Tim Cook email claims Mac mini 'important part' of Apple's product matrix

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  • Reply 21 of 118

    This is a good example of an area where Apple does not get it. You have to update these things regularly to stay relevant (I mean the mini not Apple so chill out). They have done this on other products as well. Just my personal take it is BS and they need to do a better job.
    Yes, the only PC company to not only survive 40 years in business but actually thrive, doesn’t get it. Poor guys. They could really use some consultants from the rumor sites, huh. 
    Your response makes no sense at all.  My comment was specific to the mini not Apple as a whole.  Tell me how no update to the mini in 3 years is good for the consumer.
    dysamoriamuthuk_vanalingamkestral
  • Reply 22 of 118
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,471member
    MacPro said:
    I'd love my mac Mini a lot more if it was easier to swap out the internal HD and RAM ... jeez what a PITA on my late 2012 i5, 4GB RAM model.  I use it as a headless a server for Plex and Home sharing.  It is soooo (f****g)  slow I have to upgrade something.  I don't mean its serving operations, it works fine, I mean doing anything on it directly.  I can go for coffee while waiting for it to open System Preference for example.  What have folks found to be the best bang for the buck, SSD or RAM or both?
    Both would help, the SSD more so. I had a 2009 MacMini (older style case) that was my main machine for almost eight years because I swapped in an SSD and max ram.  Check out Other World Computing (aka macsalesDOTcom). Your mini has a 6G sata connector, better CPU, and the ability to take 16GB RAM... all good things. An SSD and some more RAM in that thing would make it feel like new.
    Thanks, I'm convinced.  I just tried booting from an external SSD and the difference in its responsiveness is amazing. I have a pile of 256 GB SSDs so I can do that right away.  Ok over to watch OWC's 'how to dismantle the little bugger' again ;)
    welshdogwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 118
    I have a 2010 model I’ve been using daily for web/email since 2010. Never had a problem with it and I’ve ran every beta version of OSX on it.  I did make it have 8 gigs of ram at some point and a solid state drive would be ideal in it.  
    leeeh2watto_cobra
  • Reply 24 of 118
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    lkrupp said:
    Money talks and bullshit walks. Time for Tim to start DOING something instead of making bullshit promises. 
    1) Did you not see the most amazing Apple event since the original iPhone last month?

    2) I don't think he made any promises. Seem to me that the biggest bellyaching over his reply is that he didn't make enough promises.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 25 of 118
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    cali said:
    It must be annoying for Tim to have every reply posted online. No wonder he keeps them short and vague.

    “Introducing Mac Mini with A12 processor”

    Would you buy it?

    But really with iPads and Apple TVs running A-processors and MacBooks/iMacs being more efficient I see Mac Minis becoming less important and becoming a smaller niche.
    Yes to an ARM-based Mac. No to an A-series chip in a Mac.
  • Reply 26 of 118
    MACPro, I use one of my MAC mini's for strictly a Music server running RoonServer.....Look up IFixit.com . there you will learn how to easily (if you have steady hands) to replace the HDD with a SSD....max out the RAM and your Mini will be smokin' fast! After you install the the RAM ...... If after you upgrade (add) more RAM to your Mac, and it’s not listed as being installed – first check to make sure the ram is “seated” properly in the memory slots. If it appears to be installed properly, reboot your Mac while holding down the command + option + p + r keys. Wait until you hear the startup “chime” twice, and then let go of the command + option + p + r keys. This is known as “zapping the PRAM”. When your Mac starts up again, relaunch the System Profiler, and now your ‘proper’ amount of RAM should be displayed (in the example below, 4GB).
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 118
    MacPro said:
    I'd love my mac Mini a lot more if it was easier to swap out the internal HD and RAM ... jeez what a PITA on my late 2012 i5, 4GB RAM model.  I use it as a headless a server for Plex and Home sharing.  It is soooo (f****g)  slow I have to upgrade something.  I don't mean its serving operations, it works fine, I mean doing anything on it directly.  I can go for coffee while waiting for it to open System Preference for example.  What have folks found to be the best bang for the buck, SSD or RAM or both?
    I had the same symptoms but only 2GB RAM, which I've now upgraded to 8GB (2 x 4GB) and it's an entirely new machine.  I think the bottleneck is RAM - when you add an external SSD the performance improvement you are seeing comes from using that as a swap - but the problem is that it's doing a LOT of swap and that's not great for the life of your SSD.  Fixing the root cause is best...

    If I had the time/money I'd also replace the ageing HDD with an SSD - but more for reliability than performance (that drive is seriously old for a consumer grade HDD), though I'm certain it'll help with performance too.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 118
    MacPro said:
    I'd love my mac Mini a lot more if it was easier to swap out the internal HD and RAM ... jeez what a PITA on my late 2012 i5, 4GB RAM model.  I use it as a headless a server for Plex and Home sharing.  It is soooo (f****g)  slow I have to upgrade something.  I don't mean its serving operations, it works fine, I mean doing anything on it directly.  I can go for coffee while waiting for it to open System Preference for example.  What have folks found to be the best bang for the buck, SSD or RAM or both?
    That's the exact same setup I'm running. Got it running a Plex server and macOS Server for the house. And yeah, it can be a slow beast sometimes. Have it running 6GB of RAM, which helped a little. I'm thinking maybe an SSD and maxed out RAM may be the best option. Also, surprisingly, it runs way faster on High Sierra than it ever did on Sierra. I was impressed to say the least.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 29 of 118
    analogjackanalogjack Posts: 1,073member
    The mini is a joke, I just sold my 2012 mini for more than I paid for it, granted it did have and extra 512SSD but they're cheap now. The reason is that it's about 50% faster at least than the latest top of the line 2014 model, due to it being quad core i7, and all the current models being dual core.

    Now that the iMac Pro is about to be release, they could repurpose the old cylindrical mac pro to be the new mac mini.
    edited October 2017 cgWerks
  • Reply 30 of 118
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    The mini is a joke, I just sold my 2012 mini for more than I paid for it, granted it did have and extra 512SSD but they're cheap now. The reason is that it's about 50% faster at least than the latest top of the line 2014 model, due to it being quad core i7, and all the current models being dual core.
    The biggest reason for it holding its resale value is soldered RAM in the 2014 model.
    tenthousandthingsllama
  • Reply 31 of 118
    I would love it if the Mac mini was the core of the new modular Mac Pro, so it could act as a product capable of expanding to the point where it equals or outclasses the future Mac Pro.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 118
    Agree with the comment above that Cook expects his response to be posted online, to the point where if it does not, then he responds to someone else until it does. This tactic comes straight from Jobs.

    I take this to mean we will see a mini update in December along with the launch of the HomePod. 

    Coffee Lake, USB-C, and Thunderbolt 3. Probably also some relationship with HomePod -- I'm not quite sure what that would be, but I think that's what they've been waiting for.

    This is the wrong thread for this, but agree with the idea that the mini is a bad choice for an ARM Mac -- that will be the MacBook Air when it comes. If MS comes out with long-life ARM notebooks soon like they say they will, then maybe sooner rather than later. If Apple doesn't assign the letter "M" to the processors for that, I will be severely disappointed.
    edited October 2017 watto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 118
    MacPro said:
    maltz said:
    Considering that my Mac Mini, made in 2012, is still by far the fastest Mac Mini ever made, one might argue that it's been over *5* years without an "update"...
    I have to think my configuration is too low end if that's the case, mine sucks.  I am more than happy to throw RAM and an SSD at it if there is hope.  
    Do that without delay!

    My 2012 quad-i7 Mini has 16GB with 1TB SSD as boot drive and 1 TB HDD for music. Note: they're not "Fusion"ed but separate volumes. A pair of 23" Cinema displays make for a very nice system.
    cecil4444watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 118
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,471member
    The mini is a joke, I just sold my 2012 mini for more than I paid for it, granted it did have and extra 512SSD but they're cheap now. The reason is that it's about 50% faster at least than the latest top of the line 2014 model, due to it being quad core i7, and all the current models being dual core.

    Now that the iMac Pro is about to be release, they could repurpose the old cylindrical mac pro to be the new mac mini.
    IMHO the 'old cylindrical Mac Pro' is still pretty phenomenal.  I'm just upgrading the RAM in my 6 core.  It is the best Mac I have ever owned and that dates back to a Mac Plus in 1984.  I've owned every Mac that ever existed just for perspective.  That said I am waiting for the next Mac Pro eagerly.
    dysamoriawatto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 118

    This is a good example of an area where Apple does not get it. You have to update these things regularly to stay relevant (I mean the mini not Apple so chill out). They have done this on other products as well. Just my personal take it is BS and they need to do a better job.
    Yes, the only PC company to not only survive 40 years in business but actually thrive, doesn’t get it. Poor guys. They could really use some consultants from the rumor sites, huh. 
    Your response makes no sense at all.  My comment was specific to the mini not Apple as a whole.  Tell me how no update to the mini in 3 years is good for the consumer.
    1... who cares about consumers? (see #3 below)
    2... how many mac mini consumers are we talking about...

    Let's just assume for a minute there are 5 Million mac Mini users out there WANTing to buy a new Mac Mini. and 10 Million Windows users saying "Hey, I'd move to a mac if I could just get a mac desktop system for less than $1200 (lowest price iMac), because I love my cheap monitor.

    15Million users:  $799 ASP (upgraded disk, top drawer Intel Chip set and graphics) 30% margin =  12B in revenue, 3.6B in profit 1st year.  $900/mill Profit per quarter.

    Let's say, of the 8.4B in costs, 1.2B (~15%) is spent on design, testing, test marketing, supply chain development, etc  all the stuff specific to this new version, and would have to be spent for every spin of the system (every new combination for CPU, Graphics, SSD for every release) to fit it within the $799 [or cheaper] ASP.  

    Assuming no significant design changes... just upgrading chips and maybe improving cooling, stability.... but you need to do all the design, testing, etc. all over again...

    Year 2...you sell, 10 million  (less switchers, less upgraders...useful life is 4 years) : 2.4Bprofit on that same 1.2B on non-recoverable spend

    Year 3...  you sell 5 million: 1.2B profit on 1.2B on unrecoverable spend (doubled your money)

    Year 4... 10 Million  2.4B  (all your year 1 people are upgrading.... except for those who are moving to a different platform or happy where they are at)

    year 5... 7 million 1.8B

    In 5 years... you've made.   11.4  Billion dollars.   Spent 6B...  
    (and likely consumed profits from your more profitable iMac and MacBook lines)

    Compare that to an option  "Say, Tim, I think if we spend 1.2Billion More a year on the iPhone in marketing  we'll sell 5% more phones every year! "
    Hmm, let's assume we are selling 200M units a year.  5% first year is 10Million units.
    Year 1:   10 Million more phones  ASP is the same $799  margin is 32% (a hair more... power of volume)..  2.6B first year profit
    Year 2:    11 Million more phones ... 2.7B
    Year 3:    12.1M phones = 2.85B
    Year 4:    13.2M phones = 3.0B
    Year 5:    14.3M phones = 3.16B

    Same 6B spent:  same ASP.  made 14.3B   2.9B more on the same spend....
    (Let alone the 'Halo' profits on ear pods, charging pads, app store purchases, apple pay use, apple watch sales...)

    3) which scenario would the stockholders [your bosses] appreciate more?


    edited October 2017
  • Reply 36 of 118
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,840member
    Soli said:
    lkrupp said:
    Money talks and bullshit walks. Time for Tim to start DOING something instead of making bullshit promises. 
    1) Did you not see the most amazing Apple event since the original iPhone last month?

    2) I don't think he made any promises. Seem to me that the biggest bellyaching over his reply is that he didn't make enough promises.
    What amazing Apple event? But, I agree that he didn't seem to make any promises... he just told us some baloney (that the Mini is important to them) along with a tidbit of useful info in that there's some hope it isn't EOL'd.

    The mini is a joke, I just sold my 2012 mini for more than I paid for it, granted it did have and extra 512SSD but they're cheap now. The reason is that it's about 50% faster at least than the latest top of the line 2014 model, due to it being quad core i7, and all the current models being dual core.

    Now that the iMac Pro is about to be release, they could repurpose the old cylindrical mac pro to be the new mac mini.
    Heck, all they'd have to do is stuff the latest CPU and some modern ports in, and I'd probably buy one (of either). This isn't exactly rocket-science. What I fear, is that Apple's working hard trying to 'innovate my a--' again. And, that's a bit scary when they don't seem to understand their target market any longer.


    Soli said:
    The biggest reason for it holding its resale value is soldered RAM in the 2014 model.
    Hmm, I don't know about that. I think it's it's exactly what analogjack said... that the new models are nerf'd in performance and higher priced (making them much less attractive). If the soldered RAM thing were true, nearly all current Mac sales would have tanked.

    MacPro said:
    IMHO the 'old cylindrical Mac Pro' is still pretty phenomenal.  I'm just upgrading the RAM in my 6 core.  It is the best Mac I have ever owned and that dates back to a Mac Plus in 1984.  I've owned every Mac that ever existed just for perspective.  That said I am waiting for the next Mac Pro eagerly.
    It's a great product, it just misread the target market somewhat. I'd love one, and at current prices, I'd buy one too if it weren't for the fact that I'd like TB3 ports on it.

    dysamoriawatto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 118
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,246member
    I have to say, not doing anything for the Mac mini makes it look like you don't give a crap.  What other company can do that and keep their doors open?  It should be getting updated every year!!! I'm going too assume Apple is selling the thing for the same price they did 3 years ago.  That's typical Apple also. After 3 years, it should be half off.

    dysamoriamike54
  • Reply 38 of 118
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,471member
    cgWerks said:
    Soli said:
    lkrupp said:
    Money talks and bullshit walks. Time for Tim to start DOING something instead of making bullshit promises. 
    1) Did you not see the most amazing Apple event since the original iPhone last month?

    2) I don't think he made any promises. Seem to me that the biggest bellyaching over his reply is that he didn't make enough promises.
    What amazing Apple event? But, I agree that he didn't seem to make any promises... he just told us some baloney (that the Mini is important to them) along with a tidbit of useful info in that there's some hope it isn't EOL'd.

    The mini is a joke, I just sold my 2012 mini for more than I paid for it, granted it did have and extra 512SSD but they're cheap now. The reason is that it's about 50% faster at least than the latest top of the line 2014 model, due to it being quad core i7, and all the current models being dual core.

    Now that the iMac Pro is about to be release, they could repurpose the old cylindrical mac pro to be the new mac mini.
    Heck, all they'd have to do is stuff the latest CPU and some modern ports in, and I'd probably buy one (of either). This isn't exactly rocket-science. What I fear, is that Apple's working hard trying to 'innovate my a--' again. And, that's a bit scary when they don't seem to understand their target market any longer.


    Soli said:
    The biggest reason for it holding its resale value is soldered RAM in the 2014 model.
    Hmm, I don't know about that. I think it's it's exactly what analogjack said... that the new models are nerf'd in performance and higher priced (making them much less attractive). If the soldered RAM thing were true, nearly all current Mac sales would have tanked.

    MacPro said:
    IMHO the 'old cylindrical Mac Pro' is still pretty phenomenal.  I'm just upgrading the RAM in my 6 core.  It is the best Mac I have ever owned and that dates back to a Mac Plus in 1984.  I've owned every Mac that ever existed just for perspective.  That said I am waiting for the next Mac Pro eagerly.
    It's a great product, it just misread the target market somewhat. I'd love one, and at current prices, I'd buy one too if it weren't for the fact that I'd like TB3 ports on it.

    Exactly, I feel port challenged for sure That said I parallel two TB2 Thunderbolt ports to a RAID 0 and get around 100 Gbps read using RAID 0 with 720 rpm HHD Barracudas and about 850 Gbps write .  However, I will sell mine get the next Mac Pro as soon as they are released.  You are right to wait for USBc/ TB3.   That aside I love mine to bits. I had 4 cheese graters (and every Mac Pro / tower ever made) and loved them too but the new concept of all external storage was a tremendous weight off my back!  lol.  I'm updating Boot Camp to Windows Creator Fall edition as I type I have to add,  the Apple late 2013 Mac Pro with its dual GPUs and Catalyst  runs Windows 10 better than most PCs out there, I cannot quantify that but I bet it is in the top 5% of PCs on the planet.
    edited October 2017 watto_cobra
  • Reply 39 of 118
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 2,840member
    MacPro said:
    Exactly, I feel port challenged for sure That said I parallel two TB2 Thunderbolt ports to a RAID 0 and get around 100 Gbps read using RAID 0 with 720 rpm HHD Barracudas and about 850 Gbps write .  However, I will sell mine get the next Mac Pro as soon as they are released.  You are right to wait for USB3/ TB3.   That aside I love mine to bits. I had 4 cheese graters (and every Mac Pro / tower ever made) and loved them too but the new concept of all external storage was a tremendous weight off my back!  lol.  I'm updating Boot Camp to Windows Creator Fall edition as I type I have to add,  the Apple late 2013 Mac Pro with its dual GPUs and Catalyst  runs Windows 10 better than most PCs out there, I cannot quantify that but I bet it is in the top 5% of PCs on the planet.
    Yea, storage is fine, it's the GPU I'm worried about. I guess given Mike's tests, even with TB2 I could add an eGPU, but I'd rather have TB3 on either a Mini or Pro if I get next. I had planned to move to a MBP, but given the new ones are %$#(, I'm probably going back to a desktop/lower-end laptop combo.
  • Reply 40 of 118
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,737moderator
    6502 said:
    Can't imagine how Apple treat a current product they don't love.
    Much like how parents treat their least favorite kids. Just don't talk about them often but give regular reassurance that they're still very much part of the family.

    These kind of statements are like the call centers:



    What they mean by that is:



    The Mac mini has its place as the most affordable Mac system but the entry model has this processor in it:

    https://ark.intel.com/products/75030/Intel-Core-i5-4260U-Processor-3M-Cache-up-to-2_70-GHz

    Intel won't be charging Apple the $315 listed there but look at the $499 price point, the parts that go into the base model can't allow for a very high gross margin even with a heavily discounted CPU, I reckon they'll be making <$100-150 net on each entry model. The only way they make money on these is by selling them with old parts for a long time and this has the upside for them of not eating into their iMac/laptop business.

    It's not as if updating them is going to be beneficial to Apple, there's not going to be a great surge in sales, it's a low volume product no matter what they do with it. All updating it means is reduced margins for them.

    For people who are waiting for a quad-core i7 with a decent GPU, the better route to go is an old Macbook Pro:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Apple-Macbook-Pro-15-Late-2013-i7-2-3-GHz-16GB-Ram-512-GB-SSD-GT750M-2GB-/202081305432

    Stick it in a neat stand and you get that slim headless tower you've always wanted and that model will be updated regularly:

    Stand for a Macbook Pro 15 inch retina by patmik

    Apple will just keep people waiting until it's no longer important to them, just like with the XServe, just like with the 17" MBP. The Mac mini will stay in the lineup as long as they want to hit the lower price point but there's little sense in waiting for years in the hope they'll deliver something when people could be using a decent alternative.

    The laptop setup is what Apple themselves use and you can see the tables full of laptops in one of their videos, they haven't hooked up Mac minis to the displays:



    Their sales are 80% laptops and out of the 20% desktops, it's less than 1m units per year between Mac mini and Mac Pro even when they get updated. The market for people who already have a display and keyboard/mouse and are looking for a new low powered computer is extremely small.

    When SSDs are cheap enough, I think the mini will transition to a fanless stick with soldered storage and memory, about half this size:

    12-inch Retina Apple Macbook 2015 Disassembly

    The power supply can go in the plug not much bigger than an iPhone plug. This is suitable for schools and developers who need to target iOS/Macs. If they did this now, an entry model with 128GB SSD, 4GB RAM could be made for about $599. They can still work as servers too, ethernet would be replaced with USB C e.g USB C on one end for power, one on the other for display, two on the side for peripherals/ethernet. It could be powered by some displays so no power cable required, people could put it in their pocket going between home/work. It can be used in situations much like the Raspberry Pi like on drones, robots, wearables. An ARM chip would allow them to put more storage in at competitive price points and run cooler but would lack software compatibility initially.
    watto_cobrarandominternetperson
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