According to rumors, Apple has been "struggling" to keep Touch ID active in the iPhone X. Touch ID would be in the other 2 phone, so it would stand to reason that apple pay must recognize both face id and Touch ID as verified forms of authentication. Wether they are used individually or pairs together, remains to be seen.
Rayz2016 said: It'll work the same as TouchID: you will need to press or touch a button to activate it. This is probably why the power button has doubled in size for no apparent reason.
So, you mean.... something like it will detect your face and then offer to unlock/pay... and then anyone could press the power button to confirm? Or, do you mean it will have TouchID built into the power button? (In which case, what's the point of Face ID?)
Are you serious? You’re standing at the POS terminal at Whole Foods, you waive your NFC equipped iphone over the payment contacts to initiate a payment, it scans your face, it asks you to confirm, AND THEN a bad guy runs up out of no where to push the button and complete the transaction. THATS what you’re worried about?
That is an absurd scenario. Sorry but that’s exactly how it’s going to work, and nobody will have a problem with it. Including you.
macplusplus said: A code string revealed after a previous leak (HomePod firmware) points to multi biometrics: canPerformMultiBiometrics. We can assume at some point both TouchID and FaceID may coexist.
Ok, if that's the direction they go, I guess I don't have an issue with it, as long as I can set which works and how/when. I'm not opposed to Face detection (well, aside from some Orwellian implications, for which it's already too late), but I just don't think it's nearly as good of UI/UX as TouchID. (No matter how good it is at detection/rejection.)
StrangeDays said: Are you serious? You’re standing at the POS terminal at Whole Foods, you waive your NFC equipped iphone over the payment contacts to initiate a payment, it scans your face, it asks you to confirm, AND THEN a bad guy runs up out of no where to push the button and complete the transaction. THATS what you’re worried about?
That is an absurd scenario. Sorry but that’s exactly how it’s going to work, and nobody will have a problem with it. Including you.
Not the exact situation, but yes. Having a device auto-unlock when the camera picks up your face isn't as secure as having to place your finger on a sensor. I don't want to walk past my phone on my desk and have it unlock. I don't want someone on a train/bus to be able to grab it and point it at my shocked expression to unlock before they run away. I don't want a police to be able to cuff me, take my phone, aim it at me and they are in. Sorry, that's not secure, that's stupid.
macplusplus said: A code string revealed after a previous leak (HomePod firmware) points to multi biometrics: canPerformMultiBiometrics. We can assume at some point both TouchID and FaceID may coexist.
Ok, if that's the direction they go, I guess I don't have an issue with it, as long as I can set which works and how/when. I'm not opposed to Face detection (well, aside from some Orwellian implications, for which it's already too late), but I just don't think it's nearly as good of UI/UX as TouchID. (No matter how good it is at detection/rejection.)
StrangeDays said: Are you serious? You’re standing at the POS terminal at Whole Foods, you waive your NFC equipped iphone over the payment contacts to initiate a payment, it scans your face, it asks you to confirm, AND THEN a bad guy runs up out of no where to push the button and complete the transaction. THATS what you’re worried about?
That is an absurd scenario. Sorry but that’s exactly how it’s going to work, and nobody will have a problem with it. Including you.
Not the exact situation, but yes. Having a device auto-unlock when the camera picks up your face isn't as secure as having to place your finger on a sensor. I don't want to walk past my phone on my desk and have it unlock. I don't want someone on a train/bus to be able to grab it and point it at my shocked expression to unlock before they run away. I don't want a police to be able to cuff me, take my phone, aim it at me and they are in. Sorry, that's not secure, that's stupid.
I'd say it's a missed opportunity for them to not do a callback to the Finder's icon (side on and front on simultaneously), but I understand that their tech probably can't recognize a face that is a full 90º away from the sensors.
macplusplus said: A code string revealed after a previous leak (HomePod firmware) points to multi biometrics: canPerformMultiBiometrics. We can assume at some point both TouchID and FaceID may coexist.
Ok, if that's the direction they go, I guess I don't have an issue with it, as long as I can set which works and how/when. I'm not opposed to Face detection (well, aside from some Orwellian implications, for which it's already too late), but I just don't think it's nearly as good of UI/UX as TouchID. (No matter how good it is at detection/rejection.)
StrangeDays said: Are you serious? You’re standing at the POS terminal at Whole Foods, you waive your NFC equipped iphone over the payment contacts to initiate a payment, it scans your face, it asks you to confirm, AND THEN a bad guy runs up out of no where to push the button and complete the transaction. THATS what you’re worried about?
That is an absurd scenario. Sorry but that’s exactly how it’s going to work, and nobody will have a problem with it. Including you.
Not the exact situation, but yes. Having a device auto-unlock when the camera picks up your face isn't as secure as having to place your finger on a sensor. I don't want to walk past my phone on my desk and have it unlock. I don't want someone on a train/bus to be able to grab it and point it at my shocked expression to unlock before they run away. I don't want a police to be able to cuff me, take my phone, aim it at me and they are in. Sorry, that's not secure, that's stupid.
What if someone takes your phone then cuts your face off and wears it like Hannibal Lecter to use your phone to go on a shopping spree all day? What then?
fastasleep said: What if someone takes your phone then cuts your face off and wears it like Hannibal Lecter to use your phone to go on a shopping spree all day? What then?
The point is that it's less secure, and a difference in UX/workflow. Different people care more or less about that, but Apple has - in the past at least - had a pretty good reputation for both security and UX. It would be a shame to seem them move in the wrong direction.
According to the patent, one must bring the device to a "use position" to activate Face ID and unlock the phone.
According to the strings in the leaked GM, the phone must be hold within a range of 10 - 20 inch, but it is not clear whether those strings are related to the initial setup or regular use of Face ID.
So "unlocking at every angle" appears more and more as an urban legend, I'm afraid...
macplusplus said: So "unlocking at every angle" appears more and more as an urban legend, I'm afraid...
At least that would be a good thing. However, then I'm not seeing the advantage here over TouchID, except that it allows Apple to get rid of another button and make the screen bigger. Those aren't necessarily bad things, but it shows that now port or particular feature is safe it if gets in the way.
StrangeDays said: Are you serious? You’re standing at the POS terminal at Whole Foods, you waive your NFC equipped iphone over the payment contacts to initiate a payment, it scans your face, it asks you to confirm, AND THEN a bad guy runs up out of no where to push the button and complete the transaction. THATS what you’re worried about?
That is an absurd scenario. Sorry but that’s exactly how it’s going to work, and nobody will have a problem with it. Including you.
Not the exact situation, but yes. Having a device auto-unlock when the camera picks up your face isn't as secure as having to place your finger on a sensor. I don't want to walk past my phone on my desk and have it unlock. I don't want someone on a train/bus to be able to grab it and point it at my shocked expression to unlock before they run away. I don't want a police to be able to cuff me, take my phone, aim it at me and they are in. Sorry, that's not secure, that's stupid.
But that isn't what Rayz described. He said if it requires an on-screen button-tap to complete the POS authentication it's in no way different than current.
As for your police scenario, there have already been multiple articles about the feature to disable biometric authentication via rapid pressing of the power button.
I swear these doomsday edge case scenarios people are dreaming up now are exactly like the same panicked worries about robbers chopping off fingers for Touch ID. All nonsense.
fastasleep said: What if someone takes your phone then cuts your face off and wears it like Hannibal Lecter to use your phone to go on a shopping spree all day? What then?
The point is that it's less secure, and a difference in UX/workflow. Different people care more or less about that, but Apple has - in the past at least - had a pretty good reputation for both security and UX. It would be a shame to seem them move in the wrong direction.
There is no wrong direction here. The guessed workflow is exactly the same as touch ID's -- waive phone over NFC contact, it pops up a button to confirm, tap, it scans (face instead of finger), done. Exactly the same.
As has been said 1000 times when touch ID came out, biometric is more convenient, not more secure. That's why you still have to use your passcode after a reboot, after a certain time limit, etc.
StrangeDays said: But that isn't what Rayz described. He said if it requires an on-screen button-tap to complete the POS authentication it's in no way different than current.
As for your police scenario, there have already been multiple articles about the feature to disable biometric authentication via rapid pressing of the power button. I swear these doomsday edge case scenarios people are dreaming up now are exactly like the same panicked worries about robbers chopping off fingers for Touch ID. All nonsense.
I'd rather it be as secure as possible, even w/o having to rapidly press some other button to secure it. But, I'm talking more about unlock than Apple Pay. What I'm reading now about having to pick it up, and move it into some position... then it unlocks... makes more sense. I still don't think that's quite as secure. It's also a different workflow for some, as I could have my phone mounted to the car-dash and just put my finger on the sensor. Some will prefer the *NEW* workflow, some will hate it, I'm guessing.
re: doomsday - unfortunately, I think such times are coming more quickly than any of us might like. And, I don't think it will be just 'bad-guys' who are impacted.
StrangeDays said: There is no wrong direction here. The guessed workflow is exactly the same as touch ID's -- waive phone over NFC contact, it pops up a button to confirm, tap, it scans (face instead of finger), done. Exactly the same.
As has been said 1000 times when touch ID came out, biometric is more convenient, not more secure. That's why you still have to use your passcode after a reboot, after a certain time limit, etc.
As above, that's OK for ApplePay (maybe), but what about general unlock. (I've never used ApplePay, so I'm unfamiliar with all the scenarios with that.)
In regards to security, there are two aspects... one is the technical, the other is the workflow/real-world implications. Maybe a 6 digit code is harder to break than a fingerprint... though I'm not sure about that. But, if someone gets the code, then the fingerprint is better. If someone grabs your hand and presses your finger on the sensor, then the code is maybe better. As for the code after reboot... isn't that more so you don't forget it, or a safety precaution, rather than technical strength (i.e.: after a time, reboot, or pressing power button several times, it keeps bio from being used?)
It wouldn't say "Use Apple Pay with your face" for something happening automatically. Face ID must be triggered some way. Maybe the detection of the NFC is enough to enter into Face ID mode, without moving the device to the "use position". And Face ID may also work from distances greater than 20 inch.
macplusplus said: It wouldn't say "Use Apple Pay with your face" for something happening automatically. Face ID must be triggered some way. Maybe the detection of the NFC is enough to enter into Face ID mode, without moving the device to the "use position". And Face ID may also work from distances greater than 20 inch.
It will be a new trend to compliment the selfie. You wave your hand/phone over the payment terminal, then bring it up in front of your face and grin. Maybe someone can invent a catchy dance routine for upcoming Apple commercials.
macplusplus said: A code string revealed after a previous leak (HomePod firmware) points to multi biometrics: canPerformMultiBiometrics. We can assume at some point both TouchID and FaceID may coexist.
Ok, if that's the direction they go, I guess I don't have an issue with it, as long as I can set which works and how/when. I'm not opposed to Face detection (well, aside from some Orwellian implications, for which it's already too late), but I just don't think it's nearly as good of UI/UX as TouchID. (No matter how good it is at detection/rejection.)
StrangeDays said: Are you serious? You’re standing at the POS terminal at Whole Foods, you waive your NFC equipped iphone over the payment contacts to initiate a payment, it scans your face, it asks you to confirm, AND THEN a bad guy runs up out of no where to push the button and complete the transaction. THATS what you’re worried about?
That is an absurd scenario. Sorry but that’s exactly how it’s going to work, and nobody will have a problem with it. Including you.
Not the exact situation, but yes. Having a device auto-unlock when the camera picks up your face isn't as secure as having to place your finger on a sensor. I don't want to walk past my phone on my desk and have it unlock. I don't want someone on a train/bus to be able to grab it and point it at my shocked expression to unlock before they run away. I don't want a police to be able to cuff me, take my phone, aim it at me and they are in. Sorry, that's not secure, that's stupid.
How does that different when someone pull your finger and unlock your phone? When the bad guy want to steal, he would do anything.
Besides it's too early to claim that Face ID is not as secure as Touch ID seeing that everyone is just guessing how it would work.
Comments
That is an absurd scenario. Sorry but that’s exactly how it’s going to work, and nobody will have a problem with it. Including you.
Not the exact situation, but yes. Having a device auto-unlock when the camera picks up your face isn't as secure as having to place your finger on a sensor. I don't want to walk past my phone on my desk and have it unlock. I don't want someone on a train/bus to be able to grab it and point it at my shocked expression to unlock before they run away. I don't want a police to be able to cuff me, take my phone, aim it at me and they are in. Sorry, that's not secure, that's stupid.
According to the strings in the leaked GM, the phone must be hold within a range of 10 - 20 inch, but it is not clear whether those strings are related to the initial setup or regular use of Face ID.
So "unlocking at every angle" appears more and more as an urban legend, I'm afraid...
As for your police scenario, there have already been multiple articles about the feature to disable biometric authentication via rapid pressing of the power button.
I swear these doomsday edge case scenarios people are dreaming up now are exactly like the same panicked worries about robbers chopping off fingers for Touch ID. All nonsense.
There is no wrong direction here. The guessed workflow is exactly the same as touch ID's -- waive phone over NFC contact, it pops up a button to confirm, tap, it scans (face instead of finger), done. Exactly the same.
As has been said 1000 times when touch ID came out, biometric is more convenient, not more secure. That's why you still have to use your passcode after a reboot, after a certain time limit, etc.
re: doomsday - unfortunately, I think such times are coming more quickly than any of us might like. And, I don't think it will be just 'bad-guys' who are impacted.
As above, that's OK for ApplePay (maybe), but what about general unlock. (I've never used ApplePay, so I'm unfamiliar with all the scenarios with that.)
In regards to security, there are two aspects... one is the technical, the other is the workflow/real-world implications. Maybe a 6 digit code is harder to break than a fingerprint... though I'm not sure about that. But, if someone gets the code, then the fingerprint is better. If someone grabs your hand and presses your finger on the sensor, then the code is maybe better. As for the code after reboot... isn't that more so you don't forget it, or a safety precaution, rather than technical strength (i.e.: after a time, reboot, or pressing power button several times, it keeps bio from being used?)
Besides it's too early to claim that Face ID is not as secure as Touch ID seeing that everyone is just guessing how it would work.