Jony Ive recalls how Steve Jobs taught him to say no, especially when it hurts to do it

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 39
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 280member

    While disconcerting to some, the notch speaks to function by saying that something is going on in this space.  The protruding camera lens also says that part of the iPhone is doing something special.  They are both forms that at some level speak the function.

    Without having used the iPhone X over a period of time it’s difficult to really know if the notch is a good or bad design choice.  Time will be the ultimate arbiter.

  • Reply 22 of 39
    plovell said:
    Camera Bump? I am not a fan. I realize that the size of the camera is the constraint so work with that. Make the phone just a bit thicker so it has better battery life. That would also have gone a long way to avoid "bendgate". Extreme thin-ness is way overrated.
    The thinness is the result of the increased display size. iPhone SE is not thin, for example. The Watch is absolutely not thin, it is even thick as a brick. So Apple is not obsessed with thinness. People already use the iPhone in sleeves and the camera bump disappears. Making it thicker would make it harder to use single handed, increasing the number of drops and repairs.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 39
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,556member
    It’s a shame Steve’s no longer here to break the laws of physics. 

    Which of course, he never did, though the “if Steve were alive cult” seem have forgotten that part of the reason the G4 Cube failed was because he couldn’t.  

    And what’s really ironic about the “if Steve were alive” cult is how they’ve forgotten one of his most valuable lessons: know when it’s time to move on. That’s why he didn’t waste his time bleating on about the good old days.  
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 39
    macxpressmacxpress Posts: 4,760member
     Steve was wrong quite often  - remember the cube ?
    I could see Apple making a new Cube at some point, but much, much smaller. A powerful computing device the size of a sugar cube, for example.
    Its called the Mac mini....

    I didn't really see anything wrong with the PowerMac G4 Cube. What killed it was the price. You could get a regular PowerMac G4 tower for just a little more and anyone that didn't want to spend that kind of money got an iMac G3. Personally, I loved the G4 Cube. This one of Apple's attempts to make a "pro-sumer" type Mac with expandable RAM, HD, and graphics card and yes, it failed, but again mainly because of price as I remember it. 
    anantksundaramwatto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 39
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,843member
    sdw2001 said:
    justme12 said:
    Hey Jony - you should have said no to the camera bump and the notch. Steve not only would have said no - he would have laughed that you thought they were design options. 
    Another guy who doesn't get how things work in real life. There are what we in real life call "constraints", such as the physics and physical space required for light optics in lens elements. Note that nearly every single leading smartphone camera now has a bump. And guess what? Non-OCD normal people don't give a shit. 

    As for trotting out Jobs ghost, congrats on using a very old, very bogus troll trope. You don't know what he would or would not have done or thought because you are a random person a rumors site with no actual personal knowledge or data relevant to anything other than spouting off personal opinions. And you know what they say about opinions and assholes.
    As much as I think justme12 is going overboard with those criticisms, I do think he has a point.  Steve probably would have said no to the bump, and maybe the notch.  The former is exactly the kind of detail that would send him into a rage.  This is the guy that had to make sure the original Mac had wiring that was straight and clean aesthetically...inside the machine.  

    I also think you're going overboard yourself.  You don't need to attack him.  He  has every right to express his opinion.  Steve's penchant for detail and smooth, sleek design was as well known as his temper.  You don't need "data" to opine on what Steve may have done.  We know who he was.  We know the kind of products he'd get behind.  Aesthetics were everything to him.  This is the guy who approved the Cube and the sunflower iMac for Christ's sake!  
    Yes, and iPod socks. And the puck mouse. And all kinds of other ugly shit that didn't always work well. 

    Again, neither he nor you nor I nor anyone random on this forum can say what Jobs would or would not have done. It's a complete fallacy to attempt to validate your opinion by using fantasy-land as evidence. It's not evidence because it's fantasy written in your head. You simply cannot say nor can almost anyone.

    Curious that you say I attacked him. Incorrect. I criticized a weak idea. Big difference. I'm not here to validate everybody's opinions equally.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 26 of 39
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,843member

    plovell said:
    Camera Bump? I am not a fan. I realize that the size of the camera is the constraint so work with that. Make the phone just a bit thicker so it has better battery life. That would also have gone a long way to avoid "bendgate". Extreme thin-ness is way overrated.
    Nope because a thicker phone is a heavier and bulkier phone, and those compromises for the benefit of no camera ring is a pretty poor decision. The solution to the bendgate was using harder materials, as they did in the next iteration.

    The OCD of techie forum readers is not a reason to make devices thicker.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 39
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,843member

    tzeshan said:
    thompr said:
    justme12 said:
    Hey Jony - you should have said no to the camera bump and the notch. Steve not only would have said no - he would have laughed that you thought they were design options. 
    Jobs gave us the hockey-puck mouse and the iPod HiFi BoomBox.  He wasn't perfect.  People forget that.

    Jobs knew very well that engineering trades had to be made and that some blemishes may have to appear in his products until the trades could be modified through the passage of time & improvement of tech.  The first iPhone lacked 3G, and it took several incarnations of iOS before copy/paste was even included.

    So when someone says "Jobs would never have allowed <fill in the blank>", I have to laugh and say, "how the f*** do you know what he would have allowed if you don't know what all the trades are?"
    This is pretty dumb.  You make the assumption every little product is designed by Jobs. Jobs is not superman.  If he can do that Apple will not need to hire so many engineers. Jobs was only focusing on some products that can turn Apple around from the Windows juggernaut . 
    But likewise Jobs wouldn't have somehow made every single product today better just because he was still alive. He was not a superman as you say. Point is (which should be obvious) trotted out Jobs' ghost at every opportunity to claim he would have done X better is just idiotic. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 39
    ariearie Posts: 26member
    sdw2001 said:
    justme12 said:
    Hey Jony - you should have said no to the camera bump and the notch. Steve not only would have said no - he would have laughed that you thought they were design options. 
    Another guy who doesn't get how things work in real life. There are what we in real life call "constraints", such as the physics and physical space required for light optics in lens elements. Note that nearly every single leading smartphone camera now has a bump. And guess what? Non-OCD normal people don't give a shit. 

    As for trotting out Jobs ghost, congrats on using a very old, very bogus troll trope. You don't know what he would or would not have done or thought because you are a random person a rumors site with no actual personal knowledge or data relevant to anything other than spouting off personal opinions. And you know what they say about opinions and assholes.
    As much as I think justme12 is going overboard with those criticisms, I do think he has a point.  Steve probably would have said no to the bump, and maybe the notch.  The former is exactly the kind of detail that would send him into a rage.  This is the guy that had to make sure the original Mac had wiring that was straight and clean aesthetically...inside the machine.  

    I also think you're going overboard yourself.  You don't need to attack him.  He  has every right to express his opinion.  Steve's penchant for detail and smooth, sleek design was as well known as his temper.  You don't need "data" to opine on what Steve may have done.  We know who he was.  We know the kind of products he'd get behind.  Aesthetics were everything to him.  This is the guy who approved the Cube and the sunflower iMac for Christ's sake!  
    Yes, and iPod socks. And the puck mouse. And all kinds of other ugly shit that didn't always work well. 

    Again, neither he nor you nor I nor anyone random on this forum can say what Jobs would or would not have done. It's a complete fallacy to attempt to validate your opinion by using fantasy-land as evidence. It's not evidence because it's fantasy written in your head. You simply cannot say nor can almost anyone.

    Curious that you say I attacked him. Incorrect. I criticized a weak idea. Big difference. I'm not here to validate everybody's opinions equally.
    Sorry to disagree but The IPod is great, I am in fact still using the classic 160 GB, last generation, and in my humble opinion it is one of the greatest designed I have seen (magnificent object, great handling, and solid).  When I don’t want to listen to music on my iPhone/iPad...I used the IPod.  Music and music only...
    apple2cwatto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 39
    Bacillus3 said:
    Joni you should have said "no" to ApplePark trees and doorlocks.
    And made for gradual progress in iPhone design - instead of 4 years of lamentation and now all sorts of complications & compromises as you didn't imagine a bezelless phone in a timely manner. You selfimage has become a blockade. You seem your own, pedantic parody
    You mean like Steve said no to these things?












    Ok, those are bad. Really bad. 

    Bu in the larger scheme of things... probably fairly trivial examples. 
  • Reply 30 of 39
     Steve was wrong quite often  - remember the cube ?
    You have no taste if you thought the Cube was not attractive. 

    I consider it it to be one of the most beautiful things Apple has ever designed. 
    edited October 2017 watto_cobraarie
  • Reply 31 of 39
    fallenjtfallenjt Posts: 3,971member
    Bacillus3 said:
    Joni you should have said "no" to ApplePark trees and doorlocks.
    And made for gradual progress in iPhone design - instead of 4 years of lamentation and now all sorts of complications & compromises as you didn't imagine a bezelless phone in a timely manner. You selfimage has become a blockade. You seem your own, pedantic parody
    10 posts? I’ll hold my response to your comment until you get 100.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 39
    fallenjtfallenjt Posts: 3,971member
    AI_lias said:
    Then I wish Ive personally felt passionately about, and said no to:
    >antenna lines shape in iphone 6 and 6s.
    >camera bump (use thicker battery to cover it up). Remember when he said that had the phone been thicker, less people would have used it, so the thin-ness was worth the battery life and camera bump... eyes rolling.
    >iOS 7 bad design choices
    >slippery aluminum phones (negates good aesthetics due to case being used), and rounded edges.
    Apple design was better when Steve was around, that's for sure. He was a good counter-balance to Ive.

    But you didn’t know these are also what other phones have but no complaint: camera bump in every phone out there, antenna bands in may android phones too. iOS 7 was a breakthrough design to modernize the look of the OS. It’s like to put contemporary or modern furnitures in modern condos instead of using rustic, vintage or traditional ones.
    btw, iMac G3 under Jobs was an eyesore design!
    edited October 2017 watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 3,882member
    Saying No instead of Yes is really hard for many people to do. Far too many people say Yes when they really mean No just for a quiet life.
    You can't have a real debate about anything without being able to say No!
    Moving forward in a design process involves a lot of Yes and No.

    Sometimes you do have to compromise. I suspect that the 'notch' is one of them. We shall see next year won't we?

    I think the "NO!" that Ives is talking about has more to do with personal & professional sacrifice -- dropping things that matter and focusing on things that are less appealing.   The classic example being sacrificing family for career -- but that is only one example.  It could also extend to things within a career.  
    ...  Did Ive's sacrifice personal & professional interests and goals to focus on the spaceship?   Probably.
  • Reply 34 of 39
    badmonkbadmonk Posts: 754member

    Focus, one thing Apple has been good at .
    The most profitable company in the world ,but all their products do not take up much space.
    Perhaps at some point in the future, Apple will invent the most useful product in human history. It will be nearly invisible and have a massive markup. AAPL stockholders will be overjoyed. :smile: 
    they already have.
  • Reply 35 of 39
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,452member
    Jony Ive has been needing to say no to some carbs and calories for quite a while now. As for the iPhone X. I suspect software will catch up to the notch much like how the Apple Watch software redesign changed several aspects of interaction with it. The notch area needs to stay black and permanently show info like battery or maybe a back software button when horizontal. 
    apple2c
  • Reply 36 of 39
    normmnormm Posts: 545member
    toysandme said:
    I would have said no to whoever removed the option of using color coding to highlight file names in the Finder. That job should never be left to a color blind designer. 

    Removed?  You can have specific tag colors available in the sidebar (Finder>Preferences>Tags).  I have a "tag" menu in my finder toolbar (if you don't have it, it's called "Edit Tags" in the customize toolbar menu).  Secondary-click on a file gives you the option to set the color.  The "File" menu also lets you set the color.  The Information Window for a file (command I) also lets you set it.  There are probably a bunch more ways---those are all I found with a few seconds of checking.
    edited October 2017
  • Reply 37 of 39
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 30,734member
    badmonk said:

    Focus, one thing Apple has been good at .
    The most profitable company in the world ,but all their products do not take up much space.
    Perhaps at some point in the future, Apple will invent the most useful product in human history. It will be nearly invisible and have a massive markup. AAPL stockholders will be overjoyed. :smile: 
    they already have.
    When can I place an order?
  • Reply 38 of 39
    sphericspheric Posts: 1,719member
    normm said:
    toysandme said:
    I would have said no to whoever removed the option of using color coding to highlight file names in the Finder. That job should never be left to a color blind designer. 

    Removed?  You can have specific tag colors available in the sidebar (Finder>Preferences>Tags).  I have a "tag" menu in my finder toolbar (if you don't have it, it's called "Edit Tags" in the customize toolbar menu).  Secondary-click on a file gives you the option to set the color.  The "File" menu also lets you set the color.  The Information Window for a file (command I) also lets you set it.  There are probably a bunch more ways---those are all I found with a few seconds of checking.
    The names are no longer coloured. You get a little coloured dot to the right of the name. 

    Arguably, the coloured names were harder to read. 
  • Reply 39 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 3,882member
    "Even if it's something that you think passionately about, focus means ignoring it and putting it to the side." - Jony Ive
    "I had the most wonderful teacher in Steve," he said. "And I have never -- I have never met anybody with his focus."

    For me, that is one more clue that Steve had Asperger's...
    That kind of focus is a hallmark of Asperger's -- almost a precondition. 

    That's not a slam at Steve.  It's to let him join fellow Aspergian geniuses like Jefferson, Einstein, Turing and many others... 
    haar
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