Review: Apple's 2017 10.5" iPad Pro stuns with 120Hz ProMotion display

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 97
    nhughes said:

    Rayz2016 said:
    nhughes said:
    nhughes said:
    Lol.
    Interesting the bizarre disparity of opinion...

    I read this blurb on 9to5:
    “The new iPad Pro, however, concedes nothing to price. It’s an all-in product that cuts no corners”

    Buuuuut, on this site:

    “with a $649 starting price, Apple cuts just a few too many corners for our liking”

    I own one & love it (though, I’m straining to try to see the display differences that these reviewers call “obvious”).... so I was REALLY curious what corners they felt were cut- after reading like 30 paragraphs of praise, I finally came across the note that they thought Apple should’ve included the faster charger. 
    Thats the “few too many corners” AI is talking about I guess.

    sheesh..... talk about nit-picking!
    You left out the parts where I note that the $650 entry price is $150 more than the new flagship iPad cost for years. Or where I say the $329 iPad offers more value to consumers (a product we rated higher at 4.5/5 stars). Or where I said that to get the most out of this iPad you would have to spend closer to $981. Or where I say that Smart Connector support is lacking and Apple should push third parties to create more options, since only Logitech is making devices for it. 

    4 out of 5 is an excellent score for an excellent product. But there are clear, simple ways Apple could improve the product without the need for a theoretical A11X chip or 16MP camera or iOS 12. Hence the score, and the comment about cut corners. 
    None of your points, except the charger, seem to fit the definition of a cut corner.

    A higher price is not a corner cut. 

    The fact another product offers better value is not a corner cut.

    Separetly priced accessories, which are needed only by a portion of the market, is not a corner cut.

    Lack of third-party support for the Smart connector is not a corner cut.  The smart connector still does what it does, offers the capability it was designed to offer, regardless of whether many third parties have taken advantage of it.  If in six months a pile of third parties have created accessories that connect to it, will you say that Apple has now tacked that corner back on, when the functionality of the connector has not changed at all?  Makes no sense to call this a cut corner. 
    Call them whatever you want -- cut corners, shortcomings, flaws, etc. We're focusing on one phrase used in one paragraph of a lengthy (and by the way, extremely positive) review. 

    I wanted to get across in the opening paragraph that there were simple things Apple could have done to improve the product out of the box. The lede serves to summarize the piece in a simple and concise way. Obviously when you boil thousands of words down into two sentences, some meaning is lost. 

    If issue is taken with my use of the words "cut corners," so be it. I was just attempting to explain that the $650 price is steep, and many customers will be equally served by the $330 iPad. 

    It's not really a question of 'taking an issue' though, is it? Your use of the phrase 'cut corner' is clearly wrong. I don't think anyone is saying that these issues shouldn't be highlighted; what folk are saying is that they should be described correctly. 

    I read the article twice and came away thinking, 'So where the hell were all these cut corners then?'

    The lack of third party support for the smart connect is not a cut corner.
    A hike in price is not a cut corner. 
    The only thing mentioned here that could be described as a cut corner is the low power charger, which as shortcomings go gets a 'meh, whatever' from me.

    Accuracy is important, whether you're a blogger or a journalist. A few folk here feel the same way, which is why they pointed this out. 





    Thanks. The input is genuinely appreciated. I will concede that, in hindsight, I could have used a better figure of speech to summarize my feelings about the product in the opening paragraph. That said, I stand by the content of the review, and take issue with your suggestion that it is lacking in "accuracy." Taking a complex, lengthy take on a product and boiling it down to a headline or single tl;dr paragraph is difficult. We do the best we can, but obviously some efforts will be better than others. I hope that a prospective buyer -- one who maybe doesn't have the time/patience  to read the full review -- at least sees the opening paragraphs and gets a good feel for my sentiment on this product and its strengths and shortcomings. I maintain that most buyers will be well served by the $330 iPad for years to come. 
    As the op that first noticed & pointed out the confusing turn of this phrase- I’d have to give you kudos for acknowledging weakness in that particular phrasing.
    Fwiw, I don’t take umbrage to ANY other part of your review, nor find any other part inaccurate... w/ the caveat that: if you make one statement that is quite clearly incorrect, it can cause some to immediately disregard the entirety. 
    williamlondonfirelock
  • Reply 62 of 97
    melgross said:
    I'm pretty sure it's 256. In the old days, all we had with Wacom was 256. Guess what? It worked. Personally, I think anything over 1024 is just marketing. There's no evidence that it's visible on any media.
    There's no reason for Apple to have all the hardware inside the Pencil and the iPad Pro itself to generate 256 levels of pressure sensitivity. They've just chosen not to release a number. Like I said, standard bluetooth stylus for the regular iPad that didn't really have much in the way of specialized hardware were advertising 2,048 levels long before the Pencil released.
  • Reply 63 of 97
    krawallkrawall Posts: 156member
    I also have to say it's really sweet. I got mine a few days after launch, and it's a tremendous improvement. Web-browsing is much better because of the increased RAM (using the back button is mostly instant).  I'm using my iPad as a glorified e-reader, and at times when I'm without laptop, I use it as a laptop replacement (office suite, email, etc)

    The new bezels are great and size wise it feels much like the 9.7inch one. I got the keyboard with it and it types much much better than the old one because the keys are a bit further apart. 

    But that smooth scrolling.. I'm a sucker for that fluidity... swiping, scrolling, task switching is just so smooth it's pure fun to use.
  • Reply 64 of 97
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 3,870member
    macxpress said:
    Would you be able to recommend the best third party fast charge brick/cord for this new iPad?
    I strongly recommend you DO NOT get ANY 3rd party charger unless you want to risk damaging your device, possibly yourself.  Every single time we see a battery issue or a charging issue its always from a 3rd party charger. Spend the money and get an Apple charger. If you're going to spend $650 on this, what the hell is another $20-30?
    As soon as I can figure out how to plug that Apple Charger into my car I'll do that...
  • Reply 65 of 97
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,830member
    As Soli mentioned, I think it is ludicrous that Apple's "Pro" iPad (and top phone model!) will not connect or charge out of the box to its "Pro" laptop.  This, from a company that has a history and reputation for aggressively adopting (or dropping) I/O standards. 

    Having just bought a MacBook Pro, I won't replace my original retina iPad until it has USB-C. 

     Apple, please get your laptop and iOS hardware teams together and sort this out!!
    There's nothing to sort out. Get the cable you need:

    https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MK0X2AM/A/usb-c-to-lightning-cable-1-m

    ...thank me later. 
    And this doesn't come in the box because?
    Because not everybody needs it? Most people don't have USBC. When that changes I'm sure it will.

    But yes, yes, we know you expect everything to match every possible use case at all times. That's how you would run the company, right?
    tycho_macuser
  • Reply 66 of 97
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,830member

    nhughes said:
    nhughes said:
    Lol.
    Interesting the bizarre disparity of opinion...

    I read this blurb on 9to5:
    “The new iPad Pro, however, concedes nothing to price. It’s an all-in product that cuts no corners”

    Buuuuut, on this site:

    “with a $649 starting price, Apple cuts just a few too many corners for our liking”

    I own one & love it (though, I’m straining to try to see the display differences that these reviewers call “obvious”).... so I was REALLY curious what corners they felt were cut- after reading like 30 paragraphs of praise, I finally came across the note that they thought Apple should’ve included the faster charger. 
    Thats the “few too many corners” AI is talking about I guess.

    sheesh..... talk about nit-picking!
    You left out the parts where I note that the $650 entry price is $150 more than the new flagship iPad cost for years. Or where I say the $329 iPad offers more value to consumers (a product we rated higher at 4.5/5 stars). Or where I said that to get the most out of this iPad you would have to spend closer to $981. Or where I say that Smart Connector support is lacking and Apple should push third parties to create more options, since only Logitech is making devices for it. 
    "To get the most out of you would have to spend..." That statement doesn't really make sense. I assume you're referring to keyboard and pencil, which are purely optional. As in, options. As in, not everybody needs or wants. To "get the most out of" any computer you can spend 1000s extra on accessories, but you've never suggested adding the cost of a Wacom tablet to a PC, have you? Same thing. Doesn't make sense. I plan on getting the Pro, but will not be getting all the accessories.

    The Pro is $150 more than last year's normal iPad, and with that comes high-end features like 1) 64gb storage, 2) TrueTone display, 3) 120Hz refresh rate, 3) brighter screen, 4) P3 color gamut, 5) faster processor, etc.. In short -- you get stuff. Is the stuff you get worth the "$150 more" than the old flagship cost? That depends on your budget of course, but I certainly think so, especially since it's less than my iPhone and is going to last me a lot longer.

    Cheaper than iPhone. Lasts longer. More stuff than ever. Come on.
    If you're not interested in the Smart Keyboard or Apple Pencil, you shouldn't buy the iPad Pro. That's kind of the point of my review. The $330 model is a much better option ($430 for 128GB) if you don't plan on tacking on those accessories.
    I would certainly disagree with that! So if I'm not in the graphics arts and in need of a drawing stylus, I "shouldn't" buy the Pro because the iPad Pro is only for graphic artists?! Certainly not! And as for keyboards, one of the main points the reviews and Apple have been saying is the new on-screen keyboard is fullsize on a 10.5" device. Unless you're a writer, I don't know why I'd "need" to have the physical keyboard.

    Man I don't know where you're coming up with this. I think you're confusing *some* use cases for *all* use cases. 
    edited June 2017 tycho_macuser
  • Reply 67 of 97

    nhughes said:
    nhughes said:
    Lol.
    Interesting the bizarre disparity of opinion...

    I read this blurb on 9to5:
    “The new iPad Pro, however, concedes nothing to price. It’s an all-in product that cuts no corners”

    Buuuuut, on this site:

    “with a $649 starting price, Apple cuts just a few too many corners for our liking”

    I own one & love it (though, I’m straining to try to see the display differences that these reviewers call “obvious”).... so I was REALLY curious what corners they felt were cut- after reading like 30 paragraphs of praise, I finally came across the note that they thought Apple should’ve included the faster charger. 
    Thats the “few too many corners” AI is talking about I guess.

    sheesh..... talk about nit-picking!
    You left out the parts where I note that the $650 entry price is $150 more than the new flagship iPad cost for years. Or where I say the $329 iPad offers more value to consumers (a product we rated higher at 4.5/5 stars). Or where I said that to get the most out of this iPad you would have to spend closer to $981. Or where I say that Smart Connector support is lacking and Apple should push third parties to create more options, since only Logitech is making devices for it. 
    "To get the most out of you would have to spend..." That statement doesn't really make sense. I assume you're referring to keyboard and pencil, which are purely optional. As in, options. As in, not everybody needs or wants. To "get the most out of" any computer you can spend 1000s extra on accessories, but you've never suggested adding the cost of a Wacom tablet to a PC, have you? Same thing. Doesn't make sense. I plan on getting the Pro, but will not be getting all the accessories.

    The Pro is $150 more than last year's normal iPad, and with that comes high-end features like 1) 64gb storage, 2) TrueTone display, 3) 120Hz refresh rate, 3) brighter screen, 4) P3 color gamut, 5) faster processor, etc.. In short -- you get stuff. Is the stuff you get worth the "$150 more" than the old flagship cost? That depends on your budget of course, but I certainly think so, especially since it's less than my iPhone and is going to last me a lot longer.

    Cheaper than iPhone. Lasts longer. More stuff than ever. Come on.
    If you're not interested in the Smart Keyboard or Apple Pencil, you shouldn't buy the iPad Pro. That's kind of the point of my review. The $330 model is a much better option ($430 for 128GB) if you don't plan on tacking on those accessories.
    I would certainly disagree with that! So if I'm not in the graphics arts and in need of a drawing stylus, I "shouldn't" buy the Pro because the iPad Pro is only for graphic artists?! Certainly not! And as for keyboards, one of the main points the reviews and Apple have been saying is the new on-screen keyboard is fullsize on a 10.5" device. Unless you're a writer, I don't know why I'd "need" to have the physical keyboard.

    Man I don't know where you're coming up with this. I think you're confusing *some* use cases for *all* use cases. 
    Hear hear!
    I've purchased near every iPad so far (barring two gens of mini, & the iPad 4); and LOVE my new 10.5”.
    I read comic books on iPad & that has got significantly better over the years... this size is marvelous!
    I barely use my mac Mini, save for some light video consumption, background audio, & transferring files to my iPad... my iPad has DEFINITELY become my “main” computer.
    Is the speed of the processor a bit overkill at this point for almost every single use case imaginable? Absolutely. But that’s a good “problem” to have, if it’s your only one!!
    I like a slim case & have ZERO interest in a keyboard case. I used the Apple Pencil w/ my 9.7” Pro last year, but sold it. I tried to use it for simple note jotting, but found it unpleasant. To me, it lacked the friction of a pen/pencil... it felt like what it was: “writing on slippery smooth glass”. Yuck!
    It stuck in my craw a bit that (like you), I was told: “because you don’t want/need/desire the OPTIONAL expensive accessories... it’s not meant for you”.
    Lol, excuse me??
    I can’t have best in class, awesome size, consumer friendly features like true tone, etc. because I don’t like thick keyboard cases??
    Seemed like an uppitty opinion to foist on me!
    edited June 2017
  • Reply 68 of 97
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,549member
    We know the MacBook’s USB-C charger charges the iPad faster, but does using the 13” or 15” MBP charger improve on the changing speed?
  • Reply 69 of 97
    nhughesnhughes Posts: 750editor

    nhughes said:
    nhughes said:
    Lol.
    Interesting the bizarre disparity of opinion...

    I read this blurb on 9to5:
    “The new iPad Pro, however, concedes nothing to price. It’s an all-in product that cuts no corners”

    Buuuuut, on this site:

    “with a $649 starting price, Apple cuts just a few too many corners for our liking”

    I own one & love it (though, I’m straining to try to see the display differences that these reviewers call “obvious”).... so I was REALLY curious what corners they felt were cut- after reading like 30 paragraphs of praise, I finally came across the note that they thought Apple should’ve included the faster charger. 
    Thats the “few too many corners” AI is talking about I guess.

    sheesh..... talk about nit-picking!
    You left out the parts where I note that the $650 entry price is $150 more than the new flagship iPad cost for years. Or where I say the $329 iPad offers more value to consumers (a product we rated higher at 4.5/5 stars). Or where I said that to get the most out of this iPad you would have to spend closer to $981. Or where I say that Smart Connector support is lacking and Apple should push third parties to create more options, since only Logitech is making devices for it. 
    "To get the most out of you would have to spend..." That statement doesn't really make sense. I assume you're referring to keyboard and pencil, which are purely optional. As in, options. As in, not everybody needs or wants. To "get the most out of" any computer you can spend 1000s extra on accessories, but you've never suggested adding the cost of a Wacom tablet to a PC, have you? Same thing. Doesn't make sense. I plan on getting the Pro, but will not be getting all the accessories.

    The Pro is $150 more than last year's normal iPad, and with that comes high-end features like 1) 64gb storage, 2) TrueTone display, 3) 120Hz refresh rate, 3) brighter screen, 4) P3 color gamut, 5) faster processor, etc.. In short -- you get stuff. Is the stuff you get worth the "$150 more" than the old flagship cost? That depends on your budget of course, but I certainly think so, especially since it's less than my iPhone and is going to last me a lot longer.

    Cheaper than iPhone. Lasts longer. More stuff than ever. Come on.
    If you're not interested in the Smart Keyboard or Apple Pencil, you shouldn't buy the iPad Pro. That's kind of the point of my review. The $330 model is a much better option ($430 for 128GB) if you don't plan on tacking on those accessories.
    I would certainly disagree with that! So if I'm not in the graphics arts and in need of a drawing stylus, I "shouldn't" buy the Pro because the iPad Pro is only for graphic artists?! Certainly not! And as for keyboards, one of the main points the reviews and Apple have been saying is the new on-screen keyboard is fullsize on a 10.5" device. Unless you're a writer, I don't know why I'd "need" to have the physical keyboard.

    Man I don't know where you're coming up with this. I think you're confusing *some* use cases for *all* use cases. 
    Glad that you see a need for the horsepower and form factor of the 10.5" iPad Pro and the device suits your needs. Obviously everyone's use case is different. I stand by my assertion that most consumers looking for a tablet who do not intend to buy an Apple Pencil or Smart Keyboard would be better served by the $330 iPad.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 70 of 97
    Soli said:
    My biggest concern regarding price has nothing to do with Apple but concerns the strength of the U.S. dollar compared to international currencies. For instance, comparing the three Wi-Fi 10.5 inch and 12.9 inch storage tiers for the U.S. and Canada without accessories:

    10.5 inch U.S.: $649, $749, $949
    10.5 inch CAN: $869, $999, $1259

    12.9 inch U.S.: $799, $899, $1099
    12.9 inch CAN: $1049, $1179, $1439

    On average, that's a north of 30% increase.
    If you convert the currency the pricing is fair.

    10.5": $657.39, $755.73, $952.48, which is slightly more than the US price.
    12.9": $793.555, $891.89, $1,088.59, which is slightly less than the US price.
    The pricing relative to the exchange rate may be fair, but for Canadians it is still a price hike. As a result of the exchange rate Canadians are paying approx. 30% more than they otherwise would pay if the Canadian dollar (CAD) was at parity with the U.S. dollar (USD). The last time there was parity was over four years ago. Four years ago an iPad priced at $1,000.00 USD would have cost $1,000.00 CAD. Today that same iPad would cost $1,320.00 CAD given a USD/CAD exchange rate of 1.32. In the intervening four years real wages, that is wages adjusted for inflation, have remained flat. So, the increase in cost is real. Compress the time and look at it like this, if yesterday the Canadian dollar was at parity with the U.S dollar, both Americans and Canadians would pay the same in their respective currencies, $1,000.00 for that iPad. If today the USD surged in strength and appreciated so that USD/CAD exchange rate became 1.32, Canadians would pay $1,320.00 today for the same imported product they paid $1,000.00 for yesterday. That is a 32% price hike. This assumes that Apple adjusted the price to reflect the change in exchange rate (which of course they would not do over the short term). When a domestic currency depreciates against a trading partner's, imports become more expensive independent of income; the purchasing power of consumers declines.

    This isn't just a problem for Canadian consumers, it's also a problem for Apple. A strong U.S. dollar has negative impact on Apple's revenue from international business, which is over 60%. Consumers are less likely to buy when domestically prices are higher for imported goods. Added to that is that Apple prefers to adjust local pricing at the time of new product launches, which lag against movements in currencies. Apple eats the revenue loss and reduced margins until local pricing is realigned to reflect the change in exchange rate. Foreign exchange headwinds makes it challenging for Apple to increase its revenue from international sources despite the employment of financial instruments to hedge against such risk.
    edited June 2017
  • Reply 71 of 97
    The following isn't really the Apple way, but if the new connection is so much faster/nicer, could they have a temporary solution with a two headed cable in the Pro?

    The cable would have the "iPad end", and then the "USB-A and USB-C" end?

    Then the single charger they supply has both inputs in it.

    Theoretically one could use the cable either to the wall (fast or slow charging), or to a new Macbook Pro (fast)  ?

    Apple cables are so well made the two-headed part could be really small,  Just an inch or two.
  • Reply 72 of 97
    MacPro said:
    Excellent article I see a few others mention 'getting the wife... for her birthday' like I was thinking,  seems from this article, for non-expert user as she is (Netflix, web and mail only) the $329 model is a steal!
    This is exactly what we did. 

    My wife had shared one of the kids mini's up until now.  Hardest part was going to find it whereever it was when she wanted to use it.

    BDay/Mother's Day vision was "yours" as much as "bigger/nicer."  (she appreciates both aspects).

    At $329, plus smart-cover (front-only, magnets, nice), it feels like we stole it.  Can't BELIEVE the value.
  • Reply 73 of 97
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,549member
    The following isn't really the Apple way, but if the new connection is so much faster/nicer, could they have a temporary solution with a two headed cable in the Pro?

    The cable would have the "iPad end", and then the "USB-A and USB-C" end?

    Then the single charger they supply has both inputs in it.

    Theoretically one could use the cable either to the wall (fast or slow charging), or to a new Macbook Pro (fast)  ?

    Apple cables are so well made the two-headed part could be really small,  Just an inch or two.
    I doubt we'll see a Lightning cable with a built in USB hub with it splitting to support USB-C and USB-A on the same cable. What they've done in the past when the iPod was transitioning form Mac-only to support WinPCs (circa 2003) was to offer a FW400 wall charger and FW400 (to  30-pin dock connector) cable for charging for Win computers and then an additional USB-A (to 30-pin dock connector) cable for syncing data for WinPCs. Eventually they dropped the FW400 cable and started using a PSU with a USB-A port, but why did they do this at all if Macs were already using USB? The answer is the version of USB was still at 1.x for most vendors. This means that you can't charge via USB so they had to use the FW able and PSU for charging, and with Macs, even the ones that did have USB 2.0, FW400 would charge and sync faster.

    THis was also back when Apple would include plenty of dongles with a new Mac purchase. I know many here wish Apple would still do that, but I hated these unused adapters being added to the cost of every machine and just sitting in a drawer or the box never getting used.

    So what will Apple do going forward? Well we know they're OK with a Lighting-to-3.5mm adapter with the iPhone, even when shipping Lightning EarPods, so it's tough say as everything is up in the air.
  • Reply 74 of 97
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,381member
    melgross said:
    I'm pretty sure it's 256. In the old days, all we had with Wacom was 256. Guess what? It worked. Personally, I think anything over 1024 is just marketing. There's no evidence that it's visible on any media.
    There's no reason for Apple to have all the hardware inside the Pencil and the iPad Pro itself to generate 256 levels of pressure sensitivity. They've just chosen not to release a number. Like I said, standard bluetooth stylus for the regular iPad that didn't really have much in the way of specialized hardware were advertising 2,048 levels long before the Pencil released.
    When it first came out, it was mentioned it was 256. If someone has evidence that's wrong, I'd like to see it.
  • Reply 75 of 97
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,381member

    Soli said:
    My biggest concern regarding price has nothing to do with Apple but concerns the strength of the U.S. dollar compared to international currencies. For instance, comparing the three Wi-Fi 10.5 inch and 12.9 inch storage tiers for the U.S. and Canada without accessories:

    10.5 inch U.S.: $649, $749, $949
    10.5 inch CAN: $869, $999, $1259

    12.9 inch U.S.: $799, $899, $1099
    12.9 inch CAN: $1049, $1179, $1439

    On average, that's a north of 30% increase.
    If you convert the currency the pricing is fair.

    10.5": $657.39, $755.73, $952.48, which is slightly more than the US price.
    12.9": $793.555, $891.89, $1,088.59, which is slightly less than the US price.
    The pricing relative to the exchange rate may be fair, but for Canadians it is still a price hike. As a result of the exchange rate Canadians are paying approx. 30% more than they otherwise would pay if the Canadian dollar (CAD) was at parity with the U.S. dollar (USD). The last time there was parity was over four years ago. Four years ago an iPad priced at $1,000.00 USD would have cost $1,000.00 CAD. Today that same iPad would cost $1,320.00 CAD given a USD/CAD exchange rate of 1.32. In the intervening four years real wages, that is wages adjusted for inflation, have remained flat. So, the increase in cost is real. Compress the time and look at it like this, if yesterday the Canadian dollar was at parity with the U.S dollar, both Americans and Canadians would pay the same in their respective currencies, $1,000.00 for that iPad. If today the USD surged in strength and appreciated so that USD/CAD exchange rate became 1.32, Canadians would pay $1,320.00 today for the same imported product they paid $1,000.00 for yesterday. That is a 32% price hike. This assumes that Apple adjusted the price to reflect the change in exchange rate (which of course they would not do over the short term). When a domestic currency depreciates against a trading partner's, imports become more expensive independent of income; the purchasing power of consumers declines.

    This isn't just a problem for Canadian consumers, it's also a problem for Apple. A strong U.S. dollar has negative impact on Apple's revenue from international business, which is over 60%. Consumers are less likely to buy when domestically prices are higher for imported goods. Added to that is that Apple prefers to adjust local pricing at the time of new product launches, which lag against movements in currencies. Apple eats the revenue loss and reduced margins until local pricing is realigned to reflect the change in exchange rate. Foreign exchange headwinds makes it challenging for Apple to increase its revenue from international sources despite the employment of financial instruments to hedge against such risk.
    I'm not sure I understand what you think Apple should do about this. The value of a currency is do to the strength of the economy of that country when compared to others. As the Canadian economy is apparently weak, the currency is valued less. Also the Canadian government, in order to push exports up, may be working to lower the value of the currency.

    none of this is Apple fault, and the responsibility to maintain the same relative pricing is their fiduciary duty. If Apple did what you wanted, they would lose money on every sale. I would hope they don't do that, even if total sales there go down. Some companies hold prices until they either just break even, or if they're really concerned about marketshare, even lose money. That's just bad business, and a reason why many companies have problems.
  • Reply 76 of 97
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    melgross said:

    Soli said:
    My biggest concern regarding price has nothing to do with Apple but concerns the strength of the U.S. dollar compared to international currencies. For instance, comparing the three Wi-Fi 10.5 inch and 12.9 inch storage tiers for the U.S. and Canada without accessories:

    10.5 inch U.S.: $649, $749, $949
    10.5 inch CAN: $869, $999, $1259

    12.9 inch U.S.: $799, $899, $1099
    12.9 inch CAN: $1049, $1179, $1439

    On average, that's a north of 30% increase.
    If you convert the currency the pricing is fair.

    10.5": $657.39, $755.73, $952.48, which is slightly more than the US price.
    12.9": $793.555, $891.89, $1,088.59, which is slightly less than the US price.
    The pricing relative to the exchange rate may be fair, but for Canadians it is still a price hike. As a result of the exchange rate Canadians are paying approx. 30% more than they otherwise would pay if the Canadian dollar (CAD) was at parity with the U.S. dollar (USD). The last time there was parity was over four years ago. Four years ago an iPad priced at $1,000.00 USD would have cost $1,000.00 CAD. Today that same iPad would cost $1,320.00 CAD given a USD/CAD exchange rate of 1.32. In the intervening four years real wages, that is wages adjusted for inflation, have remained flat. So, the increase in cost is real. Compress the time and look at it like this, if yesterday the Canadian dollar was at parity with the U.S dollar, both Americans and Canadians would pay the same in their respective currencies, $1,000.00 for that iPad. If today the USD surged in strength and appreciated so that USD/CAD exchange rate became 1.32, Canadians would pay $1,320.00 today for the same imported product they paid $1,000.00 for yesterday. That is a 32% price hike. This assumes that Apple adjusted the price to reflect the change in exchange rate (which of course they would not do over the short term). When a domestic currency depreciates against a trading partner's, imports become more expensive independent of income; the purchasing power of consumers declines.

    This isn't just a problem for Canadian consumers, it's also a problem for Apple. A strong U.S. dollar has negative impact on Apple's revenue from international business, which is over 60%. Consumers are less likely to buy when domestically prices are higher for imported goods. Added to that is that Apple prefers to adjust local pricing at the time of new product launches, which lag against movements in currencies. Apple eats the revenue loss and reduced margins until local pricing is realigned to reflect the change in exchange rate. Foreign exchange headwinds makes it challenging for Apple to increase its revenue from international sources despite the employment of financial instruments to hedge against such risk.
    I'm not sure I understand what you think Apple should do about this. The value of a currency is do to the strength of the economy of that country when compared to others. As the Canadian economy is apparently weak, the currency is valued less. Also the Canadian government, in order to push exports up, may be working to lower the value of the currency.

    none of this is Apple fault, and the responsibility to maintain the same relative pricing is their fiduciary duty. If Apple did what you wanted, they would lose money on every sale. I would hope they don't do that, even if total sales there go down. Some companies hold prices until they either just break even, or if they're really concerned about marketshare, even lose money. That's just bad business, and a reason why many companies have problems.
    The Canadian economy is not weak, in fact it is relatively going well compared to the US considering the 2008 recession was a lot milder and we recovered quicker, it's just that resource prices have an inordinate effect on our currency (not sure why since resources are not that great a part of the canadian economy). It fell off a about 4 years ago and the dollar went back to its pre-2007 price.

    The dollar has been stuck in the $0.75-$1 range for most of the last 40 years. In the 1970s it was higher than the US dollar, in the 1980s to mid 90s, about $0.85, because of debt issues and low oil pricing, it fell at its minimum around 2000 at about $0.63, but from $2003 it went constantly up to $1 in 2013.
    edited June 2017
  • Reply 77 of 97
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 3,870member

    nhughes said:
    nhughes said:
    Lol.
    Interesting the bizarre disparity of opinion...

    I read this blurb on 9to5:
    “The new iPad Pro, however, concedes nothing to price. It’s an all-in product that cuts no corners”

    Buuuuut, on this site:

    “with a $649 starting price, Apple cuts just a few too many corners for our liking”

    I own one & love it (though, I’m straining to try to see the display differences that these reviewers call “obvious”).... so I was REALLY curious what corners they felt were cut- after reading like 30 paragraphs of praise, I finally came across the note that they thought Apple should’ve included the faster charger. 
    Thats the “few too many corners” AI is talking about I guess.

    sheesh..... talk about nit-picking!
    You left out the parts where I note that the $650 entry price is $150 more than the new flagship iPad cost for years. Or where I say the $329 iPad offers more value to consumers (a product we rated higher at 4.5/5 stars). Or where I said that to get the most out of this iPad you would have to spend closer to $981. Or where I say that Smart Connector support is lacking and Apple should push third parties to create more options, since only Logitech is making devices for it. 
    "To get the most out of you would have to spend..." That statement doesn't really make sense. I assume you're referring to keyboard and pencil, which are purely optional. As in, options. As in, not everybody needs or wants. To "get the most out of" any computer you can spend 1000s extra on accessories, but you've never suggested adding the cost of a Wacom tablet to a PC, have you? Same thing. Doesn't make sense. I plan on getting the Pro, but will not be getting all the accessories.

    The Pro is $150 more than last year's normal iPad, and with that comes high-end features like 1) 64gb storage, 2) TrueTone display, 3) 120Hz refresh rate, 3) brighter screen, 4) P3 color gamut, 5) faster processor, etc.. In short -- you get stuff. Is the stuff you get worth the "$150 more" than the old flagship cost? That depends on your budget of course, but I certainly think so, especially since it's less than my iPhone and is going to last me a lot longer.

    Cheaper than iPhone. Lasts longer. More stuff than ever. Come on.
    If you're not interested in the Smart Keyboard or Apple Pencil, you shouldn't buy the iPad Pro. That's kind of the point of my review. The $330 model is a much better option ($430 for 128GB) if you don't plan on tacking on those accessories.
    I would certainly disagree with that! So if I'm not in the graphics arts and in need of a drawing stylus, I "shouldn't" buy the Pro because the iPad Pro is only for graphic artists?! Certainly not! And as for keyboards, one of the main points the reviews and Apple have been saying is the new on-screen keyboard is fullsize on a 10.5" device. Unless you're a writer, I don't know why I'd "need" to have the physical keyboard.

    Man I don't know where you're coming up with this. I think you're confusing *some* use cases for *all* use cases. 
    You changed his words -- and then argued against your changes!

    He never talked about your profession.   He did say:  "Unless you're going to BUY" the smart keyboard or pencil...  Because, without those, the standard IPad can pretty much do everything the the Pro version can.

    He never said you have to use them all the time in order to buy them.  If you want them, then buy them.   If you don't then you can save money with the standard version of the IPad.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 78 of 97
    melgross said:

    Soli said:
    My biggest concern regarding price has nothing to do with Apple but concerns the strength of the U.S. dollar compared to international currencies. For instance, comparing the three Wi-Fi 10.5 inch and 12.9 inch storage tiers for the U.S. and Canada without accessories:

    10.5 inch U.S.: $649, $749, $949
    10.5 inch CAN: $869, $999, $1259

    12.9 inch U.S.: $799, $899, $1099
    12.9 inch CAN: $1049, $1179, $1439

    On average, that's a north of 30% increase.
    If you convert the currency the pricing is fair.

    10.5": $657.39, $755.73, $952.48, which is slightly more than the US price.
    12.9": $793.555, $891.89, $1,088.59, which is slightly less than the US price.
    The pricing relative to the exchange rate may be fair, but for Canadians it is still a price hike. As a result of the exchange rate Canadians are paying approx. 30% more than they otherwise would pay if the Canadian dollar (CAD) was at parity with the U.S. dollar (USD). The last time there was parity was over four years ago. Four years ago an iPad priced at $1,000.00 USD would have cost $1,000.00 CAD. Today that same iPad would cost $1,320.00 CAD given a USD/CAD exchange rate of 1.32. In the intervening four years real wages, that is wages adjusted for inflation, have remained flat. So, the increase in cost is real. Compress the time and look at it like this, if yesterday the Canadian dollar was at parity with the U.S dollar, both Americans and Canadians would pay the same in their respective currencies, $1,000.00 for that iPad. If today the USD surged in strength and appreciated so that USD/CAD exchange rate became 1.32, Canadians would pay $1,320.00 today for the same imported product they paid $1,000.00 for yesterday. That is a 32% price hike. This assumes that Apple adjusted the price to reflect the change in exchange rate (which of course they would not do over the short term). When a domestic currency depreciates against a trading partner's, imports become more expensive independent of income; the purchasing power of consumers declines.

    This isn't just a problem for Canadian consumers, it's also a problem for Apple. A strong U.S. dollar has negative impact on Apple's revenue from international business, which is over 60%. Consumers are less likely to buy when domestically prices are higher for imported goods. Added to that is that Apple prefers to adjust local pricing at the time of new product launches, which lag against movements in currencies. Apple eats the revenue loss and reduced margins until local pricing is realigned to reflect the change in exchange rate. Foreign exchange headwinds makes it challenging for Apple to increase its revenue from international sources despite the employment of financial instruments to hedge against such risk.
    I'm not sure I understand what you think Apple should do about this. The value of a currency is do to the strength of the economy of that country when compared to others. As the Canadian economy is apparently weak, the currency is valued less. Also the Canadian government, in order to push exports up, may be working to lower the value of the currency.

    none of this is Apple fault, and the responsibility to maintain the same relative pricing is their fiduciary duty. If Apple did what you wanted, they would lose money on every sale. I would hope they don't do that, even if total sales there go down. Some companies hold prices until they either just break even, or if they're really concerned about marketshare, even lose money. That's just bad business, and a reason why many companies have problems.
    I think you either misread or are misinterpreting what I've written in response to the article. I never wrote that it was Apple's fault or their responsibility, nor did I write that Apple should do anything about it. If you read/reread my original post you'll see that I wrote the following:

    "My biggest concern regarding price has nothing to do with Apple..."
    "As a pro device I think the iPad Pro offers great value..."

    If you reread the article you'll note that it took multiple opportunities to complain about the price of the iPad Pro and also question its value:

    "We noted last year in our review of the 9.7-inch iPad Pro that its $599 price tag was high. This year, Apple has increased the cost by another $50."

    "Priced at $649, the new 10.5-inch iPad Pro comes in with a price tag $50 higher than its predecessor. Apple justifies the price hike..."

    "As a consolation for the $649 price tag..."

    "...considering the entry price has gone up again."

    "...the $329 iPad with 9.7-inch Retina display, quite frankly, offers a better value proposition than the 2017 iPad Pro."

    "...especially considering the hefty $649 starting price of the iPad Pro."

    "Our concerns about the price not only remain, but have been amplified."

    "The $599 entry price for the 2016 9.7-inch iPad Pro felt steep, especially when previous iPads had debuted at a $499 price. This year, Apple went in the opposite direction, increasing the base cost to $649."

    Part of my original post was a response to the article's price/value complaints and I state that "the iPad Pro offers great value", and by implication that I'm fine with the price Apple sells it at because it does offer great value and frankly any concerns I have about price have nothing to do with Apple, but with the exchange rate which doesn't add any value to a device, only increases its price. My follow up post was an explanation of the real price impact of the exchange rate which affects both Canadian consumers and Apple.
  • Reply 79 of 97
    melgross said:
    When it first came out, it was mentioned it was 256. If someone has evidence that's wrong, I'd like to see it.
    Apple has never provided a specific number. However, if you follow the first link in this list, it says that the stylus MS had for the Surface Pro 3 (available right around the time the Apple Pencil first came out) was 256, which was actually a downgrade from their previous stylus according to the article.

    http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinions/apple-pencil-vs-wacom-vs-surface-pen-vs-s-pen

    "It also looks like the Apple Pencil will have unmatched sensitivity, with its ability to sense multiple layers of pressure (though Apple doesn’t specify precisely how many), as well as the angle and orientation of the pen."

    http://www.businessinsider.com/people-want-to-know-the-apple-pencils-pressure-sensitivity-2015-11

    "One thing Apple does not market, however, is the pressure sensitivity, a key metric for those who want to get serious about drawing with the Pencil."

    http://www.fantasticmaps.com/2015/12/an-illustrators-review-of-the-ipad-pro-and-apple-pencil/

    "I can’t find published specs on levels of pressure sensitivity of the Apple Pencil – but given the smoothness of the response I’d bet money on at least 1028."
    edited June 2017
  • Reply 80 of 97
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 31,381member
    foggyhill said:
    melgross said:

    Soli said:
    My biggest concern regarding price has nothing to do with Apple but concerns the strength of the U.S. dollar compared to international currencies. For instance, comparing the three Wi-Fi 10.5 inch and 12.9 inch storage tiers for the U.S. and Canada without accessories:

    10.5 inch U.S.: $649, $749, $949
    10.5 inch CAN: $869, $999, $1259

    12.9 inch U.S.: $799, $899, $1099
    12.9 inch CAN: $1049, $1179, $1439

    On average, that's a north of 30% increase.
    If you convert the currency the pricing is fair.

    10.5": $657.39, $755.73, $952.48, which is slightly more than the US price.
    12.9": $793.555, $891.89, $1,088.59, which is slightly less than the US price.
    The pricing relative to the exchange rate may be fair, but for Canadians it is still a price hike. As a result of the exchange rate Canadians are paying approx. 30% more than they otherwise would pay if the Canadian dollar (CAD) was at parity with the U.S. dollar (USD). The last time there was parity was over four years ago. Four years ago an iPad priced at $1,000.00 USD would have cost $1,000.00 CAD. Today that same iPad would cost $1,320.00 CAD given a USD/CAD exchange rate of 1.32. In the intervening four years real wages, that is wages adjusted for inflation, have remained flat. So, the increase in cost is real. Compress the time and look at it like this, if yesterday the Canadian dollar was at parity with the U.S dollar, both Americans and Canadians would pay the same in their respective currencies, $1,000.00 for that iPad. If today the USD surged in strength and appreciated so that USD/CAD exchange rate became 1.32, Canadians would pay $1,320.00 today for the same imported product they paid $1,000.00 for yesterday. That is a 32% price hike. This assumes that Apple adjusted the price to reflect the change in exchange rate (which of course they would not do over the short term). When a domestic currency depreciates against a trading partner's, imports become more expensive independent of income; the purchasing power of consumers declines.

    This isn't just a problem for Canadian consumers, it's also a problem for Apple. A strong U.S. dollar has negative impact on Apple's revenue from international business, which is over 60%. Consumers are less likely to buy when domestically prices are higher for imported goods. Added to that is that Apple prefers to adjust local pricing at the time of new product launches, which lag against movements in currencies. Apple eats the revenue loss and reduced margins until local pricing is realigned to reflect the change in exchange rate. Foreign exchange headwinds makes it challenging for Apple to increase its revenue from international sources despite the employment of financial instruments to hedge against such risk.
    I'm not sure I understand what you think Apple should do about this. The value of a currency is do to the strength of the economy of that country when compared to others. As the Canadian economy is apparently weak, the currency is valued less. Also the Canadian government, in order to push exports up, may be working to lower the value of the currency.

    none of this is Apple fault, and the responsibility to maintain the same relative pricing is their fiduciary duty. If Apple did what you wanted, they would lose money on every sale. I would hope they don't do that, even if total sales there go down. Some companies hold prices until they either just break even, or if they're really concerned about marketshare, even lose money. That's just bad business, and a reason why many companies have problems.
    The Canadian economy is not weak, in fact it is relatively going well compared to the US considering the 2008 recession was a lot milder and we recovered quicker, it's just that resource prices have an inordinate effect on our currency (not sure why since resources are not that great a part of the canadian economy). It fell off a about 4 years ago and the dollar went back to its pre-2007 price.

    The dollar has been stuck in the $0.75-$1 range for most of the last 40 years. In the 1970s it was higher than the US dollar, in the 1980s to mid 90s, about $0.85, because of debt issues and low oil pricing, it fell at its minimum around 2000 at about $0.63, but from $2003 it went constantly up to $1 in 2013.
    One wouldn't call the economy strong. It's been dragging for a long time. But you're right in one sense, it does depend too much on the price of resources.
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