Former Google exec Vic Gundotra praises Apple iPhone 7 Plus camera, says Android photograp...

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 46
    anton zuykovanton zuykov Posts: 1,056member
    Both the WinTel experience and Android-Samsung demonstrate that open standards lower production costs and therefore device prices
    What it actually lowers is margin, not production cost. Hence, rapid innovation is seen on Apple's side, and not on Android-Sammy side. Innovation (especially rapid) costs A LOT of money (R&D ain't cheap, you know).
  • Reply 22 of 46
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    Obviously hoping Apple will hire him.
  • Reply 23 of 46
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,001member
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    zouzka said:
    That's not the point he was trying to make…
    But his point doesn't make any sens. "Should I use the Samsung Camera? Or the Android Camera" But on an S8 there is only the Samsung Camera app, so it's not confusing at all.

    " Gundotra is talking about the entire experience, from the lenses to the Phone's hardware, to the software, rather than just lens quality."
    Yeah, big deal, people still think the app, the quality, the experience etc is better on a Pixel.

    It won't take years for them to be on iPhone's level, they already have years ago now.

    And how many are buying a Pixel for this amazing camera? How many Pixel's in general are out there vs any other Android phone?
    Wait, that was not the point he was making.

    But go buy an S8, a LG G6, etc
    They take excellent pictures.
    But you said the experience is better on a Pixel vs an iPhone....I don't care about S8's, LG's, etc. How many professional photo shoots are done on a Pixel, or any Android phone for that matter versus an iPhone 7 Plus? How many professional movies are filmed on any Android phone versus an iPhone 7 Plus? 
    That was just an example, the experience is great on those phones too.

    Hahaha "professional movies" ? Like who the hell cares about that ? Real professionals use pro equipment.
    The rare one you see on certain magazines, it's just marketing.
    Let me know when Oscar winning directors are shooting movies on your knockoff.

    https://www.cultofmac.com/493434/steven-soderberghs-secret-iphone-movie-hollywood-abuzz/
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 46
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    zouzka said:
    That's not the point he was trying to make…
    But his point doesn't make any sens. "Should I use the Samsung Camera? Or the Android Camera" But on an S8 there is only the Samsung Camera app, so it's not confusing at all.

    " Gundotra is talking about the entire experience, from the lenses to the Phone's hardware, to the software, rather than just lens quality."
    Yeah, big deal, people still think the app, the quality, the experience etc is better on a Pixel.

    It won't take years for them to be on iPhone's level, they already have years ago now.

    And how many are buying a Pixel for this amazing camera? How many Pixel's in general are out there vs any other Android phone?
    Wait, that was not the point he was making.

    But go buy an S8, a LG G6, etc
    They take excellent pictures.
    But you said the experience is better on a Pixel vs an iPhone....I don't care about S8's, LG's, etc. How many professional photo shoots are done on a Pixel, or any Android phone for that matter versus an iPhone 7 Plus? How many professional movies are filmed on any Android phone versus an iPhone 7 Plus? 
    That was just an example, the experience is great on those phones too.

    Hahaha "professional movies" ? Like who the hell cares about that ? Real professionals use pro equipment.
    The rare one you see on certain magazines, it's just marketing.
    Let me know when Oscar winning directors are shooting movies on your knockoff.

    https://www.cultofmac.com/493434/steven-soderberghs-secret-iphone-movie-hollywood-abuzz/
    For how long would Android devices be called as "knockoffs" in this forum? 5 years? 10 years? Billion years? Eternity???? Even if the copying happens between iOS and Android regularly world back and forth? Like the iPhone Pro/X which is going to implement the "near bezel less design" and "OLED display" provided by none other than Samsung? And it is the "copied features" which are considered to be triggering the "super-cycle" after a gap of 3 years!!!
    edited July 2017
  • Reply 25 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,160member
    I think there's an element of not seeing the forest for the trees in all of this.

    It's a phone first and foremost and comes with all the drawbacks of having a handheld mobile device. Some devices have more drawbacks than others.

    It's not going to give you the utmost results all of the time and I'd say everyone agrees on that. Nobody questions that.

    The comments on the platform are also too general in scope to be useful. Some could say the flexibility of Android being open is also an advantage. In the same way Apple's closed system can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your needs.

    Your options are reduced with Apple but if they meet your needs at a price you can afford, everything is moot. 

    It's still a phone with a camera, not a camera with a phone. We shouldn't lose perspective because of that.

    Some Android manufacturers work just like Apple. They design their own SoC, collaborate with lens manufacturers, design their own image processors, apply their own AI etc. The platform isn't a problem for those players. Not a big one anyway.

    That all of that isn't platform wide really isn't an issue.

    The iPhone 6 I have at home takes great photos most of the time but it also takes shitty ones too. The software that ships with it is very unflexible IMO but I like the photos better than on my Android phone.

    Does my phone take crap photos? Not at all. They are mostly great for what I need and my phone only cost 249€. Far less than what the iPhone 6 cost. The iPhone 6 battery now only gives about 15mins of use before shutting down without warning. My phone still lasts around a day. I hear it's going to cost me 110€ for Apple to replace it and I could be up to a week without the phone. That's a lot of lost photos. It's all relative. As someone said, the best camera is the one you have to hand.

    If I'd wanted to spend more on a better camera I could have spent 500€ and got something far better (still for far less than an iPhone7+) but that was one of the tradeoffs I was willing - and able - to make.

    From an Android platform specific perspective things might not be uniform but I don't see individual manufacturers suffering as a result. Nor users.

    Current mid and high end Android cameras are very good, just as Apple's are. I don't see anyone claiming to hate the photos they take.

    No doubt Apple's offerings in the late 2017 lineup will improve things even more but so will Android offerings in the same period. The Mate 10 might be just one you should look out for.

    For me, the single biggest problem with smartphone cameras is the lack of a view finder but that's why I have a real camera too. An issue that is understandable because I never forget that at the end of the day, it's still a mobile phone and while it may be a jack of many trades, I don't expect it to be master of them all.

    Platform issues in this area are overblown when you take average users into account.
    edited July 2017 gatorguy
  • Reply 26 of 46
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,716member
    avon b7 said:
    I think there's an element of not seeing the forest for the trees in all of this.

    It's a phone first and foremost and comes with all the drawbacks of having a handheld mobile device. Some devices have more drawbacks than others.

    It's not going to give you the utmost results all of the time and I'd say everyone agrees on that. Nobody questions that.

    The comments on the platform are also too general in scope to be useful. Some could say the flexibility of Android being open is also an advantage. In the same way Apple's closed system can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your needs.

    Your options are reduced with Apple but if they meet your needs at a price you can afford, everything is moot. 

    It's still a phone with a camera, not a camera with a phone. We shouldn't lose perspective because of that.

    Some Android manufacturers work just like Apple. They design their own SoC, collaborate with lens manufacturers, design their own image processors, apply their own AI etc. The platform isn't a problem for those players. Not a big one anyway.

    That all of that isn't platform wide really isn't an issue.

    The iPhone 6 I have at home takes great photos most of the time but it also takes shitty ones too. The software that ships with it is very unflexible IMO but I like the photos better than on my Android phone.

    Does my phone take crap photos? Not at all. They are mostly great for what I need and my phone only cost 249€. Far less than what the iPhone 6 cost. The iPhone 6 battery now only gives about 15mins of use before shutting down without warning. My phone still lasts around a day. I hear it's going to cost me 110€ for Apple to replace it and I could be up to a week without the phone. That's a lot of lost photos. It's all relative. As someone said, the best camera is the one you have to hand.

    If I'd wanted to spend more on a better camera I could have spent 500€ and got something far better (still for far less than an iPhone7+) but that was one of the tradeoffs I was willing - and able - to make.

    From an Android platform specific perspective things might not be uniform but I don't see individual manufacturers suffering as a result. Nor users.

    Current mid and high end Android cameras are very good, just as Apple's are. I don't see anyone claiming to hate the photos they take.

    No doubt Apple's offerings in the late 2017 lineup will improve things even more but so will Android offerings in the same period. The Mate 10 might be just one you should look out for.

    For me, the single biggest problem with smartphone cameras is the lack of a view finder but that's why I have a real camera too. An issue that is understandable because I never forget that at the end of the day, it's still a mobile phone and while it may be a jack of many trades, I don't expect it to be master of them all.

    Platform issues in this area are overblown when you take average users into account.
    None of the Android OS manufacturers "work just like Apple". That's just simplistic bullshit. Only Google has control of Android OS, and if you don't have control of the OS, then you really aren't anywhere near working like Apple.

    It would be hard to imagine any of the OEM's having a roadmap farther out than the next Android OS release, and certainly, there is less hardware standardization at all levels across Android OS.

    I would add that Android OS has no system wide color management today. That will probably change in Android O, likely remaining inferior to iOS, but in the meantime, Apple holds a huge advantage in color management across devices and workflows, including iOS, and almost certainly if it does lag in IQ for it's camera module, that lag is almost unnoticeable to users.


  • Reply 27 of 46
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    zouzka said:
    That's not the point he was trying to make…
    But his point doesn't make any sens. "Should I use the Samsung Camera? Or the Android Camera" But on an S8 there is only the Samsung Camera app, so it's not confusing at all.

    " Gundotra is talking about the entire experience, from the lenses to the Phone's hardware, to the software, rather than just lens quality."
    Yeah, big deal, people still think the app, the quality, the experience etc is better on a Pixel.

    It won't take years for them to be on iPhone's level, they already have years ago now.

    And how many are buying a Pixel for this amazing camera? How many Pixel's in general are out there vs any other Android phone?
    Wait, that was not the point he was making.

    But go buy an S8, a LG G6, etc
    They take excellent pictures.
    But you said the experience is better on a Pixel vs an iPhone....I don't care about S8's, LG's, etc. How many professional photo shoots are done on a Pixel, or any Android phone for that matter versus an iPhone 7 Plus? How many professional movies are filmed on any Android phone versus an iPhone 7 Plus? 
    That was just an example, the experience is great on those phones too.

    Hahaha "professional movies" ? Like who the hell cares about that ? Real professionals use pro equipment.
    The rare one you see on certain magazines, it's just marketing.
    Let me know when Oscar winning directors are shooting movies on your knockoff.

    https://www.cultofmac.com/493434/steven-soderberghs-secret-iphone-movie-hollywood-abuzz/
    For how long would Android devices be called as "knockoffs" in this forum? 5 years? 10 years? Billion years? Eternity???? Even if the copying happens between iOS and Android regularly world back and forth? Like the iPhone Pro/X which is going to implement the "near bezel less design" and "OLED display" provided by none other than Samsung? And it is the "copied features" which are considered to be triggering the "super-cycle" after a gap of 3 years!!!
    Blah blah blah blah, do you have a point? Seriously?
     OLED was shit for 5 years still Samsung foisted it on people who still claimed like you do now that Apple should have shifted using it right when it came out!
    There are thousands of pages on places like MacRumors going back years that Apple was behind because they had not switched then and there.
    Samsung basically used their own users as lab rats for years to develop the manufacturign capacity for OLED.
    The reason Apple is going to Samsung is manufacturing capability, not some kind of tech godhood.

    Android as a whole is not a company btw, so again, what's your point?


    tmay
  • Reply 28 of 46
    blehkblehk Posts: 1unconfirmed, member
    I think the Samsung and one plus 3 photos are beautiful, don’t really like the iPhone jpeg colours, never tried a iPhone raw photos so can’t comment there, I used the iPhone 6, 7 in jpeg and LG G4, the G4 is quite close to the 7 in jpeg but still prefer the G4 in raw, because the jpegs are over sharpened and over saturated. So not very fair comparison. I can understand the ex senior VP of engineering comment about android app overlap and waiting for official API, android is both the most advanced system and the slowest system at the same time, just look at fingerprint sensor, Apple and Samsung had 2 year lead in fingerprint sensor, talk about stock apps, Google is way behind other manufacturers compound that with android updates not getting onto older phones, is really slowing down android progress. Listening to what Google is doing now like showing Bluetooth battery level in android o, or improving Bluetooth performance in android o, I can only say that iPhone 6 has better Bluetooth retention compared to a G4 which crackles more during songs and podcasts, android really needs the improvement in Bluetooth from android o. And btw iPhone 6 already on iOS 11, so improvements in software updates like a totally new file system to speed up file transfers or drag and drop with sand boxing on the iPad is already there. For photos though I think android still have a lead, pixel phones has this beautiful night photos with abundant colours which I hope the iPhone could match, iPhones are already doing multi shot interpolation. looking at iOS 11 the Live Photos Long exposure feature is kinda cool, and the portrait mode on iOS 11 has also improved in execution and replay, so there might be hope.
  • Reply 29 of 46
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Paging Gatorguy, paging Gatorguy…
    Why, are you missing me? That's certainly a vote in my favor so thank you..

    But if you're waiting for me to dispute Mr. Gondotra's comments you'll have a very long wait. He's certainly more qualified that me or anyone else here AFAIK. Note what he actually refers to tho and why he feels as he does (and it makes sense) and not what you'd like to think he's saying. But anyway I have no reason not to trust him.

    Anything else? 
    Yeah, actually. 

    Being less qualified to speak has never stopped anyone defending their side on the internet. 

    And I'm not so sure this is the position you'd be taking if you'd gotten here first. 

    Miss you? Of course I do! You and Sog are the most entertaining people on this forum. 

    But point taken, I was seriously off-topic.

    I don't trust this chap myself, mainly because I don't know why he left Google. What he says makes a lot of sense, but it could also be some very sour grapes.

    That doesn't mean he's wrong, but his possible motivations make me a little wary. 
    edited July 2017
  • Reply 30 of 46
    zouzkazouzka Posts: 5unconfirmed, member
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    zouzka said:
    That's not the point he was trying to make…
    But his point doesn't make any sens. "Should I use the Samsung Camera? Or the Android Camera" But on an S8 there is only the Samsung Camera app, so it's not confusing at all.

    " Gundotra is talking about the entire experience, from the lenses to the Phone's hardware, to the software, rather than just lens quality."
    Yeah, big deal, people still think the app, the quality, the experience etc is better on a Pixel.

    It won't take years for them to be on iPhone's level, they already have years ago now.

    And how many are buying a Pixel for this amazing camera? How many Pixel's in general are out there vs any other Android phone?
    Wait, that was not the point he was making.

    But go buy an S8, a LG G6, etc
    They take excellent pictures.
    But you said the experience is better on a Pixel vs an iPhone....I don't care about S8's, LG's, etc. How many professional photo shoots are done on a Pixel, or any Android phone for that matter versus an iPhone 7 Plus? How many professional movies are filmed on any Android phone versus an iPhone 7 Plus? 
    That was just an example, the experience is great on those phones too.

    Hahaha "professional movies" ? Like who the hell cares about that ? Real professionals use pro equipment.
    The rare one you see on certain magazines, it's just marketing.
    Let me know when Oscar winning directors are shooting movies on your knockoff.

    https://www.cultofmac.com/493434/steven-soderberghs-secret-iphone-movie-hollywood-abuzz/
    Like I said, pure marketing, and you fell for it 
    gatorguy
  • Reply 31 of 46
    foggyhill said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    zouzka said:
    That's not the point he was trying to make…
    But his point doesn't make any sens. "Should I use the Samsung Camera? Or the Android Camera" But on an S8 there is only the Samsung Camera app, so it's not confusing at all.

    " Gundotra is talking about the entire experience, from the lenses to the Phone's hardware, to the software, rather than just lens quality."
    Yeah, big deal, people still think the app, the quality, the experience etc is better on a Pixel.

    It won't take years for them to be on iPhone's level, they already have years ago now.

    And how many are buying a Pixel for this amazing camera? How many Pixel's in general are out there vs any other Android phone?
    Wait, that was not the point he was making.

    But go buy an S8, a LG G6, etc
    They take excellent pictures.
    But you said the experience is better on a Pixel vs an iPhone....I don't care about S8's, LG's, etc. How many professional photo shoots are done on a Pixel, or any Android phone for that matter versus an iPhone 7 Plus? How many professional movies are filmed on any Android phone versus an iPhone 7 Plus? 
    That was just an example, the experience is great on those phones too.

    Hahaha "professional movies" ? Like who the hell cares about that ? Real professionals use pro equipment.
    The rare one you see on certain magazines, it's just marketing.
    Let me know when Oscar winning directors are shooting movies on your knockoff.

    https://www.cultofmac.com/493434/steven-soderberghs-secret-iphone-movie-hollywood-abuzz/
    For how long would Android devices be called as "knockoffs" in this forum? 5 years? 10 years? Billion years? Eternity???? Even if the copying happens between iOS and Android regularly world back and forth? Like the iPhone Pro/X which is going to implement the "near bezel less design" and "OLED display" provided by none other than Samsung? And it is the "copied features" which are considered to be triggering the "super-cycle" after a gap of 3 years!!!
    Blah blah blah blah, do you have a point? Seriously?
     OLED was shit for 5 years still Samsung foisted it on people who still claimed like you do now that Apple should have shifted using it right when it came out!
    There are thousands of pages on places like MacRumors going back years that Apple was behind because they had not switched then and there.
    Samsung basically used their own users as lab rats for years to develop the manufacturign capacity for OLED.
    The reason Apple is going to Samsung is manufacturing capability, not some kind of tech godhood.

    Android as a whole is not a company btw, so again, what's your point?
    With respect to OLED display technology in smartphones, who is the "Original" and who is the "copycat"? Can you answer that question honestly to yourselves? My point was fairly simple - It is ridiculous to call "ALL Android smartphones" as "Knockoffs" when Apple is also copying ideas from Android OEMs. Need proof? Don't look any further than upcoming iPhone Pro.
    edited August 2017
  • Reply 32 of 46
    joogabahjoogabah Posts: 139member
    Both the WinTel experience and Android-Samsung demonstrate that open standards lower production costs and therefore device prices, while Apple's closed system promotes more rapid innovation. It does not appear that mobile computer technology has matured to the point yet where Apple's future is imperiled. By pushing innovation forward every year, Apple is making it impossible for Android phone makers to standardize (commoditize) costly components, or share new application features. Its R&D activities will both preserve Apple profitability going forward and generate some amazing new products.
    It demonstrates that "central planning" has its advantages which is an underlying reason Apple gets so much hatred in the United States.  Apple represents communism and Android/Windows represents "choice" and the American way... No consideration will be tolerated of anything that violates the American ideology.  That wouldn't be freedom.  Apple MUST be shown to be inferior and doomed. 
  • Reply 33 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,160member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think there's an element of not seeing the forest for the trees in all of this.

    It's a phone first and foremost and comes with all the drawbacks of having a handheld mobile device. Some devices have more drawbacks than others.

    It's not going to give you the utmost results all of the time and I'd say everyone agrees on that. Nobody questions that.

    The comments on the platform are also too general in scope to be useful. Some could say the flexibility of Android being open is also an advantage. In the same way Apple's closed system can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your needs.

    Your options are reduced with Apple but if they meet your needs at a price you can afford, everything is moot. 

    It's still a phone with a camera, not a camera with a phone. We shouldn't lose perspective because of that.

    Some Android manufacturers work just like Apple. They design their own SoC, collaborate with lens manufacturers, design their own image processors, apply their own AI etc. The platform isn't a problem for those players. Not a big one anyway.

    That all of that isn't platform wide really isn't an issue.

    The iPhone 6 I have at home takes great photos most of the time but it also takes shitty ones too. The software that ships with it is very unflexible IMO but I like the photos better than on my Android phone.

    Does my phone take crap photos? Not at all. They are mostly great for what I need and my phone only cost 249€. Far less than what the iPhone 6 cost. The iPhone 6 battery now only gives about 15mins of use before shutting down without warning. My phone still lasts around a day. I hear it's going to cost me 110€ for Apple to replace it and I could be up to a week without the phone. That's a lot of lost photos. It's all relative. As someone said, the best camera is the one you have to hand.

    If I'd wanted to spend more on a better camera I could have spent 500€ and got something far better (still for far less than an iPhone7+) but that was one of the tradeoffs I was willing - and able - to make.

    From an Android platform specific perspective things might not be uniform but I don't see individual manufacturers suffering as a result. Nor users.

    Current mid and high end Android cameras are very good, just as Apple's are. I don't see anyone claiming to hate the photos they take.

    No doubt Apple's offerings in the late 2017 lineup will improve things even more but so will Android offerings in the same period. The Mate 10 might be just one you should look out for.

    For me, the single biggest problem with smartphone cameras is the lack of a view finder but that's why I have a real camera too. An issue that is understandable because I never forget that at the end of the day, it's still a mobile phone and while it may be a jack of many trades, I don't expect it to be master of them all.

    Platform issues in this area are overblown when you take average users into account.
    None of the Android OS manufacturers "work just like Apple". That's just simplistic bullshit. Only Google has control of Android OS, and if you don't have control of the OS, then you really aren't anywhere near working like Apple.

    It would be hard to imagine any of the OEM's having a roadmap farther out than the next Android OS release, and certainly, there is less hardware standardization at all levels across Android OS.

    I would add that Android OS has no system wide color management today. That will probably change in Android O, likely remaining inferior to iOS, but in the meantime, Apple holds a huge advantage in color management across devices and workflows, including iOS, and almost certainly if it does lag in IQ for it's camera module, that lag is almost unnoticeable to users.


    Some Android manufacturers work just like Apple. Cover your eyes and ears and say it ain't so if you wish, but you are seeing countless examples of companies brewing their own ideas and if Android doesn't have the right pipes for a particular feature, a manufacturer can add the necessary code on top.

    Do you think fingerprint scanner gestures had to be implemented in Android before manufacturers could implement the feature?

    No. A manufacturer implemented the feature and seeing how popular it was, Google added support for it to Android. 

    Do you think Huawei decided to design its own SoC and DSP for image processing just for the heck of it when they could have gone the off-the-shelf route?

    That is exactly what Apple does sometimes - but not all the time.

    You don't need control of the OS when you can add to it.

    And you shouldn't get sucked in by your 'system-wide' claims for functionality across applications. Apple has a very, very long history of private APIs reserved for its own software. Apple locks developers out for many reasons.

    System wide Colour management?

    I think it would be nice and yes, it's coming (to a degree) to Android but you are focusing far too  much attention on it. For non-pros it isn't even an issue. 

    When Vic G stated "Google was crushing this 5 years ago - they had had "auto awesome" that used AI techniques to automatically remove wrinkles, whiten teeth, add vignetting, etc... but recently Google has fallen back", Android didn't have system-wide colour management back then either. You would think that if such a feature was an absolute dealbreaker he would have put it at the top of his list.

    Like I said this is like not seeing the forest for the trees.

    What good is system-wide colour management if the phones screen is physically incapable of displaying the image correctly?

    People take huge amounts of photos and share them with huge amounts of people using a huge amount of different phones. Have you ever seen an average user mention colour management or complain about the look of an image?

    And some of those Android phones have very good hardware/software onboard to handle everything even if those same options aren't available throughout stock Android.

    System wide colour management will resolve a problem most people never knew they had.

    And lastly, a personal reflection. The fact that Android manufacturers can brew their own solutions without system-wide support can also be a good thing. Hardware reaches users faster. It's just one of the reasons something like fast charging has taken so long to reach Apple devices. And Android manufacturers can implement off the shelf solutions or  come up with their own.
    gatorguy
  • Reply 34 of 46
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,232member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think there's an element of not seeing the forest for the trees in all of this.

    It's a phone first and foremost and comes with all the drawbacks of having a handheld mobile device. Some devices have more drawbacks than others.

    It's not going to give you the utmost results all of the time and I'd say everyone agrees on that. Nobody questions that.

    The comments on the platform are also too general in scope to be useful. Some could say the flexibility of Android being open is also an advantage. In the same way Apple's closed system can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your needs.

    Your options are reduced with Apple but if they meet your needs at a price you can afford, everything is moot. 

    It's still a phone with a camera, not a camera with a phone. We shouldn't lose perspective because of that.

    Some Android manufacturers work just like Apple. They design their own SoC, collaborate with lens manufacturers, design their own image processors, apply their own AI etc. The platform isn't a problem for those players. Not a big one anyway.

    That all of that isn't platform wide really isn't an issue.

    The iPhone 6 I have at home takes great photos most of the time but it also takes shitty ones too. The software that ships with it is very unflexible IMO but I like the photos better than on my Android phone.

    Does my phone take crap photos? Not at all. They are mostly great for what I need and my phone only cost 249€. Far less than what the iPhone 6 cost. The iPhone 6 battery now only gives about 15mins of use before shutting down without warning. My phone still lasts around a day. I hear it's going to cost me 110€ for Apple to replace it and I could be up to a week without the phone. That's a lot of lost photos. It's all relative. As someone said, the best camera is the one you have to hand.

    If I'd wanted to spend more on a better camera I could have spent 500€ and got something far better (still for far less than an iPhone7+) but that was one of the tradeoffs I was willing - and able - to make.

    From an Android platform specific perspective things might not be uniform but I don't see individual manufacturers suffering as a result. Nor users.

    Current mid and high end Android cameras are very good, just as Apple's are. I don't see anyone claiming to hate the photos they take.

    No doubt Apple's offerings in the late 2017 lineup will improve things even more but so will Android offerings in the same period. The Mate 10 might be just one you should look out for.

    For me, the single biggest problem with smartphone cameras is the lack of a view finder but that's why I have a real camera too. An issue that is understandable because I never forget that at the end of the day, it's still a mobile phone and while it may be a jack of many trades, I don't expect it to be master of them all.

    Platform issues in this area are overblown when you take average users into account.
    None of the Android OS manufacturers "work just like Apple". That's just simplistic bullshit. Only Google has control of Android OS, and if you don't have control of the OS, then you really aren't anywhere near working like Apple.

    It would be hard to imagine any of the OEM's having a roadmap farther out than the next Android OS release, and certainly, there is less hardware standardization at all levels across Android OS.

    I would add that Android OS has no system wide color management today. That will probably change in Android O, likely remaining inferior to iOS, but in the meantime, Apple holds a huge advantage in color management across devices and workflows, including iOS, and almost certainly if it does lag in IQ for it's camera module, that lag is almost unnoticeable to users.


    That’s not really true. Google does not have FULL control over their OS. They conceded that from the very beginning. It’s why there are two major versions, both from Google. Both “real” Android, and AOSP, which is what about 60% of smartphone OEMs around the world use. AOSP doesn’t use Google’s services, because Google doesn’t make them available to AOSP OEMs. So almost everything that makes Android Android for those who have “real” Android phones, doesn’t exist. OEMs add their own services, and modify the OS.

    with “real” Android, OEMs use “skins” to differentiate from other Android manufacturers (AOSP OEMs do that as well). Samsung, the largest Android OEM, uses both “real” Android, and AOSP, depending where their phones are sold. These skins change the way the OS looks and feels, both eliminating Android features, and adding those from the OEM. They have parallel services and apps to Google’s On their phones too.

    google decided, in the beginning, to cede a lot of control to get OEMs to manufacture Android phones, and despite trying, have never been able to wrest complete control back.

    its not likely that Android will ever get any real color management, much less system wide control. In order for that, Google would need to rewrite large swaths of the OS. Samsung, for example, after fixing the problems with color in their OLED screens by calibrating each one, as Apple had been doing for several years previously, has problems with their wide band display.

    normally, the display is set to sRGB, as most everything on the web is sRGB., And if something has no color profile, it can usually be safely assumed to be sRGB. But if something is wideband and, usually either Adobe RGB 1998, or nowadays, DCI-P3, then you need to go into the display panel and manually change the profile. You have to do that every time something is, or isn’t sRGB, if it was set to something else.

    this is a true pain. But with system wide color management as iOS has, you have to do none of that. Even better, you can actually look at two images, side by side, that have two different profiles, at the same time, and each will properly display in the correct profile. Doing color work on my new 2017 iPad Pro 12.9”, I find that very helpful, as I’ve been doing that for decades on my Mac.

    and, by the way, Windows also doesn’t have a usable built-in systemwide color management system. Microsoft did do one year’s ago in response to protests, but it never worked properly, and hasn’t been updated for years, and so, is kept turned off by default. I haven’t looked at Windows 10 to see if they still bother to include it.
    edited August 2017
  • Reply 35 of 46
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,232member
    foggyhill said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    zouzka said:
    That's not the point he was trying to make…
    But his point doesn't make any sens. "Should I use the Samsung Camera? Or the Android Camera" But on an S8 there is only the Samsung Camera app, so it's not confusing at all.

    " Gundotra is talking about the entire experience, from the lenses to the Phone's hardware, to the software, rather than just lens quality."
    Yeah, big deal, people still think the app, the quality, the experience etc is better on a Pixel.

    It won't take years for them to be on iPhone's level, they already have years ago now.

    And how many are buying a Pixel for this amazing camera? How many Pixel's in general are out there vs any other Android phone?
    Wait, that was not the point he was making.

    But go buy an S8, a LG G6, etc
    They take excellent pictures.
    But you said the experience is better on a Pixel vs an iPhone....I don't care about S8's, LG's, etc. How many professional photo shoots are done on a Pixel, or any Android phone for that matter versus an iPhone 7 Plus? How many professional movies are filmed on any Android phone versus an iPhone 7 Plus? 
    That was just an example, the experience is great on those phones too.

    Hahaha "professional movies" ? Like who the hell cares about that ? Real professionals use pro equipment.
    The rare one you see on certain magazines, it's just marketing.
    Let me know when Oscar winning directors are shooting movies on your knockoff.

    https://www.cultofmac.com/493434/steven-soderberghs-secret-iphone-movie-hollywood-abuzz/
    For how long would Android devices be called as "knockoffs" in this forum? 5 years? 10 years? Billion years? Eternity???? Even if the copying happens between iOS and Android regularly world back and forth? Like the iPhone Pro/X which is going to implement the "near bezel less design" and "OLED display" provided by none other than Samsung? And it is the "copied features" which are considered to be triggering the "super-cycle" after a gap of 3 years!!!
    Blah blah blah blah, do you have a point? Seriously?
     OLED was shit for 5 years still Samsung foisted it on people who still claimed like you do now that Apple should have shifted using it right when it came out!
    There are thousands of pages on places like MacRumors going back years that Apple was behind because they had not switched then and there.
    Samsung basically used their own users as lab rats for years to develop the manufacturign capacity for OLED.
    The reason Apple is going to Samsung is manufacturing capability, not some kind of tech godhood.

    Android as a whole is not a company btw, so again, what's your point?
    With respect to OLED display technology in smartphones, who is the "Original" and who is the "copycat"? Can you answer that question honestly to yourselves? My point was fairly simple - It is ridiculous to call "ALL Android smartphones" as "Knockoffs" when Apple is also copying ideas from Android OEMs. Need proof? Don't look any further than upcoming iPhone Pro.
    It’s pretty clear that apple didn’t use OLEDs because their quality was pretty poor for years. Samsung used them despite that, for marketing reasons. People using Samsung phones had to suffer with these crappy displays until the criticism became so rampant that they had to spend the money to calibrate each one, as Apple had been doing for years for their lcd displays.

    it’s no surprise however, that now with OLED displays being much better, that Apple would begin a move to them.  Copying? I don’t think so.

    apple is so far ahead in so many areas that using the word copying is a joke.
    edited August 2017 tmay
  • Reply 36 of 46
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,716member
    melgross said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think there's an element of not seeing the forest for the trees in all of this.

    It's a phone first and foremost and comes with all the drawbacks of having a handheld mobile device. Some devices have more drawbacks than others.

    It's not going to give you the utmost results all of the time and I'd say everyone agrees on that. Nobody questions that.

    The comments on the platform are also too general in scope to be useful. Some could say the flexibility of Android being open is also an advantage. In the same way Apple's closed system can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your needs.

    Your options are reduced with Apple but if they meet your needs at a price you can afford, everything is moot. 

    It's still a phone with a camera, not a camera with a phone. We shouldn't lose perspective because of that.

    Some Android manufacturers work just like Apple. They design their own SoC, collaborate with lens manufacturers, design their own image processors, apply their own AI etc. The platform isn't a problem for those players. Not a big one anyway.

    That all of that isn't platform wide really isn't an issue.

    The iPhone 6 I have at home takes great photos most of the time but it also takes shitty ones too. The software that ships with it is very unflexible IMO but I like the photos better than on my Android phone.

    Does my phone take crap photos? Not at all. They are mostly great for what I need and my phone only cost 249€. Far less than what the iPhone 6 cost. The iPhone 6 battery now only gives about 15mins of use before shutting down without warning. My phone still lasts around a day. I hear it's going to cost me 110€ for Apple to replace it and I could be up to a week without the phone. That's a lot of lost photos. It's all relative. As someone said, the best camera is the one you have to hand.

    If I'd wanted to spend more on a better camera I could have spent 500€ and got something far better (still for far less than an iPhone7+) but that was one of the tradeoffs I was willing - and able - to make.

    From an Android platform specific perspective things might not be uniform but I don't see individual manufacturers suffering as a result. Nor users.

    Current mid and high end Android cameras are very good, just as Apple's are. I don't see anyone claiming to hate the photos they take.

    No doubt Apple's offerings in the late 2017 lineup will improve things even more but so will Android offerings in the same period. The Mate 10 might be just one you should look out for.

    For me, the single biggest problem with smartphone cameras is the lack of a view finder but that's why I have a real camera too. An issue that is understandable because I never forget that at the end of the day, it's still a mobile phone and while it may be a jack of many trades, I don't expect it to be master of them all.

    Platform issues in this area are overblown when you take average users into account.
    None of the Android OS manufacturers "work just like Apple". That's just simplistic bullshit. Only Google has control of Android OS, and if you don't have control of the OS, then you really aren't anywhere near working like Apple.

    It would be hard to imagine any of the OEM's having a roadmap farther out than the next Android OS release, and certainly, there is less hardware standardization at all levels across Android OS.

    I would add that Android OS has no system wide color management today. That will probably change in Android O, likely remaining inferior to iOS, but in the meantime, Apple holds a huge advantage in color management across devices and workflows, including iOS, and almost certainly if it does lag in IQ for it's camera module, that lag is almost unnoticeable to users.


    That’s not really true. Google does not have FULL control over their OS. They conceded that from the very beginning. It’s why there are two major versions, both from Google. Both “real” Android, and AOSP, which is what about 60% of smartphone OEMs around the world use. AOSP doesn’t use Google’s services, because Google doesn’t make them available to AOSP OEMs. So almost everything that makes Android Android for those who have “real” Android phones, doesn’t exist. OEMs add their own services, and modify the OS.

    with “real” Android, OEMs use “skins” to differentiate from other Android manufacturers (AOSP OEMs do that as well). Samsung, the largest Android OEM, uses both “real” Android, and AOSP, depending where their phones are sold. These skins change the way the OS looks and feels, both eliminating Android features, and adding those from the OEM. They have parallel services and apps to Google’s On their phones too.

    google decided, in the beginning, to cede a lot of control to get OEMs to manufacture Android phones, and despite trying, have never been able to wrest complete control back.

    its not likely that Android will ever get any real color management, much less system wide control. In order for that, Google would need to rewrite large swaths of the OS. Samsung, for example, after fixing the problems with color in their OLED screens by calibrating each one, as Apple had been doing for several years previously, has problems with their wide band display.

    normally, the display is set to sRGB, as most everything on the web is sRGB., And if something has no color profile, it can usually be safely assumed to be sRGB. But if something is wideband and, usually either Adobe RGB 1998, or nowadays, DCI-P3, then you need to go into the display panel and manually change the profile. You have to do that every time something is, or isn’t sRGB, if it was set to something else.

    this is a true pain. But with system wide color management as iOS has, you have to do none of that. Even better, you can actually look at two images, side by side, that have two different profiles, at the same time, and each will properly display in the correct profile. Doing color work on my new 2017 iPad Pro 12.9”, I find that very helpful, as I’ve been doing that for decades on my Mac.

    and, by the way, Windows also doesn’t have a usable built-in systemwide color management system. Microsoft did do one year’s ago in response to protests, but it never worked properly, and hasn’t been updated for years, and so, is kept turned off by default. I haven’t looked at Windows 10 to see if they still bother to include it.
    I agree with your exception about Google's control of Android OS.
  • Reply 37 of 46
    melgross said:
    foggyhill said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    zouzka said:
    That's not the point he was trying to make…
    But his point doesn't make any sens. "Should I use the Samsung Camera? Or the Android Camera" But on an S8 there is only the Samsung Camera app, so it's not confusing at all.

    " Gundotra is talking about the entire experience, from the lenses to the Phone's hardware, to the software, rather than just lens quality."
    Yeah, big deal, people still think the app, the quality, the experience etc is better on a Pixel.

    It won't take years for them to be on iPhone's level, they already have years ago now.

    And how many are buying a Pixel for this amazing camera? How many Pixel's in general are out there vs any other Android phone?
    Wait, that was not the point he was making.

    But go buy an S8, a LG G6, etc
    They take excellent pictures.
    But you said the experience is better on a Pixel vs an iPhone....I don't care about S8's, LG's, etc. How many professional photo shoots are done on a Pixel, or any Android phone for that matter versus an iPhone 7 Plus? How many professional movies are filmed on any Android phone versus an iPhone 7 Plus? 
    That was just an example, the experience is great on those phones too.

    Hahaha "professional movies" ? Like who the hell cares about that ? Real professionals use pro equipment.
    The rare one you see on certain magazines, it's just marketing.
    Let me know when Oscar winning directors are shooting movies on your knockoff.

    https://www.cultofmac.com/493434/steven-soderberghs-secret-iphone-movie-hollywood-abuzz/
    For how long would Android devices be called as "knockoffs" in this forum? 5 years? 10 years? Billion years? Eternity???? Even if the copying happens between iOS and Android regularly world back and forth? Like the iPhone Pro/X which is going to implement the "near bezel less design" and "OLED display" provided by none other than Samsung? And it is the "copied features" which are considered to be triggering the "super-cycle" after a gap of 3 years!!!
    Blah blah blah blah, do you have a point? Seriously?
     OLED was shit for 5 years still Samsung foisted it on people who still claimed like you do now that Apple should have shifted using it right when it came out!
    There are thousands of pages on places like MacRumors going back years that Apple was behind because they had not switched then and there.
    Samsung basically used their own users as lab rats for years to develop the manufacturign capacity for OLED.
    The reason Apple is going to Samsung is manufacturing capability, not some kind of tech godhood.

    Android as a whole is not a company btw, so again, what's your point?
    With respect to OLED display technology in smartphones, who is the "Original" and who is the "copycat"? Can you answer that question honestly to yourselves? My point was fairly simple - It is ridiculous to call "ALL Android smartphones" as "Knockoffs" when Apple is also copying ideas from Android OEMs. Need proof? Don't look any further than upcoming iPhone Pro.
    It’s pretty clear that apple didn’t use OLEDs because their quality was pretty poor for years. Samsung used them despite that, for marketing reasons. People using Samsung phones had to suffer with these crappy displays until the criticism became so rampant that they had to spend the money to calibrate each one, as Apple had been doing for years for their lcd displays.

    it’s no surprise however, that now with OLED displays being much better, that Apple would begin a move to them.  Copying? I don’t think so.

    apple is so far ahead in so many areas that using the word copying is a joke.

    With respect to OLED displays, Apple did not make any investment whatsoever and let Samsung work on it from the scratch, make it perfect and then use it once Samsung has perfected it. I probably used the wrong word "copying" in this specific case. In this case, would "borrowing the idea" be the right phrase for describing this situation? Because Apple did just NOTHING in terms of investment in R&D to make it ready for deployment in iPhones. And it is just one example. There are other "ideas" (less bezel design, just to give an example) that Apple has "borrowed" from Android OEMs. When that happens regularly, calling "ALL Android phones" as knockoffs is ridiculous. For "borrowing" those ideas, iPhones CAN also be called as "knockoff". I also mentioned a classic example of that - upcoming iPhone X/Pro. It would look more like an Android phone (tiny bezels and OLED display), than any past iPhones (with giant bezels, LCD display) which have been launched so far.

  • Reply 38 of 46
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    joogabah said:
    Both the WinTel experience and Android-Samsung demonstrate that open standards lower production costs and therefore device prices, while Apple's closed system promotes more rapid innovation. It does not appear that mobile computer technology has matured to the point yet where Apple's future is imperiled. By pushing innovation forward every year, Apple is making it impossible for Android phone makers to standardize (commoditize) costly components, or share new application features. Its R&D activities will both preserve Apple profitability going forward and generate some amazing new products.
    It demonstrates that "central planning" has its advantages which is an underlying reason Apple gets so much hatred in the United States.  Apple represents communism and Android/Windows represents "choice" and the American way... No consideration will be tolerated of anything that violates the American ideology.  That wouldn't be freedom.  Apple MUST be shown to be inferior and doomed. 
    That's a nice load of manure you're trying to sell.  Not too many takers I'm afraid. 
    edited August 2017
  • Reply 39 of 46
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    avon b7 said:
    I think there's an element of not seeing the forest for the trees in all of this.

    It's a phone first and foremost and comes with all the drawbacks of having a handheld mobile device. Some devices have more drawbacks than others.

    It's not going to give you the utmost results all of the time and I'd say everyone agrees on that. Nobody questions that.

    The comments on the platform are also too general in scope to be useful. Some could say the flexibility of Android being open is also an advantage. In the same way Apple's closed system can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your needs.

    Your options are reduced with Apple but if they meet your needs at a price you can afford, everything is moot. 

    It's still a phone with a camera, not a camera with a phone. We shouldn't lose perspective because of that.

    Some Android manufacturers work just like Apple. They design their own SoC, collaborate with lens manufacturers, design their own image processors, apply their own AI etc. The platform isn't a problem for those players. Not a big one anyway.

    That all of that isn't platform wide really isn't an issue.

    The iPhone 6 I have at home takes great photos most of the time but it also takes shitty ones too. The software that ships with it is very unflexible IMO but I like the photos better than on my Android phone.

    Does my phone take crap photos? Not at all. They are mostly great for what I need and my phone only cost 249€. Far less than what the iPhone 6 cost. The iPhone 6 battery now only gives about 15mins of use before shutting down without warning. My phone still lasts around a day. I hear it's going to cost me 110€ for Apple to replace it and I could be up to a week without the phone. That's a lot of lost photos. It's all relative. As someone said, the best camera is the one you have to hand.

    If I'd wanted to spend more on a better camera I could have spent 500€ and got something far better (still for far less than an iPhone7+) but that was one of the tradeoffs I was willing - and able - to make.

    From an Android platform specific perspective things might not be uniform but I don't see individual manufacturers suffering as a result. Nor users.

    Current mid and high end Android cameras are very good, just as Apple's are. I don't see anyone claiming to hate the photos they take.

    No doubt Apple's offerings in the late 2017 lineup will improve things even more but so will Android offerings in the same period. The Mate 10 might be just one you should look out for.

    For me, the single biggest problem with smartphone cameras is the lack of a view finder but that's why I have a real camera too. An issue that is understandable because I never forget that at the end of the day, it's still a mobile phone and while it may be a jack of many trades, I don't expect it to be master of them all.

    Platform issues in this area are overblown when you take average users into account.
    Avon thinks another aspect of Apple is inferior. Wow, what a surprise.

    never mind that the iPhones are the most used camera in the world despite 80% share by android. #2 is canon followed by Samsung.




  • Reply 40 of 46
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,716member

    melgross said:
    foggyhill said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    zouzka said:
    That's not the point he was trying to make…
    But his point doesn't make any sens. "Should I use the Samsung Camera? Or the Android Camera" But on an S8 there is only the Samsung Camera app, so it's not confusing at all.

    " Gundotra is talking about the entire experience, from the lenses to the Phone's hardware, to the software, rather than just lens quality."
    Yeah, big deal, people still think the app, the quality, the experience etc is better on a Pixel.

    It won't take years for them to be on iPhone's level, they already have years ago now.

    And how many are buying a Pixel for this amazing camera? How many Pixel's in general are out there vs any other Android phone?
    Wait, that was not the point he was making.

    But go buy an S8, a LG G6, etc
    They take excellent pictures.
    But you said the experience is better on a Pixel vs an iPhone....I don't care about S8's, LG's, etc. How many professional photo shoots are done on a Pixel, or any Android phone for that matter versus an iPhone 7 Plus? How many professional movies are filmed on any Android phone versus an iPhone 7 Plus? 
    That was just an example, the experience is great on those phones too.

    Hahaha "professional movies" ? Like who the hell cares about that ? Real professionals use pro equipment.
    The rare one you see on certain magazines, it's just marketing.
    Let me know when Oscar winning directors are shooting movies on your knockoff.

    https://www.cultofmac.com/493434/steven-soderberghs-secret-iphone-movie-hollywood-abuzz/
    For how long would Android devices be called as "knockoffs" in this forum? 5 years? 10 years? Billion years? Eternity???? Even if the copying happens between iOS and Android regularly world back and forth? Like the iPhone Pro/X which is going to implement the "near bezel less design" and "OLED display" provided by none other than Samsung? And it is the "copied features" which are considered to be triggering the "super-cycle" after a gap of 3 years!!!
    Blah blah blah blah, do you have a point? Seriously?
     OLED was shit for 5 years still Samsung foisted it on people who still claimed like you do now that Apple should have shifted using it right when it came out!
    There are thousands of pages on places like MacRumors going back years that Apple was behind because they had not switched then and there.
    Samsung basically used their own users as lab rats for years to develop the manufacturign capacity for OLED.
    The reason Apple is going to Samsung is manufacturing capability, not some kind of tech godhood.

    Android as a whole is not a company btw, so again, what's your point?
    With respect to OLED display technology in smartphones, who is the "Original" and who is the "copycat"? Can you answer that question honestly to yourselves? My point was fairly simple - It is ridiculous to call "ALL Android smartphones" as "Knockoffs" when Apple is also copying ideas from Android OEMs. Need proof? Don't look any further than upcoming iPhone Pro.
    It’s pretty clear that apple didn’t use OLEDs because their quality was pretty poor for years. Samsung used them despite that, for marketing reasons. People using Samsung phones had to suffer with these crappy displays until the criticism became so rampant that they had to spend the money to calibrate each one, as Apple had been doing for years for their lcd displays.

    it’s no surprise however, that now with OLED displays being much better, that Apple would begin a move to them.  Copying? I don’t think so.

    apple is so far ahead in so many areas that using the word copying is a joke.
    I'd like to think that the Apple will be supporting, at some point, the UltraHD Premium standard for it's media creation (Final Cut Pro, iMovie), content distribution (iTunes) and devices.

    http://televisions.reviewed.com/news/uhd-alliance-announces-standards-for-premium-4k-tvs
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