What choice did Apple have unless they wanted to be booted and blocked like Google?
I think that's part of what the Senators are asking isn't it? What choice did Apple have. Perhaps it gives Apple the opportunity to better explain the pressures they're under from China and the demands being made of them in that country to the Senators.
Geesh, Congressmen and Senators ask questions all the time. Why does it rile folks up here when questions are posed to Apple? Big deal, they aren't threatening them with anything. They simply want to understand.
Not from the tone and language in the letter. I think those politicians should be a lot more concerned with privacy as it concerns U.S. citizens, the fight over net neutrality, online security and Russians and others populating U.S. sites with fake news. What exactly do they think they can change about China's policies? They still think the U.S. dominates the world. It doesn't and it has less of a role with every new idiocy from the current administration. Trump doesn't understand the world, so he's walking away from it. He's the kid who thinks you should never leave your own neighborhood and all of your loyalties should remain there.
There is no disconnect. Tim Cook did not say Apple enables people’s right to free speech in contradiction to the laws of the countries in which those people live.
On another point, if Apple never had those VPN apps in its Chinese App Store, would the senators be suggesting Apple should upload some, in contradiction to the laws of China?
Of course Apple shouldn't intentionally contravene Chinese laws, but I think you and a few others here are confused about this in the first place. VPN apps in China are not illegal AFAICT. The Chinese government also denies ordering any companies to block them, and that includes even state-owned telecoms. That does not mean that China did not strongly suggest it.
So while Mr. Cook properly says Apple follows the law in countries where they operate he did not say (AFAIK) that the VPN apps were removed as mandated by Chinese law. I think you and the others are simply making that connection because of the way Mr. Cook stated it. And while there is a temporary regulation (expires within a few months) that requires VPN apps be licensed Mr Cook did not go so far as to say all the VPN apps that were removed were strictly for that reason.
In any event VPN apps are not illegal in China.
But VPNs are being banned in China effective February. From Bloomberg 7/11/17;
"China is cracking down on virtual private networks, targeting the most popular way to access websites based outside the country and avoid restrictions. The government ordered the nation’s three state-run phone carriers to enforce a ban on VPNs for individuals and require companies operating on the mainland to register their use of leased web-access lines, people familiar with the matter have said. The new rules will go into effect by February."
* It makes sense that Apple's actions are in response to the upcoming ban by the Chinese government. (There is a link in the above quote to a 7/10/17 Bloomberg article on this topic.)
There is no disconnect. Tim Cook did not say Apple enables people’s right to free speech in contradiction to the laws of the countries in which those people live.
On another point, if Apple never had those VPN apps in its Chinese App Store, would the senators be suggesting Apple should upload some, in contradiction to the laws of China?
Of course Apple shouldn't intentionally contravene Chinese laws, but I think you and a few others here are confused about this in the first place. VPN apps in China are not illegal AFAICT. The Chinese government also denies ordering any companies to block them, and that includes even state-owned telecoms. That does not mean that China did not strongly suggest it.
So while Mr. Cook properly says Apple follows the law in countries where they operate he did not say (AFAIK) that the VPN apps were removed as mandated by Chinese law. I think you and the others are simply making that connection because of the way Mr. Cook stated it. And while there is a temporary regulation (expires within a few months) that requires VPN apps be licensed Mr Cook did not go so far as to say all the VPN apps that were removed were strictly for that reason.
In any event VPN apps are not illegal in China.
But VPNs are being banned in China effective February. From Bloomberg 7/11/17;
"China is cracking down on virtual private networks, targeting the most popular way to access websites based outside the country and avoid restrictions. The government ordered the nation’s three state-run phone carriers to enforce a ban on VPNs for individuals and require companies operating on the mainland to register their use of leased web-access lines, people familiar with the matter have said. The new rules will go into effect by February."
* It makes sense that Apple's actions are in response to the upcoming ban by the Chinese government. (There is a link in the above quote to a 7/10/17 Bloomberg article on this topic.)
There is no disconnect. Tim Cook did not say Apple enables people’s right to free speech in contradiction to the laws of the countries in which those people live.
On another point, if Apple never had those VPN apps in its Chinese App Store, would the senators be suggesting Apple should upload some, in contradiction to the laws of China?
Of course Apple shouldn't intentionally contravene Chinese laws, but I think you and a few others here are confused about this in the first place. VPN apps in China are not illegal AFAICT. The Chinese government also denies ordering any companies to block them, and that includes even state-owned telecoms. That does not mean that China did not strongly suggest it.
So while Mr. Cook properly says Apple follows the law in countries where they operate he did not say (AFAIK) that the VPN apps were removed as mandated by Chinese law. I think you and the others are simply making that connection because of the way Mr. Cook stated it. And while there is a temporary regulation (expires within a few months) that requires VPN apps be licensed Mr Cook did not go so far as to say all the VPN apps that were removed were strictly for that reason.
In any event VPN apps are not illegal in China.
But VPNs are being banned in China effective February. From Bloomberg 7/11/17;
"China is cracking down on virtual private networks, targeting the most popular way to access websites based outside the country and avoid restrictions. The government ordered the nation’s three state-run phone carriers to enforce a ban on VPNs for individuals and require companies operating on the mainland to register their use of leased web-access lines, people familiar with the matter have said. The new rules will go into effect by February."
* It makes sense that Apple's actions are in response to the upcoming ban by the Chinese government. (There is a link in the above quote to a 7/10/17 Bloomberg article on this topic.)
Here is another quote on the topic this time from Wired dated 8/4/11 which again states that Chinese government action is the cause of the VPN ban.
"China asked telecom companies to start blocking user access to VPNs that didn't pass government muster by next February...
Apple complied with a Chinese government order to remove VPNs from its Chinese iOS AppStore, and the company that runs Amazon's cloud services in China this week said it would no longer support VPN use. Even hotels around China that offered VPN services to foreign visitors are largely curtailing the practice."
* Your premise seems to be that the Chinese government is always truthful. I don't agree with that. Are these tech articles completely misinformed? Where is the evidence of that besides what the Chinese government has said. Also, why would Apple and Amazon be doing this re: VPN unless it was due to government action.
There is no disconnect. Tim Cook did not say Apple enables people’s right to free speech in contradiction to the laws of the countries in which those people live.
On another point, if Apple never had those VPN apps in its Chinese App Store, would the senators be suggesting Apple should upload some, in contradiction to the laws of China?
Of course Apple shouldn't intentionally contravene Chinese laws, but I think you and a few others here are confused about this in the first place. VPN apps in China are not illegal AFAICT. The Chinese government also denies ordering any companies to block them, and that includes even state-owned telecoms. That does not mean that China did not strongly suggest it.
So while Mr. Cook properly says Apple follows the law in countries where they operate he did not say (AFAIK) that the VPN apps were removed as mandated by Chinese law. I think you and the others are simply making that connection because of the way Mr. Cook stated it. And while there is a temporary regulation (expires within a few months) that requires VPN apps be licensed Mr Cook did not go so far as to say all the VPN apps that were removed were strictly for that reason.
In any event VPN apps are not illegal in China.
But VPNs are being banned in China effective February. From Bloomberg 7/11/17;
"China is cracking down on virtual private networks, targeting the most popular way to access websites based outside the country and avoid restrictions. The government ordered the nation’s three state-run phone carriers to enforce a ban on VPNs for individuals and require companies operating on the mainland to register their use of leased web-access lines, people familiar with the matter have said. The new rules will go into effect by February."
* It makes sense that Apple's actions are in response to the upcoming ban by the Chinese government.
There is no disconnect. Tim Cook did not say Apple enables people’s right to free speech in contradiction to the laws of the countries in which those people live.
On another point, if Apple never had those VPN apps in its Chinese App Store, would the senators be suggesting Apple should upload some, in contradiction to the laws of China?
Of course Apple shouldn't intentionally contravene Chinese laws, but I think you and a few others here are confused about this in the first place. VPN apps in China are not illegal AFAICT. The Chinese government also denies ordering any companies to block them, and that includes even state-owned telecoms. That does not mean that China did not strongly suggest it.
So while Mr. Cook properly says Apple follows the law in countries where they operate he did not say (AFAIK) that the VPN apps were removed as mandated by Chinese law. I think you and the others are simply making that connection because of the way Mr. Cook stated it. And while there is a temporary regulation (expires within a few months) that requires VPN apps be licensed Mr Cook did not go so far as to say all the VPN apps that were removed were strictly for that reason.
In any event VPN apps are not illegal in China.
I never stated that VPN apps are illegal in China. And Apple did not remove all VPN apps. Even if not explicitly stated, it seems pretty clear that the apps that were removed were likely the ones that weren’t yet licensed. And when something seems pretty clear, I take the path of least resistance and give the implicated party the benefit of the doubt until and unless new information surfaces that reveals new facts. Sheesh.
There is no disconnect. Tim Cook did not say Apple enables people’s right to free speech in contradiction to the laws of the countries in which those people live.
On another point, if Apple never had those VPN apps in its Chinese App Store, would the senators be suggesting Apple should upload some, in contradiction to the laws of China?
Of course Apple shouldn't intentionally contravene Chinese laws, but I think you and a few others here are confused about this in the first place. VPN apps in China are not illegal AFAICT. The Chinese government also denies ordering any companies to block them, and that includes even state-owned telecoms. That does not mean that China did not strongly suggest it.
So while Mr. Cook properly says Apple follows the law in countries where they operate he did not say (AFAIK) that the VPN apps were removed as mandated by Chinese law. I think you and the others are simply making that connection because of the way Mr. Cook stated it. And while there is a temporary regulation (expires within a few months) that requires VPN apps be licensed Mr Cook did not go so far as to say all the VPN apps that were removed were strictly for that reason.
In any event VPN apps are not illegal in China.
But VPNs are being banned in China effective February. From Bloomberg 7/11/17;
"China is cracking down on virtual private networks, targeting the most popular way to access websites based outside the country and avoid restrictions. The government ordered the nation’s three state-run phone carriers to enforce a ban on VPNs for individuals and require companies operating on the mainland to register their use of leased web-access lines, people familiar with the matter have said. The new rules will go into effect by February."
* It makes sense that Apple's actions are in response to the upcoming ban by the Chinese government.
Let me explain; First, you claim that the Chinese government is always a reliable source of information. That can be questioned. Second, you are not understanding that the statement by the Chinese government in July does not change the situation in China where VPNs are bing banned. I previously quoted from an article published in August, 8/4/17, by Wired titled; "The Attack On Global Privacy Leaves Few Places To Turn". Is Wired also wrong and only the Chinese government is right? I don't think so.
Here is another article from September 11, 2017 from ZDNet titled; "GlobalWebIndex has reported that China's VPN crackdown is affecting entrepreneurs, scientists and students".
From that article;
"At the beginning of last year, China upgraded its Great Firewall and began cracking down on the use of VPNs, aimed at fostering the "healthy development" of the internet in China, according to the local government...
In July this year, Apple pulled VPN apps from the App Store in China to comply with the government. The same month, the Chinese government ordered state-owned internet service providers, including China Mobile, China Unicom, and China Telecom, to completely block access to VPNs by February 2018."
* Are Bloomberg, Wired and ZDNet completely wrong? And only the Chinese government should be trusted on this issue? I don't think so. The Chinese government may say that they are licensing VPNs but how that is being implemented includes widespread bans.
"Clarification." Uh-huh. I didn't realize Apple was obligated to ignore local laws and regulations when doing business in foreign countries. The US Congress should deal with China's state censorship issue directly, not make private industry responsible for doing it on their behalf. If I were Cook, I'd have legal send them a form letter. These senators are trolling Tim Cook.
1) Apple following the rules of another country has bearing on US law.
2) Apple "censors" all the time, even in the US, which is why you won't find porn apps and other potentially offensive material on App Store as Apple sees fit or dictated by US law.
3) We have a POTUS that is threatening to pull broadcast licenses from news organizations that aren't constantly licking his asshole and they have an issue with China having laws that require VPN apps to be licensed by the state? Pathetic.
Yes, the President wants to ban a news media for 'faking news'. Do you know what these two senators say about it?
If boldface lies are an issue then, well…
To be fair, many news sites such as CNN and NBC have been busted dozens of times this year and had to retract their stories. With all this nonsense going around, I rarely look at the mainstream media these days. Can't believe half the crap they spew. These days I just stick to science news. Much more interesting anyways.
1) ews organizations always issue retractions for sources that turn out to be false, but to claim that this a conspiracy that that licenses should be revoked when they are unfavorable to the POTUS is not American.
2) Funny that you mention that NBC and CNN, but leave out Brietbart, InfoWars, and many others whose business models is to lie. I don't even include FOX News in that list, despite that recent retraction they just made which could've been easily vetted.
I don't agree with the POTUS on revoking licenses. That definitely is not an American way of thinking. As far as mentioning CNN and NBC, I just said those two since its something I saw more recently. As far as the other sites you mention, I don't doubt it. I just haven't been paying attention to the mainstream media as of late.
Maybe China should pen letters to gun manufacturers and ask them what they’re planning to do about the staggering number of firearms-related deaths in the US.
Or maybe China has enough sense to check its own back yard before opening its big fat publicity-seeking mouth.
No, China does not have enough sense.
----------------------- In China, the Xinhua news agency said the
violence in South Carolina "mirrors the US government's inaction on
rampant gun violence as well as growing racial hatred in the country.
"Unless US President Barack Obama's government
really reflects on his country's deep-rooted issues like racial
discrimination and social inequality and takes concrete actions on gun
control, such tragedy will hardly be prevented from happening again."
On China's Twitter-like Weibo microblogging
service, some users compared the US to lawless Somalia and said racial
discrimination was fuelling violence and high crime rates. Many
reflected the official view that gun ownership and violent crime were
byproducts of Western-style democratic freedoms that were not only
unsuited to China, but potentially disastrous. --------------------------
Ha! I’m impressed! China actually has a sense of humour. Something has gone seriously wrong in the US if the Chinese are feeling brave enough to draw attention to it.
The Chinese are mouthing off because the past year hasn’t been a great advert for democracy.
1) Apple following the rules of another country has bearing on US law.
2) Apple "censors" all the time, even in the US, which is why you won't find porn apps and other potentially offensive material on App Store as Apple sees fit or dictated by US law.
3) We have a POTUS that is threatening to pull broadcast licenses from news organizations that aren't constantly licking his asshole and they have an issue with China having laws that require VPN apps to be licensed by the state? Pathetic.
Yes, the President wants to ban a news media for 'faking news'. Do you know what these two senators say about it?
If boldface lies are an issue then, well…
To be fair, many news sites such as CNN and NBC have been busted dozens of times this year and had to retract their stories. With all this nonsense going around, I rarely look at the mainstream media these days. Can't believe half the crap they spew. These days I just stick to science news. Much more interesting anyways.
1) ews organizations always issue retractions for sources that turn out to be false, but to claim that this a conspiracy that that licenses should be revoked when they are unfavorable to the POTUS is not American.
2) Funny that you mention that NBC and CNN, but leave out Brietbart, InfoWars, and many others whose business models is to lie. I don't even include FOX News in that list, despite that recent retraction they just made which could've been easily vetted.
I don't agree with the POTUS on revoking licenses. That definitely is not an American way of thinking. As far as mentioning CNN and NBC, I just said those two since its something I saw more recently. As far as the other sites you mention, I don't doubt it. I just haven't been paying attention to the mainstream media as of late.
The President hasn't revoked anyone's licenses. That's not even part of his function. His venting does not equal actual action.
1) Apple following the rules of another country has bearing on US law.
2) Apple "censors" all the time, even in the US, which is why you won't find porn apps and other potentially offensive material on App Store as Apple sees fit or dictated by US law.
3) We have a POTUS that is threatening to pull broadcast licenses from news organizations that aren't constantly licking his asshole and they have an issue with China having laws that require VPN apps to be licensed by the state? Pathetic.
Yes, the President wants to ban a news media for 'faking news'. Do you know what these two senators say about it?
If boldface lies are an issue then, well…
To be fair, many news sites such as CNN and NBC have been busted dozens of times this year and had to retract their stories. With all this nonsense going around, I rarely look at the mainstream media these days. Can't believe half the crap they spew. These days I just stick to science news. Much more interesting anyways.
1) ews organizations always issue retractions for sources that turn out to be false, but to claim that this a conspiracy that that licenses should be revoked when they are unfavorable to the POTUS is not American.
2) Funny that you mention that NBC and CNN, but leave out Brietbart, InfoWars, and many others whose business models is to lie. I don't even include FOX News in that list, despite that recent retraction they just made which could've been easily vetted.
I don't agree with the POTUS on revoking licenses. That definitely is not an American way of thinking. As far as mentioning CNN and NBC, I just said those two since its something I saw more recently. As far as the other sites you mention, I don't doubt it. I just haven't been paying attention to the mainstream media as of late.
The President hasn't revoked anyone's licenses. That's not even part of his function. His venting does not equal actual action.
It sounds like you're defending the POTUS' incompetence because Ajit Pai shot down that absurd suggestion. #HeKnewWhatHeWasGettingInto
Tim Cook and Apple apologists are out in full force. Tim loves to preach to US citizens yet does business with some of the worst countries in the world.
ROFL.
If you dont do business with China, have fun getting what ever you are using but 200% more expensive, Apart from Food.
Steel, Concrete, Solar Panel, Battery, plastic, anything you name it.
I dont like China, let get this out first, but it is no way the worst country. In fact as much as I hate to admit it, they are marching in the right direction at an unseen pace towards world super power where most nation are standing still.
There is no disconnect. Tim Cook did not say Apple enables people’s right to free speech in contradiction to the laws of the countries in which those people live.
On another point, if Apple never had those VPN apps in its Chinese App Store, would the senators be suggesting Apple should upload some, in contradiction to the laws of China?
Of course Apple shouldn't intentionally contravene Chinese laws, but I think you and a few others here are confused about this in the first place. VPN apps in China are not illegal AFAICT. The Chinese government also denies ordering any companies to block them, and that includes even state-owned telecoms. That does not mean that China did not strongly suggest it.
So while Mr. Cook properly says Apple follows the law in countries where they operate he did not say (AFAIK) that the VPN apps were removed as mandated by Chinese law. I think you and the others are simply making that connection because of the way Mr. Cook stated it. And while there is a temporary regulation (expires within a few months) that requires VPN apps be licensed Mr Cook did not go so far as to say all the VPN apps that were removed were strictly for that reason.
In any event VPN apps are not illegal in China.
I never stated that VPN apps are illegal in China. And Apple did not remove all VPN apps. Even if not explicitly stated, it seems pretty clear that the apps that were removed were likely the ones that weren’t yet licensed. And when something seems pretty clear, I take the path of least resistance and give the implicated party the benefit of the doubt until and unless new information surfaces that reveals new facts. Sheesh.
No you did not, only strongly implying it was by comparing it to illegality in other countries.
Comments
From Bloomberg 7/11/17;
"China is cracking down on virtual private networks, targeting the most popular way to access websites based outside the country and avoid restrictions. The government ordered the nation’s three state-run phone carriers to enforce a ban on VPNs for individuals and require companies operating on the mainland to register their use of leased web-access lines, people familiar with the matter have said. The new rules will go into effect by February."
* It makes sense that Apple's actions are in response to the upcoming ban by the Chinese government.
(There is a link in the above quote to a 7/10/17 Bloomberg article on this topic.)
https://torrentfreak.com/china-denies-user-vpn-crackdown-blames-false-foreign-media-reports-170713/
"China asked telecom companies to start blocking user access to VPNs that didn't pass government muster by next February...
Apple complied with a Chinese government order to remove VPNs from its Chinese iOS AppStore, and the company that runs Amazon's cloud services in China this week said it would no longer support VPN use. Even hotels around China that offered VPN services to foreign visitors are largely curtailing the practice."
* Your premise seems to be that the Chinese government is always truthful. I don't agree with that.
Are these tech articles completely misinformed? Where is the evidence of that besides what the Chinese government has said.
Also, why would Apple and Amazon be doing this re: VPN unless it was due to government action.
First, you claim that the Chinese government is always a reliable source of information. That can be questioned.
Second, you are not understanding that the statement by the Chinese government in July does not change the situation in China where VPNs are bing banned.
I previously quoted from an article published in August, 8/4/17, by Wired titled; "The Attack On Global Privacy Leaves Few Places To Turn".
Is Wired also wrong and only the Chinese government is right? I don't think so.
Here is another article from September 11, 2017 from ZDNet titled; "GlobalWebIndex has reported that China's VPN crackdown is affecting entrepreneurs, scientists and students".
From that article;
"At the beginning of last year, China upgraded its Great Firewall and began cracking down on the use of VPNs, aimed at fostering the "healthy development" of the internet in China, according to the local government...
In July this year, Apple pulled VPN apps from the App Store in China to comply with the government. The same month, the Chinese government ordered state-owned internet service providers, including China Mobile, China Unicom, and China Telecom, to completely block access to VPNs by February 2018."
* Are Bloomberg, Wired and ZDNet completely wrong? And only the Chinese government should be trusted on this issue?
I don't think so.
The Chinese government may say that they are licensing VPNs but how that is being implemented includes widespread bans.
The Chinese are mouthing off because the past year hasn’t been a great advert for democracy.