maybe someone needs to put chips into weights and machines so that it lods data which can be transferred to the watch or smartphone. just sync before your session and then log out when done and movin on to a new set of weights or machine.
The above posters got me thinking, especially Soli’s
comment: “Perhaps Apple will come out with a universal solution that will allow
all fitness trackers to work with all fitness equipment with ease so that, say,
smart dumbbells can be quickly linked and unlinked to a user's Watch via NFC+BT
with a quick tap.”
IMO, the failing is that a single iDevice can’t possibly
know the type of strength training exercise with only its single accelerometer.
More sensing devices are needed.
Apple already has the tech available in the AirPods. If
Apple could put the accelerometer, W1 chip, battery, and inductive charger in a
strap-like form factor, such straps could be used on the torso and both wrists
and ankles. Once paired with your iDevice, the iDevice would then know the
relative position of these five body parts (relative to each other) and could then
determine if squats, presses, pushups, etc. were occurring.
This tech could be added to make smart equipment, similar to
the Bowflex adjustable dumbbells, which would also feed its relative position to the
iDevice (including the weight setting).
When the workout is done, throw the straps into a special
container (with an inductive charging floor) or the equipment in its resting
place (with inductive charging inbuilt).
Personal biological sensors make more sense for exercise. two people can move the same weight in the same motion with utterly different physiological responses.
As an avid lifter I have some input. I've read before that the reason wrist-worn HR trackers don't offer to do strength training or weights is because of how they work. Unlike swimming or running, lifting is very short moments of intense activity, the limbs get swole and the blood is harder-to/can't-be tracked at the wrist the way it can in normal cardio vascular activities. A chest strap is the answer here.
As for apps, anyone hoping for an automatic way to track your lifts is going to be disappointed because that's a pipe dream, without RFID tags implemented in everything everywhere. It's far easier to just log it with a good lifting app. StrongLifts, Strong, and Stacked are good examples (Strong and Stacked are general trackers for your custom lifting programming, StrongLifts is for the 5x5 linear progression program alone). Basically a digital notebook that makes it easier with taps and rest timers. This is actually very good as it's accurate -- you inputted the data so you know it's good.
I've been tracking for a couple years and it's a workable solution. HR can't be tracked accurately, but the calories can be estimated -- 4-500 for an intense lifting workout of an hour or so. But calories tracking matters less as it's mostly about the gains -- and this is what the trackers apps track and can trend for you. It's pretty nifty. Lifters already should know how many calories they should eating based on their activity level, body fat, and consumption mode (surplus, deficit, maintenance). Good calculators help you plan that and your target macros:
In many ways lifting is a much more personal activity, which varies widely on the individual. There will be no silver bullet. You just have to do the work.
Actually, heart rate can accurately be measured while lifting -- by turning off the wrist monitor and pairing the AW to a chest strap. But: It is still pretty meaningless. You get a few spikes followed by a resting heart rate. It just isn't going to tell you much.
Conversely, endurance sports can use heart rate to track how hard the rest of the body is working -- and the wrist based monitors are fairly accurate.
The difference is: Endurance sports are primarily continuous aerobic activity where cardio-respiratory fitness plays a major role. Lifting is primarily an intermittent, anaerobic activity where cardio-respiratory fitness plays a very minor role.
(First, my apology: for some reason all of my carriage returns have been eliminated from this post -- so it shows up as just a steady stream. Sorry -- blame AI).
Huh?
Even Apple admits that its Apple Watch lacks the physical ability to accurately measure strength training. It's a technological limitation.
First: the only thing it can measure that applies to strength training is heart rate -- but Apple tells you up front that the wrist based heart rate monitor cannot accurately measure heart rate while lifting due to various physiological reasons.
But, there's a more fundamental problem: Originally the Apple Watch was designed to be a fashion accessory with input from medical personnel. But neither understand sports and exercise tracking -- that's why even the existing tracking features (like the rings and the activity app) are modeled after the medical model of "150 minutes of moderate exercise each week". So, even for something like running (which Apple has targeted), the Apple Watch's software simply isn't in the same ball park as the Garmins. Garmin used runners to design their software. Apple used healthcare workers. The difference is dramatic and it shows...
Apple instead defaulted to Nike to develop tracking software. But Nike failed. They designed a pretty band, but that's about it. That leaves the third party apps -- but they too have (mostly) failed because, even though Apple opened up the watch's metrics to them, most of their apps are stilled based on the Watch OS2 paradigm where they run on the phone and communicate with the watch. They just aren't there yet. The
Apple Watch has enormous potential that has not yet been tapped. But, because of technical and physiological issues, it remains to be seen if weight lifting tracking is part of that potential.
Aw, you started off so well. Then you delved into baseless conjecture.
- Please prove that the AW started as a fashion accessory. Because my clear memories of the original rumors were Apple working on a fitness tracker to rival Fitbit.
- You evidently also do not remember the professional runners who trained with a prototype Watch and worked with Apple. Please cite your claim that there were none and only healthcare workers.
- Nike was not tasked with developing the software. Apple does its own software. Please cite otherwise.
You obviously need to pay more attention... Your imagination is interfering with reality.
I just came here to post that I agree there is a hole that I would like someone, preferable apple, to fill. I've often thought about how to accomplish this task but I couldn't come up with a good solution. Weights that could be in constant contact with an AW or an iPhone would be a start, but that has it's own issues. The best would be to create new weights to do this but I suspect most gyms wouldn't be able to afford all new weights and equipment. For the gyms that can't afford it a stop gap would have to be created and I can't imagine a simple solution for that. It would have to be a mixture of new accessories and equipment with a an easy way to tabulate all the data.
Smart clothing will help some of this and put the burden on the customer who wants to track such movements. Also, I'm not sure why the iPhone couldn't be used to visual track the body during a workout and interpret the movements and weights involved, especially with these new 3D facial recognition sensors. Likewise for the watch. But these are all future developments. With the possible exception of Jony Ive, I'm not sure how many of the Apple executive regularly lift weights, so maybe it isn't really a priority for them. I also don't get the sense that the majority of Apple customers are interested in weight training, but that's merely my own anecdotal evidence living in a body conscious city like LA, and observing who is shopping at the Apple Stores on any given day. Serious body builders are not going to find much useful in a digital weight program at this stage of development, but rather for the regular person looking to get free coaching with their fitness, and looking for motivational apps like closing those fitness rings, and reminding them when to stand -- and let's face it, that's who Apple is targeting. There's really no substitute for a professional weight training coach to help a person get into weights, and until Siri becomes a true AI which can witness a persons form and movements, to actually coach a person, then there's little point. Weight training is not about how many calories a person burns, but that seems to be Apple's focus, if in no small part because its low hanging fruit -- and likely the main goal of an overfed Western culture. Until weight lifting becomes more of a main stream focus, and the average Apple customer understands that resistance training is every bit as important as calorie management for overall fitness, I can't see weight training being seen as much more than a niche area for Apple, which is something they don't typically address, and therefore something they aren't likely to put much focus on.
As an avid lifter I have some input. I've read before that the reason wrist-worn HR trackers don't offer to do strength training or weights is because of how they work. Unlike swimming or running, lifting is very short moments of intense activity, the limbs get swole and the blood is harder-to/can't-be tracked at the wrist the way it can in normal cardio vascular activities. A chest strap is the answer here.
As for apps, anyone hoping for an automatic way to track your lifts is going to be disappointed because that's a pipe dream, without RFID tags implemented in everything everywhere. It's far easier to just log it with a good lifting app. StrongLifts, Strong, and Stacked are good examples (Strong and Stacked are general trackers for your custom lifting programming, StrongLifts is for the 5x5 linear progression program alone). Basically a digital notebook that makes it easier with taps and rest timers. This is actually very good as it's accurate -- you inputted the data so you know it's good.
I've been tracking for a couple years and it's a workable solution. HR can't be tracked accurately, but the calories can be estimated -- 4-500 for an intense lifting workout of an hour or so. But calories tracking matters less as it's mostly about the gains -- and this is what the trackers apps track and can trend for you. It's pretty nifty. Lifters already should know how many calories they should eating based on their activity level, body fat, and consumption mode (surplus, deficit, maintenance). Good calculators help you plan that and your target macros:
In many ways lifting is a much more personal activity, which varies widely on the individual. There will be no silver bullet. You just have to do the work.
Actually, heart rate can accurately be measured while lifting -- by turning off the wrist monitor and pairing the AW to a chest strap. But: It is still pretty meaningless. You get a few spikes followed by a resting heart rate. It just isn't going to tell you much.
(First, my apology: for some reason all of my carriage returns have been eliminated from this post -- so it shows up as just a steady stream. Sorry -- blame AI).
Huh?
Even Apple admits that its Apple Watch lacks the physical ability to accurately measure strength training. It's a technological limitation.
First: the only thing it can measure that applies to strength training is heart rate -- but Apple tells you up front that the wrist based heart rate monitor cannot accurately measure heart rate while lifting due to various physiological reasons.
But, there's a more fundamental problem: Originally the Apple Watch was designed to be a fashion accessory with input from medical personnel. But neither understand sports and exercise tracking -- that's why even the existing tracking features (like the rings and the activity app) are modeled after the medical model of "150 minutes of moderate exercise each week". So, even for something like running (which Apple has targeted), the Apple Watch's software simply isn't in the same ball park as the Garmins. Garmin used runners to design their software. Apple used healthcare workers. The difference is dramatic and it shows...
Apple instead defaulted to Nike to develop tracking software. But Nike failed. They designed a pretty band, but that's about it. That leaves the third party apps -- but they too have (mostly) failed because, even though Apple opened up the watch's metrics to them, most of their apps are stilled based on the Watch OS2 paradigm where they run on the phone and communicate with the watch. They just aren't there yet. The
Apple Watch has enormous potential that has not yet been tapped. But, because of technical and physiological issues, it remains to be seen if weight lifting tracking is part of that potential.
Aw, you started off so well. Then you delved into baseless conjecture.
- Please prove that the AW started as a fashion accessory. Because my clear memories of the original rumors were Apple working on a fitness tracker to rival Fitbit.
- You evidently also do not remember the professional runners who trained with a prototype Watch and worked with Apple. Please cite your claim that there were none and only healthcare workers.
- Nike was not tasked with developing the software. Apple does its own software. Please cite otherwise.
You obviously need to pay more attention... Your imagination is interfering with reality.
Ok, so you can’t backup your baseless conjecture presented as facts. Got it.
I just came here to post that I agree there is a hole that I would like someone, preferable apple, to fill. I've often thought about how to accomplish this task but I couldn't come up with a good solution. Weights that could be in constant contact with an AW or an iPhone would be a start, but that has it's own issues. The best would be to create new weights to do this but I suspect most gyms wouldn't be able to afford all new weights and equipment. For the gyms that can't afford it a stop gap would have to be created and I can't imagine a simple solution for that. It would have to be a mixture of new accessories and equipment with a an easy way to tabulate all the data.
Smart clothing will help some of this and put the burden on the customer who wants to track such movements. Also, I'm not sure why the iPhone couldn't be used to visual track the body during a workout and interpret the movements and weights involved, especially with these new 3D facial recognition sensors. Likewise for the watch. But these are all future developments. With the possible exception of Jony Ive, I'm not sure how many of the Apple executive regularly lift weights, so maybe it isn't really a priority for them. I also don't get the sense that the majority of Apple customers are interested in weight training, but that's merely my own anecdotal evidence living in a body conscious city like LA, and observing who is shopping at the Apple Stores on any given day. Serious body builders are not going to find much useful in a digital weight program at this stage of development, but rather for the regular person looking to get free coaching with their fitness, and looking for motivational apps like closing those fitness rings, and reminding them when to stand -- and let's face it, that's who Apple is targeting. There's really no substitute for a professional weight training coach to help a person get into weights, and until Siri becomes a true AI which can witness a persons form and movements, to actually coach a person, then there's little point. Weight training is not about how many calories a person burns, but that seems to be Apple's focus, if in no small part because its low hanging fruit -- and likely the main goal of an overfed Western culture. Until weight lifting becomes more of a main stream focus, and the average Apple customer understands that resistance training is every bit as important as calorie management for overall fitness, I can't see weight training being seen as much more than a niche area for Apple, which is something they don't typically address, and therefore something they aren't likely to put much focus on.
Lifting is enough of an interest that Apple highlighted the StrongLifts app in one of their commercials. It’s not the interest, it’s the physiology of lifting vs wrist-worn heart rate monitoring. It’s doesnt lend itself to HR monitoring, nor is that of much importance to a lifter. Tracking your weights is, but that won’t be automated via an app any time soon. Gyms would have to replace all of their barbells, plates, and dumbbells with smart versions, and I don’t see it happening any time soon.
A well designed app that reduces the friction of recording your lifts is the working solution. Apps like StrongLifts and Strong do it very well.
Thanks Roger for raising this issue, and by the strength of the response, I’m not alone.
I use Full Fitness by Mehrdad Mehrain, so I take my iPhone7, AirPods and Apple Watch (Series 2) to the gym. Full Fitness is OK, but annoyingly lists the exercises in simple alphabetical order (e.g. “cable biceps curl” instead of “biceps, curl, cable”) so it can be hard to find the right exercise when preparing a routine. Also, it doesn’t provide a field for duration for exercises like the plank and doesn’t allow a field for entering bodyweight and subtracting the assist weight on chin-up/dip machines. Entering weights and reps during the routine is a bit of a drag and it slows the tempo. Also, the only info recorded by the Health App is whatever the Apple Watch provides, if I remember to activate “Other - Strength Training”, which I often forget, and there goes that ring for the day – doh!
To me a good solution would be for Apple to provide/sponsor an international standard for NFC communication with cardio and weight machines, free weights AND the gym scales. So you would leave your iPhone in your locker, activate “Strength Training – Routine A” (or perhaps “Full Fitness – Routine A”, if third party apps are allowed access), tap-on to the scales, stand on the scales and get your body weight, your AirPods would announce which machine to go to and what weight to set, tap-on to that machine, set the weight, start the set, pause for at least ten seconds and the set records automatically, do the next set, etc. and so on. Calisthenics and free weight exercises would be more difficult to log, but perhaps your AirPods would announce the exercise, you perform the exercise and then simply say the number of reps, Siri reads back the number and you say “Yes” (or “No” and then repeat until s/he gets it right) and move on to the next exercise. At the end accurate stats are sent to the Health App.
By sponsoring a standard Apple increases the ecosystem while allowing inventiveness in software and accessories, so all we really need is the standard and third party access to the little running man on our Apple Watches.
Thanks Roger for raising this issue, and by the strength of the response, I’m not alone.
I use Full Fitness by Mehrdad Mehrain, so I take my iPhone7, AirPods and Apple Watch (Series 2) to the gym. Full Fitness is OK, but annoyingly lists the exercises in simple alphabetical order (e.g. “cable biceps curl” instead of “biceps, curl, cable”) so it can be hard to find the right exercise when preparing a routine. Also, it doesn’t provide a field for duration for exercises like the plank and doesn’t allow a field for entering bodyweight and subtracting the assist weight on chin-up/dip machines. Entering weights and reps during the routine is a bit of a drag and it slows the tempo. Also, the only info recorded by the Health App is whatever the Apple Watch provides, if I remember to activate “Other - Strength Training”, which I often forget, and there goes that ring for the day – doh!
To me a good solution would be for Apple to provide/sponsor an international standard for NFC communication with cardio and weight machines, free weights AND the gym scales. So you would leave your iPhone in your locker, activate “Strength Training – Routine A” (or perhaps “Full Fitness – Routine A”, if third party apps are allowed access), tap-on to the scales, stand on the scales and get your body weight, your AirPods would announce which machine to go to and what weight to set, tap-on to that machine, set the weight, start the set, pause for at least ten seconds and the set records automatically, do the next set, etc. and so on. Calisthenics and free weight exercises would be more difficult to log, but perhaps your AirPods would announce the exercise, you perform the exercise and then simply say the number of reps, Siri reads back the number and you say “Yes” (or “No” and then repeat until s/he gets it right) and move on to the next exercise. At the end accurate stats are sent to the Health App.
By sponsoring a standard Apple increases the ecosystem while allowing inventiveness in software and accessories, so all we really need is the standard and third party access to the little running man on our Apple Watches.
Apple will most likely never allow NFC to be accessed that way. They'll require cardio machine makers to license home kit, or something like that to be compatible. I chuckle at all the cardio machines at my gym with a now useless built-in 30-pin dock connector.
As I mentioned above, smart clothing is he most likely way to go, as it puts the burden on the consumer who wants to use these kinds of apps, much like Nike+ did. Add to that Apple leverging face recognition sensors in both the phone and watch and at most gyms might have to bar code their weights and equipment for the app to properly calibrate clothing feedback with gear utilized. The average joe, which in my mind represents Apples core customer, is only going to see a benefit if the task is virtually automated.otherwise, they'll lose interest. I see plenty of people at the gym who get started with or without a trainer and then move onto their programs, walking around with a notebook to log their workouts. This might last a few months, but usually, I sense they've become self conscious as none of the other body builders are doing that, and it becomes burdensome and tedious, not to mention somewhat useless unless they're taking the time to go home and any live the data. It's one thing for a bodybuilder to do this, but quite another for the average Apple customer to do it.
Thanks Roger for raising this issue, and by the strength of the response, I’m not alone.
I use Full Fitness by Mehrdad Mehrain, so I take my iPhone7, AirPods and Apple Watch (Series 2) to the gym. Full Fitness is OK, but annoyingly lists the exercises in simple alphabetical order (e.g. “cable biceps curl” instead of “biceps, curl, cable”) so it can be hard to find the right exercise when preparing a routine. Also, it doesn’t provide a field for duration for exercises like the plank and doesn’t allow a field for entering bodyweight and subtracting the assist weight on chin-up/dip machines. Entering weights and reps during the routine is a bit of a drag and it slows the tempo. Also, the only info recorded by the Health App is whatever the Apple Watch provides, if I remember to activate “Other - Strength Training”, which I often forget, and there goes that ring for the day – doh!
To me a good solution would be for Apple to provide/sponsor an international standard for NFC communication with cardio and weight machines, free weights AND the gym scales. So you would leave your iPhone in your locker, activate “Strength Training – Routine A” (or perhaps “Full Fitness – Routine A”, if third party apps are allowed access), tap-on to the scales, stand on the scales and get your body weight, your AirPods would announce which machine to go to and what weight to set, tap-on to that machine, set the weight, start the set, pause for at least ten seconds and the set records automatically, do the next set, etc. and so on. Calisthenics and free weight exercises would be more difficult to log, but perhaps your AirPods would announce the exercise, you perform the exercise and then simply say the number of reps, Siri reads back the number and you say “Yes” (or “No” and then repeat until s/he gets it right) and move on to the next exercise. At the end accurate stats are sent to the Health App.
By sponsoring a standard Apple increases the ecosystem while allowing inventiveness in software and accessories, so all we really need is the standard and third party access to the little running man on our Apple Watches.
Apple will most likely never allow NFC to be accessed that way. They'll require cardio machine makers to license home kit, or something like that to be compatible. I chuckle at all the cardio machines at my gym with a now useless built-in 30-pin dock connector.
As I mentioned above, smart clothing is he most likely way to go, as it puts the burden on the consumer who wants to use these kinds of apps, much like Nike+ did. Add to that Apple leverging face recognition sensors in both the phone and watch and at most gyms might have to bar code their weights and equipment for the app to properly calibrate clothing feedback with gear utilized. The average joe, which in my mind represents Apples core customer, is only going to see a benefit if the task is virtually automated.otherwise, they'll lose interest. I see plenty of people at the gym who get started with or without a trainer and then move onto their programs, walking around with a notebook to log their workouts. This might last a few months, but usually, I sense they've become self conscious as none of the other body builders are doing that, and it becomes burdensome and tedious, not to mention somewhat useless unless they're taking the time to go home and any live the data. It's one thing for a bodybuilder to do this, but quite another for the average Apple customer to do it.
Hi Mac_128, I'm happy with extending HomeKit to gym equipment (I should go and register "GymKit" right now), or a universal QR code system for gym equipment, but a code for every weight sounds fiddly. Equally happy if smart clothing works, as long as it's not too pricy. As you say, the main thing is to achieve ease of use and intelligent feedback into your exercise routines. I realised after I posted that any use of Siri to record reps etc. would require gyms to turn down their atrocious musak, which is probably not going to happen, even though we are all wearing AirPods etc. to avoid listening to it.
I'm perplexed at why someone hasn't taken a better stab at strength data too. I walked the floor at IHRSA, the largest fitness equipment conference in the U.S, this year in L.A. and everything is focused on cardio - mostly treadmills and stationary bikes.
I recently came across Drive Interactive. It looks like they are working on a home solution for strength with data built in. I think it looks promising.
I found this video on Youtube: Check out around 2:40. They capture resistance, reps, energy, and power and the exercise.
I'm perplexed at why someone hasn't taken a better stab at strength data too. I walked the floor at IHRSA, the largest fitness equipment conference in the U.S, this year in L.A. and everything is focused on cardio - mostly treadmills and stationary bikes.
I recently came across Drive Interactive. It looks like they are working on a home solution for strength with data built in. I think it looks promising.
I found this video on Youtube: Check out around 2:40. They capture resistance, reps, energy, and power and the exercise.
I will be interesting to see how they develop.
Thanks Larry, That's a very nice looking machine and it should not be too difficult to integrate it with the Health App.
Looks like we all forgot that GymKit is already a thing. It is in watchOS 4 and it allows users to wireless sync fitness data between cardio machines at a gym and their Apple Watches by tapping on an NFC pad attached to the machine.
Looks like we all forgot that GymKit is already a thing. It is in watchOS 4 and it allows users to wireless sync fitness data between cardio machines at a gym and their Apple Watches by tapping on an NFC pad attached to the machine.
It was breifly mentioned on Tuesday. I don’t recall a mention of it before that.
Comments
The above posters got me thinking, especially Soli’s comment: “Perhaps Apple will come out with a universal solution that will allow all fitness trackers to work with all fitness equipment with ease so that, say, smart dumbbells can be quickly linked and unlinked to a user's Watch via NFC+BT with a quick tap.”
IMO, the failing is that a single iDevice can’t possibly know the type of strength training exercise with only its single accelerometer. More sensing devices are needed.
Apple already has the tech available in the AirPods. If Apple could put the accelerometer, W1 chip, battery, and inductive charger in a strap-like form factor, such straps could be used on the torso and both wrists and ankles. Once paired with your iDevice, the iDevice would then know the relative position of these five body parts (relative to each other) and could then determine if squats, presses, pushups, etc. were occurring.
This tech could be added to make smart equipment, similar to the Bowflex adjustable dumbbells, which would also feed its relative position to the iDevice (including the weight setting).
When the workout is done, throw the straps into a special container (with an inductive charging floor) or the equipment in its resting place (with inductive charging inbuilt).
Of course, such a setup would be for the fanatical fringe at first. Lest I remind you we now have such IoT creations as the smart cup, smart diapers, and smart cutlery.
two people can move the same weight in the same motion with utterly different physiological responses.
Conversely, endurance sports can use heart rate to track how hard the rest of the body is working -- and the wrist based monitors are fairly accurate.
The difference is:
Endurance sports are primarily continuous aerobic activity where cardio-respiratory fitness plays a major role.
Lifting is primarily an intermittent, anaerobic activity where cardio-respiratory fitness plays a very minor role.
GeorgeBMac said: Ok, so you can’t backup your baseless conjecture presented as facts. Got it.
Lifting is enough of an interest that Apple highlighted the StrongLifts app in one of their commercials. It’s not the interest, it’s the physiology of lifting vs wrist-worn heart rate monitoring. It’s doesnt lend itself to HR monitoring, nor is that of much importance to a lifter. Tracking your weights is, but that won’t be automated via an app any time soon. Gyms would have to replace all of their barbells, plates, and dumbbells with smart versions, and I don’t see it happening any time soon.
A well designed app that reduces the friction of recording your lifts is the working solution. Apps like StrongLifts and Strong do it very well.
As I mentioned above, smart clothing is he most likely way to go, as it puts the burden on the consumer who wants to use these kinds of apps, much like Nike+ did. Add to that Apple leverging face recognition sensors in both the phone and watch and at most gyms might have to bar code their weights and equipment for the app to properly calibrate clothing feedback with gear utilized. The average joe, which in my mind represents Apples core customer, is only going to see a benefit if the task is virtually automated.otherwise, they'll lose interest. I see plenty of people at the gym who get started with or without a trainer and then move onto their programs, walking around with a notebook to log their workouts. This might last a few months, but usually, I sense they've become self conscious as none of the other body builders are doing that, and it becomes burdensome and tedious, not to mention somewhat useless unless they're taking the time to go home and any live the data. It's one thing for a bodybuilder to do this, but quite another for the average Apple customer to do it.
I recently came across Drive Interactive. It looks like they are working on a home solution for strength with data built in. I think it looks promising.
I found this video on Youtube:
I will be interesting to see how they develop.