Apple may aid investigation into deadly 2016 EgyptAir crash

AppleInsider

Apple on Friday said that it's open to cooperation with French authorities, who are exploring the possibility that two of the company's devices were linked to the crash of EgyptAir Flight 804 in 2016.

The flight's first officer may have plugged an iPhone 6s and an iPad mini 4 into the wrong socket in the jet's cockpit, French officials told Le Parisien. That may have triggered runaway heat, in turn sparking a fire.

At the moment, the investigation is being helped by an engineer from the French National Center for Scientific Research, as well as two people fron the French defense ministry, including a physics professor and an engineer specializing in batteries. Results from the investigation should be submitted by Sept. 30.

Apple told the Parisien that it wasn't aware of evidence linking its devices to the EgyptAir disaster.

Batteries in the company's products are occasionally blamed for causing fires. Most recently an Australian woman complained that her Beats headphones exploded mid-flight, but Apple blamed the incident on her using third-party batteries.

The company has had to admit fault in the past, for instance instituting not one but two replacement programs for the first-generation iPod nano.

EgyptAir Flight 804 vanished over the Mediterranean on May 19 last year, killing 66 people. The jet was flying from Paris to Cairo at 37,000 feet when it suddenly veered 90 degrees to the left, then 360 degrees to the right, and began dropping altitude.

saltyzip

Don't iPhone and iPad use same charging cable and power output. Seems dumb  they have specific ports for each device in a plane.

ericthehalfbee

I'm not buying this excuse that an iPhone or iPad was responsible. Based on the flight recorder data they knew there was a fire in/near the cockpit with actual sensors showing smoke (fire) in the toilet behind the cockpit, in the avionics bay (under the floor of the cockpit) and in the cockpit itself

Not sure how a possible iPhone/iPad catching fire in the cockpit would somehow cause fires to appear in two different locations, especially the avionics bay which is fairly well protected.

The source article claims they are going to procure several iPhones and iPads (new and used) of the exact same type the copilot had to test them. Not sure how they plan on testing them, since fires are very rare with iOS devices and they're not going to be able to replicate a fire with a handful of devices. And how can you plug an iOS device into "the wrong socket"? Do these planes have USB ports in the cockpit? Or maybe AC outlets you can plug a charger or other accessory into? These should be protected with fuses or similar.

And even if an iPhone/iPad caught fire, I find it hard to believe the flight crew couldn't extinguish it. These are trained professionals, not some joe-blow consumer woken in the middle of the night with a phone burning on their night stand and standing their dumbfounded wondering what to do about it.

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

edited May 2017

volcan

They have halon fire extinguishers on flight decks. I can't see a mobile device starting a fire so quickly that trained aviation professionals couldn't extinguish it before it ruined the navigation controls.

strangedays

saltyzip said:

Don't iPhone and iPad use same charging cable and power output. Seems dumb  they have specific ports for each device in a plane.

You're reading it wrong. 

randominternetperson

ericthehalfbee said:

I'm not buying this excuse that an iPhone or iPad was responsible. Based on the flight recorder data they knew there was a fire in/near the cockpit with actual sensors showing smoke (fire) in the toilet behind the cockpit, in the avionics bay (under the floor of the cockpit) and in the cockpit itself

Not sure how a possible iPhone/iPad catching fire in the cockpit would somehow cause fires to appear in two different locations, especially the avionics bay which is fairly well protected.

The source article claims they are going to procure several iPhones and iPads (new and used) of the exact same type the copilot had to test them. Not sure how they plan on testing them, since fires are very rare with iOS devices and they're not going to be able to replicate a fire with a handful of devices. And how can you plug an iOS device into "the wrong socket"? Do these planes have USB ports in the cockpit? Or maybe AC outlets you can plug a charger or other accessory into? These should be protected with fuses or similar.

And even if an iPhone/iPad caught fire, I find it hard to believe the flight crew couldn't extinguish it. These are trained professionals, not some joe-blow consumer woken in the middle of the night with a phone burning on their night stand and standing their dumbfounded wondering what to do about it.

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

The article says the plane "vanished."  How do they have flight recorder data?

ericthehalfbee

randominternetperson said:

ericthehalfbee said:

I'm not buying this excuse that an iPhone or iPad was responsible. Based on the flight recorder data they knew there was a fire in/near the cockpit with actual sensors showing smoke (fire) in the toilet behind the cockpit, in the avionics bay (under the floor of the cockpit) and in the cockpit itself

Not sure how a possible iPhone/iPad catching fire in the cockpit would somehow cause fires to appear in two different locations, especially the avionics bay which is fairly well protected.

The source article claims they are going to procure several iPhones and iPads (new and used) of the exact same type the copilot had to test them. Not sure how they plan on testing them, since fires are very rare with iOS devices and they're not going to be able to replicate a fire with a handful of devices. And how can you plug an iOS device into "the wrong socket"? Do these planes have USB ports in the cockpit? Or maybe AC outlets you can plug a charger or other accessory into? These should be protected with fuses or similar.

And even if an iPhone/iPad caught fire, I find it hard to believe the flight crew couldn't extinguish it. These are trained professionals, not some joe-blow consumer woken in the middle of the night with a phone burning on their night stand and standing their dumbfounded wondering what to do about it.

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

The article says the plane "vanished."  How do they have flight recorder data?

They recovered both the flight data and cockpit voice recorders. Along with lots of wreckage. The plane only "vanished" from radar, it didn't disappear off the face of the planet.

randominternetperson

ericthehalfbee said:

randominternetperson said:

ericthehalfbee said:

I'm not buying this excuse that an iPhone or iPad was responsible. Based on the flight recorder data they knew there was a fire in/near the cockpit with actual sensors showing smoke (fire) in the toilet behind the cockpit, in the avionics bay (under the floor of the cockpit) and in the cockpit itself

Not sure how a possible iPhone/iPad catching fire in the cockpit would somehow cause fires to appear in two different locations, especially the avionics bay which is fairly well protected.

The source article claims they are going to procure several iPhones and iPads (new and used) of the exact same type the copilot had to test them. Not sure how they plan on testing them, since fires are very rare with iOS devices and they're not going to be able to replicate a fire with a handful of devices. And how can you plug an iOS device into "the wrong socket"? Do these planes have USB ports in the cockpit? Or maybe AC outlets you can plug a charger or other accessory into? These should be protected with fuses or similar.

And even if an iPhone/iPad caught fire, I find it hard to believe the flight crew couldn't extinguish it. These are trained professionals, not some joe-blow consumer woken in the middle of the night with a phone burning on their night stand and standing their dumbfounded wondering what to do about it.

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

The article says the plane "vanished."  How do they have flight recorder data?

They recovered both the flight data and cockpit voice recorders. Along with lots of wreckage. The plane only "vanished" from radar, it didn't disappear off the face of the planet.

Thanks.  That's not the impression I got from the article.  Although I suppose it would be hard to lose a plane in the Med (as opposed the Pacific).

randominternetperson

ericthehalfbee said:

randominternetperson said:

ericthehalfbee said:

I'm not buying this excuse that an iPhone or iPad was responsible. Based on the flight recorder data they knew there was a fire in/near the cockpit with actual sensors showing smoke (fire) in the toilet behind the cockpit, in the avionics bay (under the floor of the cockpit) and in the cockpit itself

Not sure how a possible iPhone/iPad catching fire in the cockpit would somehow cause fires to appear in two different locations, especially the avionics bay which is fairly well protected.

The source article claims they are going to procure several iPhones and iPads (new and used) of the exact same type the copilot had to test them. Not sure how they plan on testing them, since fires are very rare with iOS devices and they're not going to be able to replicate a fire with a handful of devices. And how can you plug an iOS device into "the wrong socket"? Do these planes have USB ports in the cockpit? Or maybe AC outlets you can plug a charger or other accessory into? These should be protected with fuses or similar.

And even if an iPhone/iPad caught fire, I find it hard to believe the flight crew couldn't extinguish it. These are trained professionals, not some joe-blow consumer woken in the middle of the night with a phone burning on their night stand and standing their dumbfounded wondering what to do about it.

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

The article says the plane "vanished."  How do they have flight recorder data?

They recovered both the flight data and cockpit voice recorders. Along with lots of wreckage. The plane only "vanished" from radar, it didn't disappear off the face of the planet.

Seems like the VDR should clear this up.  Is anyone heard saying "oh bother, my iPad has burst into flames!"  Perhaps they did and that's what led to this (weird) line of investigation.

yvly

If an iPhone being charged in the WRONG SOCKET can BRING DOWN a plane, I won't be flying anymore.

boltsfan17

ericthehalfbee said:

I'm not buying this excuse that an iPhone or iPad was responsible. Based on the flight recorder data they knew there was a fire in/near the cockpit with actual sensors showing smoke (fire) in the toilet behind the cockpit, in the avionics bay (under the floor of the cockpit) and in the cockpit itself

Not sure how a possible iPhone/iPad catching fire in the cockpit would somehow cause fires to appear in two different locations, especially the avionics bay which is fairly well protected.

The source article claims they are going to procure several iPhones and iPads (new and used) of the exact same type the copilot had to test them. Not sure how they plan on testing them, since fires are very rare with iOS devices and they're not going to be able to replicate a fire with a handful of devices. And how can you plug an iOS device into "the wrong socket"? Do these planes have USB ports in the cockpit? Or maybe AC outlets you can plug a charger or other accessory into? These should be protected with fuses or similar.

And even if an iPhone/iPad caught fire, I find it hard to believe the flight crew couldn't extinguish it. These are trained professionals, not some joe-blow consumer woken in the middle of the night with a phone burning on their night stand and standing their dumbfounded wondering what to do about it.

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

It actually is very possible a fire started in the cockpit by the pilot charging an iOS device on the USB port. Cockpits do have USB ports. The reason being is they are used to update flight management data systems and navigational databases. They technically aren't there for charging devices, but obviously you can by the way USB ports are designed. In my opinion, I think the most plausible explanation is there could have been a short circuit from the USB port being overloaded and it caused a fire in the avionics bay. That is probably why the black box recorded smoke in both the cockpit and bathroom. It makes you wonder if the co pilot was using a cheap aftermarket lightning cable. 

anton zuykov

saltyzip said:

Don't iPhone and iPad use same charging cable and power output. Seems dumb  they have specific ports for each device in a plane.

iPad allows for more amperage when charging. Power bricks for iPhone and iPad both have 5V, but they are 5W (1A) and 12W(2.4A) respectively and both are cross-compatible with all apple devices according to Apple. So, AFAI understand, it is the device that controls the amperage, not the power brick (which only probably limits the max amperage). So, how exactly an airplane installed 5V USB socket could fry/overcharge a device, assuming it was designed to spec and assuming the battery was not from 3rd party?

edited May 2017

danieleran

This is a French investigation into a hypothesis, conducted after an earlier Egyptian investigation determined the place was blown up by a bomb.

Isis claimed it placed a bomb on the plane, which took off from Egypt, and "Egyptian authorities said explosive residue had been found on some of the victims."

http://www.businessinsider.com/explosives-traces-found-on-victims-of-crashed-egyptair-flight-2016-12

That is sort of material to the report. 

Also, Apple's statement to BI:

"We haven't been contacted by [Air Transport Gendarmerie] or any authority investigating this tragic event. We have not seen any report, but we understand there is no evidence to link this event to Apple products. If investigators have questions for us, we would, of course, assist in any way we can. We rigorously test our products to ensure they meet or exceed international safety standards."

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/french-investigators-think-apple-iphone-153313900.html?.tsrc=applewf

elijahg

It would be pretty difficult for a 10w supply to cause a fire that spread as quickly as the one on the aircraft did. As reported before, the avionics bay has halon extinguishers, which would easily overcome a small fire such as one caused by electronics. The main power systems on aircraft run at 110vAC, and that's stepped down to DC via transformers. This would be stepped down further to the 5v needed for USB. Each stage would be fused, and the switchmode power supply used for the 5v stepdown would have built-in current limiting; making a fire even less likely.

anton zuykov

elijahg said:

It would be pretty difficult for a 10w supply to cause a fire that spread as quickly as the one on the aircraft did. As reported before, the avionics bay has halon extinguishers, which would easily overcome a small fire such as one caused by electronics

Avionics bay sits below the flight deck, though, hence, an iPhone/iPad would not be part of the avionics bay in any way. Do they imply that the phone has caused one of the units in the bay to overheat and catch fire?

elijahg

anton zuykov said:

elijahg said:

It would be pretty difficult for a 10w supply to cause a fire that spread as quickly as the one on the aircraft did. As reported before, the avionics bay has halon extinguishers, which would easily overcome a small fire such as one caused by electronics

Avionics bay sits below the flight deck, though, hence, an iPhone/iPad would not be part of the avionics bay in any way. Do they imply that the phone has caused one of the units in the bay to overheat and catch fire?

Exactly, its almost impossible. The only possible way I can see is if the SMPS somehow overheated, maybe due to too much current and incorrect (or broken) current-limiting. But thing is, iOS devices won't draw more than 500mA without the correct voltages presented on the D+/D- pins, and you'd be even more hard pressed to get any sort of fire out of a 2.5w supply. That said, the supply to the SMPS would likely be more. In any case, the SMPS for the USB ports would likely be on the pilot console, since the voltage drop would be significant in the distance between the avionics bay and console.

ericthehalfbee

boltsfan17 said:

ericthehalfbee said:

I'm not buying this excuse that an iPhone or iPad was responsible. Based on the flight recorder data they knew there was a fire in/near the cockpit with actual sensors showing smoke (fire) in the toilet behind the cockpit, in the avionics bay (under the floor of the cockpit) and in the cockpit itself

Not sure how a possible iPhone/iPad catching fire in the cockpit would somehow cause fires to appear in two different locations, especially the avionics bay which is fairly well protected.

The source article claims they are going to procure several iPhones and iPads (new and used) of the exact same type the copilot had to test them. Not sure how they plan on testing them, since fires are very rare with iOS devices and they're not going to be able to replicate a fire with a handful of devices. And how can you plug an iOS device into "the wrong socket"? Do these planes have USB ports in the cockpit? Or maybe AC outlets you can plug a charger or other accessory into? These should be protected with fuses or similar.

And even if an iPhone/iPad caught fire, I find it hard to believe the flight crew couldn't extinguish it. These are trained professionals, not some joe-blow consumer woken in the middle of the night with a phone burning on their night stand and standing their dumbfounded wondering what to do about it.

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

In my opinion, I think the most plausible explanation is there could have been a short circuit from the USB port being overloaded and it caused a fire in the avionics bay. That is probably why the black box recorded smoke in both the cockpit and bathroom. It makes you wonder if the co pilot was using a cheap aftermarket lightning cable. 

Highly doubt it. I refuse to believe any aircraft manufacturer would install a USB socket in such a way that a short at one end could somehow cause an overload and fire at another end. There would have be some form of protection installed.

anton zuykov

ericthehalfbee said:

boltsfan17 said:

ericthehalfbee said:

I'm not buying this excuse that an iPhone or iPad was responsible. Based on the flight recorder data they knew there was a fire in/near the cockpit with actual sensors showing smoke (fire) in the toilet behind the cockpit, in the avionics bay (under the floor of the cockpit) and in the cockpit itself

Not sure how a possible iPhone/iPad catching fire in the cockpit would somehow cause fires to appear in two different locations, especially the avionics bay which is fairly well protected.

The source article claims they are going to procure several iPhones and iPads (new and used) of the exact same type the copilot had to test them. Not sure how they plan on testing them, since fires are very rare with iOS devices and they're not going to be able to replicate a fire with a handful of devices. And how can you plug an iOS device into "the wrong socket"? Do these planes have USB ports in the cockpit? Or maybe AC outlets you can plug a charger or other accessory into? These should be protected with fuses or similar.

And even if an iPhone/iPad caught fire, I find it hard to believe the flight crew couldn't extinguish it. These are trained professionals, not some joe-blow consumer woken in the middle of the night with a phone burning on their night stand and standing their dumbfounded wondering what to do about it.

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

In my opinion, I think the most plausible explanation is there could have been a short circuit from the USB port being overloaded and it caused a fire in the avionics bay. That is probably why the black box recorded smoke in both the cockpit and bathroom. It makes you wonder if the co pilot was using a cheap aftermarket lightning cable. 

Highly doubt it. I refuse to believe any aircraft manufacturer would install a USB socket in such a way that a short at one end could somehow cause an overload and fire at another end. There would have be some form of protection installed.

While it is technically possible, usually there are very strict rules of how things are designed/manufactured/assembled/soldered/installed if they go in an airplane....unless someone installed some cheap-ass USB connectors that were not supposed to be installed there...but I still doubt that.

edited May 2017

dewme

None of the statements about "wrong socket" make any sense whatsoever unless the aircraft was equipped with standard USB ports that were connected to non-USB standard voltages, e.g., 12 VDC or any AC voltage instead of the standard 5 VDC. If you connect an iPad to an underrated power source it will simply charge more slowly (even though the iPad will show "Not Charging." If you connect an iPad to an overrated power source it will only charge as fast as the device charging circuitry allows. This is the case when charging an iPhone using an iPad charger. Charging current is demand based and controlled by the device, not the power source. Of course this always assumes the power source voltage is always within the specification expected by the charging circuitry, which is the USB specification in the iPhone and iPad cases. No sane equipment designer would put a USB port in a piece of equipment that deviated from the 5 VDC USB standard.

mknelson

Likely the cockpit power adapters would have been something like this https://www.truebluepowerusa.com/ta202/

It would have "vanished" from radar if it broke up or otherwise lost power to the transponder and was also out of range of primary radar.

kenc

Hard to imagine how thermal runaway would be possible. But assuming the lithium batteries were indeed in thermal runaway, then halon would extinguish the fire, but it wouldn't be particularly effective at cooling and stopping the thermal runaway, according to tests.