Proposed Australian law forces tech companies to decrypt customer messages

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 67
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,388member
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    The thing is, if someone like a terrorist is determined to not have their communications discovered, they will do the research and find a way to do it properly. 
    They hope to catch the dumb ones. Which ends up being quite a few since "smart" and "willing to be a human trigger that dies in the process" don't often go together. 
    Right... Quite a few. Well, then It would be easy to get that info huh. When did that happen?

    Even when they HAVE THE INTEL, they can't stop the guys. That's what we mostly see. Most of those that did the deed in england were already known by authorities.

    Why, because well, you can't stop people until somebody's actually planning something and even stupid terrorists know not to use their own phones (or any phones) to communicate this kind of info. Most terrorist attacks seemingly were organized in a matter of days or as spur of the moment things.

    Getting the info after the fact won't save many cause most cells are quite isolated and they're all dead or they're caught through conventional means
    (that's certainly the case in britain, belgium or France).

    The one using this stuff don't need to smart, they're not coding the software, they're just using it.
    Unlike the PC days, you don't need to be a savvy to use just about anything on a cell phone.

    I code a pretty decent software just using javascript libs and a few encryption one in an hour an run it from my browser, no server component.
    Buy a burner phone/sim, go into a public WIFI, blast it accross the internet.
    Voila, every terrorist got a software... even the dumb ones.
    Why that's not being done? Well it has, there are already hundreds of variants of all kind of software on the net and all the terrorists need is a few to be vetted.
    If they're able to find mass murder videos, they can easily find the proper software...

    Now, they only have to buy a cheap burner, load up the software and voila, they're done and there is nothing that the little bozos in power or the police can do about it.
    Actually, they have broken cells after attacks so info after the fact is useful.  You want to catch the bomb makers and support infrastructure to stop the next attack.

    The police exist to protect you and the bozos in power were elected by you.  To side with terrorists is pretty lame but I guess I'm not too surprised you do.
     YOU DES-INGENIOUS TROLL...

    How the hell am I "for terrorists" ...

    That's what  moronic about this shit argument... 

    shit talkers like you would be the first to whine

    That's the kind of  "straw man" right wing intellectually bankrupt non sequitur pushers keep pulling out of their ass.... That ass is a deep well of logical fallacies.

    BTW, I was caught up in a real life mass shooting december 6 1989 in Montreal were 14 people, most of them women (like me), died at Ecole Polytechnique (my engineering school) and lost a few friends so you can STFU about the insinuation slimeball.


    Wow, I've been here for years and would NEVER have guessed you were a woman. Your use of language is certainly unique among all the women I have ever known, and I live in one of the self-described and proud of it "Red-Neck Capitals of the Country". 
    SpamSandwichmuthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 62 of 67
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    gatorguy said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    The thing is, if someone like a terrorist is determined to not have their communications discovered, they will do the research and find a way to do it properly. 
    They hope to catch the dumb ones. Which ends up being quite a few since "smart" and "willing to be a human trigger that dies in the process" don't often go together. 
    Right... Quite a few. Well, then It would be easy to get that info huh. When did that happen?

    Even when they HAVE THE INTEL, they can't stop the guys. That's what we mostly see. Most of those that did the deed in england were already known by authorities.

    Why, because well, you can't stop people until somebody's actually planning something and even stupid terrorists know not to use their own phones (or any phones) to communicate this kind of info. Most terrorist attacks seemingly were organized in a matter of days or as spur of the moment things.

    Getting the info after the fact won't save many cause most cells are quite isolated and they're all dead or they're caught through conventional means
    (that's certainly the case in britain, belgium or France).

    The one using this stuff don't need to smart, they're not coding the software, they're just using it.
    Unlike the PC days, you don't need to be a savvy to use just about anything on a cell phone.

    I code a pretty decent software just using javascript libs and a few encryption one in an hour an run it from my browser, no server component.
    Buy a burner phone/sim, go into a public WIFI, blast it accross the internet.
    Voila, every terrorist got a software... even the dumb ones.
    Why that's not being done? Well it has, there are already hundreds of variants of all kind of software on the net and all the terrorists need is a few to be vetted.
    If they're able to find mass murder videos, they can easily find the proper software...

    Now, they only have to buy a cheap burner, load up the software and voila, they're done and there is nothing that the little bozos in power or the police can do about it.
    Actually, they have broken cells after attacks so info after the fact is useful.  You want to catch the bomb makers and support infrastructure to stop the next attack.

    The police exist to protect you and the bozos in power were elected by you.  To side with terrorists is pretty lame but I guess I'm not too surprised you do.
     YOU DES-INGENIOUS TROLL...

    How the hell am I "for terrorists" ...

    That's what  moronic about this shit argument... 

    shit talkers like you would be the first to whine

    That's the kind of  "straw man" right wing intellectually bankrupt non sequitur pushers keep pulling out of their ass.... That ass is a deep well of logical fallacies.

    BTW, I was caught up in a real life mass shooting december 6 1989 in Montreal were 14 people, most of them women (like me), died at Ecole Polytechnique (my engineering school) and lost a few friends so you can STFU about the insinuation slimeball.


    Wow, I've been here for years and would NEVER have guessed you were a woman. Your use of language is certainly unique among all the women I have ever known, and I live in one of the self-described and proud of it "Red-Neck Capitals of the Country". 
    The incident she was evidently involved in ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_Polytechnique_massacre ) involved a psychotic French-Algerian Canadian who was abused by his father as a child. He had a hunting rifle and a knife and frankly, even if this deranged looney never had access to a firearm he would've figured out another way to carry out his intent:  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Lépine
  • Reply 63 of 67
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,891member
    gatorguy said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    The thing is, if someone like a terrorist is determined to not have their communications discovered, they will do the research and find a way to do it properly. 
    They hope to catch the dumb ones. Which ends up being quite a few since "smart" and "willing to be a human trigger that dies in the process" don't often go together. 
    Right... Quite a few. Well, then It would be easy to get that info huh. When did that happen?

    Even when they HAVE THE INTEL, they can't stop the guys. That's what we mostly see. Most of those that did the deed in england were already known by authorities.

    Why, because well, you can't stop people until somebody's actually planning something and even stupid terrorists know not to use their own phones (or any phones) to communicate this kind of info. Most terrorist attacks seemingly were organized in a matter of days or as spur of the moment things.

    Getting the info after the fact won't save many cause most cells are quite isolated and they're all dead or they're caught through conventional means
    (that's certainly the case in britain, belgium or France).

    The one using this stuff don't need to smart, they're not coding the software, they're just using it.
    Unlike the PC days, you don't need to be a savvy to use just about anything on a cell phone.

    I code a pretty decent software just using javascript libs and a few encryption one in an hour an run it from my browser, no server component.
    Buy a burner phone/sim, go into a public WIFI, blast it accross the internet.
    Voila, every terrorist got a software... even the dumb ones.
    Why that's not being done? Well it has, there are already hundreds of variants of all kind of software on the net and all the terrorists need is a few to be vetted.
    If they're able to find mass murder videos, they can easily find the proper software...

    Now, they only have to buy a cheap burner, load up the software and voila, they're done and there is nothing that the little bozos in power or the police can do about it.
    Actually, they have broken cells after attacks so info after the fact is useful.  You want to catch the bomb makers and support infrastructure to stop the next attack.

    The police exist to protect you and the bozos in power were elected by you.  To side with terrorists is pretty lame but I guess I'm not too surprised you do.
     YOU DES-INGENIOUS TROLL...

    How the hell am I "for terrorists" ...

    That's what  moronic about this shit argument... 

    shit talkers like you would be the first to whine

    That's the kind of  "straw man" right wing intellectually bankrupt non sequitur pushers keep pulling out of their ass.... That ass is a deep well of logical fallacies.

    BTW, I was caught up in a real life mass shooting december 6 1989 in Montreal were 14 people, most of them women (like me), died at Ecole Polytechnique (my engineering school) and lost a few friends so you can STFU about the insinuation slimeball.


    Wow, I've been here for years and would NEVER have guessed you were a woman. Your use of language is certainly unique among all the women I have ever known, and I live in one of the self-described and proud of it "Red-Neck Capitals of the Country". 
    I didn't know either. I tend to avoid 'he/she' references in my posts when I don't know the gender, as I'm sure most here are male. 

    I will make a mental note for the future foggyhill and remember this detail. In any case, apologies if I've ever referenced you as a 'he".
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 64 of 67
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    The thing is, if someone like a terrorist is determined to not have their communications discovered, they will do the research and find a way to do it properly. 
    They hope to catch the dumb ones. Which ends up being quite a few since "smart" and "willing to be a human trigger that dies in the process" don't often go together. 
    Right... Quite a few. Well, then It would be easy to get that info huh. When did that happen?

    Even when they HAVE THE INTEL, they can't stop the guys. That's what we mostly see. Most of those that did the deed in england were already known by authorities.

    Why, because well, you can't stop people until somebody's actually planning something and even stupid terrorists know not to use their own phones (or any phones) to communicate this kind of info. Most terrorist attacks seemingly were organized in a matter of days or as spur of the moment things.

    Getting the info after the fact won't save many cause most cells are quite isolated and they're all dead or they're caught through conventional means
    (that's certainly the case in britain, belgium or France).

    The one using this stuff don't need to smart, they're not coding the software, they're just using it.
    Unlike the PC days, you don't need to be a savvy to use just about anything on a cell phone.

    I code a pretty decent software just using javascript libs and a few encryption one in an hour an run it from my browser, no server component.
    Buy a burner phone/sim, go into a public WIFI, blast it accross the internet.
    Voila, every terrorist got a software... even the dumb ones.
    Why that's not being done? Well it has, there are already hundreds of variants of all kind of software on the net and all the terrorists need is a few to be vetted.
    If they're able to find mass murder videos, they can easily find the proper software...

    Now, they only have to buy a cheap burner, load up the software and voila, they're done and there is nothing that the little bozos in power or the police can do about it.
    Actually, they have broken cells after attacks so info after the fact is useful.  You want to catch the bomb makers and support infrastructure to stop the next attack.

    The police exist to protect you and the bozos in power were elected by you.  To side with terrorists is pretty lame but I guess I'm not too surprised you do.
    They have broken them THROUGH NORMAL MEANS YOU DES-INGENIOUS TROLL.

    No, that's not true.  First, there's too much data before the fact to actually process everything. Which is why even when the intel exists the attacks aren't always stopped.  Second, yes they have tracked cells after the fact though their communications.  "Normal means" includes all the data sources including encrypted ones if they can in the time frame.  After a significant attack it's all hands on deck and everyone helps including the cyber and crypto guys.  You will never be privy to that information.

    I guess not letting facts interfere with reality isn't just a conservative thing eh?
    They don't need a fracking back door in encryption inviting a police state with constant surveillance from whoever is in office while well motivated terrorists roll their own encryption. How the hell am I "for terrorists" when that in no way fixes terrorisms and current means of breaking up cells after  the fact are perfectly adequate and this won't help at all.
    It's not either/or.  First, I never said they need engineered backdoors in security and I believe they are in fact dangerous to everyone.  Second, what they are asking for actually isn't an engineered backdoor but for Apple apply any known zerodays/vulnerabilities that aren't yet fixed to break a device.  Plus the bad guys might be running an older version of iOS on their "burner" phones.  I dunno you need a law for that as opposed to just asking nicely but whatever.  If that's all they want it's not a big deal.

    The bozos in power, even Trump, is a good guy in comparison to the enemies we face.  Likewise, our police and intelligence agencies are not the jackbooted thugs folks like to make them out to be.

    And terrorists aren't as well organized or informed that they never make exploitable mistakes.  

    You prattle on about "current means" as if you know what they are and how well they work.  Hint they are as effective as modern antibiotics...meaning they are losing ground to more resistant bacteria.  You are effectively claiming we don't need any new drugs because the ones we have work.

    Whether the trade off between having end-to-end encryption and security is one that a democratic nation should make is debatable but one that should ultimately be made by the electorate.  
    I'm sure if a democrat was still in Office, shit talkers like you would be the first to whine about the gov intruding on privacy and "taking da guns" (sic) cause you guys did it for every single second a dem was in office in the last 27 years.
    Not that it's any business of yours but I haven't voted for a republican presidential nominee since...Dole I think.  My position on gun control is either get rid of them all like Australia or just do what the Swiss do.  What we have today is just a mess that is neither fish nor fowl.
    BTW, I was caught up in a real life mass shooting december 6 1989 in Montreal were 14 people, most of them women (like me), died at Ecole Polytechnique (my engineering school) and lost a few friends so you can STFU about the insinuation slimeball
    Yah?  So what?  Lots of folks had near misses and many have survived an attack and not just "caught up" in an event.  We believe based on the timeline that my wife and I walked past one of the car bombs in London in 2007.  Had it exploded it would have been hugely ironic since we were there sightseeing before a conference on IEDs...

    This topic has zero to do with gun control and just because you had a traumatic experience doesn't make you any more an expert on any given subject other than how you react under stress.

    The number of folks have had to endure the end result of an asymmetric attack is sadly all too high.  Most of them are the conservatives you feel such contempt for.  The ones missing limbs or loved ones because they did their duty in defending this country.  Whether you believe their sacrifices were in vain or squandered by politicians is immaterial as their opinions are opposite yours and sometimes mine.  

    So paint me unimpressed with your outrage and your language.  Been called worse by far better people. 

    I may not like the bozo in office but he was duly elected and I know too many folks to believe that our intelligence and security services are acting against the american people. 
    edited July 2017
  • Reply 65 of 67
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    gatorguy said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    The thing is, if someone like a terrorist is determined to not have their communications discovered, they will do the research and find a way to do it properly. 
    They hope to catch the dumb ones. Which ends up being quite a few since "smart" and "willing to be a human trigger that dies in the process" don't often go together. 
    Right... Quite a few. Well, then It would be easy to get that info huh. When did that happen?

    Even when they HAVE THE INTEL, they can't stop the guys. That's what we mostly see. Most of those that did the deed in england were already known by authorities.

    Why, because well, you can't stop people until somebody's actually planning something and even stupid terrorists know not to use their own phones (or any phones) to communicate this kind of info. Most terrorist attacks seemingly were organized in a matter of days or as spur of the moment things.

    Getting the info after the fact won't save many cause most cells are quite isolated and they're all dead or they're caught through conventional means
    (that's certainly the case in britain, belgium or France).

    The one using this stuff don't need to smart, they're not coding the software, they're just using it.
    Unlike the PC days, you don't need to be a savvy to use just about anything on a cell phone.

    I code a pretty decent software just using javascript libs and a few encryption one in an hour an run it from my browser, no server component.
    Buy a burner phone/sim, go into a public WIFI, blast it accross the internet.
    Voila, every terrorist got a software... even the dumb ones.
    Why that's not being done? Well it has, there are already hundreds of variants of all kind of software on the net and all the terrorists need is a few to be vetted.
    If they're able to find mass murder videos, they can easily find the proper software...

    Now, they only have to buy a cheap burner, load up the software and voila, they're done and there is nothing that the little bozos in power or the police can do about it.
    Actually, they have broken cells after attacks so info after the fact is useful.  You want to catch the bomb makers and support infrastructure to stop the next attack.

    The police exist to protect you and the bozos in power were elected by you.  To side with terrorists is pretty lame but I guess I'm not too surprised you do.
     YOU DES-INGENIOUS TROLL...

    How the hell am I "for terrorists" ...

    That's what  moronic about this shit argument... 

    shit talkers like you would be the first to whine

    That's the kind of  "straw man" right wing intellectually bankrupt non sequitur pushers keep pulling out of their ass.... That ass is a deep well of logical fallacies.

    BTW, I was caught up in a real life mass shooting december 6 1989 in Montreal were 14 people, most of them women (like me), died at Ecole Polytechnique (my engineering school) and lost a few friends so you can STFU about the insinuation slimeball.


    Wow, I've been here for years and would NEVER have guessed you were a woman. Your use of language is certainly unique among all the women I have ever known, and I live in one of the self-described and proud of it "Red-Neck Capitals of the Country". 
    You don't hang out with marines...and gender shouldn't matter on the internet.
  • Reply 66 of 67
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,038member
    nht said:
    gatorguy said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    The thing is, if someone like a terrorist is determined to not have their communications discovered, they will do the research and find a way to do it properly. 
    They hope to catch the dumb ones. Which ends up being quite a few since "smart" and "willing to be a human trigger that dies in the process" don't often go together. 
    Right... Quite a few. Well, then It would be easy to get that info huh. When did that happen?

    Even when they HAVE THE INTEL, they can't stop the guys. That's what we mostly see. Most of those that did the deed in england were already known by authorities.

    Why, because well, you can't stop people until somebody's actually planning something and even stupid terrorists know not to use their own phones (or any phones) to communicate this kind of info. Most terrorist attacks seemingly were organized in a matter of days or as spur of the moment things.

    Getting the info after the fact won't save many cause most cells are quite isolated and they're all dead or they're caught through conventional means
    (that's certainly the case in britain, belgium or France).

    The one using this stuff don't need to smart, they're not coding the software, they're just using it.
    Unlike the PC days, you don't need to be a savvy to use just about anything on a cell phone.

    I code a pretty decent software just using javascript libs and a few encryption one in an hour an run it from my browser, no server component.
    Buy a burner phone/sim, go into a public WIFI, blast it accross the internet.
    Voila, every terrorist got a software... even the dumb ones.
    Why that's not being done? Well it has, there are already hundreds of variants of all kind of software on the net and all the terrorists need is a few to be vetted.
    If they're able to find mass murder videos, they can easily find the proper software...

    Now, they only have to buy a cheap burner, load up the software and voila, they're done and there is nothing that the little bozos in power or the police can do about it.
    Actually, they have broken cells after attacks so info after the fact is useful.  You want to catch the bomb makers and support infrastructure to stop the next attack.

    The police exist to protect you and the bozos in power were elected by you.  To side with terrorists is pretty lame but I guess I'm not too surprised you do.
     YOU DES-INGENIOUS TROLL...

    How the hell am I "for terrorists" ...

    That's what  moronic about this shit argument... 

    shit talkers like you would be the first to whine

    That's the kind of  "straw man" right wing intellectually bankrupt non sequitur pushers keep pulling out of their ass.... That ass is a deep well of logical fallacies.

    BTW, I was caught up in a real life mass shooting december 6 1989 in Montreal were 14 people, most of them women (like me), died at Ecole Polytechnique (my engineering school) and lost a few friends so you can STFU about the insinuation slimeball.


    Wow, I've been here for years and would NEVER have guessed you were a woman. Your use of language is certainly unique among all the women I have ever known, and I live in one of the self-described and proud of it "Red-Neck Capitals of the Country". 
    You don't hang out with marines...and gender shouldn't matter on the internet.
    Sex (or gender or any other ways in which we classify people based on appearance) don’t matter on a message board, and I don’t think GG implied anything wrong with her language, only that people tend to have an online “voice” that allows for many assumptions, that are more often correct than not, about a variety of aspects about their person, age, upbringing, location, etc.

    While there is an argument to be made about a writer’s “voice” being affected by physical aspects that one may have (nature), I’d argue that culture (nurture) is the most common reason for being able to discern a variety of aspects about one’s tangibility based on one’s writing.

    PS: It’s not great movie (I thought it was quite boring) but I will say David Mitchell does an amazing job with the voices in his Cloud Atlas novel.
  • Reply 67 of 67
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    Soli said:
    nht said:
    gatorguy said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    foggyhill said:
    nht said:
    The thing is, if someone like a terrorist is determined to not have their communications discovered, they will do the research and find a way to do it properly. 
    They hope to catch the dumb ones. Which ends up being quite a few since "smart" and "willing to be a human trigger that dies in the process" don't often go together. 
    Right... Quite a few. Well, then It would be easy to get that info huh. When did that happen?

    Even when they HAVE THE INTEL, they can't stop the guys. That's what we mostly see. Most of those that did the deed in england were already known by authorities.

    Why, because well, you can't stop people until somebody's actually planning something and even stupid terrorists know not to use their own phones (or any phones) to communicate this kind of info. Most terrorist attacks seemingly were organized in a matter of days or as spur of the moment things.

    Getting the info after the fact won't save many cause most cells are quite isolated and they're all dead or they're caught through conventional means
    (that's certainly the case in britain, belgium or France).

    The one using this stuff don't need to smart, they're not coding the software, they're just using it.
    Unlike the PC days, you don't need to be a savvy to use just about anything on a cell phone.

    I code a pretty decent software just using javascript libs and a few encryption one in an hour an run it from my browser, no server component.
    Buy a burner phone/sim, go into a public WIFI, blast it accross the internet.
    Voila, every terrorist got a software... even the dumb ones.
    Why that's not being done? Well it has, there are already hundreds of variants of all kind of software on the net and all the terrorists need is a few to be vetted.
    If they're able to find mass murder videos, they can easily find the proper software...

    Now, they only have to buy a cheap burner, load up the software and voila, they're done and there is nothing that the little bozos in power or the police can do about it.
    Actually, they have broken cells after attacks so info after the fact is useful.  You want to catch the bomb makers and support infrastructure to stop the next attack.

    The police exist to protect you and the bozos in power were elected by you.  To side with terrorists is pretty lame but I guess I'm not too surprised you do.
     YOU DES-INGENIOUS TROLL...

    How the hell am I "for terrorists" ...

    That's what  moronic about this shit argument... 

    shit talkers like you would be the first to whine

    That's the kind of  "straw man" right wing intellectually bankrupt non sequitur pushers keep pulling out of their ass.... That ass is a deep well of logical fallacies.

    BTW, I was caught up in a real life mass shooting december 6 1989 in Montreal were 14 people, most of them women (like me), died at Ecole Polytechnique (my engineering school) and lost a few friends so you can STFU about the insinuation slimeball.


    Wow, I've been here for years and would NEVER have guessed you were a woman. Your use of language is certainly unique among all the women I have ever known, and I live in one of the self-described and proud of it "Red-Neck Capitals of the Country". 
    You don't hang out with marines...and gender shouldn't matter on the internet.
    Sex (or gender or any other ways in which we classify people based on appearance) don’t matter on a message board, and I don’t think GG implied anything wrong with her language, only that people tend to have an online “voice” that allows for many assumptions, that are more often correct than not, about a variety of aspects about their person, age, upbringing, location, etc.

    While there is an argument to be made about a writer’s “voice” being affected by physical aspects that one may have (nature), I’d argue that culture (nurture) is the most common reason for being able to discern a variety of aspects about one’s tangibility based on one’s writing.

    PS: It’s not great movie (I thought it was quite boring) but I will say David Mitchell does an amazing job with the voices in his Cloud Atlas novel.
    Well three things.  First, women are often treated poorly on the internet (i.e. Gamer gate), second anyone can claim to be anything on the internet and self identifying as a female certainly doesn't mean that you are and finally that anyone would be even remotely surprised by some very mild cursing and rather pedestrian insults is weirdly misogynistic in 2017.  

    He's essentially saying "Gee, I'm surprised you're a girl because you are willing to talk shit like a boy and not just roll over".  Really? That's what you want to post?
    edited July 2017
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