look at the stats of the machine, compare it to a windows PC, compare the price => macs are overpriced
people who think macs are fast enough, good enough, and gosh darnit - stop bashing that sweet as pie apple corporation: are either dilusional, or they understand that apple has to foot the bill for hardware and software development, and has a much smaller economies of scale.
fact is: apple computers will cost more no matter what as long as apple operates with its current business model.
other important fact: most mac users wouldn't care that macs cost more than PC's - however the performance delta is making that doubly hard to swallow in recent years, and that is the cause of all this bitching lately...
who cares if we voice our opinion openly about how we feel about the tirades of some PC users who feel the need to infect Mac boards because they have some agenda to meet. I do not care if I offend a PC bigot, because there is no convincing them anyway. Maybe if companies like dell and gateway would actually lead the way and innovate rather than just finding the cheapest vendor for the stuff that Apple has made standard, then PC prices would be just as high. Apple came out with the first floppy, made CD-rom standard, first to implement USB, came out with firewire, Invented the trackpad that all of us are so used to on our laptops. Came out with the first GUI, the list goes on and on. We pay more for the technology that Apple invents. FACE IT, without Apple, the PC world would not be as far as it is today. Say what you will, but you can never take any of this away. So do yourself a favor, go buy a Dell dude, and join a Dell forum, if you can find one, and talk about how lucky you are that 8 of the top ten most selling software for the PC are anti-virus programs and crash recovery programs.
It's the econmy of scale in action. I think a way for Apple to dig itself out of this rut is to bite the bullet short term and make MUCH less money on margins, so when market share finally expands, they can make decent profit.
<strong>Came out with the first GUI</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well first GUI on a person computer, the Lisa, but Xerox invented the thing. Not Apple. But I am with you on everything else. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
It's the econmy of scale in action. I think a way for Apple to dig itself out of this rut is to bite the bullet short term and make MUCH less money on margins, so when market share finally expands, they can make decent profit.
<strong>I've noticed a huge crop of price whining these days. "Why do macs have to cost so much? Why can't life be fair?" If economics operated this way, I'd own a glass plasma TV and a garage full of Porsches.</strong><hr></blockquote>
A Macintosh isn't a Porsche,
A Macintosh isn't a Glass Plasma TV,
People complain about the price of the Macintosh computers because they are far more expensive than PC's than ever before.
When a Mac was only 20% more expensive than a comperable PC and a great deal better than contemporary PC's the price differance wasn't such an issue.
Today PC's have a consiterable advantage over contemporary Macs, and when Macs cost anywhere from 200% to 600% more expensive than contemporary PC's it isn't difficult to understand Apple's current position in the market.
The principal reason Apple is losing marketshare to the point of irrelivence is price. When you can get a monster PC for far under $1000 it isn't difficult to understand why Apple is failing in the consumer market.
As for education, Apple is down 12% this quarter, when you can get 3x as many Dell's for the price of one Mac, schools are going to buy the Dells.
Apple might win the odd high profile education contract, but their presence is eroding overall.
Ummm, why don't you break down this under a grand PC, to include software that the Mac includes and give us the %200 price differrence. It is easy to spout off some numbers, give us the facts if you are soo good.
The stupid iApps included with the mac only have value if you actually USE them, I have only ever used iTunes, and it is no better than Windows Media Player
Why not sell the iApps seperately and discount the price of the computer accordingly?
However those under $1000 PC's all include Microsoft Office or Corel Word Perfect Suite or at the very least Microsoft Works which is a great deal better than AppleWorks
still no reference. and personal opinion as far as the media player goes. The iapps are very usefull if you are creative in any way. And microsoft works(oxymoron) because it is not compatible with word, unlike appleworks. Where are your sources?? can't find any? If you want to play, bring it on!
Sometimes I wonder about you people <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> tehe...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why don't you say something for a change, rather than uttering a thousand words without saying anything.
Some counter arguments:
1) I am not saying macs are better in any way than anything else.
2) I agree that macs are expensive, perhaps even a bit too expensive.
But that's life. If you can't afford one, don't whine.
Next to this response:
>> "Macs are not Porsches or glass plasma TV's"
Yes, Glass Plasma TV's are awesome, but Porsches are 90% image. They are insanely overpriced. They are not made on assembly lines. It's pure image. They're not even that fast. The $200,000 911 GT3 is nice, but a Skyline is better.
But damn, image can be cool.
The only redeeming factor about the mac price tag is the accompanying high resale value. PC's go from 1500 to 200 very quickly. A 3000 dollar mac will cost 1000-1500 two years after you buy it.
<strong>still no reference. and personal opinion as far as the media player goes. The iapps are very usefull if you are creative in any way. And microsoft works(oxymoron) because it is not compatible with word, unlike appleworks. Where are your sources?? can't find any? If you want to play, bring it on!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well if they are so valuble, then the creative people will buy them for themselve.
Microsoft Office and Corel WordPerfect Suite are fully featured office suites, Microsoft Works atleast includes a fully functional Microsoft Word. Microsoft hasn't shipped Microsoft Works without a complete Microsoft Word in YEARS.
AppleWorks is a dumbed down minimal functionality suite that does a little of everything, but nothing all that well.
<strong>Yes, Glass Plasma TV's are awesome, but Porsches are 90% image. They are insanely overpriced. They are not made on assembly lines. It's pure image. They're not even that fast. The $200,000 911 GT3 is nice, but a Skyline is better.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Porches are much faster and higher quality than the average car, their price reflects that.
Macs are not faster than PC's and haven't been for years, and Apple quality has seriously suffered since the mid-90's, look no further than the dying eMacs and Powerbook G4's that look like they have been in a hail storm out of the box.
Not to mention the new G4 towers that make your office sound like the runway at O'Hare
[ 10-26-2002: Message edited by: Stagflation Steve ]</p>
moving on...stagflatulation steve brings nothing to the table. Same old meaningless rants by a PC dork with nothing better to do and no forums of his own to play in.
<strong>moving on...stagflatulation steve brings nothing to the table. Same old meaningless rants by a PC dork with nothing better to do and no forums of his own to play in.</strong><hr></blockquote>It sounds more like you've fallen for the Apple RDF hook, line, and sinker.
You must be blind if you can't see the problems here. The price/permormance ratio is a serious issue these days. If it wasn't, then why do you think there's so much complaining to begin with?
Oh yea, full RDF going on here. That is why I own everything Apple has ever put out. They ship it to me one day before it is released, and just bill me later, because they know that I will buy it; whatever it may be.
My quote can be seen as what you want, just like the prices that some of you don't like to pay. But with no support and endless rants. I get tired and just say whatever.
While some prices may be a little high, I would not call them overpriced, not for what you get.
everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I was just wanting some facts(reasons) some say the things they do about Macs. I mean it is not like they have to buy them, or you brad for that matter.
MSN chat? Is that M$ messenger? Like the one I have open right now on my 800 iMac on Jag??? talking to my buddy at work??? Surely your talking about something different...."Please tell me you've got something more, Lieutenant. Please tell me there's an ace up your sleeve. These two marines are on trial for their lives"....sorry useless A Few Good Men quotes. </strong><hr></blockquote>
MSN Chat is browser-based and will not work with Mac browsers, the reason is probably that it utilizes Microsoft's proprietary version of Java, but I'm not sure at all about that.
<strong>The stupid iApps included with the mac only have value if you actually USE them, I have only ever used iTunes, and it is no better than Windows Media Player.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ah, someone who hasn't recognized the value of smart playlists...
F*** thinking, I'd rather my computer do it for me (and I mean that in a good way.)
We are upset because we like the Macintosh so much, and we see Apple being smothered by a delusional man child.
Steve Jobs might be a reasonable visionary, but he is a horrible business man.
Steve Jobs has never run a sucessful business, look at Next, at the time Next was 10 years ahead of HP, IBM, Sun and DEC.
The Unix workstation market was ripe for the picking, what became of Next?
It fell apart, became irrelivent and Apple bought it for pennies on the dollar.
What about Pixar, Pixar was hours from death when Disney saved Pixar, now Steve Jobs is doing every thing short of taking a shit on Michael Eisners front lawn to destroy Pixars relationship with Disney.
Now look at Apple, at the height of Apple's death spiral, Apple commanded 10% marketshare, now some years later, Apple's marketshare has fallen below 3% and shows no sign of slowing down. Apple is in the same position today it was in when Steve got fired for the first time. Only this time there isn't someone like John Scully to throw Steve out on his ass.
Remember, the battle between Steve and Scully began when Scully wanted to lower the price of the Macintosh, Steve would rather see the Mac collecting dust in warehouses than sold at a competitive price.
Apple needs a Frank Lorenzo to lead the company, not a middle aged pot smoking freak who has come within a hair of running every company he has been involved with into the ground.
<strong>We are upset because we like the Macintosh so much, and we see Apple being smothered by a delusional man child.
Steve Jobs might be a reasonable visionary, but he is a horrible business man.
Steve Jobs has never run a sucessful business, look at Next, at the time Next was 10 years ahead of HP, IBM, Sun and DEC.
The Unix workstation market was ripe for the picking, what became of Next?
It fell apart, became irrelivent and Apple bought it for pennies on the dollar.
What about Pixar, Pixar was hours from death when Disney saved Pixar, now Steve Jobs is doing every thing short of taking a shit on Michael Eisners front lawn to destroy Pixars relationship with Disney.
Now look at Apple, at the height of Apple's death spiral, Apple commanded 10% marketshare, now some years later, Apple's marketshare has fallen below 3% and shows no sign of slowing down. Apple is in the same position today it was in when Steve got fired for the first time. Only this time there isn't someone like John Scully to throw Steve out on his ass.
Remember, the battle between Steve and Scully began when Scully wanted to lower the price of the Macintosh, Steve would rather see the Mac collecting dust in warehouses than sold at a competitive price.
Apple needs a Frank Lorenzo to lead the company, not a middle aged pot smoking freak who has come within a hair of running every company he has been involved with into the ground.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree. jobs have done his part. he should take his new plane and fly off.
Get someone who is more consumer sensitive.
I stand by my original stand; Macs are way expensive to PCs and even with all the great iapps, the prices are still not justified
And those who say that the PCs are crash happy and sucks, u guys probably have not used one of those 2ghz Pcs with Xp. Granted, they dun have iapps, but given the prices of such machines nowdays, it is not hard to understand why switchers are few and rare.
And finally, I love my Mac and hope prices will fall so I can afford more Mac and If Apple market share rises, can attract more software and spend more on improving its configurations
Comments
look at the stats of the machine, compare it to a windows PC, compare the price => macs are overpriced
people who think macs are fast enough, good enough, and gosh darnit - stop bashing that sweet as pie apple corporation: are either dilusional, or they understand that apple has to foot the bill for hardware and software development, and has a much smaller economies of scale.
fact is: apple computers will cost more no matter what as long as apple operates with its current business model.
other important fact: most mac users wouldn't care that macs cost more than PC's - however the performance delta is making that doubly hard to swallow in recent years, and that is the cause of all this bitching lately...
<strong>Came out with the first GUI</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well first GUI on a person computer, the Lisa, but Xerox invented the thing. Not Apple. But I am with you on everything else. <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
[ 10-26-2002: Message edited by: trailmaster308 ]</p>
<strong>I've noticed a huge crop of price whining these days. "Why do macs have to cost so much? Why can't life be fair?" If economics operated this way, I'd own a glass plasma TV and a garage full of Porsches.</strong><hr></blockquote>
A Macintosh isn't a Porsche,
A Macintosh isn't a Glass Plasma TV,
People complain about the price of the Macintosh computers because they are far more expensive than PC's than ever before.
When a Mac was only 20% more expensive than a comperable PC and a great deal better than contemporary PC's the price differance wasn't such an issue.
Today PC's have a consiterable advantage over contemporary Macs, and when Macs cost anywhere from 200% to 600% more expensive than contemporary PC's it isn't difficult to understand Apple's current position in the market.
The principal reason Apple is losing marketshare to the point of irrelivence is price. When you can get a monster PC for far under $1000 it isn't difficult to understand why Apple is failing in the consumer market.
As for education, Apple is down 12% this quarter, when you can get 3x as many Dell's for the price of one Mac, schools are going to buy the Dells.
Apple might win the odd high profile education contract, but their presence is eroding overall.
A link or two, might help also.
[ 10-26-2002: Message edited by: ijerry ]</p>
Why not sell the iApps seperately and discount the price of the computer accordingly?
However those under $1000 PC's all include Microsoft Office or Corel Word Perfect Suite or at the very least Microsoft Works which is a great deal better than AppleWorks
<strong> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
fully animated smilie response pattern enabled, :eek:
ooops, there's another
Sometimes I wonder about you people <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> tehe...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why don't you say something for a change, rather than uttering a thousand words without saying anything.
Some counter arguments:
1) I am not saying macs are better in any way than anything else.
2) I agree that macs are expensive, perhaps even a bit too expensive.
But that's life. If you can't afford one, don't whine.
Next to this response:
>> "Macs are not Porsches or glass plasma TV's"
Yes, Glass Plasma TV's are awesome, but Porsches are 90% image. They are insanely overpriced. They are not made on assembly lines. It's pure image. They're not even that fast. The $200,000 911 GT3 is nice, but a Skyline is better.
But damn, image can be cool.
The only redeeming factor about the mac price tag is the accompanying high resale value. PC's go from 1500 to 200 very quickly. A 3000 dollar mac will cost 1000-1500 two years after you buy it.
<strong>still no reference. and personal opinion as far as the media player goes. The iapps are very usefull if you are creative in any way. And microsoft works(oxymoron) because it is not compatible with word, unlike appleworks. Where are your sources?? can't find any? If you want to play, bring it on!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well if they are so valuble, then the creative people will buy them for themselve.
Microsoft Office and Corel WordPerfect Suite are fully featured office suites, Microsoft Works atleast includes a fully functional Microsoft Word. Microsoft hasn't shipped Microsoft Works without a complete Microsoft Word in YEARS.
AppleWorks is a dumbed down minimal functionality suite that does a little of everything, but nothing all that well.
<strong>Yes, Glass Plasma TV's are awesome, but Porsches are 90% image. They are insanely overpriced. They are not made on assembly lines. It's pure image. They're not even that fast. The $200,000 911 GT3 is nice, but a Skyline is better.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Porches are much faster and higher quality than the average car, their price reflects that.
Macs are not faster than PC's and haven't been for years, and Apple quality has seriously suffered since the mid-90's, look no further than the dying eMacs and Powerbook G4's that look like they have been in a hail storm out of the box.
Not to mention the new G4 towers that make your office sound like the runway at O'Hare
[ 10-26-2002: Message edited by: Stagflation Steve ]</p>
533mhz G4
300mhz G3
Power Mac 6500/225
Power Mac 6100
Quadra 650
Macintosh IIci
Macintosh Plus
Original Macintosh
333mhz Lombard Powerbook
Powerbook 1400
Powerbook 540c
Powerbook 100
<strong>moving on...stagflatulation steve brings nothing to the table. Same old meaningless rants by a PC dork with nothing better to do and no forums of his own to play in.</strong><hr></blockquote>It sounds more like you've fallen for the Apple RDF hook, line, and sinker.
You must be blind if you can't see the problems here. The price/permormance ratio is a serious issue these days. If it wasn't, then why do you think there's so much complaining to begin with?
My quote can be seen as what you want, just like the prices that some of you don't like to pay. But with no support and endless rants. I get tired and just say whatever.
While some prices may be a little high, I would not call them overpriced, not for what you get.
everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I was just wanting some facts(reasons) some say the things they do about Macs. I mean it is not like they have to buy them, or you brad for that matter.
end of line...
<strong>
MSN chat? Is that M$ messenger? Like the one I have open right now on my 800 iMac on Jag??? talking to my buddy at work??? Surely your talking about something different...."Please tell me you've got something more, Lieutenant. Please tell me there's an ace up your sleeve. These two marines are on trial for their lives"....sorry useless A Few Good Men quotes.
MSN Chat is browser-based and will not work with Mac browsers, the reason is probably that it utilizes Microsoft's proprietary version of Java, but I'm not sure at all about that.
Not the same thing as MSN Messenger, in short.
<strong>The stupid iApps included with the mac only have value if you actually USE them, I have only ever used iTunes, and it is no better than Windows Media Player.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ah, someone who hasn't recognized the value of smart playlists...
F*** thinking, I'd rather my computer do it for me (and I mean that in a good way.)
Steve Jobs might be a reasonable visionary, but he is a horrible business man.
Steve Jobs has never run a sucessful business, look at Next, at the time Next was 10 years ahead of HP, IBM, Sun and DEC.
The Unix workstation market was ripe for the picking, what became of Next?
It fell apart, became irrelivent and Apple bought it for pennies on the dollar.
What about Pixar, Pixar was hours from death when Disney saved Pixar, now Steve Jobs is doing every thing short of taking a shit on Michael Eisners front lawn to destroy Pixars relationship with Disney.
Now look at Apple, at the height of Apple's death spiral, Apple commanded 10% marketshare, now some years later, Apple's marketshare has fallen below 3% and shows no sign of slowing down. Apple is in the same position today it was in when Steve got fired for the first time. Only this time there isn't someone like John Scully to throw Steve out on his ass.
Remember, the battle between Steve and Scully began when Scully wanted to lower the price of the Macintosh, Steve would rather see the Mac collecting dust in warehouses than sold at a competitive price.
Apple needs a Frank Lorenzo to lead the company, not a middle aged pot smoking freak who has come within a hair of running every company he has been involved with into the ground.
<strong>We are upset because we like the Macintosh so much, and we see Apple being smothered by a delusional man child.
Steve Jobs might be a reasonable visionary, but he is a horrible business man.
Steve Jobs has never run a sucessful business, look at Next, at the time Next was 10 years ahead of HP, IBM, Sun and DEC.
The Unix workstation market was ripe for the picking, what became of Next?
It fell apart, became irrelivent and Apple bought it for pennies on the dollar.
What about Pixar, Pixar was hours from death when Disney saved Pixar, now Steve Jobs is doing every thing short of taking a shit on Michael Eisners front lawn to destroy Pixars relationship with Disney.
Now look at Apple, at the height of Apple's death spiral, Apple commanded 10% marketshare, now some years later, Apple's marketshare has fallen below 3% and shows no sign of slowing down. Apple is in the same position today it was in when Steve got fired for the first time. Only this time there isn't someone like John Scully to throw Steve out on his ass.
Remember, the battle between Steve and Scully began when Scully wanted to lower the price of the Macintosh, Steve would rather see the Mac collecting dust in warehouses than sold at a competitive price.
Apple needs a Frank Lorenzo to lead the company, not a middle aged pot smoking freak who has come within a hair of running every company he has been involved with into the ground.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree. jobs have done his part. he should take his new plane and fly off.
Get someone who is more consumer sensitive.
I stand by my original stand; Macs are way expensive to PCs and even with all the great iapps, the prices are still not justified
And those who say that the PCs are crash happy and sucks, u guys probably have not used one of those 2ghz Pcs with Xp. Granted, they dun have iapps, but given the prices of such machines nowdays, it is not hard to understand why switchers are few and rare.
And finally, I love my Mac and hope prices will fall so I can afford more Mac and If Apple market share rises, can attract more software and spend more on improving its configurations