s for electronic medical records. They are nice - the docs fill out the forms with the styluses because it is 3x more efficient then trackpad - but they still have a track pad option. They can use primarily in desktop mode. They are very light and have all day battery life. I think they don't sell as well because they are a premium product and that excludes 80% of the PC market - I mean an i7 in 1.73 lbs form factor! The "new" macbook (which I have and love except for the keyboard and dongles) is 2 lbs for a crappy slow processor. Instead of criticizing Microsoft here - we should be asking the same or more of Apple. An Apple Surface Pro4 clone - iOS/Mac OS, touchpad key cover - full travel keys, iPad Pro pens and 1.5 lbs with magsafe and new and legacy usb and display ports and a OEM complete dock solution with ethernet and tons of ports would sell like absolute hotcakes.

    If you use PCs and haven't tried a Surface Pro4 - do so. Its an incredible piece of engineering and makes iPads redundant (and that may be why Apple won't knock them off).

    I just wish Apple would step up it's Mac game so we can have decent competitive (in HW and price!) products - I mean touchbar - what were they thinking other then - Apple design committee meeting: "well we got to keep appearing innovative and we can't copy so lets try a touch bar - yea that's the ticket". And those new laptop keyboards.. - I use them but just absolutely hate them - it's not growing on me after 2 years and counting...
    You are right , that we should ask more from Apple. But trust me, an iPad would be sufficient for a lot of record keeping now ,with only a Price of $330. Surfaces are laptops ,period.They offer no good reason for you to spend so much on a touchscreen PC. Plus ,iPads have NO fans & 12hr battery life.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 45 of 99
    WLeeWLee Posts: 9unconfirmed, member
    What's with these articles, the defensiveness of them is actually awkward to read, they give an air of desperation that really isn't needed, yet.

    To claim the rise of 2-1s is not impeding the iPad is completely unattached from reality and the statistics that are coming out of most countries. To site a recent article, 2-1s in Australia are booming whilst tablets are falling of a cliff sales wise. There is a connection to claim other wise is not jounalism it's actually slightly disturbing, it's false news which I feel these articles are with the interpretations of stats which are so clearly inaccurate. 

    People are choosing 2-1s and companies are rising up on this model too, from the eve v, a new start up company, the asus transformers, linx tablets and more, 2-1s are a challenge, and pegging an expensive keyboard onto an iPad that adds no further functionality than a £9.99 Bluetooth keyboard is not the answer. 
    avon b7elijahg
  • Reply 46 of 99
    The article makes a fair point about the numbers, but the same argument could have been used about the Mac platform in comparison to the large number of Windows users. The point was, a dedicated core of pro users chose the Mac and these opinion formers influenced others to go out and buy the same. They believed the hardware was well made, fully featured and the software was often more stable, more thoughtfully designed and 'just worked'. In short: it looked like the future.

    I think it's fair to say it's unfortunate that the party that has helped to erode their narrative is Apple itself. Many Mac users face the choice of buying underpowered hardware without the features they want, but have to pay a premium for doing so. This led to the extraordinary situation where there was increasing demand for the older MacBook Pros. At the same time, desktop Macs have not been updated, leading to that bizarre announcement that Apple is 'starting' to develop a new Mac Pro. This is just as well, since being able to install an NVIDIA 1080 graphics card into either a 2012 Mac Pro or a Hakintosh makes their current hardware offerings increasingly irrelevant.

    I don't think anyone is going to pretend Windows 10 is the go-to platform, but many Mac users have began to look again, chiefly because Microsoft seem committed to improving it and trying new approaches. Although Sierra is an improvement on previous releases, many users complain Apple's software has decreased in quality and some developers complain about out of date APIs and software tools. Many are familiar with complaints about pro software being pulled or new versions lacking features. All of this has pros and cons, but rightly or wrongly the perception this that Apple really isn't taking the Mac platform anywhere. The other perception is that it is making computers based on making things look nice, rather than how they are used.

    You make the fair point that perhaps this isn't for Surface to win (yet), but it certainly is for Apple to lose. If other companies innovate or try new approaches, Apple increasingly looks like it's resting on its laurels: the age of the Mac hardware freeze suggests this. The ire of pro users has already peaked online, while interest in Surface and an increasing negative attitude to Apple means they could just as well rescue defeat from the jaws of victory.

    There's a great video on youtube about the Mac Pro and ex-Apple staffers apparently contacted the vlogger to say the 2013 Mac Pro had been a disaster from the start. It was instructive to hear that an education institution had been given some of these machine to feedback to Apple prior to release and after assessing them, went out and bought 2012 cheese grater Macs instead: the new Mac simply didn't meet their expectations. Even though this got fed back, it was probably already too late. Apple had built a huge factory to make these things and was now committed come what may. To nip interest in Surface in the bud, it will need to change the narrative that is no longer responsive to users nor innovating in desktop computing.

    edited April 2017 avon b7elijahg
  • Reply 47 of 99
    BluntBlunt Posts: 222member
    I don't think anyone is going to pretend Windows 10 is the go-to platform, but many Mac users have began to look again, chiefly because Microsoft seem committed to improving it and trying new approaches. Although Sierra is an improvement on previous releases, many users complain Apple's software has decreased in quality and some developers complain about out of date APIs and software tools. 

    Many users? Don't think so. I hear Windows 10 users complain about the system. By the way: all OSX releases from 10.6 are great systems. Way better then Windows.
    pscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 99
    As that's the case, all the buzz around Surface must be a fluke, right? 
  • Reply 49 of 99
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 3,825member
    cali said:
    Microsoft announced that Surface sales plunged %26.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/microsoft-blames-slow-surface-sales-205312131.html

    so there goes that. 
    The 26% is revenue, not sales. Microsoft doesn't provide sales for the Surface product line. They said it was due in part to OEMs taking share. Plus I think their hardware is due for a refresh so probably people waiting to purchase. Let's see how Mac sales are when Apple reports.
    "Revenue not sales"  (laughing emoji)

    Where do you get your facts? Microsoft's 10K only says:

    "Surface revenue decreased $285 million or 26%, primarily due to a reduction in volumes sold."

    A bullshit story by Business Insider said it was good news that Microsoft was selling fewer Surface units because the whole point of Surface was to help hardware makers understand how to make with they were already making, just like Nexis and Google! 

    Are those the alternative facts you prefer to the truth?

    I believe Microsoft said it on their earning call. Like I said let's see what Mac sales are when Apple reports next week. Of course we'll never know how well (or not) the touch bar MBP is selling because Apple doesn't provide sales figures by model.
  • Reply 50 of 99

    Did you deliberately choose to make that headline sound like a Trump quotation?


    I sometimes really wish MS would concentrate on software.

  • Reply 51 of 99
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,699member

    iOS doesn't have mouse pointer support on purpose, as you know. 

    What evidence do you have that Apple's record Mac sales at higher ASPs in Q1 were somehow discounted 2015 refurbs, apart from being necessary to claim that TouchBar didn't sell MBPs? Sounds like alt facts. 


    1.   iOS has pointer support for the Stylus.     Its fine if you are an artist.    If they want to see the iPP in greater numbers they need to make it more versatile and more useful to Professionals.    They should start with mouse/trackpad support and start adding in File and directly attached printer support.   Otherwise sales will continue to decline in the iPP segment.    I'm sure it will come but they are drawing it out far longer than they should.   At least Apple finally updated the regular iPad last month.

    2.   Apple released their new MBP.    I read or heard some where Apple's ASP was up $75.     80% of mac sales are laptops and the MBP was (supposedly) the hot item in 2017 Q1 (among computers).    Since the TB added $300 dollars to the price of the MBP.    That implies that  WAY less than half of MBP sold were had the TB.   Sounds like the Gimmick failed.    Do you have any actual separate number for sales of the MBP with TB versus without?     Apple has had their "mea Culpa" moment.   Hopefully they will be rethinking more dead-ends they started down   (Apple invited journalists who have taken the red pill because that's who they needed to talk to).
  • Reply 52 of 99
    I'm not here to argue that any of these products is "better" than the other, just that what Samsung and Microsoft have done recently is apparently more exciting and innovative. And obviously there's something to these narratives or else the author wouldn't feel compelled to address them. This whole article boils down to "Apple is still outselling the competition", which does address the straw man "Apple is doomed" narrative (no one really believes Apple is doomed), but it doesn't really address the heart of the issue, which is that 1) Samsung has come up with a really forward-leaning design while Apple is on year three of their current design, and 2) with the Surface Pro 4, Surface Book and now the Surface Studio, Microsoft has released multiple innovative designs while Apple has done less with their Mac lineup.

    The Mac Pro is three years old and turns out to have been a dead-end; the new 12" MacBook was a neat iteration and proof of concept that you could shrink a MacBook Air, but not much of a redesign or really any different that what PC OEMs are doing; the new MacBook Pro has been hammered for it's limitations (somewhat unjustly, IMHO), but even still it's more iterative than innovative, the Touch Bar notwithstanding (and let's be honest, the Touch Bar is not the future); the MacBook Pro also had the unfortunate position of being unveiled at the same time as the Surface Studio, which was a much more exciting unveiling.

    Again, I'm not here to argue whether any Apple, Samsung or Microsoft product is better than another, but it is undeniable that folks expect and desire more Apple innovation than they've seen in the last few years.
    edited April 2017 WLee
  • Reply 53 of 99
    Surface is garbage. It doesn't matter if it's upgraded with a faster processor or new design. Until the main flaw is resolved it'll be a useless tablet.

    What's the flaw? Windows Apps are horrible on a tablet with a touchscreen. If you thought Android developers were lazy when it comes to optimizing their Apps for larger screened devices, you should try a Surface with Windows. 
    chiapscooter63watto_cobra
  • Reply 54 of 99
    brucemcbrucemc Posts: 1,520member
    cali said:
    Microsoft announced that Surface sales plunged %26.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/microsoft-blames-slow-surface-sales-205312131.html

    so there goes that. 
    The 26% is revenue, not sales. Microsoft doesn't provide sales for the Surface product line. They said it was due in part to OEMs taking share. Plus I think their hardware is due for a refresh so probably people waiting to purchase. Let's see how Mac sales are when Apple reports.
    "Revenue not sales"  (laughing emoji)

    Where do you get your facts? Microsoft's 10K only says:

    "Surface revenue decreased $285 million or 26%, primarily due to a reduction in volumes sold."

    A bullshit story by Business Insider said it was good news that Microsoft was selling fewer Surface units because the whole point of Surface was to help hardware makers understand how to make with they were already making, just like Nexis and Google! 

    Are those the alternative facts you prefer to the truth?

    I believe Microsoft said it on their earning call. Like I said let's see what Mac sales are when Apple reports next week. Of course we'll never know how well (or not) the touch bar MBP is selling because Apple doesn't provide sales figures by model.
    Well, no one can say that you aren't obtuse.  Indeed we shall see about Mac sales - and if they fall 26% YoY it will be a clear problem - although you don't believe such a decline is any issue for MS.

    As to breaking out the sales models - I must have missed where MS provided the breakout of sales by Surface model.  Can you please provide a link?
    ericthehalfbeechiawatto_cobra
  • Reply 55 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,154member
    The story, while factually true, is based on two erroneous presumptions:
    1)  It's about comparing glitzy features from one vendor to another
    2)  It's all about marketing and sales revenue.

    The success of Apple and its strength is that its culture never lets it stoop to those levels.  Instead, it looks past the product (be it hardware or software) and looks at how it will serve the consumer.   Does it make his life better?

    Every other vendor out there looks at "How can we sell more 'stuff' to the public?"  So, they just keep generating "stuff" that, while all glitzy and shiny, doesn't necessarily make the customer's life better...

    That difference gives Apple a foundation to stand on that its competitors simply don't have.   It doesn't guarantee either short or long-term success, but it certainly improves the odds...
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 99
    brucemcbrucemc Posts: 1,520member

    k2kw said:

    iOS doesn't have mouse pointer support on purpose, as you know. 
    What evidence do you have that Apple's record Mac sales at higher ASPs in Q1 were somehow discounted 2015 refurbs, apart from being necessary to claim that TouchBar didn't sell MBPs? Sounds like alt facts. 
    1.   iOS has pointer support for the Stylus.     Its fine if you are an artist.    If they want to see the iPP in greater numbers they need to make it more versatile and more useful to Professionals.    They should start with mouse/trackpad support and start adding in File and directly attached printer support.   Otherwise sales will continue to decline in the iPP segment.    I'm sure it will come but they are drawing it out far longer than they should.   At least Apple finally updated the regular iPad last month.

    2.   Apple released their new MBP.    I read or heard some where Apple's ASP was up $75.     80% of mac sales are laptops and the MBP was (supposedly) the hot item in 2017 Q1 (among computers).    Since the TB added $300 dollars to the price of the MBP.    That implies that  WAY less than half of MBP sold were had the TB.   Sounds like the Gimmick failed.    Do you have any actual separate number for sales of the MBP with TB versus without?     Apple has had their "mea Culpa" moment.   Hopefully they will be rethinking more dead-ends they started down   (Apple invited journalists who have taken the red pill because that's who they needed to talk to).
    1) I don't understand the viewpoint that in order to make the iPad (Pro or otherwise) better, Apple needs to change it so that essentially it is almost a Mac (user visible file system, mouse, USB, windowing, Xcode, ...).  Apple make Macs for this purpose.  Why bastardize an iPad to attract the "professionals" that supposedly require 32+GB of RAM to do anything?  Apple just introduced a new MBP in a much thinner and lighter design that has all of these features.  Hopefully future versions will also include more RAM support.

    2) I don't think math is your strong suit.  Let's see if we can help you understand
    - Apple sells a variety of Mac models.  
    - Only the MBP was updated in the Q1'17 fiscal quarter, which included a higher price for the "new" MBPs.  All other pricing of other models (iMac, MB Air, MB, [Minis and Pros though likely not impactful]), was not changed.
    - In general, it has been estimated that the MB Air was Apple's best selling model.  Lower price and lighter.
    - In order for the ASP to rise YoY, especially by $75 dollars, requires that a large number of new MBP's were sold.  Even the ding-bat analysts could figure that out.
    edited April 2017 chiawatto_cobrapscooter63
  • Reply 57 of 99
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,422member
    Sales success and the quality of a product are independent factors.   Having said that, I have to say that I'm shocked by the low level of Surface sales, especially considering the large amount of TV advertising I've seen for the Surface line, most of which attacks Apple directly and a bit unfairly, because it attacks Apple's lack of a stylus on its computers while ignoring the iPad Pro.    Microsoft has got to be spending a fortune marketing the Surface and as such, they must be losing a lot of money on this product line.   

    And those who have told anecdotes about the Microsoft store in malls being largely empty are doing nothing more than that - telling anecdotes.   At the Roosevelt Field Mall in Long Island, NY, I've seen the Microsoft store busy.   Not as busy as the Apple store, but still busy.  That's not to say that anyone is buying anything as a result, but that could be true for the Apple store as well.   My assumption is that the Apple store in that mall does well, because it moved into a larger location a few years ago, but since Apple doesn't release individual store sales numbers, we really don't know.   In any case, all of that is just anecdotal.   The numbers, assuming they're accurate, tell the story.

    At the high end, while still less expensive than the latest MBP, they're still pretty expensive.  A Surface Pro 4 with i7, 16GB of RAM, 12.3" display, 1TB SSD has a street price of $2599 ($2722 with keyboard).  With a Core m3 Skylake, 4GB RAM and 128GB SSD, you can get in for just $749, but that's without keyboard or pen (so what's the point?).     An i5 with a pen is $849/$972 with keyboard.    Although that's a pretty low powered machine, that's not a terrible deal for users who don't need to do much.   

    When I tried earlier versions of these machines, I found the keyboard unusable.   It was like trying to type on jello.  Maybe they've improved it since then.   

    It seems to me that the SSDs are driving up the price of the MBP, but I've seen SSDs at retail for far less than what Apple charges.   It's time for Apple to stop ripping us off and lower the price of those machines (or at least double capacities for the same price).   As to whether Apple should attempt a hybrid machine, that's an open question.   
  • Reply 58 of 99
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,563member
    zoetmb said:
    Sales success and the quality of a product are independent factors.   Having said that, I have to say that I'm shocked by the low level of Surface sales, especially considering the large amount of TV advertising I've seen for the Surface line, most of which attacks Apple directly and a bit unfairly, because it attacks Apple's lack of a stylus on its computers while ignoring the iPad Pro.    Microsoft has got to be spending a fortune marketing the Surface and as such, they must be losing a lot of money on this product line.   

    And those who have told anecdotes about the Microsoft store in malls being largely empty are doing nothing more than that - telling anecdotes.   At the Roosevelt Field Mall in Long Island, NY, I've seen the Microsoft store busy.   Not as busy as the Apple store, but still busy.  That's not to say that anyone is buying anything as a result, but that could be true for the Apple store as well.   My assumption is that the Apple store in that mall does well, because it moved into a larger location a few years ago, but since Apple doesn't release individual store sales numbers, we really don't know.   In any case, all of that is just anecdotal.   The numbers, assuming they're accurate, tell the story.

    At the high end, while still less expensive than the latest MBP, they're still pretty expensive.  A Surface Pro 4 with i7, 16GB of RAM, 12.3" display, 1TB SSD has a street price of $2599 ($2722 with keyboard).  With a Core m3 Skylake, 4GB RAM and 128GB SSD, you can get in for just $749, but that's without keyboard or pen (so what's the point?).     An i5 with a pen is $849/$972 with keyboard.    Although that's a pretty low powered machine, that's not a terrible deal for users who don't need to do much.   

    When I tried earlier versions of these machines, I found the keyboard unusable.   It was like trying to type on jello.  Maybe they've improved it since then.   

    It seems to me that the SSDs are driving up the price of the MBP, but I've seen SSDs at retail for far less than what Apple charges.   It's time for Apple to stop ripping us off and lower the price of those machines (or at least double capacities for the same price).   As to whether Apple should attempt a hybrid machine, that's an open question.   
    I don't particularly have a problem with the concept of the 2 in 1 or hybrid either via MS or the OEM's. I think most people buy them as more feature laden alternatives to laptops, and use them in tablet mode for much the same tasks as the iPad "toy" is accused of; media browsing and consumption. In my opinion, these are a bit awkward combined, and Apple has fiercely resisted that, but I'm happy to let the market decide.

    I do believe the failure by MS to transition to ARM as an alternate hardware platform has doomed it's mobile efforts, not fatally. but attempting to reignite Windows in a middle aged mobile market is going to be problematic. Meanwhile, Apple has taken the only serious mobile tablet platform to date, and is ramping up both performance and capabilities, as well as evolving the form factor, results of which will be seen soon enough.

    One would have to have their heads in the sand to miss the effect that custom SOC's are having in mobile, especially Apple's A Series, and MS is still trapped in the x86 world, with all the costs and overhead that entails. More than that, we are seeing a trend to replace software functions with implementations on die, in an attempt to flank the slowing performance gains coming out of the fabs.

    iPad is poised to continue performance gains because Apple can afford to make it happen through its A Series, including even larger die as needed. Is Intel going to be able to, or even want to, do the same for MS while still maintaining its margins, and what will that do to profitability of Surface builders, including MS?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 59 of 99
    thttht Posts: 3,108member


    It would be a niche product on top of the mainstream laptop lineup. I don't think people would have a hard time with the price as long as the drawing input is class leading, keyboard input is acceptable and iOS app integration is good. 

    If you do the straight addition of the bottom SKUs of the iPad Pro 12.9 onto a 2015 MBP15, the end result is:

    $2000 + $800 = $2800
    0.71" + 0.27" = 0.98"
    4.5 lb + 1.6 lb = 6.1 lb
    100 WHr + 38 WHr = 138 WHr battery

    This is the older MBP15. The new MBP15 TB shaved 0.10" of thickness, went down to a 77 WHr battery and lost 0.5 lb.

    Integrating an iPad onto a MBP means these combined numbers will get better, and maybe it gets down to 0.75" thick, 5 lb, and a 100 WHr battery. Something the size of my 2015 MBP15. 

    It'll cost $3000 or more no doubt. But if the flexibility of input methods are realized, that cost can be driven down with time, and models starting at say $1500 could be introduced, like a 12" model. 

    I really think Apple didn't go far enough with the Touchbar. They should have went all the way with it. 

    People love their mechanical keyboards yes. But if you can have 200 buttons visible in a virtual keyboard, perhaps productivity can be enhanced, escpecially since you can use words instead of some single letter or iconography. People who love number pads can have one. The arrow key arrangement could be anyway you want. 

    Then, since it is a touch surface, custom control interfaces could be designed. Like for games. And obviously, something like this could be better as a note taking device, both in classrooms and at home, and drawing pad. 

    One of the factors built into a price is the expected volume it will be sold in. So Apple could design a really nice $4000 laptop but if it could only be sold in tiny quantities it would make no money. 

    That's one of the problems with Surface. At its current price it would be very profitable if it sold in the tens of millions instead of 1 million per quarter. At the same time, one reason why it doesn't sell in high quantities is because it competes against very cheap Windows PC alternatives, many of which are much less desirable but also far less expensive. That matters. 

    ---

    The people who draw up renderings of fantasy hardware often don't think about price or the volume it could to sell at given how much it would cost. 

    Apples hardware business in the late 80s involved selling high end computers that were ~ $10,000+.  It is vastly more profitable today selling mostly $700 iPhones in massive quantities.

    Very true that these fantasy renders don't equate to a successful product, but that is part of the fun. The good ones though, try to solve particular problems, and can walk the line on it being viable product.

    I'm just thinking how to integrate drawing and writing input into a computer form factor, whose input is designed around keyboard and pointer selection input. The dream of having a digital notebook, something that can replace a handwritten notebook hasn't come about just yet. A tablet with a stylus isn't quite there just yet. Then, how those handwritten notes are integrated into computing workflow on a computing platform isn't all that great either. An iPad Pro with the Pencil is still a bit wonky. I would like to have a sharper pencil and less hot zones (eg, my palm accidentally hitting a close button) in application design. Maybe not enough people find value in in drawing or taking hand written notes to make it worthwhile, and it will be forever consigned to niche-dom. 

    This has been something Microsoft has been trying to do for about 15 years now. The Surface is only the latest attempt, and they may be seeing the same roadblocks they've seen before with WIndows XP for Tablet PCs or whatever they called it. I've heard the attachment rate for keyboard covers for Surface devices is greater than 1. Ie, more keyboard covers have been sold than Surface tablets. If so, the implication is that people who have tried the Surface are learning they are basically using it like a laptop, which could spell a bit of trouble for Surface upgrade cycles.

    I have to think that if I was in school or was in a situation where taking notes was done a lot, something like what was outlined here would be quite attractive. I still want that digital hand written notebook. I'm hoping this dual screen clamshell solves a couple of things. I don't need to be doing origami to access the input surface like it is with keyboard covers. Here it is just opening the clamshell and maybe touching a virtual button to switch off the virtual keyboard or sliding the virtual keyboard away. If I need to type, the keyboard would be there in basically an instant. Obvious that trackpad functionality could be done a lot of different ways.
  • Reply 60 of 99
    jdb8167jdb8167 Posts: 123member
    As that's the case, all the buzz around Surface must be a fluke, right? 
    Take a look at Microsoft's 10K that was released this morning. Surface sales are down 26%. Verifying that what Daniel has been saying in these posts is correct. The Surface is an iPad killer meme is fake. You bought the meme but few are buying the actual hardware.
    brucemcwatto_cobrapscooter63
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