I live in LA where cultural diversity is what makes our city the best city on the planet. There are hundreds of different ethnic groups here and that is the way I like it. Diversity inspires open mindedness and innovation which I think can only be good for any organization.
Right. But you should not force that diversity, at the expense of everything else. If you hire talented people who happen to be of different ethnicity, cool. What is not cool, is when you impose quotas in order to force diversity onto your company, at the expense of the company by hiring less talented but more ...eh...diverse people.
There's that white-guy mischaracterization again -- nowhere has it been suggested Apple or other employers are going to lower the bar when hiring minorities or women. It just means actually trying to hire minorities/women. Why would you assume doing so means hiring "less talented" people? That's your assumption/bias right there.
Also, "diversity" is just pandering. Hire people based on their skills and the absurd focus on skin color and other collectivist talking points becomes irrelevant.
Man I can't believe how badly old white guys cling to that straw man. Diversity doesnt mean *not* hiring based on skills -- but it does mean to go out of your way to hire people of equal skill who aren't all white guys. That's the point. Equal skills, diverse background. It adds value because of experiences outside the same mono-culture.
If you have 50 white guy programmers, and you have two final candidates of equal skill but one is an asian woman, you'd do well to hire the asian woman, since the more diversity you have in your team the more ideas and perspectives will be brought to the product development cycle.
right, but that woman still has a skill set you need, right? That is the point - you choose based on that, and not because she is asian and you need to satisfy diversity gods.
Did you even read my post? You're hiring, you have two equally skilled candidates, one is a woman. Your team is all-male. You would do well to hire the woman because diverse backgrounds adds perspective and value to the team, its development, and the final product.
Which part do you have an issue with? Other than, you know, the woman part?
Having a dedicated vice president position reporting directly to the CEO smells of pandering and self-promotion.
Rich -- you're already claiming this black woman didn't earn her position high up within Apple and got it by scheming, not merit. Do you not even see it? Your own bias is right there....What evidence do you have that this woman didn't earn her coveted position? None. None is the evidence you have.
Hardly. Why is she not asian, though? There is one asian for two african americans in the usa. Would it not make more sense to hire a less represented minority representative to combat "not-so-diverse" conditions at the company?
Having a dedicated vice president position reporting directly to the CEO smells of pandering and self-promotion.
Rich -- you're already claiming this black woman didn't earn her position high up within Apple and got it by scheming, not merit. Do you not even see it? Your own bias is right there....What evidence do you have that this woman didn't earn her coveted position? None. None is the evidence you have.
Hardly. Why is she not asian, though? There is one asian for two african americans in the usa. Would it not make more sense to hire a less represented minority representative to combat "not-so-diverse" conditions at the company?
I dont know what you're talking about. The portion I quoted from 78Bandit was him suggesting Denise Young Smith didn't earn her promotion and instead scammed it via "pandering and self-promotion". So since you're replying to me on that point, please address that point. I said nothing of her being asian or not as it's not relevant to his claim that she scammed her promotion.
Also, "diversity" is just pandering. Hire people based on their skills and the absurd focus on skin color and other collectivist talking points becomes irrelevant.
Man I can't believe how badly old white guys cling to that straw man. Diversity doesnt mean *not* hiring based on skills -- but it does mean to go out of your way to hire people of equal skill who aren't all white guys. That's the point. Equal skills, diverse background. It adds value because of experiences outside the same mono-culture.
If you have 50 white guy programmers, and you have two final candidates of equal skill but one is an asian woman, you'd do well to hire the asian woman, since the more diversity you have in your team the more ideas and perspectives will be brought to the product development cycle.
right, but that woman still has a skill set you need, right? That is the point - you choose based on that, and not because she is asian and you need to satisfy diversity gods.
Did you even read my post? You're hiring, you have two equally skilled candidates, one is a woman. Your team is all-male. You would do well to hire the woman because diverse backgrounds adds perspective and value to the team, its development, and the final product.
Which part do you have an issue with? Other than, you know, the woman part?
Quote me, please, where I specifically said that I have a problem with that.
I live in LA where cultural diversity is what makes our city the best city on the planet. There are hundreds of different ethnic groups here and that is the way I like it. Diversity inspires open mindedness and innovation which I think can only be good for any organization.
Right. But you should not force that diversity, at the expense of everything else. If you hire talented people who happen to be of different ethnicity, cool. What is not cool, is when you impose quotas in order to force diversity onto your company, at the expense of the company by hiring less talented but more ...eh...diverse people.
There's that white-guy mischaracterization again -- nowhere has it been suggested Apple or other employers are going to lower the bar when hiring minorities or women. It just means actually trying to hire minorities/women. Why would you assume doing so means hiring "less talented" people? That's your assumption/bias right there.
White boy/guy? Did you just assume that I am white? Why? Racist much are you? And why did you assume that I am a male? Did you just deny my gender fluidity, then? Didnt you know that denying me that is an act of oppression? According to my progressive friends, you should be deplatformed and silenced, when you oppress others. Just saying.... Gawd, I love to get myself a slice of delicious irony/double standards for lunch.
I live in LA where cultural diversity is what makes our city the best city on the planet. There are hundreds of different ethnic groups here and that is the way I like it. Diversity inspires open mindedness and innovation which I think can only be good for any organization.
There isn't a city in this country that isn't culturally diverse at this point. These "Inclusion and Diversity" positions are about the imposition of an ideology (and virtue signalling). Efforts of this sort are intellectually flaccid bromides intended to placate Progressives.
Like clockwork the insecure white males bleat on about how diversity is killing everything good.
If you define everything good as being white and male, of course.
Good to see inclusiveness elevated to SVP level. Maybe that'll also mean less of the cringey dad jokes on stage.
No one here said anything resembling what you tried to portray as an average reader of this blog. Why do you need to make things up, if the reality is so bad? It almost sounds like, you want the reality to be that bad. And since it is not that terrible, you have to imagine and become (cough) creative (aka logical fallacies and lies). Diversity is wonderful when you have all other skills in place, so please, stop misrepresenting people here. I love diversity! I am part of it myself, but I will be the first one to call you out on your BS, especially when you misrepresent things.
It should be recognized that true diversity in this area arises from equal opportunity...and equal educational opportunity. The poor and disadvantaged don't have that equal educational opportunity to give them the background they need to become qualified.
If Apple and other big technology companies are truly interested in this situation improving, they should pour money into school funding. Offer scholarships for kids that need it. Develop curriculum and make it accessible to all (which Apple is doing with Swift Playgrounds).
But if you combine VP with HR you get VR. She must be leading the new VR division... confirmed!
Also, "diversity" is just pandering. Hire people based on their skills and the absurd focus on skin color and other collectivist talking points becomes irrelevant.
I live near St. Louis, Missouri. The St. Louis Symphony Orchestra for decades was dominated by male players. When the symphony board decided to conduct blind auditions (candidates played behind a curtain or screen) going forward more female players started being hired. Sometimes diversity needs a little help.
Oh come on this was first done in England a long time ago, and yes males only pick males for a number of reason. It is human nature to select people like yourself it not any sort of pedjustice it is basic human conditioning. Yes you are correct once you do a blind audition the best performers were always picked this has been a standard practice in Symphonies since this was found back in England a long time ago. Most all music auditions are done this way today. In this case the Symphonies were not looking for diversity but the best players, the only way to remove the human's natural bias was to do the blind audition.
You know the Nursing field was load with women for a long time, why women were biased at picking women because they felt women were more caring and nurturing, No one complained about this, actually when men starting going into nursing women complained like you would not believe. They stated all kinds of reason why men would not be good at it.
Now if you did blind interviews for all jobs including tech it will not make it more diverse, why because most non-whatevers choose not to be techies like engineers and such. For some reason people believe minorities and women went in to the tech field and were turned away at the doors so they could never get a job then decided to do something else. I have been in Tech for 30 yrs and work for company who activity try to hire a diverse work forces and they all fail, why because you can not hire what does not exist. You can not make someone into an engineer who does not have the capabilities. It is no different than trying to make someone into a Musician, if they lack the skills there is nothing you can do to change them. I do not see people scream that the world turn out more Musicians and actors, those people make lots of money if they are good, most time they actually discourage people.
Also, "diversity" is just pandering. Hire people based on their skills and the absurd focus on skin color and other collectivist talking points becomes irrelevant.
Man I can't believe how badly old white guys cling to that straw man. Diversity doesnt mean *not* hiring based on skills -- but it does mean to go out of your way to hire people of equal skill who aren't all white guys. That's the point. Equal skills, diverse background. It adds value because of experiences outside the same mono-culture.
If you have 50 white guy programmers, and you have two final candidates of equal skill but one is an asian woman, you'd do well to hire the asian woman, since the more diversity you have in your team the more ideas and perspectives will be brought to the product development cycle.
It's too bad you felt the need to exhibit your racism in your first statement, before making a good point in the second.
Also, it's not a straw man in a lot of cases, where affirmative action is a real thing in one way or another.
FWIW, while I don't believe racism plays a huge, active role in today's society, the consequences of past racism are still very present. I see it nearly every day. The solution of this is not to lower standards, but help raise up any group of people that were treated unjustly in the past, which is exactly what Apple is doing in part (e.g. the $40M donation to supporting tech grads from historically black colleges).
Apple walks the walk of diversity (unlike so many, who just superficially address the issue for the good press), I just wish Apple didn't feed the socially divisive rhetoric around race by doing things like this.
Why is hiring the best person for the job wrong? This person would only be needed if Apple was not hiring based on skills which I believe they are. Are they saying Apple not giving non-whites a chance? I don't believe that for a second... hiring bases on any factor other than skills is bad for Apple business (or any business). PC and SJW trying to change the culture of America...
Like clockwork the insecure white males bleat on about how diversity is killing everything good.
If you define everything good as being white and male, of course.
Good to see inclusiveness elevated to SVP level. Maybe that'll also mean less of the cringey dad jokes on stage.
The only thing that functioned like clockwork was the spinal level reflexive response from leftist idealogues (lets not kid ourselves here) who claim racism while being the only one's saying things that are actually racist.
"insecure white males bleat about how diversity is killing everything good"???
I know you're an intelligent person. It just baffles me how intelligent people can become so compromised by ideology. You're usually careful and thoughtful in what you say, but in your first sentence you have: an overreaching assumption, a racist remark, and a blatantly misleading strawman.
Can we please not cry racism any time you disagree with someone?
Lastly, we are definitely on the same page about the dad jokes.
Also, "diversity" is just pandering. Hire people based on their skills and the absurd focus on skin color and other collectivist talking points becomes irrelevant.
Man I can't believe how badly old white guys cling to that straw man. Diversity doesnt mean *not* hiring based on skills -- but it does mean to go out of your way to hire people of equal skill who aren't all white guys. That's the point. Equal skills, diverse background. It adds value because of experiences outside the same mono-culture.
If you have 50 white guy programmers, and you have two final candidates of equal skill but one is an asian woman, you'd do well to hire the asian woman, since the more diversity you have in your team the more ideas and perspectives will be brought to the product development cycle.
You do realize what you're saying here. If any company hires a person based on skin color or gender then that is discrimination. So Apple should favor one race of people over the other? Is that what you're saying? I don't think this is what Apple does or believes in this. The outcome here is situational and is not discrimination on Apple's part and certainly not wanting their company to be diverse. Apple hires from the pool of people who are available. It's that simple...
Also, "diversity" is just pandering. Hire people based on their skills and the absurd focus on skin color and other collectivist talking points becomes irrelevant.
Man I can't believe how badly old white guys cling to that straw man. Diversity doesnt mean *not* hiring based on skills -- but it does mean to go out of your way to hire people of equal skill who aren't all white guys. That's the point. Equal skills, diverse background. It adds value because of experiences outside the same mono-culture.
If you have 50 white guy programmers, and you have two final candidates of equal skill but one is an asian woman, you'd do well to hire the asian woman, since the more diversity you have in your team the more ideas and perspectives will be brought to the product development cycle.
It's too bad you felt the need to exhibit your racism in your first statement, before making a good point in the second.
Also, it's not a straw man in a lot of cases, where affirmative action is a real thing in one way or another.
FWIW, while I don't believe racism plays a huge, active role in today's society, the consequences of past racism are still very present. I see it nearly every day. The solution of this is not to lower standards, but help raise up any group of people that were treated unjustly in the past, which is exactly what Apple is doing in part (e.g. the $40M donation to supporting tech grads from historically black colleges).
Apple walks the walk of diversity (unlike so many, who just superficially address the issue for the good press), I just wish Apple didn't feed the socially divisive rhetoric around race by doing things like this.
Here is a real example of real life diversity. When I studies at my US university, we got about 50-60 people in out class. About ten were asian, and about 30 were black. No african americans,though. I doubt AMs were not there because they were prjudiced against, but because they either did not qualify or they were not interested in STEM. As for the poor economic conditions... If you are able to work for 12 -15 dollars an hr, you are able to pay for your education, if you pay in- state tuition. BS level classes are not that hard, comparing to MS, even though you need a crapload of them to get a degree. And then there AM specific scholarships for minority ( which is either for AM or indian ethnicities), yet almost no one uses those in STEM, because they don't go there. Racism has nothing to do with that, since for example, asians come consistenly on top of any other minority in terms of their income. In fact, they are the highest earning minority in the us. Looks like thy teach their kids right values. What is actually going on when there is an underpresentation of certain ethnicity within a certain field, is that certain mentality that prevails within some ethnic communities, ruins it for all those kids within those communities. That is where so called conditioning happens and precludes them from advancing in life. It is a mental roadblock, and not a financial one. Since it is a mindset that is being created within a ethnic community, outside influence will be rejected. Hence, you will not be able to fix it either with more money being poored into schools ( because going to school is what a white guy does, hence it is not kosher), nor with lowering standards (affirm action) because then you produce less prepared specialists.
(I do not disagree with you, but simply wanted to provide a bit of an example and some thoughts).
The issue isn't with white men or black women or anything like that at all. The issue is that companies are being brought down by these "values" that are basically just pandering to the left. If we are basing the hiring practices based on pure ability there probably wouldn't be very many white or black men working for apple. It would probably be very asian and Indian. The fact America has basically turned its education system into a life long mortgage and banks are using these "student loans" to suck even more prosperity from our population is the problem. Even if you manage to get into college your still looking at 60-70K to graduate with a degree in engineering to be able to even get one of these jobs. Unfortunately that has predominately been white men over the past 50 years. That number is changing now and I am happy it is. But the fact is the pool of talent is just not that diverse at this point. So for a company like Apple to come out and say hey were hiring a diversity and inclusion manager is just stupid. If apple wanted to make a big difference they should spend some of that 200 billion in cash on revamping the US education system. Just my .02
Comments
There's that white-guy mischaracterization again -- nowhere has it been suggested Apple or other employers are going to lower the bar when hiring minorities or women. It just means actually trying to hire minorities/women. Why would you assume doing so means hiring "less talented" people? That's your assumption/bias right there.
First, no one can know that, of course. Second, it doesnt fucking matter. He also scammed his backdated shares. So what?
Which part do you have an issue with? Other than, you know, the woman part?
Gawd, I love to get myself a slice of delicious irony/double standards for lunch.
If you define everything good as being white and male, of course.
Good to see inclusiveness elevated to SVP level. Maybe that'll also mean less of the cringey dad jokes on stage.
Diversity is wonderful when you have all other skills in place, so please, stop misrepresenting people here. I love diversity! I am part of it myself, but I will be the first one to call you out on your BS, especially when you misrepresent things.
If Apple and other big technology companies are truly interested in this situation improving, they should pour money into school funding. Offer scholarships for kids that need it. Develop curriculum and make it accessible to all (which Apple is doing with Swift Playgrounds).
Oh come on this was first done in England a long time ago, and yes males only pick males for a number of reason. It is human nature to select people like yourself it not any sort of pedjustice it is basic human conditioning. Yes you are correct once you do a blind audition the best performers were always picked this has been a standard practice in Symphonies since this was found back in England a long time ago. Most all music auditions are done this way today. In this case the Symphonies were not looking for diversity but the best players, the only way to remove the human's natural bias was to do the blind audition.
You know the Nursing field was load with women for a long time, why women were biased at picking women because they felt women were more caring and nurturing, No one complained about this, actually when men starting going into nursing women complained like you would not believe. They stated all kinds of reason why men would not be good at it.
Now if you did blind interviews for all jobs including tech it will not make it more diverse, why because most non-whatevers choose not to be techies like engineers and such. For some reason people believe minorities and women went in to the tech field and were turned away at the doors so they could never get a job then decided to do something else. I have been in Tech for 30 yrs and work for company who activity try to hire a diverse work forces and they all fail, why because you can not hire what does not exist. You can not make someone into an engineer who does not have the capabilities. It is no different than trying to make someone into a Musician, if they lack the skills there is nothing you can do to change them. I do not see people scream that the world turn out more Musicians and actors, those people make lots of money if they are good, most time they actually discourage people.
Also, it's not a straw man in a lot of cases, where affirmative action is a real thing in one way or another.
FWIW, while I don't believe racism plays a huge, active role in today's society, the consequences of past racism are still very present. I see it nearly every day. The solution of this is not to lower standards, but help raise up any group of people that were treated unjustly in the past, which is exactly what Apple is doing in part (e.g. the $40M donation to supporting tech grads from historically black colleges).
Apple walks the walk of diversity (unlike so many, who just superficially address the issue for the good press), I just wish Apple didn't feed the socially divisive rhetoric around race by doing things like this.
"insecure white males bleat about how diversity is killing everything good"???
I know you're an intelligent person. It just baffles me how intelligent people can become so compromised by ideology. You're usually careful and thoughtful in what you say, but in your first sentence you have: an overreaching assumption, a racist remark, and a blatantly misleading strawman.
Can we please not cry racism any time you disagree with someone?
Lastly, we are definitely on the same page about the dad jokes.
As for the poor economic conditions... If you are able to work for 12 -15 dollars an hr, you are able to pay for your education, if you pay in- state tuition. BS level classes are not that hard, comparing to MS, even though you need a crapload of them to get a degree. And then there AM specific scholarships for minority ( which is either for AM or indian ethnicities), yet almost no one uses those in STEM, because they don't go there.
Racism has nothing to do with that, since for example, asians come consistenly on top of any other minority in terms of their income. In fact, they are the highest earning minority in the us. Looks like thy teach their kids right values.
What is actually going on when there is an underpresentation of certain ethnicity within a certain field, is that certain mentality that prevails within some ethnic communities, ruins it for all those kids within those communities. That is where so called conditioning happens and precludes them from advancing in life. It is a mental roadblock, and not a financial one. Since it is a mindset that is being created within a ethnic community, outside influence will be rejected. Hence, you will not be able to fix it either with more money being poored into schools ( because going to school is what a white guy does, hence it is not kosher), nor with lowering standards (affirm action) because then you produce less prepared specialists.
(I do not disagree with you, but simply wanted to provide a bit of an example and some thoughts).